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PTS Update 19 - Feedback Thread for Werewolf Skill Line

  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Doctordarkspawn

    Yeah, while this discussion is arguably an overarching theme for this thread itself, it doesn't really suit the content.

    I'll end with saying that balance is used to ascribe meaning to different play-styles. That MMO games generally have people wanting to play with other people, wanting to contribute something unique. Balance makes sure that regardless of play-style there is a place somewhere where you can gain meaning. That this results in fun. Philosophical *** yada-yada.
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @Doctordarkspawn

    Yeah, while this discussion is arguably an overarching theme for this thread itself, it doesn't really suit the content.

    I'll end with saying that balance is used to ascribe meaning to different play-styles. That MMO games generally have people wanting to play with other people, wanting to contribute something unique. Balance makes sure that regardless of play-style there is a place somewhere where you can gain meaning. That this results in fun. Philosophical *** yada-yada.

    If it did, we wouldn't be arguing. Balance is rarely used like this. If it was used to give each class a meaning and a specific playstyle that contributed -something- there wouldn't be -Magden-.

    Rest my case on that point. Your reasoning does not support the current result.

    Edit: I originally stated Magplar. Must have been late, because Magplar is -actually- usefull. Magden, is not.
    Edited by Doctordarkspawn on July 27, 2018 4:36PM
  • AmericanSpy
    AmericanSpy
    ✭✭✭
    If everyone could take the "balance" discussion to an alternate thread that would be great.

    Please only leave feedback for the developers about your reaction to current changes.

    There is also no need to attempt to discredit or "fix" another posters opinion on changes, even if it differs from your own. This will only bring unnecessary banter to a thread that will work best for those reviewing it officially if they can see everyone's direct opinion.

    EDIT: Thank you
    Edited by AmericanSpy on July 26, 2018 7:15PM
  • Aztlan
    Aztlan
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    OMG, drop it already.
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    To actually -give- feedback on werewolf (in the spirit of dropping it)

    Generally speaking alot of werewolves damage is set dependant. You use sets with bleeds and dots to make up for what your 'rotation' lacks. I think this is a fairly good change and werewolf might even become the de-facto spec for those who just wanna wolf out or do low-maint DPS. I'm okay with that. I think that needs to stay that way.
  • Chrlynsch
    Chrlynsch
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Suggestions
    Roar should work on bosses (the off balance and fracture parts)

    Brutal Pounce should add 10% weapon damage that Hircine's rage used to

    Make Direwolves soft taunt untaunted targets

    Range of light, heavy attacks, claws of _______ need their range increased, fighting other high speed targets is horrible, especially after the ranged CC was removed from howl.

    Not a fan of the new Werewolf human skin (should have been werewolf form skin)

    Good
    Heal will work with more builds/ human form will be more optimized

    Devour is awesome

    Instant fear is nice

    Rezzing is awesome

    Synergy activation awesome

    Bloodrage change is solid

    New animations are solid

    New beast personality is neat



    Great work overall thus far!

    Edit: Added claws of _______ to range increase request.
    Edited by Chrlynsch on July 26, 2018 7:39PM
    Caius
    Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
    PC NA
  • Skelfish
    Skelfish
    ✭✭✭
    The Major Fracture of Roar really needs to work on all types enemies even if they are immune to fear. As this is supposed to be the PVE oriented morph, it would really help out both solo and grouped werewolves that are not with human players who can provide Fracture debuffs for them.

    I agree that Brutal Pounce ought to have the unique 10% weapon buff to make it a more attractive choice than Feral. It's much easier to manage the timer, but Feral Pounce is still just too beneficial to choose over Brutal.

    Feral Pounce also needs to either have its minimum distance increased to 10 meters, or have the timer increase proc with the 5 meters it currently has.

    It would be neat if Hircine's Fortitude had a minor group buff to go along with the increased heal. Something like grant nearby allies Minor Protection for 5 seconds, or Minor Endurance for 15 seconds, or even heal werewolf allies for 10% of their max health.
    This would further encourage werewolf groups to use both morphs instead of everyone going for Hircine's Rage by default. Hellooo Pack Leader "healer."

    Please have Hunt Leader set work with Pack Leader wolf pets. By all accounts it should, but there seems to be some discrepancy on whether or not it actually does.

    Heavy attack still feels clunky. Could benefit from increased range or a small speed up to its animation to make it more equivalent to human weapons styles (like dual wield or 2H).

    Devour is super smooth now and works great. Nice perk having it heal as well.

    The heal of Hircine's Rage in general is very comparable or even better than current live Summerset. I was skeptical at first, but after some testing with food and some sets it's less work to get health needed for a 9k heal than it is to get spell damage or magicka for a current live equivalent. This opens up werewolf a lot for general stamina builds where all they'd need is a health enchant or a couple of tri-glyphs to bump up their health.
    Edited by Skelfish on August 6, 2018 3:59PM
  • Amdar_Godkiller
    Amdar_Godkiller
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    @Doctordarkspawn

    Yeah, while this discussion is arguably an overarching theme for this thread itself, it doesn't really suit the content.

    I'll end with saying that balance is used to ascribe meaning to different play-styles. That MMO games generally have people wanting to play with other people, wanting to contribute something unique. Balance makes sure that regardless of play-style there is a place somewhere where you can gain meaning. That this results in fun. Philosophical *** yada-yada.

    If it did, we wouldn't be arguing. Balance is rarely used like this. If it was used to give each class a meaning and a specific playstyle that contributed -something- there wouldn't be -Magden-.

    Rest my case on that point. Your reasoning does not support the current result.

    Edit: I originally stated Magplar. Must have been late, because Magplar is -actually- usefull. Magden, is not.

    Magden is OP in PVP and actually does have a unique playstyle. Magplar is second worst, only class that's worse off is stam dk.
  • acw37162
    acw37162
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    I genuinely don’t understand why in the Werwolf overhaul DLC Wereolf dint get a useable low cost ultimate in werewolf form.

    That either offered some type of group utility buffs - Pack Leader Morph

    Or

    Solo damage buffs - Beserker Morph

    With both ultimates stopping or slowing the werewolf timer.

    This would have opened up Ulti gen sets for use in Werewolf form one of which you guys named werewolf hide.
  • AmericanSpy
    AmericanSpy
    ✭✭✭
    Well, update 19 is about to go live and it looks like this thread was a complete waste. Why ask for feedback on changes and then completely ignore them? WW changes are just copy pasted from first PTS patch notes, such a sad state of development in this game.
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, update 19 is about to go live and it looks like this thread was a complete waste. Why ask for feedback on changes and then completely ignore them? WW changes are just copy pasted from first PTS patch notes, such a sad state of development in this game.

    The changes that were presented during the first PTS cycle was good though and addressed the majority of the "pain-points" werewolf had. So I don´t really get why people are disappointed with the updates werewolfs got....
  • Aznox
    Aznox
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree that the changes operated to Werewolf were intelligent and well-thought, even if i disagreed with some of the decisions that were made.
    Aznox
    PC EU
    Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
    I live in Battlegrounds
    Theorycrafting enthusiast
    Official Cheese Lord
    CP1500+ club
  • Mr_Wolfe
    Mr_Wolfe
    ✭✭✭
    Honestly, I'm beginning to wonder if some of you guys are fishing for jobs with all this undeserved praise. You already know my thoughts on the werewolf changes, ZOS blatantly ignoring feedback duiring the PTS cycle is just icing on the cake.

    I'm going to be taking a break for a while. When Wolfhunter comes out on xbox I'll give it a spin and see if the changes work better in practice than in therory, but right now you've got a lot of werewolf players dreading this update instead of anticipating it.
  • AuldWolf
    AuldWolf
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can feel the unavoidable gravity of this thread pulling me back, it's a curse. And not a fun one like lycanthropy.

    The notion that game "balance" (which is an innate oxymoron) is automatically above fun is stuff and nonsense, the further fallacy that a game requires it in order for both parties to be equally competitive is more like a repeated mantra than anything that has any logic qualifying it.

    Now, I know how reactionary situations can be -- people are impulsive, they jump in without first thinking about it. Here's a question: What even IS "balance," in this context? Here's another question: What has "balance" done for you?

    There are plenty of competitive fighting games out there that are devoid of what some here would think of as "balance," and yet they're still played competitively, the people playing them have fun, and no one is on this manipulatively misleading "losing end of the stick."

    Look at Killer Instinct. It has a competitive league, but the "balance" there is laughable. Instead, there are simply tiers of fighters that are on equal tiers because they have good counters to one another -- which is actually a very important word that we'll come back to. Do you think the Smash Bros. games are balanced? How about Pokken tournament? Or Pokémon itself?

    Yes, Pokémon did try balancing in the past, but every attempt at it was Universally despised until Nintendo figured out what good one-on-one fighting game developers have known all along. They took that knowledge and used it, a completely different approach to balancing that serves everyone. A form of this balance so valued yet indentured to fun, with fun as the primary.

    How? Counters.

    I said that word was important.

    The problem here is that -- as I've mentioned before, which is also touched upon in the MMO post-mortem -- is that this game badly wants to be Everquest Lite. My quetion, which is an entirely valid one that deserves an answer: Why? Why would anyone -- in their right mind -- want that? Why would anyone want the grind, the carrot-on-a-stick that never delivers, and the constant, endless destruction of playstayles which means that unless you're a hardcore min-maxer you won't be able to settle into anything and you'll be left feeling unwelcome and unwanted.

    Let's not beat around the bush. Except for WoW -- largely an anomaly, brought about by a company that's worryingly good at socially engineering neurotic extraverts to do just about anything -- MMOs don't have great numbers. ESO doesn't have great numbers. The amount of people playing this game is evenly matched by an indie game made by one person (Stardew Valley). That's not a fantastic look, is it? This is the reason that ZOS is so desperate for money, the amount of content they're putting out and the money they're bringing in are catastrophically unaligned. They know that. They're already desperate.

    That's why I brought up adding cosmetics to werewolves in order to have yet another avenue with which to make money, but I digress. That's not at all the point, here. Back to balance!

    So, counters. With a system of counters you don't touch the 'overpowered' fellah, instead you ask "What would be a good, fair counter to what makes them so overpowered that wouldn't make things too difficult for them or mess up the game for anyone else?"

    And you do that.

    You add counters to bosses, and to PvP players, which are designed to specifically add resistance to what makes that person OP. For example, you could add counters to Magden which work against MagNBs or MagSorcs, making MagDen PvP relevant in the process. Then you could add abilities to enemies which MagDens would do a little better against than other classes -- not that it'd stop other classes from actually fighting this enemy, but it'd be a little easier for them.

    I mean, good grief, even Skylanders gets this right.

    So why the obsession with juggling numbers in a way that destroys playstyles? Everquest Lite. This "balancing" isn't necessary at all. And fun absolutely should not be beholden to it. It's been ruining game design since as long as I can remember. Do you think it's fun for people to have to rebuild, redesign, reconsider, and relearn their character every other patch?

    It might be for hardcore min/maxers, sure, but what about the people who get really attached to a character from a roleplay perspective? Ah, you see, without any manipulation, here we have an instance of people who're losing out, people who just aren't allowed to have fun. Their fun is mitigated by this "balance," which serves only a small subset of people.

    What I would want would be for ESO to be a fun game for all people. Switch balancing over to a system of counters and away from this Everquest Lite junk; Allow delves to be played solo or publically; Allow dungeons to scale up to however many people are entering (whether it's one or a bloody hundred); Have crafting nodes be instanced to the player; Et cetera.

    People would argue against that, but as I pointed out it's only self-serving, selfish subsets of people whom these systems serve. I'll explain.

    Balance -> Counters: This would open up the game to a greater number of people and wouldn't result in RPers having their characters destroyed so often. What it would also do is create a more even playing field -- whereas before due to the Everquest Lite approach, min-maxers could theorycraft their way to being the best, at the expense of everyone else, they'd now be the same as the rest of the players and no longer special snowflakes.

    Forced-grouping -> Scaling: This would mean that all content would be available to all players. Not just the players who regularly play together in a group of X size. So if, for example, a family of three (two partners and a kid) regularly played together, they'd be able to get the rewards from a dungeon the same as anyone else. Whom does it serve to not have it that way? Special snowflakes who see a way to gain exclusivity and want to cling to it.

    Instanced Nodes: This would always guarantee node availability to everyone. No one would have to hide out in zones that aren't that populated and hope that no one else drops by (this is good for a social game???), people wouldn't have to feel as though they had to compete for nodes. It would create af friendlier atmosphere. Seems like it'd be better for everyone, right? Well, except for those who want to hoard resources to sell via their trading guilds so that they can have an excess of money and feel like special snowflakes due to exclusivity.

    You might be sensing a repeating pattern, here.

    This reliance on special snowflakes originally arose from subscription games. It was a carrot-on-a-stick system to give them a means to feel superior. If you could trick everyone into striving and struggling for this, then that was one way to sustain your subscription numbers. ESO has costume dyes, the crafting bag, the cash shop, and many other means that make this speical snowflake pandering superfluous at best, and destructive at worst.

    Why is it there? As always, MMO developers can't seem to pry themselves away from Everquest Lite. People turn up because of hooks (for me, it was the availability of playable werewolves), hang around for a bit because some part of it is fun (for me, it was collecting books and experiencing the story, ESO has some solid writing), and then stay after that due to manipuative tactics. Those manipulative tactics will only last so long before players catch on and get fed up, though.

    Of course, the special snowflakes will support the manipulative tactics of the archaic Everquest Lite model as it supports them in their quest to glean some feeling of superiority over others (I could never understand that, I don't get some people). So that's why you'd have anyone arguing for the Everquest Lite model of "balance," instead of opting instead for a system of balance via counters which keeps things fun and interesting.

    With a balance system based on counters you're not aggravating power creep (unless you're doing it wrong), and you're not destroying people's playstyles by taking tools and sustainability away from them. To the contrary, you're giving everyone new tools to deal with the problems that arise, this is fun!

    This leads to more variety, and more options. It's more difficult than jiggling the numbers around but, like I said, where does that get us? I'd ask again: What has this "balance" ever done for you? Do you know? Are you aware? Did it make you OP for a patch before driving you into the dirt with the next? Who does this "balance" really serve?

    Like I said, even Skylanders can get this right. It's depressing that MMOs are stuck on the broken Everquest Lite model because all of the good design choices, the brilliant writing, and all of the other factors that would otherwise result in a fantastic, brilliant, memorable game are thrown under the bus, sacrificed at the ignoble, tainted altar of "balance."

    Meanwhile, I'm playing Stardew Valley, and also Ōkami again on my Switch, which also doesn't give a toss about "balance."

    (Nor does it take my wolf funtimes away, for that matter.)

    To simplify, if anyone didn't get it: You can um and ah, fret and twiddle over how to best nerf Rune Cage by tampering with its numbers, ooooor you could give another class an ability to directly ha0mper it in some way that greatly limits its efficacy.

    This way, Rune Cage can still be fun but it can be shut down by a skilled player of another class who knows what they're doing. So it can still have what it does, but it can also be shut down. This adds more layers of fun competition to PvP. There's a reason this existed with the holy trinity, even; You take out the healer, first, as they're the one that can make your life the most difficult. In a system of counters, you'd also want to prioritise the person who can counter you.

    Instead of saying "Nerf Rune Cage!" you could be saying "Give a class a solid counter to Rune Cage!"

    And this also reduces community toxicity because if you explain to Rune Cage users that their skill isn't fun for those it's used on, and that there should be a counter to that so that people have a way out without impacting them directly with a nerf? I'm sure that would sound more amicable and reasonable.

    Footnote: This is relevant to werewolf, too. It's because of this obsession with "balance" that comes with the Everquest Lite ideology we can't have a permanent werewolf form. Since fun is a third-class citizen versus "balance" (whatever the heck "balance" actually means in this context beyond 'run some numbers through a random number generator to ruin everyone's day').

    Another Footnote/Disclaimer: For anyone wondering why I'm still posting here when I've obviously already quit? It's not for the fun of it, and trolls don't put in this kind of effort. It's because -- for whatever bloody reason, perhaps even just being given werewolf and I'm shallow -- I care about this game. I care about ZOS. I love ZOS's writers. I like what they've made. And to see it continually ruined by constantly dumping fun to make way for "balance" and thus ruining this glorious thing they've made is genuinely galling to me. I give a damn, basically. There are better ways to do all of this!

    I care about ESO like I cared about Champions Online. Champions Online couldn't be saved despite the best efforts of those who tried to tell Cryptic what they were doing wrong. CO died. ESO is well on that track. It's sustaining itself, but only barely, and it most certainly isn't thriving. Let's not be delusional, eh? It could thrive, though. It bloody well could. Honestly, I might be too late to save ESO, too. I can perhaps hope, at least, that a developer of an upcoming game might just be listening in and might learn something.

    I'm tired of games I like commiting the most foolish forms of seppuku. It feels like how Brian must've felt watching the Judean People's Front do their thing (for anyone who gets that).

    And Brian's reactions, his very words, are what I want to say.

    Edit: It just occurred to me that there's another way to say this. MMO developers need to comprise their balancing teams of people who've played competitive card games. The similarities are immense, and systems of countering rather than this endless Everquest Lite-driven dance of buffing and nerfing would be so, so much better for everyone. I will stand by that, no matter what.

    Edit 2: So, basically, am I suggesting that ESO should be more like something like Yu-Gi-Oh? I say this as I worry someone else will bring it up, facetiously. Well, yes, actually. A system of counters would be very similar to how some of that game works. However, it's a system of counters with movement, positional awareness, and other skills being necessary. Give that a chance. Think about it for a bit.

    Edit 3: You could even use existing skills to deal with it. What if, say, a certain heal that seems useless right now could also reduce the damage/time held of Rune Cage?
    Edited by AuldWolf on August 20, 2018 7:02AM
  • Chrlynsch
    Chrlynsch
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    AuldWolf wrote: »
    I can feel the unavoidable gravity of this thread pulling me back, it's a curse. And not a fun one like lycanthropy.

    The notion that game "balance" (which is an innate oxymoron) is automatically above fun is stuff and nonsense, the further fallacy that a game requires it in order for both parties to be equally competitive is more like a repeated mantra than anything that has any logic qualifying it.

    Now, I know how reactionary situations can be -- people are impulsive, they jump in without first thinking about it. Here's a question: What even IS "balance," in this context? Here's another question: What has "balance" done for you?

    There are plenty of competitive fighting games out there that are devoid of what some here would think of as "balance," and yet they're still played competitively, the people playing them have fun, and no one is on this manipulatively misleading "losing end of the stick."

    Look at Killer Instinct. It has a competitive league, but the "balance" there is laughable. Instead, there are simply tiers of fighters that are on equal tiers because they have good counters to one another -- which is actually a very important word that we'll come back to. Do you think the Smash Bros. games are balanced? How about Pokken tournament? Or Pokémon itself?

    Yes, Pokémon did try balancing in the past, but every attempt at it was Universally despised until Nintendo figured out what good one-on-one fighting game developers have known all along. They took that knowledge and used it, a completely different approach to balancing that serves everyone. A form of this balance so valued yet indentured to fun, with fun as the primary.

    How? Counters.

    I said that word was important.

    The problem here is that -- as I've mentioned before, which is also touched upon in the MMO post-mortem -- is that this game badly wants to be Everquest Lite. My quetion, which is an entirely valid one that deserves an answer: Why? Why would anyone -- in their right mind -- want that? Why would anyone want the grind, the carrot-on-a-stick that never delivers, and the constant, endless destruction of playstayles which means that unless you're a hardcore min-maxer you won't be able to settle into anything and you'll be left feeling unwelcome and unwanted.

    Let's not beat around the bush. Except for WoW -- largely an anomaly, brought about by a company that's worryingly good at socially engineering neurotic extraverts to do just about anything -- MMOs don't have great numbers. ESO doesn't have great numbers. The amount of people playing this game is evenly matched by an indie game made by one person (Stardew Valley). That's not a fantastic look, is it? This is the reason that ZOS is so desperate for money, the amount of content they're putting out and the money they're bringing in are catastrophically unaligned. They know that. They're already desperate.

    That's why I brought up adding cosmetics to werewolves in order to have yet another avenue with which to make money, but I digress. That's not at all the point, here. Back to balance!

    So, counters. With a system of counters you don't touch the 'overpowered' fellah, instead you ask "What would be a good, fair counter to what makes them so overpowered that wouldn't make things too difficult for them or mess up the game for anyone else?"

    And you do that.

    You add counters to bosses, and to PvP players, which are designed to specifically add resistance to what makes that person OP. For example, you could add counters to Magden which work against MagNBs or MagSorcs, making MagDen PvP relevant in the process. Then you could add abilities to enemies which MagDens would do a little better against than other classes -- not that it'd stop other classes from actually fighting this enemy, but it'd be a little easier for them.

    I mean, good grief, even Skylanders gets this right.

    So why the obsession with juggling numbers in a way that destroys playstyles? Everquest Lite. This "balancing" isn't necessary at all. And fun absolutely should not be beholden to it. It's been ruining game design since as long as I can remember. Do you think it's fun for people to have to rebuild, redesign, reconsider, and relearn their character every other patch?

    It might be for hardcore min/maxers, sure, but what about the people who get really attached to a character from a roleplay perspective? Ah, you see, without any manipulation, here we have an instance of people who're losing out, people who just aren't allowed to have fun. Their fun is mitigated by this "balance," which serves only a small subset of people.

    What I would want would be for ESO to be a fun game for all people. Switch balancing over to a system of counters and away from this Everquest Lite junk; Allow delves to be played solo or publically; Allow dungeons to scale up to however many people are entering (whether it's one or a bloody hundred); Have crafting nodes be instanced to the player; Et cetera.

    People would argue against that, but as I pointed out it's only self-serving, selfish subsets of people whom these systems serve. I'll explain.

    Balance -> Counters: This would open up the game to a greater number of people and wouldn't result in RPers having their characters destroyed so often. What it would also do is create a more even playing field -- whereas before due to the Everquest Lite approach, min-maxers could theorycraft their way to being the best, at the expense of everyone else, they'd now be the same as the rest of the players and no longer special snowflakes.

    Forced-grouping -> Scaling: This would mean that all content would be available to all players. Not just the players who regularly play together in a group of X size. So if, for example, a family of three (two partners and a kid) regularly played together, they'd be able to get the rewards from a dungeon the same as anyone else. Whom does it serve to not have it that way? Special snowflakes who see a way to gain exclusivity and want to cling to it.

    Instanced Nodes: This would always guarantee node availability to everyone. No one would have to hide out in zones that aren't that populated and hope that no one else drops by (this is good for a social game???), people wouldn't have to feel as though they had to compete for nodes. It would create af friendlier atmosphere. Seems like it'd be better for everyone, right? Well, except for those who want to hoard resources to sell via their trading guilds so that they can have an excess of money and feel like special snowflakes due to exclusivity.

    You might be sensing a repeating pattern, here.

    This reliance on special snowflakes originally arose from subscription games. It was a carrot-on-a-stick system to give them a means to feel superior. If you could trick everyone into striving and struggling for this, then that was one way to sustain your subscription numbers. ESO has costume dyes, the crafting bag, the cash shop, and many other means that make this speical snowflake pandering superfluous at best, and destructive at worst.

    Why is it there? As always, MMO developers can't seem to pry themselves away from Everquest Lite. People turn up because of hooks (for me, it was the availability of playable werewolves), hang around for a bit because some part of it is fun (for me, it was collecting books and experiencing the story, ESO has some solid writing), and then stay after that due to manipuative tactics. Those manipulative tactics will only last so long before players catch on and get fed up, though.

    Of course, the special snowflakes will support the manipulative tactics of the archaic Everquest Lite model as it supports them in their quest to glean some feeling of superiority over others (I could never understand that, I don't get some people). So that's why you'd have anyone arguing for the Everquest Lite model of "balance," instead of opting instead for a system of balance via counters which keeps things fun and interesting.

    With a balance system based on counters you're not aggravating power creep (unless you're doing it wrong), and you're not destroying people's playstyles by taking tools and sustainability away from them. To the contrary, you're giving everyone new tools to deal with the problems that arise, this is fun!

    This leads to more variety, and more options. It's more difficult than jiggling the numbers around but, like I said, where does that get us? I'd ask again: What has this "balance" ever done for you? Do you know? Are you aware? Did it make you OP for a patch before driving you into the dirt with the next? Who does this "balance" really serve?

    Like I said, even Skylanders can get this right. It's depressing that MMOs are stuck on the broken Everquest Lite model because all of the good design choices, the brilliant writing, and all of the other factors that would otherwise result in a fantastic, brilliant, memorable game are thrown under the bus, sacrificed at the ignoble, tainted altar of "balance."

    Meanwhile, I'm playing Stardew Valley, and also Ōkami again on my Switch, which also doesn't give a toss about "balance."

    (Nor does it take my wolf funtimes away, for that matter.)

    To simplify, if anyone didn't get it: You can um and ah, fret and twiddle over how to best nerf Rune Cage by tampering with its numbers, ooooor you could give another class an ability to directly ha0mper it in some way that greatly limits its efficacy.

    This way, Rune Cage can still be fun but it can be shut down by a skilled player of another class who knows what they're doing. So it can still have what it does, but it can also be shut down. This adds more layers of fun competition to PvP. There's a reason this existed with the holy trinity, even; You take out the healer, first, as they're the one that can make your life the most difficult. In a system of counters, you'd also want to prioritise the person who can counter you.

    Instead of saying "Nerf Rune Cage!" you could be saying "Give a class a solid counter to Rune Cage!"

    And this also reduces community toxicity because if you explain to Rune Cage users that their skill isn't fun for those it's used on, and that there should be a counter to that so that people have a way out without impacting them directly with a nerf? I'm sure that would sound more amicable and reasonable.

    Footnote: This is relevant to werewolf, too. It's because of this obsession with "balance" that comes with the Everquest Lite ideology we can't have a permanent werewolf form. Since fun is a third-class citizen versus "balance" (whatever the heck "balance" actually means in this context beyond 'run some numbers through a random number generator to ruin everyone's day').

    Another Footnote/Disclaimer: For anyone wondering why I'm still posting here when I've obviously already quit? It's not for the fun of it, and trolls don't put in this kind of effort. It's because -- for whatever bloody reason, perhaps even just being given werewolf and I'm shallow -- I care about this game. I care about ZOS. I love ZOS's writers. I like what they've made. And to see it continually ruined by constantly dumping fun to make way for "balance" and thus ruining this glorious thing they've made is genuinely galling to me. I give a damn, basically. There are better ways to do all of this!

    I care about ESO like I cared about Champions Online. Champions Online couldn't be saved despite the best efforts of those who tried to tell Cryptic what they were doing wrong. CO died. ESO is well on that track. It's sustaining itself, but only barely, and it most certainly isn't thriving. Let's not be delusional, eh? It could thrive, though. It bloody well could. Honestly, I might be too late to save ESO, too. I can perhaps hope, at least, that a developer of an upcoming game might just be listening in and might learn something.

    I'm tired of games I like commiting the most foolish forms of seppuku. It feels like how Brian must've felt watching the Judean People's Front do their thing (for anyone who gets that).

    And Brian's reactions, his very words, are what I want to say.

    Edit: It just occurred to me that there's another way to say this. MMO developers need to comprise their balancing teams of people who've played competitive card games. The similarities are immense, and systems of countering rather than this endless Everquest Lite-driven dance of buffing and nerfing would be so, so much better for everyone. I will stand by that, no matter what.

    Edit 2: So, basically, am I suggesting that ESO should be more like something like Yu-Gi-Oh? I say this as I worry someone else will bring it up, facetiously. Well, yes, actually. A system of counters would be very similar to how some of that game works. However, it's a system of counters with movement, positional awareness, and other skills being necessary. Give that a chance. Think about it for a bit.

    Edit 3: You could even use existing skills to deal with it. What if, say, a certain heal that seems useless right now could also reduce the damage/time held of Rune Cage?

    Why dis in a pts werewolf feedback?
    Caius
    Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
    PC NA
  • Aznox
    Aznox
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    TLDR ? (edit : i will be reading it when i can)

    Seems @AuldWolf likes writing a lot, and TESO Werewolf balance and lack of toggle felt like a good source of inspiration to him.

    You should write a novel, or blog about some hobby or political cause if you really need to be passionate about your writing.

    I think at this point you are giving too much place to a video game and reading it feels unhealthy to you.

    Actually does help me step back and think about my own relationship with TESO.
    Edited by Aznox on August 20, 2018 6:17PM
    Aznox
    PC EU
    Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
    I live in Battlegrounds
    Theorycrafting enthusiast
    Official Cheese Lord
    CP1500+ club
  • DuskMarine
    DuskMarine
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    the werewolf skill line still sucks to be frank. but it does feel more fun to play now.
  • Perwulf
    Perwulf
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    <<< Still have to slot WW ult for bonus resource regen. Just drop it to 10% like in vampirism and make it passive instead of requiring to slot the stupid skill.
    "Monsters doesn't exist, we create them"
  • Ertthewolf
    Ertthewolf
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    ravenarc wrote: »
    <<< Still have to slot WW ult for bonus resource regen. Just drop it to 10% like in vampirism and make it passive instead of requiring to slot the stupid skill.

    No.....It would be a bad change. It was like that a long time ago, at 15%. Every stam build was a werewolf just to get bonus. Nobody used the ultimate.
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