PTS Update 19 - Feedback Thread for Werewolf Skill Line

Qbiken

Peekachu99 wrote: »

The timer is worse than ever as evidenced by Gilliam constantly losing form in the last ESO Live—in a BG of all places, where you should never lose it.

I´ve the exact opposite experience, while Gilliam is a competent player, he could´ve done it better to maintain the werewolf-form.

ADarklore

Peekachu99 wrote: »

The timer is worse than ever as evidenced by Gilliam constantly losing form in the last ESO Live—in a BG of all places, where you should never lose it.

It's interesting reading your posts and talking about timer... when just post #208 above complained about the constant uptime of WW' "First the almost indefinite up time of werewolf form is fun but it makes leveling the line far too easy." I don't think Gilliam was TRYING to remain in WW form the entire time either, he was traveling around doing a lot of things, etc.

I believe they also mentioned about making it easier to remain in WW form if 'grouped' with other WWs mostly for RP reasons. So sure, there are plenty of ways to maintain form... but if you're not able to 'devour' on a constant basis... it would be tough to maintain form. They didn't redesign WW to be a permanent Ultimate... other than making it a bit easier for RPers.

AuldWolf

The thing is is that it should be a permanent ultimate. Everyone knows that. Even ZOS knows that which is why they're offering the home that has that as a boon. I think it's only them being obsessed with chasing the magical unicorn of balance, along with fears of repercussion from the hardcore minority that's actually stopping that from happening. Honestly, though, those two factors are stopping this game from becoming the brilliant, wonderful thing it could be, full stop.

That's what killed so many other MMOs I've loved. At this point, I'm pretty much done with MMOs. ESO was my last punt at it, hoping that ZOS would know better. Why am I posting, then? In some, vain hope I'm not whizzing into the wind, so to speak. ESO could be so good if they did what was best for the game, and what was best for the majority of players as opposed to chasing the magical balance unicorn and living in fear of minority reprisal. It's what's brought down every MMO I've loved and, as I've said before, I'm tired of groundhog day by this point. MMOs get stuck in this cycle of doom until they end up in maintenance. It hurts, honestly. I've loved all of these games. I loved Champions Online. Not like it gets easier, either.

I mean, I don't want to see games I like doom themselves.

The fact that werewolf isn't a toggle is symbolic of how the higher-ups are still following the wrong path, how they're still stuck in the past and -- as I've mentioned before -- developing Everquest Lite Lite Lite Lite Lite instead of being brave enough to try something new and do what people actually want. Werewolf form not being a toggle is symbolic of how they can't change, it tells us of the future of the game, and it's told me why I had to get out.

Qbiken

AuldWolf wrote: »

The thing is is that it should be a permanent ultimate. Everyone knows that. Even ZOS knows that which is why they're offering the home that has that as a boon. I think it's only them being obsessed with chasing the magical unicorn of balance, along with fears of repercussion from the hardcore minority that's actually stopping that from happening. Honestly, though, those two factors are stopping this game from becoming the brilliant, wonderful thing it could be, full stop.

That's what killed so many other MMOs I've loved. At this point, I'm pretty much done with MMOs. ESO was my last punt at it, hoping that ZOS would know better. Why am I posting, then? In some, vain hope I'm not whizzing into the wind, so to speak. ESO could be so good if they did what was best for the game, and what was best for the majority of players as opposed to chasing the magical balance unicorn and living in fear of minority reprisal. It's what's brought down every MMO I've loved and, as I've said before, I'm tired of groundhog day by this point. MMOs get stuck in this cycle of doom until they end up in maintenance. It hurts, honestly. I've loved all of these games. I loved Champions Online. Not like it gets easier, either.

I mean, I don't want to see games I like doom themselves.

The fact that werewolf isn't a toggle is symbolic of how the higher-ups are still following the wrong path, how they're still stuck in the past and -- as I've mentioned before -- developing Everquest Lite Lite Lite Lite Lite instead of being brave enough to try something new and do what people actually want. Werewolf form not being a toggle is symbolic of how they can't change, it tells us of the future of the game, and it's told me why I had to get out.

The reason it´s not a toggle is because of the balance issues it would come with if it was. As you said the dev-team is trying chase the "magical unicorn of balance". Making it a toggle would be like giving up that chase for good. Making it toggle doesn´t help the "permawolfs" but rather the opposite. Then every stamina character can just slot werewolf and go in and out whenever they like. And any experienced PvP player know how good werewolfs can be in certain situations (especially in 1v1). Only things that stops werewolf from being blatant OP is the high cost ultimate and the fact that you´ve to optimize your build around it. Having it being a toggle removes both those things.

And I would rather have a developer team that takes small steps instead of flipping the table around every 3 months.

After spending quite a lot of time on the PTS I can just say that werewolfs are really nice next patch. Both for PvE and PvP. Sure, I really disliked the change ZOS made to the heal. It made theorycrafting interesting (at least for me), but it´s not the end of the world for werewolfs.

Overall the developer-team have made a good job with improving werewolfs.

Sharee

Qbiken wrote: »

After spending quite a lot of time on the PTS I can just say that werewolfs are really nice next patch. Both for PvE and PvP. Sure, I really disliked the change ZOS made to the heal. It made theorycrafting interesting (at least for me), but it´s not the end of the world for werewolfs.

Overall the developer-team have made a good job with improving werewolfs.

On this topic, i was finally able to log on my wolf on PTS (EU copy happened). Just a quick and dirty test - bruma anchor on PTS, then on live. Almost identical build (PTS has 30 more CP but thats it).

Live heal: ~6500 noncrit
PTS heal: ~8500 noncrit (and that was the weaker hircine's, with brutality buff).

Needless to say, as far as heals go - happy.

Doctordarkspawn

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@AuldWolf

All I can say is: I'm just disappointed by your viewpoint. It's rather limited, and as you say: cynical.

Your post at first seems idealistic, something to be considered and weighed. But you never specify what this 'build' that you enjoy is. What playstyle it is that you find is going to be obliterated.

From what I can tell, with these upcoming changes to WW, the only playstyle that's getting upended is a playstyle revolving around a singular set: Pelinal's.

WW is likely to get nerfs. Yes. And players can sit on their hands and hope the devs make appropriate nerfs/fixes, or we can try to guide them in a direction with our feedback and testing.

It's delusional to think that what we want is what we'll get, for sure. However, by making our concerns known, it can potentially influence their train of thought.

It's idealistic. The above. Since it's entirely possible that all our feedback and complaints could fall on deaf ears, or be met with a difference in opinion.

However, doing nothing is sure to leave the future in the hands of 'fate', rather than being molded by our own.

Suggestions made with data, instead of feelings, will likely stand the test of time, by having a solid basis to hold against any flippant feedback made by players unfamiliar or outside of the WW playstyle.

It's fine to be tired. It isn't fine to just give up.

Regardless, I wish you good luck in whatever endeavors you choose in the future.

Except everything he says is predicated on the history of this game and this game has a history of balance changes at the behest of those two groups he mentions.

It's not disappointing. It's inevitable. It will continue to be for as long as we continue to chase that stupid unicorn that is balance. ]

Balance is a pipe dream. And until this game learns that it will never get better. Focus on fun, not balance.

Personally? I stopped playing ages ago, but one of the few reasons I do is my build has been mercifully intact for the most part.

Avran_Sylt

@Doctordarkspawn

The players who play the game the most, spend the most time theory-crafting builds, making content about certain aspects of the game, have the most sway over it? It's as it should be. The only hope is that those groups are causing changes while well informed, rather than while under emotional speculation.

Balance IS a pipe dream, if you consider balance to be multiple unique ways to approach the game and getting the same results in 1v1 flat terrain combat or having the exact same parses in every PvE scenario.

What is important to understand about balance is that there should be cases where the player will LOSE, specifically because of their choices. BALANCE is making sure that you don't always lose, but at the same time, making sure you don't always win. By altering the content available, or by altering how the players choices interact with the game (slotted skills/passives) (Of course this only is valid for players who actually try).

Right now it seems that WW will have very little downsides in most content, whether that's true or not in practice will remain to be seen. At this point it appears inevitable that WW will get buried, the only question is by how much.

AuldWolf

@Avran_Sylt

That's a very outdated way of looking at game design, which is the problem. If you were right -- which I'm open to -- then MMOs would be one of the most popular genres out there. It's actually the least, it currently sits somewhere around the same place as tactical wargaming. It was once a bigger thing, but everyone got fed up of the same issues I'm talking about. What contemporary game designers have realised is that balance is and should always be second fiddle to fun. Sadly something that MMO developers have yet to realise.

If balance was so important to game design, then riddle me this: Why are there more people invested in multiplayer mods and co-op RPGs right now than MMOs? It's because players are beginning to catch onto this truth as well: That nothing about game design should ever come above fun. If a game isn't fun, if a player feels devastated by the game they're playing to the point they don't want to come back to it? Such as a build or playstyle being obliterated due to balance changes? That's not fun. People won't bother.

This isn't like the '90s when people didn't know what video games were. Today, it's an entertainment industry. And what do people throw money at? Fun. I throw around money regularly for fun things. Just the other day I dropped $300 on a commission. The problem with the demographic that prefers balance? They don't believe -- for whatever bizarre reason -- that video games are a transaction of money to fun, as a means of stress relief, relaxation, and escapism. So they place an unfathomable debt on the developer whilst believing they owe little.

Tell me, what's happened to the vast majority of MMOs, to this day? They're either on life support, or they're dead. Some have died within a year. Others are barely crawling along. ESO has only done so well because it's appended enough Lites to the end of Everquest Lite Lite Lite Lite Lite that it's able to fool people into thinking they'll have fun in the long term. And for a while, they do, and it's bloody magnificent! Then it becomes clear that it is, indeed, just another Everquest Lite where there are factors that fun is beholden to, rather than everything being beholden to fun.

If a game isn't fun, who plays it? A game can be fun because it's frightening, a game can be fun because it's intellectually stimulating, a game can be fun because it's challenging, or for any other number of reasons. No, ESO isn't challenging. Don't make me laugh. Go and speedrun Ori & the Blind Forest if you want an actual challenge (which I've done, by the way, look up my Ori achievements on AuldWolf). ESO's constant tumultuous tatsumaki just leads to more grind, which has been the MMO's mainstay. Grind to be relevant, grind to make your character playable again, grind so you can have fun... That last part is the most important one, and the very compelling reason why many people drop out.

Everquest Lite Lite Lite... however many you append? It all still leads to grind. And people today don't want that. They just want to be able to settle down and have fun. Whenever ESO screws people over with nerfs and balance changes? You're telling people they can't have fun. And very often ESO will do things which are contrary to fun as well in the name of balance -- I'll keep citing werewolf not being a toggle as a grand example of this, because ti really is. If fun were their design impetus, then werewolf would've been a toggle long ago.

That people want fun, not grind, is why they stop bothering. It's why the demographic has shrunk so radically and why most people have given up. It's something I've talked about in my post-mortem. Most people want to have interesting stories, fun toys (new mechanics and ideas) to play with, and intriguing characters to interact with. They don't want that punctuated by grinding, they don't want their toys to become carrots-on-sticks.

Imagine if Portal 2 had told you that you needed to replay the last five test chambers fifty more times before you could unlock each type of the gels. Consider how many people would've bounced off of Portal at that point.

A contemporary audience is too savvy to bother with grind any more. There's too much grind in life. Video games are supposed to be about escapism and fun, not grinding to be able to get there some day. It's not about needing to make choices about how much you want to grind based upon how much content you want access to, it should be that all content is available to everyone to have fun with. Sadly, we're still stuck in Everquest, though. After all these years.

Grind isn't fun, and the confidence plot has been played out enough that people can no longer be fooled into thinking it is. Admittedly, ESO is better about it than a lot of MMOs, but it's still so, so, so many years behind the rest of game design it's embarrassing.

It's not "emotional speculation" to say that people want fun, not grind. That's logic, and fairly obvious logic at that.

Footnote: We'll see what the opinions look like in a couple of year's time when ESO is on life support or dead due to not being able to retain enough players versus more contemporary and fun games on the market. Whereas it could've had a long life of financial stability through expansions if they'd just shifted gears and reprioritised balance below fun.

Avran_Sylt

@AuldWolf

To me, 'Choices', are the currently slotted skills, armor sets, and foods. I'm impartial to how long it took you to get them or your skill with them.

To me, balance at its simplest, is like a player slotting only damage abilities being beaten by a player who slots defensive and offensive abilities in PvP, and in PvE a player slotting only damage abilities doing the best DPS compared to a player slotting defensive and offensive abilities.

When it comes to balance, I don't give two *** about grind. Remove it all for all I care. That's not the focus. The focus is instead all the various scenarios in the game, and all the various combinations of skills, sets and foods and how they interact with one another. How many scenarios does this combination shine in, how few does this one shine in?

Balance, is trying to make all of these combinations have a relatively similar number of use cases, and not to have one combination that shines in the majority of scenarios most commonly played in the game.

And yes, if there are over-tuned sets,abilities,classes, I can only hope that there is some compensation if they get nerfed or changed, because it does make you have to grind again if you no longer want them (though hopefully the change shold be marginal enough to still warrant its use).

When I say 'emotional speculation' I mean when a player hears the word 'nerf' or 'buffed [x]' and immediately says that's good or bad without any consideration apart from a bystanders experience.

My perspective on Portal 2 is that each of the Gels should have places in the level design where they're used. It's idiotic to have a Gel type that isn't used anywhere whatsoever, or is only used in one very small segment of the game.

About fun, yes, balance will sometimes get in the way of fun. But at the same time it can also catalyze it. That one build you always loved the look of, but didn't really have a place in any of the content you played? Well, it got tweaked a bit and is now usable.

That's what's happening with WW right now. And as you note, is likely going to be the reason it will get tweaked down a bit because it's a bit too usable, shining in a majority of the most commonly played scenarios.

Whether that will actually be the case or not is not yet decided.

But if it is the case, this is my suggestion about the matter:

PvE DPS is rather high, lower it a little bit by:
-Reducing Light Attack damage by 15%
-Reducing Bleed Damage by 15%

The above change weakens WW in PvP so:
-Remove Major Fracture from Deafeaning Roar, replace with Off-Balance
-Remove Off-balance from Ferocious Roar, replace with self-applied Minor Berserk.
-Add Major Fracture to Piercing Howl and Morphs.

(By giving the WW buffs/debuffs normally found in Groups, it lowers its overall PvE potential while still allowing it to be a powerhouse in PvP.)

Qbiken

My take on the werewolf changes so far after testing things on the PTS:

PvE
I think most of us have seen the 50k solo parses on target dummies. While it seems to be very un-balanced at first glance, I don´t see werewolfs being a part of the end-game "meta" anytime soon. Here is why:

• The parses are heavily carried by sets. Especially Blood Moon and Relequen. Replacing one or both of these sets drastically reduces your DPS. And from what I´ve heard Relequen will receive some treatment.
• Mechanics in veteran dungeons doesn´t make werewolf desirable. I can see werewolfs being used in certain bossfights in the Craglorn trials. But in DLC/Chapter trials I would be surprised if werewolf were to replace a non-werewolf stamblade, stamsorc, stamDK or stamplar.
• No changes in the PTS notes indicates that werewolfs got any buffs to their overall damage output, aside for the pets from the "Pack Leader" morph (which will probably spend more time being dead than alive in most vTrials). So that again leaves us to the conclusion that certain sets are the main cause of the incredibly amount of DPS we can achieve.

I think the changes that was made to werewolfs was a nice step to make them viable for more things than just PvP. I´m sure some end-game raiding guild will utilize werewolfs on certain bossfights and make good use of it, but I don´t think werewolfs are unbalanced in their current state regarding PvE. Tweak overperforming sets and we´re good to go.

PvP
Skills & Passives

• Werewolf ultimate: Nice to see that the "hidden stats" of being a werewolf are more clear. Great job here. Nice to see bug-fixes being made to the Pack leader morph. There´s however a quite significant bug with this morph that needs to be adressed ASAP. If @ZOS_GinaBruno or anyone else from the developer team could contact me I´ll provide information about this.
• Pounce: I must say I´m disappointed that Brutal Pounce didn´t get any other treatment than it did. Would be nice to see some minor/major buff attached to it, or maybe even a short snare immunity after. I personally don´t see any reason why you wouldn´t pick Feral Pounce. Would also like to see minimum distance being increased so that you always know that you´ll get extra seconds to your werewolf timer when jumping.
• Hircine´s Rage: Oboy did this change have a huge impact on things. While I know we asked for a choice between more damage and better survivability, I didn´t expect this. The loss of the 10% extra weapon-damage from Hircine´s Rage is noticeable. Now that it scales of health certain builds will thrive with this change. I think most people will run with the Hircine´s Fortitude morph and try to get major brutality from other sources (potions or Igneous weapons from a DK).
• Roar: Really dislike that Major Brutality was removed from this skill. While most non-werewolf stamina builds have a source of major brutality, it was still a nice feature as a werewolf being able to provide that to a group. Deafening Roar is an interesting skill, but I still think off-balance is a more powerful tool than major fracture. And the fact that major fracture isn't applied unless your target is feared doesn´t make the morph more attractive. Also like that Roar is instantly casted, will increase survivability in PvP for sure.
• Howl: While I understand why the stun was removed I really dislike it. Will make it significantly harder to catch fleeing enemies. Werewolfs have no snares attached to their skilline and their only stun requires the target to be in melee range. The change to Howl of Despair is nice for PvE, but don´t see it being too useful in PvP, but a nice change anyway.
• Infectious Claws: No comment here really. Noticed that the duration of major defile attached to Claws of Anguish was reduced to 4 seconds. Probably to match the duration of other defile-debuffs, however I didn´t see any information about this in the initial patch notes.
• Werewolf Passives. Bloodrage passive change is nice for PvE and will require you to play more aggressive in PvP. While I personally would like to see Bloodrage proc from both taking damage and dealing damage, I see the change as a buff for PvP. I would also like to see Call of the Pack being brought back to it´s "permawolf" state. But that´s more of a "wishful thinking" idea.

I see some people suggesting that werewolfs need to have their damage reduced (especially with the PvE parses in mind). From my time on the PTS I can tell you that werewolfs have lost quite a lot of damage output (strictly speaking of PvP). If you want to get more out of your heal you´re required to invest more into your max HP, and our heal still costs magicka. You therefore need a decent amount of magicka recovery. Investing into HP and magicka recovery leads to less max stamina, and less weapon damage. So the PvP werewolf has increased their survivability, but at the cost of loosing a bit of their damage potential.


Will we see a werewolf meta?

Yes.

But not necessary because "they´re OP and needs nerfing", but because we´ll have a DLC that is focused on werewolfs. If we ever have a vampire focused DLC in the future I´m quite certainly we will have a vampire meta for a while.

LifenLemons

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't understand more than half of this discussion lol. But from what I've read, the ww build has been modified for the worse.
Should I rather cure my toon? I mean the ww thing is pretty new to me. Its on L8 or 7 and it's really hard for me to see that it's any good cause of the recent LAG issues popping up. In my experience so far it's not worth it. Plus it takes space in my skill line, which alters my abilities and I'm left with do I or don't I. They could at least have had the ww in it's own seperate skill line.

Chrlynsch

LifenLemons wrote: »

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't understand more than half of this discussion lol. But from what I've read, the ww build has been modified for the worse.
Should I rather cure my toon? I mean the ww thing is pretty new to me. Its on L8 or 7 and it's really hard for me to see that it's any good cause of the recent LAG issues popping up. In my experience so far it's not worth it. Plus it takes space in my skill line, which alters my abilities and I'm left with do I or don't I. They could at least have had the ww in it's own seperate skill line.

What do you mean own separate skill line? You mean skill bar? Werewolf gets its own skill bar when transforming. The only thing you need to slot is the ultimate.

Avran_Sylt

@LifenLemons @AuldWolf

WW hasn't been changed for the worse. As of right now it has been buffed.

The worry is that it will be nerfed into a state where it's worse because of the buff.

LifenLemons

Chrlynsch wrote: »

LifenLemons wrote: »

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't understand more than half of this discussion lol. But from what I've read, the ww build has been modified for the worse.
Should I rather cure my toon? I mean the ww thing is pretty new to me. Its on L8 or 7 and it's really hard for me to see that it's any good cause of the recent LAG issues popping up. In my experience so far it's not worth it. Plus it takes space in my skill line, which alters my abilities and I'm left with do I or don't I. They could at least have had the ww in it's own seperate skill line.

What do you mean own separate skill line? You mean skill bar? Werewolf gets its own skill bar when transforming. The only thing you need to slot is the ultimate.

I mean that you have 2 sets of skills right?
In my case it's duel wield with the skill sets for duel wield & some other, then you have the second, which I equiped a bow and other skills for the bow. So my ultimate (I like dawnbreaker I think it is), is currently on werewolf transform. So I can still put my dawnbreaker on bow. Which is fine, I don't mind. But now, you have to set individual skills for your werewolf too. This takes up skill blocks that I already have something in that I like and that works for me. Hence me mentioning that I'd like it if there were 3 skill sets you could fill. One for main, one for backup and one for if and when you go werewolf.

My wording is not 100. But I hope it makes sense

Chrlynsch

LifenLemons wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

LifenLemons wrote: »

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't understand more than half of this discussion lol. But from what I've read, the ww build has been modified for the worse.
Should I rather cure my toon? I mean the ww thing is pretty new to me. Its on L8 or 7 and it's really hard for me to see that it's any good cause of the recent LAG issues popping up. In my experience so far it's not worth it. Plus it takes space in my skill line, which alters my abilities and I'm left with do I or don't I. They could at least have had the ww in it's own seperate skill line.

What do you mean own separate skill line? You mean skill bar? Werewolf gets its own skill bar when transforming. The only thing you need to slot is the ultimate.

I mean that you have 2 sets of skills right?
In my case it's duel wield with the skill sets for duel wield & some other, then you have the second, which I equiped a bow and other skills for the bow. So my ultimate (I like dawnbreaker I think it is), is currently on werewolf transform. So I can still put my dawnbreaker on bow. Which is fine, I don't mind. But now, you have to set individual skills for your werewolf too. This takes up skill blocks that I already have something in that I like and that works for me. Hence me mentioning that I'd like it if there were 3 skill sets you could fill. One for main, one for backup and one for if and when you go werewolf.

My wording is not 100. But I hope it makes sense

Your suggestion is exactly the way it works currently. Keep all your human skills in place slot your werewolf ult. Use your werewolf ult and it will switch over to a third bar with all of your werewolf skills.

Avran_Sylt

@Chrlynsch @LifenLemons

There's actually a QoL improvement in the PTS with the WW ability bar in that selecting the Werewolf World Skilline will automatically open up the WW bar, and also allow you to swap between all three bars in that UI window. (Part of Patch notes v4.1.0)
(Only confusing part is the Hover Tooltip on the switch icon only says primary and secondary bar, never mentions the additional bar)

Glaiceana

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Chrlynsch @LifenLemons

There's actually a QoL improvement in the PTS with the WW ability bar in that selecting the Werewolf World Skilline will automatically open up the WW bar, and also allow you to swap between all three bars in that UI window. (Part of Patch notes v4.1.0)
(Only confusing part is the Hover Tooltip on the switch icon only says primary and secondary bar, never mentions the additional bar)

Yeah I forgot to mention that change as well! Its really nice, very happy to see it!

LifenLemons

Chrlynsch wrote: »

LifenLemons wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

LifenLemons wrote: »

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't understand more than half of this discussion lol. But from what I've read, the ww build has been modified for the worse.
Should I rather cure my toon? I mean the ww thing is pretty new to me. Its on L8 or 7 and it's really hard for me to see that it's any good cause of the recent LAG issues popping up. In my experience so far it's not worth it. Plus it takes space in my skill line, which alters my abilities and I'm left with do I or don't I. They could at least have had the ww in it's own seperate skill line.

What do you mean own separate skill line? You mean skill bar? Werewolf gets its own skill bar when transforming. The only thing you need to slot is the ultimate.

I mean that you have 2 sets of skills right?
In my case it's duel wield with the skill sets for duel wield & some other, then you have the second, which I equiped a bow and other skills for the bow. So my ultimate (I like dawnbreaker I think it is), is currently on werewolf transform. So I can still put my dawnbreaker on bow. Which is fine, I don't mind. But now, you have to set individual skills for your werewolf too. This takes up skill blocks that I already have something in that I like and that works for me. Hence me mentioning that I'd like it if there were 3 skill sets you could fill. One for main, one for backup and one for if and when you go werewolf.

My wording is not 100. But I hope it makes sense

Your suggestion is exactly the way it works currently. Keep all your human skills in place slot your werewolf ult. Use your werewolf ult and it will switch over to a third bar with all of your werewolf skills.

I'm on PS4

Chrlynsch

LifenLemons wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

LifenLemons wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

LifenLemons wrote: »

I'm not ashamed to say that I don't understand more than half of this discussion lol. But from what I've read, the ww build has been modified for the worse.
Should I rather cure my toon? I mean the ww thing is pretty new to me. Its on L8 or 7 and it's really hard for me to see that it's any good cause of the recent LAG issues popping up. In my experience so far it's not worth it. Plus it takes space in my skill line, which alters my abilities and I'm left with do I or don't I. They could at least have had the ww in it's own seperate skill line.

What do you mean own separate skill line? You mean skill bar? Werewolf gets its own skill bar when transforming. The only thing you need to slot is the ultimate.

I mean that you have 2 sets of skills right?
In my case it's duel wield with the skill sets for duel wield & some other, then you have the second, which I equiped a bow and other skills for the bow. So my ultimate (I like dawnbreaker I think it is), is currently on werewolf transform. So I can still put my dawnbreaker on bow. Which is fine, I don't mind. But now, you have to set individual skills for your werewolf too. This takes up skill blocks that I already have something in that I like and that works for me. Hence me mentioning that I'd like it if there were 3 skill sets you could fill. One for main, one for backup and one for if and when you go werewolf.

My wording is not 100. But I hope it makes sense

Your suggestion is exactly the way it works currently. Keep all your human skills in place slot your werewolf ult. Use your werewolf ult and it will switch over to a third bar with all of your werewolf skills.

I'm on PS4

Does it on all platforms

ADarklore

I think one thing that many new players don't realize about WW, is how to set their WW skill bar. I mean, in open-world you only have a few seconds to work with your skills before your timer runs out... but many people don't know that if you go to the Werewolf shrine, you can activate your WW ultimate and it does not have a timer- so this is where, currently on Live, you go to arrange your WW bar skills... the upcoming change to be able to work with the bar from the skills menu will be a very nice QoL improvement for WWs.

LifenLemons

Guys! I found it lol.
I understand now.
How the crap did I not notice this before.....
Wow I feel special lol

Thank you for helping me see the light

Doctordarkspawn

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Doctordarkspawn

The players who play the game the most, spend the most time theory-crafting builds, making content about certain aspects of the game, have the most sway over it? It's as it should be. The only hope is that those groups are causing changes while well informed, rather than while under emotional speculation.

Balance IS a pipe dream, if you consider balance to be multiple unique ways to approach the game and getting the same results in 1v1 flat terrain combat or having the exact same parses in every PvE scenario.

What is important to understand about balance is that there should be cases where the player will LOSE, specifically because of their choices. BALANCE is making sure that you don't always lose, but at the same time, making sure you don't always win. By altering the content available, or by altering how the players choices interact with the game (slotted skills/passives) (Of course this only is valid for players who actually try).

Right now it seems that WW will have very little downsides in most content, whether that's true or not in practice will remain to be seen. At this point it appears inevitable that WW will get buried, the only question is by how much.

This is the elitist old guard mentality that keep games in the past and lock out the majority of people from having any fun at any level.

Difficulty isn't balance. Difficulty is difficulty. Balance is the pursuit of a even playing field and not only is an even playing field not fun, it is a pipe dream.

It's because of this mentality that I stopped playing, for the most part. The players who 'play the game the most' monopolized it, monopolized feedback, and left nothing for the rest of us. The rest of us, who play games for fun, had our game hijacked by a bunch of tryhards who want nothing more then to continue to lord their skill at a system they've helped create over the rest of us. This is why I advocate for there to be no more balance changes except ones that make the abilities fun to use, the classes more fun to play, and personally think development should shift to editing difficulty to accomodate for that new powerlevel. More difficulty tiers. If the people who find difficulty fun, find -difficulty- fun, there's no reason we shouldn't accomodate that to.

@Avran_Sylt That's all I have to say on that. You're vision of the game leaves nothing for the rest of us. We want fun, you want balance. Their mutually exclusive. You may not want to force people out, but you are. And if that's what the class reps will be arguing for, that's what'll happen. Thankfully that's not what's happening, Werewolf is geting good boosts, the skills I've seen altered on feedback from these people were better edited, better shaped for players. The rune focus change was a good example, it got taken back down to live initial cost, because we provided feedback, and the class reps passed it along.

But if that stops happening the program threatens to make the game development more insular toward the old guard mentality and it will not end well for this game.

At the end of the day, the only thing that will get me to seriously come back and enjoy this game is a development cycle that does not mean I have to change my build every 3 months, and one that feels fun to *** play. No more. I'm tired of it. ESO's approach of constant balance changes upending the table does not work. The experiment has failed. -No more-.

Sharee

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Balance is the pursuit of a even playing field and not only is an even playing field not fun, it is a pipe dream.

It's because of this mentality that I stopped playing, for the most part.

You say a game has to be unbalanced to be fun. For whom? The guy playing the overpowered setup?
And how much fun do you think the guy on the receiving end of the imbalance is going to have?

The fact perfect balance cannot be achieved does not mean we should stop striving for it.
Game balance is a pipe dream? So is a city without crime. Guess we should dissolve the police, then.

Doctordarkspawn

Sharee wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

This is the elitist old guard mentality that keep games in the past and lock out the majority of people from having any fun at any level.

Difficulty isn't balance. Difficulty is difficulty. Balance is the pursuit of a even playing field and not only is an even playing field not fun, it is a pipe dream.

It's because of this mentality that I stopped playing, for the most part.

How can anyone be so short-sighted?

You say a game has to be unbalanced to be fun. For whom? The guy playing the overpowered setup? And how much fun do you think the guy on the receiving end of the imbalance is going to have?!

Further, how long do you think will it take for the latter to get his bearings, and change himself to the overpowered setup, balancing the game between you two once more? Balanced again - except the game has an underpowered setup no-one plays = waste of resources.

In the end, the only ones playing the underpowered setup (and thus providing "fun" for the others) will be newbies who haven't figured it out yet. The overpowered players will be preying on them, "having fun".

"Noooo, you can't take out overpowered toys away, we need them to HAVE FUN preying on the newbies!", they say.
How's that for "elitist old guard" mentality?!

I dont say it has to. I'm saying the second you put balance -above- fun on the food chain, you've officially doomed a game.

As for PVP...Anyone on the losing side will not have fun. That's what PVP is. You have a problem with that, you have a problem with PVP and I suggest you stop playing it, it's why I stopped.

And finally, there should be no underpowered setups. In PVE, we can mitigate that. With editing difficulty modes and such. In PVP? Never gonna happen. PVP is never going to be balanced and PVP is entirely dependant on who is winning. Not if you dont seperate it.

You want fun PVP? Go to a game like Camelot unchained when it releases where PVP balance is it's entire goal. Thus has allways, and will allways be my stance on things. MMO's should be PVE or PVP focused entirely so they can focus on making these respective things fun, nobody has ever been able to do both and nobody will.

And the reason all of this is the elitist old guard mentality is becuase You are inherently focused on who is going to win, and who isn't. That's where your outrage is predicated from. It's inherently based on PVP. And PVP is the problem most of the time with balancing for fun with this game. Your fun, as a PVPer, comes at the cost of ours. You are the enemy. It is what it is. Because when the balance conforms to you, the game gets less workable, less free, less fun, for us.

Sharee

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I dont say it has to. I'm saying the second you put balance -above- fun on the food chain, you've officially doomed a game.

Game balance is above fun by default, because if there is no balance, someone is not having fun (the guy on the receiving end of the imbalance).

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for PVP...Anyone on the losing side will not have fun. That's what PVP is.

Losing in PvP is part of the fun, as long as you lost because the other guy was better. You lose, you get better, you win. But you cannot do that if there is no balance, because you originally lost not because you weren't good enough, but because the other guy was abusing a game imbalance.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

And the reason all of this is the elitist old guard mentality is becuase You are inherently focused on who is going to win, and who isn't. That's where your outrage is predicated from. It's inherently based on PVP. And PVP is the problem most of the time with balancing for fun with this game. Your fun, as a PVPer, comes at the cost of ours. You are the enemy. It is what it is. Because when the balance conforms to you, the game gets less workable, less free, less fun, for us.

Balance, while important for PvP, is not a PvP-exclusive quality. Just look at the recent trial meta: MagNB, MagNB, MagNB:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427078/nothing-addressing-the-nightblade-meta-we-re-currently-saddled-with

Now go ask a non-MagNB how much fun he is having being rejected from trial groups because "ur not a MagNB m8".

Doctordarkspawn

Sharee wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I dont say it has to. I'm saying the second you put balance -above- fun on the food chain, you've officially doomed a game.

Game balance is above fun by default, because if there is no balance, someone is not having fun (the guy on the receiving end of the imbalance).

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for PVP...Anyone on the losing side will not have fun. That's what PVP is.

Losing in PvP is part of the fun, as long as you lost because the other guy was better. You lose, you get better, you win. But you cannot do that if there is no balance, because you originally lost not because you weren't good enough, but because the other guy was abusing a game imbalance.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

And the reason all of this is the elitist old guard mentality is becuase You are inherently focused on who is going to win, and who isn't. That's where your outrage is predicated from. It's inherently based on PVP. And PVP is the problem most of the time with balancing for fun with this game. Your fun, as a PVPer, comes at the cost of ours. You are the enemy. It is what it is. Because when the balance conforms to you, the game gets less workable, less free, less fun, for us.

Balance, while important for PvP, is not a PvP-exclusive quality. Just look at the recent trial meta: MagNB, MagNB, MagNB:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427078/nothing-addressing-the-nightblade-meta-we-re-currently-saddled-with

Now go ask a non-MagNB how much fun he is having being rejected from trial groups because "ur not a MagNB m8".

The natural reaction from my view to this is to buff the rest of the classes, not nerf Mag-NB. That's where we differ. You seek to destroy, I seek to enrich. It will allways be the fundemental difference. You take other people being better or 'imbalanced' as a personal insult because you're not cashing in.

It's an inherently selfish mentality and I wont try to reason with it further.

Sharee

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I dont say it has to. I'm saying the second you put balance -above- fun on the food chain, you've officially doomed a game.

Game balance is above fun by default, because if there is no balance, someone is not having fun (the guy on the receiving end of the imbalance).

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for PVP...Anyone on the losing side will not have fun. That's what PVP is.

Losing in PvP is part of the fun, as long as you lost because the other guy was better. You lose, you get better, you win. But you cannot do that if there is no balance, because you originally lost not because you weren't good enough, but because the other guy was abusing a game imbalance.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

And the reason all of this is the elitist old guard mentality is becuase You are inherently focused on who is going to win, and who isn't. That's where your outrage is predicated from. It's inherently based on PVP. And PVP is the problem most of the time with balancing for fun with this game. Your fun, as a PVPer, comes at the cost of ours. You are the enemy. It is what it is. Because when the balance conforms to you, the game gets less workable, less free, less fun, for us.

Balance, while important for PvP, is not a PvP-exclusive quality. Just look at the recent trial meta: MagNB, MagNB, MagNB:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427078/nothing-addressing-the-nightblade-meta-we-re-currently-saddled-with

Now go ask a non-MagNB how much fun he is having being rejected from trial groups because "ur not a MagNB m8".

The natural reaction from my view to this is to buff the rest of the classes, not nerf Mag-NB. That's where we differ. You seek to destroy, I seek to enrich.

Oh really. So suddenly you care about balance? Who was it who said "even playing field is not fun"?

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

It's an inherently selfish mentality and I wont try to reason with it further.

On the contrary. You insisting on an imbalance to continue to exist just so that you can continue having fun at the expense of someone else(because that's what an imbalance inevitably leads to) is the very definition of "selfish".

Qbiken

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I dont say it has to. I'm saying the second you put balance -above- fun on the food chain, you've officially doomed a game.

Game balance is above fun by default, because if there is no balance, someone is not having fun (the guy on the receiving end of the imbalance).

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for PVP...Anyone on the losing side will not have fun. That's what PVP is.

Losing in PvP is part of the fun, as long as you lost because the other guy was better. You lose, you get better, you win. But you cannot do that if there is no balance, because you originally lost not because you weren't good enough, but because the other guy was abusing a game imbalance.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

And the reason all of this is the elitist old guard mentality is becuase You are inherently focused on who is going to win, and who isn't. That's where your outrage is predicated from. It's inherently based on PVP. And PVP is the problem most of the time with balancing for fun with this game. Your fun, as a PVPer, comes at the cost of ours. You are the enemy. It is what it is. Because when the balance conforms to you, the game gets less workable, less free, less fun, for us.

Balance, while important for PvP, is not a PvP-exclusive quality. Just look at the recent trial meta: MagNB, MagNB, MagNB:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427078/nothing-addressing-the-nightblade-meta-we-re-currently-saddled-with

Now go ask a non-MagNB how much fun he is having being rejected from trial groups because "ur not a MagNB m8".

The natural reaction from my view to this is to buff the rest of the classes, not nerf Mag-NB. That's where we differ. You seek to destroy, I seek to enrich. It will allways be the fundemental difference. You take other people being better or 'imbalanced' as a personal insult because you're not cashing in.

It's an inherently selfish mentality and I wont try to reason with it further.

You might want to come down from that high horse of yours before hurting yourself

On a more serious note, both fun and balance goes hand in hand. What you consider fun might not be what others consider fun, but I sort of agree with you that in the end of the day, what matters is if we enjoy the game or not. But I don´t think it should come to the expense of ruining balance in a game.

While it´s an interesting topic, I don´t think it belongs in the WW-feedback thread.

Feanor

@Sharee

He doesn’t care about balance, he doesn’t even play anymore according to his own posting.

As for the rest of the thread this reads like please buff me further through the roof...

Doctordarkspawn

Sharee wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I dont say it has to. I'm saying the second you put balance -above- fun on the food chain, you've officially doomed a game.

Game balance is above fun by default, because if there is no balance, someone is not having fun (the guy on the receiving end of the imbalance).

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

As for PVP...Anyone on the losing side will not have fun. That's what PVP is.

Losing in PvP is part of the fun, as long as you lost because the other guy was better. You lose, you get better, you win. But you cannot do that if there is no balance, because you originally lost not because you weren't good enough, but because the other guy was abusing a game imbalance.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

And the reason all of this is the elitist old guard mentality is becuase You are inherently focused on who is going to win, and who isn't. That's where your outrage is predicated from. It's inherently based on PVP. And PVP is the problem most of the time with balancing for fun with this game. Your fun, as a PVPer, comes at the cost of ours. You are the enemy. It is what it is. Because when the balance conforms to you, the game gets less workable, less free, less fun, for us.

Balance, while important for PvP, is not a PvP-exclusive quality. Just look at the recent trial meta: MagNB, MagNB, MagNB:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/427078/nothing-addressing-the-nightblade-meta-we-re-currently-saddled-with

Now go ask a non-MagNB how much fun he is having being rejected from trial groups because "ur not a MagNB m8".

The natural reaction from my view to this is to buff the rest of the classes, not nerf Mag-NB. That's where we differ. You seek to destroy, I seek to enrich.

Oh really. So suddenly you care about balance? Who was it who said "even playing field is not fun"?

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

It's an inherently selfish mentality and I wont try to reason with it further.

On the contrary. You insisting on an imbalance to continue to exist just so that you can continue having fun at the expense of someone else(because that's what an imbalance inevitably leads to) is the very definition of "selfish".

Not going to further the whole fallacy that 'enriching is balance'. I am not advocating for balance. If you cannot see past balance, if any effort is balance or irrelevent, that is selfish. If 'balance' is making sure nobody is too powerfull or too weak, we will never see that. By definition of game mechanics. Someone will allways be stronger. It's time to accept that. But just because a class is 'weak' compared to another does not mean it cant do fair DPS and be extremely fun to play.

Now, can we stop spamming the thread about it? I responded to one dude who pinged me off a tertiary point and it's gone way past it's due date.