This is why YOU get kicked for being low CP or bad at DPS/Heals/Tank

Asardes · July 2018

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

I know this is a bit off topic, but as someone who has only PUG'd twice in her life, I wondered:

On NORMAL difficulty:

If you end up in a dungeon you haven't done before and don't know the mechanics, is it considered wise to say so and ask for explanations? Or, since it's normal mode, just wing it? Is the very admission that you don't know the mechanics grounds for being kicked? I'm thinking especially of later DLC dungeons with more complicated/difficult mechanics.

Better watch/read swiftly the dungeon guide. You can't always burn trough the mechanic. Ex. I had a really dumb & fake tank (NB spamming Sap Essence & basic attacks from 1H+S bar) once in nFH that kept absorbing the ghosts from the adds at the bone colossus boss, but not getting them to the bright spots. I had explained the mechanic in detail in group chat and even jumped at the places where the spots spawn while texting.

As usual, nobody either confirmed or infirmed that they've red & understood, but if I bothered explaining then I automatically consider no answer as affirmative. After he screwed up the mechanic a dozen times with me repeating and jumping I gave up and left the group. Up to that point I had carried with about 65% group DPS but you can't out-DPS stupidity. In this case redouced HP actually made things worse because he was able to kill the adds.

xirub17_ESO · July 2018

Also, I do find 20-25k DPS as possible, but in my own experience, that level is not easily achievable for the "casual player".
Anything beyond that, is the realm beyond a casual player.

Ghanima_Atreides · July 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Better watch/read swiftly the dungeon guide. You can't always burn trough the mechanic. Ex. I had a really dumb & fake tank (NB spamming Sap Essence & basic attacks from 1H+S bar) once in nFH that kept absorbing the ghosts from the adds at the bone colossus boss, but not getting them to the bright spots. I had explained the mechanic in detail in group chat and even jumped at the places where the spots spawn while texting.

Yeah that's what I'm afraid of. Today, for example, after plucking up the courage to queue for a dungeon, I ended up in Wayrest Sewers II, which I hadn't done before. I was aware there was supposed to be a mechanic somewhere but wasn't sure how it worked. Then people started steaming ahead so I just followed, hoping for the best. In the end, it was easy to figure out and it went OK.

I don't think I could've paused to read through dungeon guides at that point though; if I were going to do that, it should be before. Problem is, when there are quite a few dungeons you haven't done, remembering each one of them can be tricky.

xirub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, I do find 20-25k DPS as possible, but in my own experience, that level is not easily achievable for the "casual player".
Anything beyond that, is the realm beyond a casual player.

Yeah...right now I'm stuck at 17K. It's gone up a bit since I made some changes, but I cannot seem to get above this number, not to mention, sustain is an issue still despite me using the Atronach stone, potions and someone else casting Elemental Drain. I still end up having to HA a few times which no doubt is where I lose some DPS.

Slack · July 2018

AuldWolf wrote: »

It makes my head spin.

I've never known any other game where sociopaths come forward and freely admit their toxicity and elitism to everyone. What do you think that publicly embodying the dark triad gets you? This 'YOU' nonsense, especially.

This is what's killing the trial scene, and it's what will put the final nail in the coffin. This is why people don't play trials, because they're forced to group with people like the OP. ZeniMax needs to take the forced grouping element away by having trials scale tot he number of people entering, with the minimum number being 1 or 2 people. This way, people can get together to have a fun dungeon run in any number, but they aren't forced to group with a person like the OP.

Removing forced grouping from trials is the only way to cut away this toxicity from the game. The trial scene is only going to continue to implode, and threads like this will continue to be posted right up until the trial scene completely dies off and only sociopathic people are running it. I suspect we're pretty close to that point already.

ZOS is doing themselves no favours by catering to this crowd. It looks bad for the game.

LOL. Either troll or very special.
Anyway, try playing "Clicker Heroes" on steam, im sure that caters perfectly to your "scene"

Silver_Strider · July 2018

Guppet wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I've more or less stop building my Dungeon Tanks/Healers in being Trial buff bots and just built them as DPS for PUGS. My tanks wear Heavy Julianos/Hundings + IA or even Alkosh because PUGs oddly enough seem to gravitate to using a lot of synergy skills that I can actually keep Alkosh on without it being a problem; A recent PUG run of vCOA2 had a Sorc DPS using Bone Shield, Blood Altar, Storm Atronach and Liquid Lightning, a Templar Healer that was a Shard Spammer, and a NB that only used Soul Tether when he wasn't Bow LAing, no other abilities (ok he was using Siege Shield, which just hurt my soul seeing) It was a painfully long run and I had to solo Skoria from 50% after we lost all the platforms since everyone else couldn't stay alive at that point. It was awful and just made it me realize that you cannot expect good ANYTHING in PUGs.

Drop Warhorn, Ebon, Olorime, etc going into PUGs, put on a more DPS oriented set up that doesn't completely neglect your role (keep a taunt if Tanking and heals for Healers) but get the most effective solo usage out of the set up as possible and go ham. If you see that everything is melting, THEN switch into a more supportive set up to help them out but if things are going poorly, just keep on going "solo".

I find that as tank for pugs it’s actually quicker to gear for AOE rather than buffing the dps.

I use Baharas curse, thunderbug (seriously this puts out crazy AOE dps, more than most dps players lol). Then for monster Gravdar or swarm mother if I don’t want to have to spam leash.

Works wonders.

I have used things like Bahrahra's Curse, still do sometimes too, but I've always been a support character at heart that I prefer to help other succeed whenever possible. Sets like Powerful Assault, Alkosh, etc. all appeal to me as they're largely supportive sets that also help you DPS and are more along the line of what sets I utilize when in good PUGs vs bad PUGs. Then, there are those groups in a weird in between spot that aren't completely terrible, just average that I don't need to completely carry but not good enough that I don't have to try, which would be my Bahrahra's Curse/Kagrenac's Hope/Swarm mother set up so I can still do my job as Tank, do some DPS and get thru the experience as painlessly as possible.

Asardes · July 2018

When I started running group dungeons there was no group finder. You just spammed LFG in the zone where the dungeon was hoping to find a group. My rule was to do the dungeon in that zone after I had completted all other objectives. So I ended up doing Fungal Grotto 1 at about 20, Darkshade Caverns 1 at about 28, Arx Corinium at 36 and about 45 at Direfrost Keep. The first I did with the tool was Arx, as Orsinium had just dropped. I always read the guide before LFG/queue. Then I started doing the "silver" and "gold" pledges, and for 10-15 minutes after taking the quests I toggled to browser and read the guides. Then I started LFG or queued. Many times I actually ended up explaining mechanics from what I had read. Yet after almost 3 years people still fail to press LMB+RMB at Drodda ...

Tsar_Gekkou · July 2018

I think it's funny how people are complaining about "elitism." Having basic standards isn't elitism. That's like saying you're an elitist if you don't pick the quadriplegic kid to be on your basketball team. Most games with a goal require a certain set of standards in order to achieve the goal. It's pretty entitled to expect those who actually pay attention to the game they're playing to be at the mercy of those who run around with their eyes closed or can't even be bothered to ask someone a question about how to play because they want a free carry, whether it's through a vet trial for a skin or drops, or a simple dungeon.

I've run through so many dungeon groups on my healer where I outdamage the dps(ranging from low to max cp) using nothing but Elemental Blockade and weaving Crushing Shock. It's not fun to work on a 4-person group project when 2-3 people do nothing but scratch and sniff while you try to do all the work. I'm honestly starting to think that the game itself is to blame as well. You run through the story mode as a dps, but the game doesn't bother to teach you that you have to do more than run around in circles and light attack in order to beat things. If the game had some kind of advanced tutorial for each dps class that shows people the basics of how to actually do damage, the average dps in this game wouldn't be so abyssmal and people would queue on their support roles more, which would lead to the dungeon finder producing higher quality experiences.

rfennell_ESO · July 2018

xirub17_ESO wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Point being, what's the criteria for someone just hobbling you because they want to be carried?

Help them before you carry them, or don't. What if the set they need are in the dungeon they queue'd for?

That's fine, but I've seen people queue for that dungeon they need stuff from without food, unenchanted gear etc.

I've mostly not cared as long as it doesn't matter regarding the completion of things. But... sometimes you need a group that is at least clicking on all cylinders.

It's a rare day when someone who obviously isn't outputting the type of production needed will say "sorry guys, I'm not geared/experienced enough for this and I'm holding you up. Replace me and sorry!" Mostly they will deflect or deny or turn to insults (or even try and blame you). Or: The best of the best is when they realize that it's them messing up the works and everyone else realizes it as well and they won't leave group and used to stay in the dungeon to prevent the group from continuing all while taunting you. I used to see this one regularly.. and it's pretty bad.

Being an elitist swine is bad, being useless and trying to force a group to carry you where you have no place is even worse.

ResTandRespeC · July 2018

JasmineMcCoy wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

JasmineMcCoy wrote: »

As somebody who struggles to even get above 10k in the field, it's truly disheartening to read that, apparently, now a everybody and their dog can easily do 30k+ dps.

I'd say the majority of people can't do 30k dps. The majority of people also don't step into content that needs that.

As far as yours specifically. Why don't you break down what you're wearing, what you're using.... class, race, skills, CP number and allocation, and what you think you're struggling with and I'm sure we can help you as with others in this thread who have brought up their specifics.

DK, DE, alcast dual wield + bow sta build excluding caltrops (don't have the skill yet), 380 CP, 5x hunding rage, 4x night mother (purple, divines, nirn+precise/nirn), vampire for improved mag/sta regen, dubious camoran and weapon power buffs.

I know it's far from min-maxed, but I don't need more than 20k dps just yet on this char (I plan to change the de to magdk and pass all the gear to the redguard stablade I'm levelling). It seems like golding my weapons will help (I was told the difference was negligible, so never did).

One of the issues is sustain. Once I run out of stamina, my rotation goes out of the window. I also have issues with animation cancelling, I'm praticing but I don't want to spend all my gaming time in front of the dummy, so it's a slow progress. The third problem is that while I'm able to keep the rotation with a dummy, I have trouble to do it in a dungeon or trial, where I have to worry about boss moving, boss aoe, positioning, etc. My dps on a dummy is 15-17k, inside a trial it sometimes goes even below 10.

In a dungeon or trial setting most of time, if boss/mechanics happen, i just start my rotation over. So reapply dots and buffs etc. Seems to help.

Aebaradath · July 2018

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

The elitist echo chamber thread still going strong, huh?

Eh, you can't say there isn't *some* merit in what he said.

If you have ever used the matchmaking system and been the only solid player and experience the sheer pain of it, well then you know.

Or queued as a dps and watched the other dps using snipe and no aoe and running around with 11k health.

I'm hard-pressed to believe that considering the majority of posts of elitist ilk in this thread is just of the typical "you're wrong, I'm right" mentality that doesn't help anyone. The only thing I (partially) agree with is that a DPS should be able to hold his own and contribute to the group, but not that they need to use a specific set or need to pull the laughably stupid 50k minimum DPS that's being passed around in this thread.

Please quote any "elitist" from this thread who claims that you can't do vet dungeons if you do less than 50k. Seriously, try to find at least one.

I can't tell if you're blind or being deliberately dense.

Edit: Finding page 1 is hard, isn't it...

Edit 2: The "elite" players are more than welcome to throw me on ignore in-game. Saves me the hassle from doing it.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

...Point being, what's the criteria for someone just hobbling you because they want to be carried?

Someone who stands still and doesn't do anything; unwilling to learn the mechanics, only light/heavy attacks, ignores tips and advice... stuff like that. Not things like "too low" CP.

xirub17_ESO · July 2018

To throw my hat in the ring besides all the above, last night I had FOUR Healers leave Vet Scalecaller at the first time a player died at the boss fight. Our DPS was OK, it was a mechanics issue that was killing us, then later realized we were better served with the GM as the main DPS, and me switching to my Healer. I was the Tank, my friend swapped to his Tank.

Then we beat the dungeon.

Sometimes just switching around players gets the job done, versus crying and leaving at the smell of blood. Don't be that troll who runs away to Deeshan when the boss fight begins, then says you can never beat this dungeon.

MLGProPlayer · July 2018

Gargath wrote: »

Here my yesterday's normal pug in Selene's Web. The sorc dd from screen who was queueing in all roles and forgot to unmark them, constantly was pulling all mobs and bosses, with no healing and small dps (type of a player using 2 combat pets). The perfect example for an instant kick. Instead I let him stay and die first - as a real tank I was not taunting for a while because the fake tank was always first into battle. Was awaiting his death, obviously not resurrecting. So more vicious fun I had from watching him die than actually I'd have from kicking .

Normal Selene's Web can be soloed naked. There is no reason to kick anyone from a normal pledge when you have a CP 586 DPS. Unless that DPS was hot trash too, which I guess is entirely possible, although just light attacking at that CP will let you clear a normal dungeon with ease.

AbysmalGhul · July 2018

Conduit0 wrote: »

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Personally I'm good, I didn't need a lesson. I'm just saying most people still can't do 30k

You mean most people don't hit 30k, rather than can't hit 30k. Anyone can hit 30k, but most do not because they don't know how to perform a proper rotation or light attack weave.

Sure

ResTandRespeC · July 2018

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

The elitist echo chamber thread still going strong, huh?

Eh, you can't say there isn't *some* merit in what he said.

If you have ever used the matchmaking system and been the only solid player and experience the sheer pain of it, well then you know.

Or queued as a dps and watched the other dps using snipe and no aoe and running around with 11k health.

I'm hard-pressed to believe that considering the majority of posts of elitist ilk in this thread is just of the typical "you're wrong, I'm right" mentality that doesn't help anyone. The only thing I (partially) agree with is that a DPS should be able to hold his own and contribute to the group, but not that they need to use a specific set or need to pull the laughably stupid 50k minimum DPS that's being passed around in this thread.

Please quote any "elitist" from this thread who claims that you can't do vet dungeons if you do less than 50k. Seriously, try to find at least one.

I can't tell if you're blind or being deliberately dense.

Edit: Finding page 1 is hard, isn't it...

Edit 2: The "elite" players are more than welcome to throw me on ignore in-game. Saves me the hassle from doing it.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

...Point being, what's the criteria for someone just hobbling you because they want to be carried?

Someone who stands still and doesn't do anything; unwilling to learn the mechanics, only light/heavy attacks, ignores tips and advice... stuff like that. Not things like "too low" CP.

Lol cant find 1 person saying you have to do 50k dps. Were not the ones being dense. A couple people said most classes CAN*** pull 50k dps. Not that you have to.

Go check page 1 for yourself

if you want me to link all quotes containing any mention of dps i'd be happy too.

Likewise 99% arent talking about kicking people with low cp. The vast majority are saying the same thing you said at the end. People who are unwilling to learn, work on there character, and expect to be carried, deserve to be kicked.

What_In_Tarnation · July 2018

xirub17_ESO wrote: »

To throw my hat in the ring besides all the above, last night I had FOUR Healers leave Vet Scalecaller at the first time a player died at the boss fight. Our DPS was OK, it was a mechanics issue that was killing us, then later realized we were better served with the GM as the main DPS, and me switching to my Healer. I was the Tank, my friend swapped to his Tank.

Then we beat the dungeon.

Sometimes just switching around players gets the job done, versus crying and leaving at the smell of blood. Don't be that troll who runs away to Deeshan when the boss fight begins, then says you can never beat this dungeon.

If you have read OP's thread, then you'll know the players he called out mostly are : 1. Remain silence the whole time 2. Not willing communicated with group 3. Some of them got triggered even you're being polite.

One time I got a sub-160 stam sorc dps in vICP. And I'm play my stamplar dps. I ain't quit group and I know it's gonna be a long dungeon run. Why? Cause that player is willing to learn and listen. I explained every mechanics to him (and tank + healer). He still died a lot and I'm dealing 70% group damage at least. And yet I'm still not quit the group.

Because He''s willing to learn mechanics and listen.

The world could be better if we treat each other nicely

Yes, this is true. But it shouldn't be one sided only, I'm being nice to them and trying to make the group work together. Then they remain silence and not even wanna learn. I don't know what do they expected then.

This is why most of nice players got frustrated and don't really that cared anymore. The vote-kick feature is there, they use it. That's all.

JasmineMcCoy · July 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Have you tried doing HA (Heavy Attack) with every skill on front bar? That way you'll never run out of resources. The way to do it is to wait till about half way trough the HA animation and then press the skill button: Ex.

Buff with Molten Armaments, drink Essence of Weapon Power, swap bar
HA->Noxious Breath->HA->Venomous Claw->HA->Rending Slashes->HA*->Deadly Cloak->HA*->Rearming Trap->swap->LA->Flames of Oblivion->LA->Eldless Hail->LA->Poison Injection->LA->Razor Caltrops;
recast Molten Armaments every 2nd rotation to keep Minor Brutality up, drink potion when it's off cooldown.

*you can also do LA here instead in one or both cases if you are getting enough stamina back from the other 3 HA to speed the rotation up by about 0.6s

Make sure to have Alchemy: Medicinal Use 3/3, as otherwise it's impossible to keep 100% up time on Major Brutality & Savagery.

This kind of rotation will easily do 27-30K and has infinite sustain. Also HA rotations are not as vulnerable to lag or low FPS. LA only rotations on stamina characters are only achievable if you're Redguard, have full group support and you are very experienced with mechanics, so you don't have to burn extra resources blocking or breaking free from some mechanics you failed.

Hmm, I have now got rid of crushing weapon, since it appeared to do me no good, putting blade cloak in instead. Maybe I'm biased, but looks like my dps is getting closer to 20k (on the dummy). HA all the time seems overkill now, I guess I should go with LA with igenous weapons? Still can't see it doing 27-30k though. I will hop on PTS later to check how it works with max CP, golden weapons and caltrops.

MLGProPlayer · July 2018

xirub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, I do find 20-25k DPS as possible, but in my own experience, that level is not easily achievable for the "casual player".
Anything beyond that, is the realm beyond a casual player.

I literally posted a parse earlier in the thread hitting 22k with just light attacks and crafted/overland gear. Adding a few skills into the mix will easily push you over 25k. This is without any animation cancelling/weaving.

MLGProPlayer · July 2018

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

The elitist echo chamber thread still going strong, huh?

Eh, you can't say there isn't *some* merit in what he said.

If you have ever used the matchmaking system and been the only solid player and experience the sheer pain of it, well then you know.

Or queued as a dps and watched the other dps using snipe and no aoe and running around with 11k health.

I'm hard-pressed to believe that considering the majority of posts of elitist ilk in this thread is just of the typical "you're wrong, I'm right" mentality that doesn't help anyone. The only thing I (partially) agree with is that a DPS should be able to hold his own and contribute to the group, but not that they need to use a specific set or need to pull the laughably stupid 50k minimum DPS that's being passed around in this thread.

Strawman argument. No one in this thread said you need to use a specific set or pull 50k.

I challenge you to find a single post in this thread saying that.

LadyNalcarya · July 2018

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

The elitist echo chamber thread still going strong, huh?

Eh, you can't say there isn't *some* merit in what he said.

If you have ever used the matchmaking system and been the only solid player and experience the sheer pain of it, well then you know.

Or queued as a dps and watched the other dps using snipe and no aoe and running around with 11k health.

I'm hard-pressed to believe that considering the majority of posts of elitist ilk in this thread is just of the typical "you're wrong, I'm right" mentality that doesn't help anyone. The only thing I (partially) agree with is that a DPS should be able to hold his own and contribute to the group, but not that they need to use a specific set or need to pull the laughably stupid 50k minimum DPS that's being passed around in this thread.

Please quote any "elitist" from this thread who claims that you can't do vet dungeons if you do less than 50k. Seriously, try to find at least one.

I can't tell if you're blind or being deliberately dense.

Edit: Finding page 1 is hard, isn't it...

Edit 2: The "elite" players are more than welcome to throw me on ignore in-game. Saves me the hassle from doing it.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

...Point being, what's the criteria for someone just hobbling you because they want to be carried?

Someone who stands still and doesn't do anything; unwilling to learn the mechanics, only light/heavy attacks, ignores tips and advice... stuff like that. Not things like "too low" CP.

Um, I guess you're blind. They said "at least 30k" which is not 50k. For a decently geared cp 750+ (I guess they are cp750+) its possible.
And yeah, they said 50k is doable with BiS and they dont understand why anyone wants to have 15k when they can have 50k. But that's a different subject.

Agenericname · July 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

xirub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, I do find 20-25k DPS as possible, but in my own experience, that level is not easily achievable for the "casual player".
Anything beyond that, is the realm beyond a casual player.

I literally posted a parse earlier in the thread hitting 22k with just light attacks and crafted/overland gear. Adding a few skills into the mix will easily push you over 25k. This is without any animation cancelling/weaving.

After you posted that I tried it. My LAs were 9800, I'm in Julianos and Mother's Sorrow. I don't see how anyone is hitting those numbers.

If I were to take LA and add in a few DOTs, such as blockade and shards, without animation canceling, the damage isn't significantly increased. It does increase, but not to the tune 30, which has been suggested. I'd have to parse that again to get the exact number, because I did try it as well, but if I recall correctly is was close to 16k. The highest that I hit on a parse is around 25k with a full rotation. When I'm healing, which is most of the time, I get a slightly higher number but split between heals and damage.

I believe that a lot of people can easily hit 30k. I don't believe that's its as common for casuals and being represented here. I suppose that also depends on your definition of casual as well.

Asardes · July 2018

JasmineMcCoy wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Have you tried doing HA (Heavy Attack) with every skill on front bar? That way you'll never run out of resources. The way to do it is to wait till about half way trough the HA animation and then press the skill button: Ex.

Buff with Molten Armaments, drink Essence of Weapon Power, swap bar
HA->Noxious Breath->HA->Venomous Claw->HA->Rending Slashes->HA*->Deadly Cloak->HA*->Rearming Trap->swap->LA->Flames of Oblivion->LA->Eldless Hail->LA->Poison Injection->LA->Razor Caltrops;
recast Molten Armaments every 2nd rotation to keep Minor Brutality up, drink potion when it's off cooldown.

*you can also do LA here instead in one or both cases if you are getting enough stamina back from the other 3 HA to speed the rotation up by about 0.6s

Make sure to have Alchemy: Medicinal Use 3/3, as otherwise it's impossible to keep 100% up time on Major Brutality & Savagery.

This kind of rotation will easily do 27-30K and has infinite sustain. Also HA rotations are not as vulnerable to lag or low FPS. LA only rotations on stamina characters are only achievable if you're Redguard, have full group support and you are very experienced with mechanics, so you don't have to burn extra resources blocking or breaking free from some mechanics you failed.

Hmm, I have now got rid of crushing weapon, since it appeared to do me no good, putting blade cloak in instead. Maybe I'm biased, but looks like my dps is getting closer to 20k (on the dummy). HA all the time seems overkill now, I guess I should go with LA with igenous weapons? Still can't see it doing 27-30k though. I will hop on PTS later to check how it works with max CP, golden weapons and caltrops.

Ctushing Weapon is worth using in anorher kind of rotation that is all LA on the front bar, otherwise your back bar DOTs will run out since HA takes longer than LA. Using it just once or twice in a rotation that mixes HA & LA is a DPS loss.

As for sustain on dummy 2-3 HA suffice but with other drains you may have to adapt it with more. You can replace them with LA where I put * if your stamina stays mostly full. Deadly Cloak doesn't do much DPS, it's mostly a defensive skill that helps you mitigate AoE damage, which is quite high in some veteran dungeons or trials.

Weapons must be fully upgraded since they not only contribute a bit towards raising the set bonuses, but quite a lot in raising your Weapon Damage stat. All skills as well as LA/HA scale on weapon damage + maximum stamina/10.5. Ex. the difference between a gold and purple CP160 bow is 191 before multipliers and 270 or so after. It's even more for a pair of daggers since the offhand weapon damage counts for 20% extra. So you're looking at 8-10% weapon damage loss or 4-5% overall DPS loss from just not having them upgraded.

Swen_von_Walhallion · July 2018

dem0n1k wrote: »

I've done all the non-dlc vet dungeons in the game with 2 x DPS that were pulling less than 15k DPS on the 3m target dummy.... just sayin' This was with friends though... no pugs.

well 2x 15k dps is fine for vet dungs, Yestarday in vBC i have luck on "amazing group" when group DPS was at best 20k from which 4-6k was make by me as templar tank. And on final boss this 3 guys die mebe 5-10times each. Thx God for my build bc i nearl no need healing. And they all was over 300CP. I rly dont get how is possible get with DD under 10k dps this days.... with my stamplar i havee no problem hit 35k dps on solo skeleton, and over 50k with trial buffs, and i i not best player and my rotation is far away from be perfect.

Asardes · July 2018

I can do 10-12K DPS just buffing and keeping the attack button pressed at the dummy for constant heavy attacks. So just the heavy attack and the enchant, no other skills, nothing.

aetherial_heavenn · July 2018

Cannot believe how many replies didn't read the OP.

1 After months of ./played helping pugs to complete vet dungeons a player finally decided 'enough is enough' and vents their frustration. They are venting because they are now playing a vet healer and cannot carry an inept group through vet... They then decide their time and experience is worth more than the 'fun' they get carrying others and the insults they receive from random group members for even trying to do so. So they say 'no more'.
2 The usual forum stalwarts then copy paste their premade 'elitist' name calling posts saying OP is obliged to not kick people who cannot complete the content, or follow the mechanics in vet and that the OP has an obligation to carry every random stranger even on their healer.
3 Another group of forum regulars chorus 'don't use the dungeon finder. If you do,then don't whine when it goes horribly wrong.'

The conclusion: if you queue thru dungeon finder for vet, your job is to carry anyone who queues for vet no matter what their gear, level, or competence, even if you are a healer! Even if you take an hour to do last boss. Even if you have to solo the whole catastrophe in spc and worm. Because if you don't YOU are the jerk. It's only your time, elitist, and YOUR time doesn't matter.

People happily say in public forums (and in group chat) that those who know what to do in harder content have an attitude problem when we suggest gear and supply food and explain the mechanics. We get called narcissists and sociopaths.

So we leave the DF queues or just quietly leave the group at the first failed dps check...

Soon you will get what you want, anti elitist forum warriors:
No more 'attitude' problems
No more content experts (aka 'elitists' in the forums)
No one to show new people how hard dlc is done relatively painlessly and quickly.
No excess motiffs etc.on the market.
No integration between new players who want to do end game and experienced players.
No recruitment of new players into progression guilds.
No carries thru gear farms.
And hours and hours wasted never finishing vet 2 and vet dlc content because 'it's only a game and i should be able to do what I want.'

Hope this makes you all happy, forum warriors. After all it's only your time being wasted. Not mine. Not any more.

I still have a guild of competent players to enjoy the game with. I just don't bother DF queuing anymore

Edited typos spelling phrasing and last para. Hate typing on my phone.

Aurielle · July 2018

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

Cannot believe how many replies didn't read the OP.

1 After months of ./played helping pugs to complete vet dungeons a player finally decided 'enough is enough' and vents their frustration. They are venting because they are now playing a vet healer and cannot carry an inept group through vet... They then decide their time and experience is worth more than the 'fun' they get carrying others and the insults they receive from random group members for even trying to do so. So they say 'no more'.
2 The usual forum stalwarts then copy paste their premade 'elitist' name calling posts saying OP is obliged to not kick people who cannot complete the content, or follow the mechanics in vet and that the OP has an obligation to carry every random stranger even on their healer.
3 Another group of forum regulars chorus 'don't use the dungeon finder. If you do,then don't whine when it goes horribly wrong.'

The conclusion: if you queue thru dungeon finder for vet, your job is to carry anyone who queues for vet no matter what their gear, level, or competence, even if you are a healer! Even if you take an hour to do last boss.Even if you have to solo the whole catastrophe in spc and worm. Because if you don't YOU are the jerk.

Sorry not buying that. This game used to be full of peoole like the OP who taught pugs thru dungeon finder. Less so these days, largely because the attitude of some recent players.

These people happily say in public forums (and in group chat) that those who know what to do in harder content have an attitude problem when we suggest gear and supply food and explain the mechanics. We get called narcisdists and sociopaths.

So we leave the DF queues or just quietly leave the group at the first failed dps check...

Soon you will get what you want anti elitists:
No more attitude problems
No more content experts (aka elitists in the forums)
No one to show new people how hard dlc is done relatively painlessly and quickly.
No excess motiffs etc.on the market.
No integration between new players who want to do end game and experienced players.
No recruitment into progression guilds.
No carries thru gear farms.

Hope this makes you all very happy.

If I could give you an “insightful” and an “awesome,” I would. I settled on awesome.

I am always amazed by the sense of entitlement people often have when playing tough group content that requires ALL members to pull their own weight. Why is it so hard for them to grasp the idea that EVERYONE has a responsibility to perform at their best? Maybe it’s just because I’m an old school MMORPG player who remembers the days when people had to group up to complete overland QUESTS, let alone instanced content... but I just don’t get it. How can anyone be so egocentric that they can’t recognize they’re dragging other people down?

Seriously, people, if you do terrible DPS, please try to improve your performance before grouping up with random strangers to complete the hardest content in the game. Calling us “elitist” when we vote to kick you due to your inability to contribute or listen to our advice achieves nothing.

Gprime31 · July 2018

Ughhh TLDR version?

munster1404 · July 2018

I peak at around 20K DPS. Guess concepts like weaving consistently or muscle memory don't really work out for me. This is one of the reason why I converted half of my alts to Tanks. Hold block, taunt, apply debuffs. It's less annoying and less tiresome for my fingers.

ZarkingFrued · July 2018

Is no one gonna point out that this is a rant the size of a novel, not a forum post? But seriously, I get ya. When I tank a pug I'm usually waiting way to long tanking, shielding everyone, healing everyone, rezing everyone, restoring their resources at the cost of my own, 1v1ing the last bit of a bosses health because everyone else wiped and I'm tired of picking them up to see them wipe again before they even fire an ability. I spent an hour in Arx one day. Never again. If you're wondering, I'm the guy who initiated the vote to kick you from the dungeon every time. However, I do think asking everyone regardless of CP to get 30k plus dps is a little ridiculous, 20k each dps is at least a reasonable wait time for them to be able to get the monster sets they're after or whatever.

ceil420 · July 2018

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

adeptusminor wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

ItsNebula wrote: »

30k This patch is literally throwing down AOEs, DOTs and using your spamable and popping ult when ready.

No, no it isn't.

It really is. This was with just light attacks+spammable/trap/merciless resolve and execute. Not even using any AOEs, DoTs or ults

Yea, with zaan and bis gear. How can you think casual without basic understanding of veteran stuff etc, could achieve them?

You know, that just shows how far away from realism you elitists have wandered.

What is easy to you, might be too hard and therefore not interesting enough to complete for some.

Here is just light attacks + AOE DoTs with crafted + overland gear (sure there is a monster set, but it's only 1.2k DPS). No spammable. No buffs, not even ele drain (only a brief major sorcery from the netch I cast for sustain).

That's 22k from just spamming light attack and casting AOE DoTs when the old ones expire.

Mix a spammable in there and keep up your buffs, and you're easily looking at 25k+ DPS. Anyone who can't hit these numbers has absolutely no business doing vet content.

First post in this thread from an "elitist" that I tagged 'Insightful'. People aren't getting 30k by rolling their faces across their keyboard - they're getting 30k with good gear and a decent knowledge of buffs and keeping uptime on DoTs. 20k is much more manageable with non-BiS gear and only a basic understanding of how a rotation works, and is a better stepping stone than "omg do 30k right nao or gtfo!". To be honest, I wish more skilled players would post screenshots like this one so newer players like me (<1mo into the game, haven't hit 50 yet - I'm an altaholic -.-) can actually see a real goalpost before we start queuing for Vet Dungeons.

I'm personally not going to queue for Vet anything until I've done all the normal dungeons, got at least a solid crafted 50c160 set, and can consistently do 20k+ ST (I can occasionally hit 17-18k in trash pulls). I like to think I'm not part of the problem the OP outlined with such spiteful vitriol (which really wasn't necessary), as I'm not personally going to queue for vets until I can pull weight.

Toxicity of the OP makes me kinda consider against queuing for pugs at all, but I like to think his ilk is still the minority in this game. That kind of spiteful attitude is certainly unhealthy for any MMO's community, though, and isn't doing anybody any favours. If the OP were the quoted post - just calling people out and letting them know that 20k DPS is achieveable without special gear or years of practice - that would have been a much better message to send, and would likely have been better received by those that do need to hear it.

Merlin13KAGL · July 2018

Isildurrr wrote: »

I know your pain man, I Was in a group and the other dd (think his name was wealthy or weath or something) only pulled 11k dps ST on the boss, the fight lasted about 25 minutes. It was bad

@Isildurrr Hyperbole much? Which 21 million HP boss were you fighting in 4 man content?

What_In_Tarnation wrote: »

@What_In_Tarnation , this (my response) has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Wouldn't your meme work better if you replaced the picture with a handheld blender?

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

I know this is a bit off topic, but as someone who has only PUG'd twice in her life, I wondered:

On NORMAL difficulty:

If you end up in a dungeon you haven't done before and don't know the mechanics, is it considered wise to say so and ask for explanations? Or, since it's normal mode, just wing it? Is the very admission that you don't know the mechanics grounds for being kicked? I'm thinking especially of later DLC dungeons with more complicated/difficult mechanics.

xirub17_ESO wrote: »

Or in the same measure, maybe your trying out tanking for the first time, and also trying to learn how, plus the mechanics?

@Ghanima_Atreides @xirub17_ESO , absolutely say something at the start. A quick "never been here before" and/or "I'm a bit new to the role, so bear with me." Will suffice. I won't even call it a recommendation so much as an obligation on your part. Most people will tend to be a lot more forgiving and flexible if they know this upfront, rather than have to extract it out of you later.

It generally won't be as big of a deal on norm, and the group will likely still be just 'winging it,' but if you do start to run into issues, you'll be far more likely to get granted explanations and/or suggestions to help clear the content.

Don't try to fake your way through it, because it will become painfully obvious to any experienced group. Deception through omission will get you kicked far faster than being legit honest and being somewhat inexperienced.

*EDIT: If you've you're BS'ing your role for faster queue time, expect to get the axe every single time. IDGAF if it's norm or not - do your role.

Some will still take the time to give you the high points in chat. No need to pre-read a guide or watch a video, either. Everyone figured it out the old fashioned way at one point. Nothing wrong with that at all. It can be part of the fun and I would argue makes you better at your role, your class, and group play in general.

This flip side of this is don't expect someone to copy/paste the text equivalent of a full guide in chat for you, either. Expect a summary and some suggestions, as things progress.

Anyone can try to do what a guide or a video tells you to do. A good, cohesive group will be able to adjust for each other and the situation. Understanding why is worth 10x more than understanding what, any day of the week.

(Be the one to write the guide, not just the one to read it, and you'll find you can navigate any new content given enough time to sort it out.)

I've promised to drop group on new content in some cases if my goal is to experience it blind for that very purpose. I'll indicate that is my intention upfront ("I want to figure this out as I go, I purposely didn't PTS for this reason") and it's usually with a premade group, but doesn't always have to be.

I don't necessarily care if you've looked at a guide in that case, but unless I'm stuck or just can't seem to figure something out, give opportunity to do so.

Until you're experienced, I would probably recommend always starting with the Norm version, though, even if only to get a feel for what's going on.

There are experienced, good players that are not necessarily elitists and still willing to help.

Not everyone has the hatchet in one hand, ready to lop off another player at a moments' notice.

And not everyone is automatically a narcissistic ass that thinks every aspect in the game is there for their benefit, and their benefit alone.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Never do dungeons with strangers. Only let a pug in if just to fill out the queue then vote and kick the extra immediately. Life will be simpler.

This is why games with moderated servers are nice.
People that do this kind of crap should be banned from using the feature.

Those things being said:

Be willing to listen and take advice, even if it entails doing things a little differently than you normally would.
- This doesn't mean there is only one way, but if someone's taking the time to teach, be willing to learn.
- Don't make assumptions about the person offering the advice either (you'll likely be more wrong than you know). That not-X-role person with 200 CP's less than you that seems to know every nuance of the dungeon probably does so for a reason (second account, platform swap, whatever). You might find they have more experience than the rest of the group combined, but if you make assumptions and refuse to listen, that gem they're trying to gift you will quickly be given to another group.
Don't be afraid to ask questions or make suggestions. Remember, this is how people got better at one time, even if they, themselves, have forgotten that part.
If you don't understand why something has to go a certain way, say so. Can be as simple as "Why are we standing here / focusing this add down?" or even "What is that skill/effect I keep seeing/dying to? How do I / can I counter it?
Be willing to accept that a clear simply may not be in your (group's) future.
- Sometimes a group can't get it done, for any of a handful of reasons. Be willing to accept that honest, constructive indication and move on. Learn from the experience and your whole group will improve. This can be any of the roles, bugs, fatigue, whatever.
- Beating your collective head against an immovable brick wall will only serve to frustrate and discourage. (Even the best groups can have off days.) A good group lead will see this and say something.

A good lead/group will give a weak link a chance to exit the group of their own accord, having no hard feelings and taking some wisdom as they go. You many not never get kicked, but so long as you've been upfront and honest, and tried your best, you should at least be given an explanation why.

It doesn't necessarily mean you're bad - it may just mean you're not quite ready.