PTS Update 19 - Feedback Thread for Werewolf Skill Line

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for the Werewolf skill line, and the changes to its mechanics, abilities, and passives. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

Ertthewolf

Looks pretty awesome so far except maybe the heal. Is it going to be halved in PvP like other heals? If so the cost needs adjusting as it's a nerf if running Pelinals Aptitude or hybrid set ups. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Bashev

Blood Rage: This ability now increases the timer of your Werewolf Transformation when you deal damage, rather than when you take damage. It adds 2/4 seconds to your timer with a 5 second cooldown.

Change it to:
Blood Rage: This ability now increases the timer of your Werewolf Transformation when you deal damage or you take damage. It adds 2/4 seconds to your timer with a 5 second cooldown.

Then it will be useful for offensive and defensive builds.

Ertthewolf

Bashev wrote: »

Blood Rage: This ability now increases the timer of your Werewolf Transformation when you deal damage, rather than when you take damage. It adds 2/4 seconds to your timer with a 5 second cooldown.

Change it to:
Blood Rage: This ability now increases the timer of your Werewolf Transformation when you deal damage or you take damage. It adds 2/4 seconds to your timer with a 5 second cooldown.

Then it will be useful for offensive and defensive builds.

Great idea. Currently it will still make it harder to maintain form during cc or large scale fights where you aren't actively engaged in combat. Guess we gotta rush in and die or lose form? Lol

Ahzek

Damage:

Lost:
10% weapon damage
Fear cast time ( was useful for Howl combos)

Gained:
Major Fracture
Synergy access

Should work out for a net gain in DPS, but less PvP burst cause of lost combo potential.


Healing Changes:
eliminated Pelinals synergy
bad healing on offensive builds (~20k HP)

Conclusion:
Made many current WW specialist builds unplayable
*** all over non CP PvP healing (low max HP)
Pretty bad for medium armor builds (which are already the weaker side)
Disappointed

Koolio

Ertthewolf wrote: »

Looks pretty awesome so far except maybe the heal. Is it going to be halved in PvP like other heals? If so the cost needs adjusting as it's a nerf if running Pelinals Aptitude or hybrid set ups. @ZOS_GinaBruno

This is need to know

Peekachu99

Bashev wrote: »

Blood Rage: This ability now increases the timer of your Werewolf Transformation when you deal damage, rather than when you take damage. It adds 2/4 seconds to your timer with a 5 second cooldown.

Change it to:
Blood Rage: This ability now increases the timer of your Werewolf Transformation when you deal damage or you take damage. It adds 2/4 seconds to your timer with a 4 second cooldown.

Then it will be useful for offensive and defensive builds.

This 100% (slightly tweaked). In PVP you are often locked down and beaten upon, preventing attacks. Also the timer doesn’t match the gain. In PVE the proposed timer is current worse than on Live.

Koolio

Ertthewolf wrote: »

Looks pretty awesome so far except maybe the heal. Is it going to be halved in PvP like other heals? If so the cost needs adjusting as it's a nerf if running Pelinals Aptitude or hybrid set ups. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Also does it still scale with Spell Crit or Weapon Crit?

Peekachu99

Ertthewolf wrote: »

Looks pretty awesome so far except maybe the heal. Is it going to be halved in PvP like other heals? If so the cost needs adjusting as it's a nerf if running Pelinals Aptitude or hybrid set ups. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Or you could just not run Pelinals? I mean it was a gimmicky workaround. You can achieve the same thing (almost) with Gossamer/ triglyphs on Live and it gives you a WW with Major Evasion lol

Put 7th Legion back on and GG. Synergizes better with TK anyway.

Qbiken

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Ertthewolf wrote: »

Looks pretty awesome so far except maybe the heal. Is it going to be halved in PvP like other heals? If so the cost needs adjusting as it's a nerf if running Pelinals Aptitude or hybrid set ups. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Or you could just not run Pelinals? I mean it was a gimmicky workaround. You can achieve the same thing (almost) with Gossamer on Live and it gives you a WW with Major Evasion lol

Put 7th Legion back on and GG. Synergizes better with TK anyway.

You literally have 0 sense of what a good WW-build is, saying that Pelinial was gimmick proves that.

Gossamer......lmao

And you don´t use 7th Legion for the heal, it´s garbage after the changes it received a few patches ago.

The change to Hircine´s rage is bad, end of discussion.

usmcjdking

As long as the heal can scale off weapon crit I think this is a gigantic QOL improvement for WW.

usmcjdking

Qbiken wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Ertthewolf wrote: »

Looks pretty awesome so far except maybe the heal. Is it going to be halved in PvP like other heals? If so the cost needs adjusting as it's a nerf if running Pelinals Aptitude or hybrid set ups. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Or you could just not run Pelinals? I mean it was a gimmicky workaround. You can achieve the same thing (almost) with Gossamer on Live and it gives you a WW with Major Evasion lol

Put 7th Legion back on and GG. Synergizes better with TK anyway.

You literally have 0 sense of what a good WW-build is, saying that Pelinial was gimmick proves that.

Gossamer......lmao

And you don´t use 7th Legion for the heal, it´s garbage after the changes it received a few patches ago.

The change to Hircine´s rage is bad, end of discussion.

Pelinal's WW IS gimmicky. Necessary, but gimmicky. It exists to do one thing - heal yourself appropriately. That makes it gimmicky. The idea that an entire class has to build around one skill in PVP (heal) to effectively be able to fight was absolutely ridiculous from a design perspective. Slotting a mag regen glyph and using Nocturnal's/Grace of Gloom/Bastion of the Hearland/Order of Diagna over Pelinal's is a monstrous EHP and health sustain increase.

Glass cannon medium armor Kena WWs got nerfed (which is fine) but the HA sustained damage WW got a sizeable buff with this change. A 30khp WW with a base 10k heal in PVP before investing anything into it is massive.

TheStealthDude

My initial thoughts are that the change to the heal will be a significant nerf to Werewolf survivability. I don't really think that a change was needed, as it was a skill that made werewolf building and theory crafting interesting. The change removes a whole option from the decision in how to build for survivability. Shouldn't we be adding more options, not taking them away?

Ertthewolf

Koolio wrote: »

Ertthewolf wrote: »

Looks pretty awesome so far except maybe the heal. Is it going to be halved in PvP like other heals? If so the cost needs adjusting as it's a nerf if running Pelinals Aptitude or hybrid set ups. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Also does it still scale with Spell Crit or Weapon Crit?

Spell, it's still magicka based.

Ertthewolf

Simple fix for heal would be similar to how Red Dragons Blood works, or give a HoT afterwards. Or just reduce cost?

Koolio

Ertthewolf wrote: »

Simple fix for heal would be similar to how Red Dragons Blood works, or give a HoT afterwards. Or just reduce cost?

Unless we know if it has battle spirit it is hard to tell

Tommy_The_Gun

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424230/pts-patch-notes-v4-1-0/p1
Hircine’s Bounty: This ability and its morphs now heal based on your Max Health; Hircine’s Bounty and Hircine’s Rage heal for 45% of your Max Health, while Hircine’s Fortitude heal for 60% of your Max Health.

So to clarify, I will have to have not only a lot of stamina & magicka as a werewolf (especially in PvP) and weapon & spell crit for crit healing - but now I will also have to have a lot of health too to have good self heal in PvP ? ? ?

That is way too much stats required for one build.

KurtAngle2

The Hircine's Bounty change has to be reverted somehow, it's actually worse for all existing Werewolves builds and new ones alike

Koolio

So battle spirit or no?

usmcjdking

I'm indifferent to the heal nerf. The rest of the rework is such a gigantic increase to werewolves' big issues that a small nerf was likely required. It's not that large of a nerf, opens up build combinations (i.e. deconning my *** pelinal's) and provides WW way better group utility.


6 man fear is gigantic.

Koolio

usmcjdking wrote: »

I'm indifferent to the heal nerf. The rest of the rework is such a gigantic increase to werewolves' big issues that a small nerf was likely required. It's not that large of a nerf, opens up build combinations (i.e. deconning my *** pelinal's) and provides WW way better group utility.


6 man fear is gigantic.

If it’s effected by battle spirit then it’s terrible now.

With Pelinial I have a 20k tooltip heal.

So 10k in pvp. With 27k health if affected then it drops to 6.1k.

Thraben

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Werewolf skill line, and the changes to its mechanics, abilities, and passives. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

1. General direction
You tried to give us some quality of life improvements based on the Werewolf class feedback. I won´t blame you for following the already problematic Werewolf "class" feedback, as you´ve done your best to follow it, and I appreciate you listenend to the summarized feedback.

2. The good
A lot: can rez, synergies etc.

3. The bad
a) Reduced range of Heavy Attacks; because
b) Slow removed from the Pack leader´s pets


4 The Ugly
a) Hircine´s Bounty:
It was ok to let people decide between MINOR brutality or a heal over time, but taking MAJOR Brutality from Rousing Roar is frankly wrong. With your suggested scaling the selfheal of the only viable Morph is 23% in PvP: We don´t even have enough Magicka to heal ourselves up with that skill!

b) Blood Rage: This is a case of Pve versus PvP balance. The PvE wolves will be happy, and the PvP wolves.... well, they won´t be staying wolves for long, if you can hardly run 200m without falling out of Werewolf form, because there aren´t enough NPCs in Cyro, and we can´t even reach enemy players while maintaining form in many cases.


5 How it should have been done:

That being said, I can live with all those nerfs, if I could wolf around with friends. I won´t even try it in the current PTS state.

SO:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]Werewolf

• Pack Leader (morph): This morph now reduces your damage by 25%, but adds following effects:
  
  Pounce: adds 5 seconds to the duration of the Werewolf Transformation of you and your allies
  Hircines´s Bounty: Heals you and your allies over time by 50% when applied after an enemy has been killed within 15meters.
  Roar: Applies Minor expedition to you and your allies
  Piercing Howl: Taunts the target
  Infectious Claws: Applies Minor lifesteal
  
  
  
  
  
• Call of the Pack
  Reduces the cost of maintaining werewolf form by 10%/20% for every werewolf in your group up to 12 werewolves instead of 4.
  
  

Peekachu99

usmcjdking wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Ertthewolf wrote: »

Looks pretty awesome so far except maybe the heal. Is it going to be halved in PvP like other heals? If so the cost needs adjusting as it's a nerf if running Pelinals Aptitude or hybrid set ups. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Or you could just not run Pelinals? I mean it was a gimmicky workaround. You can achieve the same thing (almost) with Gossamer on Live and it gives you a WW with Major Evasion lol

Put 7th Legion back on and GG. Synergizes better with TK anyway.

You literally have 0 sense of what a good WW-build is, saying that Pelinial was gimmick proves that.

Gossamer......lmao

And you don´t use 7th Legion for the heal, it´s garbage after the changes it received a few patches ago.

The change to Hircine´s rage is bad, end of discussion.

Pelinal's WW IS gimmicky. Necessary, but gimmicky. It exists to do one thing - heal yourself appropriately. That makes it gimmicky. The idea that an entire class has to build around one skill in PVP (heal) to effectively be able to fight was absolutely ridiculous from a design perspective. Slotting a mag regen glyph and using Nocturnal's/Grace of Gloom/Bastion of the Hearland/Order of Diagna over Pelinal's is a monstrous EHP and health sustain increase.

Glass cannon medium armor Kena WWs got nerfed (which is fine) but the HA sustained damage WW got a sizeable buff with this change. A 30khp WW with a base 10k heal in PVP before investing anything into it is massive.

Thank you for showing some insight instead of brainless vitriol. Pelinals is good for the heal and only the heal and this change makes it completely unnecessary.

usmcjdking

Koolio wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I'm indifferent to the heal nerf. The rest of the rework is such a gigantic increase to werewolves' big issues that a small nerf was likely required. It's not that large of a nerf, opens up build combinations (i.e. deconning my *** pelinal's) and provides WW way better group utility.


6 man fear is gigantic.

If it’s effected by battle spirit then it’s terrible now.

With Pelinial I have a 20k tooltip heal.

So 10k in pvp. With 27k health if affected then it drops to 6.1k.

Well, it means you should go Hircine's Fortitude now with 27k health it'll be a 9k heal. You lose 10% dmg buff for Hircine's Rage in favor of being able to use a completely different 5pc main that is non-pelinal's. I don't know how to impress upon you how this is actually a giant buff.

Koolio

usmcjdking wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I'm indifferent to the heal nerf. The rest of the rework is such a gigantic increase to werewolves' big issues that a small nerf was likely required. It's not that large of a nerf, opens up build combinations (i.e. deconning my *** pelinal's) and provides WW way better group utility.


6 man fear is gigantic.

If it’s effected by battle spirit then it’s terrible now.

With Pelinial I have a 20k tooltip heal.

So 10k in pvp. With 27k health if affected then it drops to 6.1k.

Well, it means you should go Hircine's Fortitude now with 27k health it'll be a 9k heal. You lose 10% dmg buff for Hircine's Rage in favor of being able to use a completely different 5pc main that is non-pelinal's. I don't know how to impress upon you how this is actually a giant buff.

So the build I’ve been using and playing with almost daily for over a year gets a 10% Damage Nerf and a 1k heal nerf in pvp. How is that a buff again? Or do I just take Pelinial off for plague doctor to get my heal back? Then lose magic and Stam Regen?

Peekachu99

TheStealthDude wrote: »

My initial thoughts are that the change to the heal will be a significant nerf to Werewolf survivability. I don't really think that a change was needed, as it was a skill that made werewolf building and theory crafting interesting. The change removes a whole option from the decision in how to build for survivability. Shouldn't we be adding more options, not taking them away?

It was completely uninteresting since you had 1/3 of your choices limited by one almost mandatory gear set. Interesting was finding combos that didn’t require it. Shackle, Gossamer (3 mag bonuses, one stam and 2/1regen, all weapon damage enchants) and Malueth/TK was interesting. Lol @ the dude that had a hissy fit over Gossamer because a WW with Major Evasion dodging crystal frags and poison arrows is both hilarious and effective, Reactive, Hist and a damage monster set just got a boost. 90% of all WW builds were not outside the box at all. There are many, many more combos that compliment WW now that the heal is untethered (but still limited by resource) from magika.

Peekachu99

Qbiken wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Ertthewolf wrote: »

Looks pretty awesome so far except maybe the heal. Is it going to be halved in PvP like other heals? If so the cost needs adjusting as it's a nerf if running Pelinals Aptitude or hybrid set ups. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Or you could just not run Pelinals? I mean it was a gimmicky workaround. You can achieve the same thing (almost) with Gossamer on Live and it gives you a WW with Major Evasion lol

Put 7th Legion back on and GG. Synergizes better with TK anyway.

You literally have 0 sense of what a good WW-build is, saying that Pelinial was gimmick proves that.

Gossamer......lmao

And you don´t use 7th Legion for the heal, it´s garbage after the changes it received a few patches ago.

The change to Hircine´s rage is bad, end of discussion.

For the cheap seats: you’d use it for the WEAPON DAMAGE OBVIOUSLY BUT THE HEALTH REGEN ALSO SYNERGIZES WELL WITH TROLL KING OKAY? The piddly heal every 2s I was not suggesting as any source of reliable healing.

Oh and now the added health with 7th is nice too, with these proposed changes.

TheStealthDude

The way I see it, Shacklebreaker is now essentially BiS for PvP werewolves now, where before we had another option (Pelinals). I don't see how this change opens up any new builds. It just takes away old ones.

usmcjdking

Koolio wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I'm indifferent to the heal nerf. The rest of the rework is such a gigantic increase to werewolves' big issues that a small nerf was likely required. It's not that large of a nerf, opens up build combinations (i.e. deconning my *** pelinal's) and provides WW way better group utility.


6 man fear is gigantic.

If it’s effected by battle spirit then it’s terrible now.

With Pelinial I have a 20k tooltip heal.

So 10k in pvp. With 27k health if affected then it drops to 6.1k.

Well, it means you should go Hircine's Fortitude now with 27k health it'll be a 9k heal. You lose 10% dmg buff for Hircine's Rage in favor of being able to use a completely different 5pc main that is non-pelinal's. I don't know how to impress upon you how this is actually a giant buff.

So the build I’ve been using and playing with almost daily for over a year gets a 10% Damage Nerf and a 1k heal nerf in pvp. How is that a buff again? Or do I just take Pelinial off for plague doctor to get my heal back? Then lose magic and Stam Regen?

Bruh, this isn't mental gymnastics.

Want more healing? Throw on order of Diagna. Bam, your heal becomes like 10% stronger than current on live in favor of having more HP a the expense of 2 regen lines.

Want more damage? Throw on Truth. You lose 12-13% and two regen lines healing in favor of having significantly more damage.

Want more sustain? Equip Willow's or Shackle.

Want more tank? Equip fortibrass or Trial by Fire.

The WW baseline has been increased significantly and untethers it from pelinal's. If you can't see the value on that then I have nothing else to say.

Sky_WK

Qbiken wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Ertthewolf wrote: »

Looks pretty awesome so far except maybe the heal. Is it going to be halved in PvP like other heals? If so the cost needs adjusting as it's a nerf if running Pelinals Aptitude or hybrid set ups. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Or you could just not run Pelinals? I mean it was a gimmicky workaround. You can achieve the same thing (almost) with Gossamer on Live and it gives you a WW with Major Evasion lol

Put 7th Legion back on and GG. Synergizes better with TK anyway.

You literally have 0 sense of what a good WW-build is, saying that Pelinial was gimmick proves that.

Gossamer......lmao

And you don´t use 7th Legion for the heal, it´s garbage after the changes it received a few patches ago.

The change to Hircine´s rage is bad, end of discussion.

He wasn't suggesting 7th for the heal, he was suggesting it for the health recovery line.

Aeschere3

Maybe I'm alone here, but I kinda (really) wanted some way for WW to reliably taunt, so that it would be better for PvE that way. There are probably mostly only tanky WWs in WW guilds right now, but if we could taunt it would open up a lot of possibilities.