[Class Rep] Templar Feedback Thread

BohnT · June 2018

A huge part of making templars better is fixing the bugs.
There isn't a single skill line of the templar that hasn't atleast one bug plagued ability.
Most noticeable are jabs, Templar airforce, javalin knockback, PotL not firing, beam continuing to deal damage through walls etc.

Stamplar with fixed abilities and some more sustain would be absolutely fantastic, a proper CC and maybe some better passives and we are looking at a threatening spec that can compete in todays meta

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2018

casparian wrote: »

show previous quotes

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

the feedback we got so far is very diverse and i would say, that we got as much feedback about magplars as we got about stamplars. atm very serious concerns are about the lack of sustain for stamplars, meanwhile magplars have more problme swith the clunky skills, channels and dps. also a top concern are the passives, which for example are mostly unusable for stamplars. last huge pain point seems to be the defence of templars, especially rune focus was mentioned very often. also a second source of defense mechanic was wished for by many players. most feedback was centered around those points and therefore those are the things we will definitely look at next meeting.

I hope that consideration includes more than StamDDPlar and MagDDPlar. There are Tanks as well. Healer is fairly well included in the MagDDPlar distinction so I suppose that goes without saying. The game focuses far too much on damage dealers now as it is in many ways. Lets not keep pushing that forward unless the developers some day offer us a convenient build-swapping mechanic.

@dodgehopper_ESO a major point of consensus (I think) in the various recent discussions about fixing templar has been that we need better stamina sustain and better area control abilities, as well as an update of some kind to Radiant Ward. To my mind, fixing those issues would go a long way toward addressing the major tankplar pain points. Do you think there are other issues that tankplars would like to see addressed?

No, I think those do speak to the concerns. I just want to make sure when they discuss the class it is not forgotten. Damage Dealers have had way too much voice on the forums as it is in my view. Damage dealing has warped this game. It is called power creep and we've all felt it. It isn't just the CP either. Power Creep comes in the form of gear. It comes in the form of lifting damage caps. I'm not against damage dealers but I do think this is a pinch point for all classes, and I just wanted to make sure our representative keeps all of the angles in mind. I'm not suggesting they aren't or wouldn't. I just want to make sure it is thought of.

Edit: I'd like to add that I've always liked the notion of a Templar Tank. They are clearly Knights/Healers/Holy Mages in theme. With that in mind I find it a bit disappointing that among the 5 classes available Templar is the least enjoyable tank for me to play lately. So much so that were I able to I'd likely change my main Templar into a Dragon Knight if given the option, and yet I'd prefer the golden heroic animations.

aeowulf · June 2018

1) Stamina sustain in groups (waiting for a corpse)

2) Stamina sustain in groups (corpses not shared)

Both are particularly evident when tanking.

casparian · June 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Templar airforce

lol I really want to know what ability you're talking about here

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

casparian wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

the feedback we got so far is very diverse and i would say, that we got as much feedback about magplars as we got about stamplars. atm very serious concerns are about the lack of sustain for stamplars, meanwhile magplars have more problme swith the clunky skills, channels and dps. also a top concern are the passives, which for example are mostly unusable for stamplars. last huge pain point seems to be the defence of templars, especially rune focus was mentioned very often. also a second source of defense mechanic was wished for by many players. most feedback was centered around those points and therefore those are the things we will definitely look at next meeting.

I hope that consideration includes more than StamDDPlar and MagDDPlar. There are Tanks as well. Healer is fairly well included in the MagDDPlar distinction so I suppose that goes without saying. The game focuses far too much on damage dealers now as it is in many ways. Lets not keep pushing that forward unless the developers some day offer us a convenient build-swapping mechanic.

@dodgehopper_ESO a major point of consensus (I think) in the various recent discussions about fixing templar has been that we need better stamina sustain and better area control abilities, as well as an update of some kind to Radiant Ward. To my mind, fixing those issues would go a long way toward addressing the major tankplar pain points. Do you think there are other issues that tankplars would like to see addressed?

No, I think those do speak to the concerns. I just want to make sure when they discuss the class it is not forgotten. Damage Dealers have had way too much voice on the forums as it is in my view. Damage dealing has warped this game. It is called power creep and we've all felt it. It isn't just the CP either. Power Creep comes in the form of gear. It comes in the form of lifting damage caps. I'm not against damage dealers but I do think this is a pinch point for all classes, and I just wanted to make sure our representative keeps all of the angles in mind. I'm not suggesting they aren't or wouldn't. I just want to make sure it is thought of.

I agree with all this (for PVE). Damage dealing is clearly the spec they have put the most thought and effort into designing, and with all the power creep we're really feeling how out of whack that has made PVE nowadays.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2018

casparian wrote: »

show previous quotes

BohnT wrote: »

Templar airforce

lol I really want to know what ability you're talking about here
show previous quotes

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

the feedback we got so far is very diverse and i would say, that we got as much feedback about magplars as we got about stamplars. atm very serious concerns are about the lack of sustain for stamplars, meanwhile magplars have more problme swith the clunky skills, channels and dps. also a top concern are the passives, which for example are mostly unusable for stamplars. last huge pain point seems to be the defence of templars, especially rune focus was mentioned very often. also a second source of defense mechanic was wished for by many players. most feedback was centered around those points and therefore those are the things we will definitely look at next meeting.

I hope that consideration includes more than StamDDPlar and MagDDPlar. There are Tanks as well. Healer is fairly well included in the MagDDPlar distinction so I suppose that goes without saying. The game focuses far too much on damage dealers now as it is in many ways. Lets not keep pushing that forward unless the developers some day offer us a convenient build-swapping mechanic.

@dodgehopper_ESO a major point of consensus (I think) in the various recent discussions about fixing templar has been that we need better stamina sustain and better area control abilities, as well as an update of some kind to Radiant Ward. To my mind, fixing those issues would go a long way toward addressing the major tankplar pain points. Do you think there are other issues that tankplars would like to see addressed?

No, I think those do speak to the concerns. I just want to make sure when they discuss the class it is not forgotten. Damage Dealers have had way too much voice on the forums as it is in my view. Damage dealing has warped this game. It is called power creep and we've all felt it. It isn't just the CP either. Power Creep comes in the form of gear. It comes in the form of lifting damage caps. I'm not against damage dealers but I do think this is a pinch point for all classes, and I just wanted to make sure our representative keeps all of the angles in mind. I'm not suggesting they aren't or wouldn't. I just want to make sure it is thought of.

I agree with all this (for PVE). Damage dealing is clearly the spec they have put the most thought and effort into designing, and with all the power creep we're really feeling how out of whack that has made PVE nowadays.

I think Templar Airforce is Toppling/Explosive Charge. I agree with him. I want this ability to work so badly and it can be extremely buggy. I've found it to be the most buggy charge in the game over the years, which is why I always tell them they should paint Ambush golden and call it a day.

BohnT · June 2018

casparian wrote: »

show previous quotes

BohnT wrote: »

Templar airforce

lol I really want to know what ability you're talking about here
show previous quotes

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

the feedback we got so far is very diverse and i would say, that we got as much feedback about magplars as we got about stamplars. atm very serious concerns are about the lack of sustain for stamplars, meanwhile magplars have more problme swith the clunky skills, channels and dps. also a top concern are the passives, which for example are mostly unusable for stamplars. last huge pain point seems to be the defence of templars, especially rune focus was mentioned very often. also a second source of defense mechanic was wished for by many players. most feedback was centered around those points and therefore those are the things we will definitely look at next meeting.

I hope that consideration includes more than StamDDPlar and MagDDPlar. There are Tanks as well. Healer is fairly well included in the MagDDPlar distinction so I suppose that goes without saying. The game focuses far too much on damage dealers now as it is in many ways. Lets not keep pushing that forward unless the developers some day offer us a convenient build-swapping mechanic.

@dodgehopper_ESO a major point of consensus (I think) in the various recent discussions about fixing templar has been that we need better stamina sustain and better area control abilities, as well as an update of some kind to Radiant Ward. To my mind, fixing those issues would go a long way toward addressing the major tankplar pain points. Do you think there are other issues that tankplars would like to see addressed?

No, I think those do speak to the concerns. I just want to make sure when they discuss the class it is not forgotten. Damage Dealers have had way too much voice on the forums as it is in my view. Damage dealing has warped this game. It is called power creep and we've all felt it. It isn't just the CP either. Power Creep comes in the form of gear. It comes in the form of lifting damage caps. I'm not against damage dealers but I do think this is a pinch point for all classes, and I just wanted to make sure our representative keeps all of the angles in mind. I'm not suggesting they aren't or wouldn't. I just want to make sure it is thought of.

I agree with all this (for PVE). Damage dealing is clearly the spec they have put the most thought and effort into designing, and with all the power creep we're really feeling how out of whack that has made PVE nowadays.

Templar airforce is focused charge.
A friend of mine named it like this after he posted a video on teamspeak in which a helicopter crashes when he got a loading screen when using the ability 2 minutes later and his reaction was: it's not working just like the damn airforce.

casparian · June 2018

BohnT wrote: »

show previous quotes

casparian wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Templar airforce

lol I really want to know what ability you're talking about here

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

the feedback we got so far is very diverse and i would say, that we got as much feedback about magplars as we got about stamplars. atm very serious concerns are about the lack of sustain for stamplars, meanwhile magplars have more problme swith the clunky skills, channels and dps. also a top concern are the passives, which for example are mostly unusable for stamplars. last huge pain point seems to be the defence of templars, especially rune focus was mentioned very often. also a second source of defense mechanic was wished for by many players. most feedback was centered around those points and therefore those are the things we will definitely look at next meeting.

I hope that consideration includes more than StamDDPlar and MagDDPlar. There are Tanks as well. Healer is fairly well included in the MagDDPlar distinction so I suppose that goes without saying. The game focuses far too much on damage dealers now as it is in many ways. Lets not keep pushing that forward unless the developers some day offer us a convenient build-swapping mechanic.

@dodgehopper_ESO a major point of consensus (I think) in the various recent discussions about fixing templar has been that we need better stamina sustain and better area control abilities, as well as an update of some kind to Radiant Ward. To my mind, fixing those issues would go a long way toward addressing the major tankplar pain points. Do you think there are other issues that tankplars would like to see addressed?

No, I think those do speak to the concerns. I just want to make sure when they discuss the class it is not forgotten. Damage Dealers have had way too much voice on the forums as it is in my view. Damage dealing has warped this game. It is called power creep and we've all felt it. It isn't just the CP either. Power Creep comes in the form of gear. It comes in the form of lifting damage caps. I'm not against damage dealers but I do think this is a pinch point for all classes, and I just wanted to make sure our representative keeps all of the angles in mind. I'm not suggesting they aren't or wouldn't. I just want to make sure it is thought of.

I agree with all this (for PVE). Damage dealing is clearly the spec they have put the most thought and effort into designing, and with all the power creep we're really feeling how out of whack that has made PVE nowadays.

Templar airforce is focused charge.
A friend of mine named it like this after he posted a video on teamspeak in which a helicopter crashes when he got a loading screen when using the ability 2 minutes later and his reaction was: it's not working just like the damn airforce.

I'm going to call it this from now on

Joy_Division · June 2018

Thanks @Cinbri !

Khivas_Carrick · June 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to give you a place to post your current top two pain points with the Templar. Our new Class Representatives will be keeping a close eye on this thread, and will utilize it to gather additional feedback for the notes they’re currently compiling for their first meeting with the Dev Team next week. Please be sure and keep your post clear and succinct, and focus more on what is currently frustrating you rather than potential solutions. Thanks!

Ma`am, you're gonna need a lot more than two points to describe why this class is doing so god damn poorly.

To try and follow your crudely suggested model though, the two biggest pain points with Templar is this:

1) Class Passives are kinda terrible and need a dire rework, especially if anybody wants to be a Stamina Templar.

2) Increase the range and damage of the Sweeps Ultimates. There is no reason for it to be that weak and that short of range.

Now to add properly to the real list, here are some things that y'all really ought to consider:

3) The Javelin Skills need a rework for stamina characters methinks, make one ranged and for magicka players and tanks, and make the stamina version a melee skill.

4) Focused Charge should have a Stamina variant, and should be a targeted leap instead of a targeted charge.

5) Biting Jabs as someone already mentioned should be condensed to 3 hits instead of 4, and channeled over .8 instead of 1.1 seconds. This would help greatly in PvP and help a little in PvE.

6) Blazing Spear should be a Stamina Morph.

7) This is purely me being a nerd and wanting something personally for myself so tbh disregard this entirely, but Vampire's Bane should be a melee touch spell that scales with Stamina so we get a cool as hell Anti-Vampire move lol

8) Solar Barrage should not have a cast time attached to it imho, but since you do, make it burst every second instead of every 2 seconds.

9) PotL/Purifying Light should be slightly reworked for it's damage aspect. The Breach and Fracture parts are ok on it, but the Initial Damage should be increased and there should be a hefty, semi-bursty DoT on it rather than saving up for a big burst of damage.

10) I can't believe I almost forgot this, but Burning Light should Proc off of ALL damaging skills, or at the very least all Spear skills and any and all DoT skills. This opens up a grand avenue for build variety.

11) Balanced Warrior should be reworked a bit. It should benefit both Casters and Melee equally in some way for damage, which shouldn't be hard to achieve.

12) Piercing Spear should be reworked to include passive Penetration (giggity)

I've been up since 4am, so if this is a little rough, forgive me lol I have faith that ZoS can figure this out without totally ruining the *** out of us.

Checkmath · June 2018

@dodgehopper_ESO
I heard you mate and hope that a change to rune focus and some inbuilt stamina sustain also helps out tanks. I know thrre is much more to do, sun shield is bad, the new healing rituel is kind of dumb, there is no real class hot (healing ritual would be a sweet spot for that). I can keep going on with all the feedback i got, and most of it was already knows before the rep program even started. But the first meeting is this week and the next update is also scheduled soon (august i think update 19 will come). There is too much feedback, not only for templars and it is impossible for the dev team to implement it all, thats why you guys are asked to state yourr top 2 pain points, because there will not be much more than 2-4 changes for each class with next update (if wrobel actually implements anything at all

). Once more, we cant expect much more than those few changes with the next update, but i am well aware that templars need much more updates to feel right again.
@Cinbri your bug list was sent to gina by me too a week ago. I will bring it up at the meeting once again and hope we will see some fixes there too.

Minno · June 2018

Vajrak wrote: »

I like how most of the complaints are in regards to PvP...

Nova is good vs Zergs, Empowering Sweep good for self for a chunk of reduced damage incoming that stacks with shields.

PvP is balanced around "I R 9 million!" -- i.e. it's not balanced, so bad thing to try to balance around.
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technohic wrote: »

I'm playing magplar again after playing stamplar for a while and I can say that both sides, our sustain tools are poor.

Stamina is near non existent. Only available after a fight and not at all if another templar used the corpse. Magplar we have channeled focus, but 150 barely registers and you have to either be standing in a small circle or recast every 8 seconds. Buff needs to stick or last longer outside the circle.

Restoring aura also winds up with not much help being outclassed by elemental drain due to the cost. Id recommend making it free or 1/3 of what it cost now and then I'd suggest repentance to no longer restore stamina from corpses, but become the stamina steal version of the skill and keep the heal from corpses.

Our stuns and CC are terrible. We are one of 2 out of 5 classes without unblock-able CC. We used to have luminous shards for that. I would like to see javelin not knock people back but rather stagger its target for 2-3 seconds forcing them to drop block.

Our melee spammable is unreliable to land and out DPSed by ranged destro staff spammables. If you have to be in melee, I think there should be reward for the risk of being there. Damage should be raised slightly, enough to outpace a ranged counterpart. The 2 second snare should be applied on the first hit in stead of the last.

I like the idea of having sun shield and morphs scale off health but the percentage is from days past to where it is no longer relevant. When Battle Spirit got raised to 50% off shield strength, it forced it to niche troll builds. Then when some health sets were nerfed in Morrowing (i believe) it pretty much eradicated the use of this. Before either of those things, a Templar house could have been called a thing as people did not want to be on top of the templar. That's long gone. I suggest raise the percentage, and put a cap on it to prevent troll builds

Stamplar used to carry a templar flavor in that it had the best healing with major mending while in extended ritual. That has long since passed and stamplar has become almost completely generic outside of stacking the usually stamina DPS archetype with POTL. We could use some templar flavor brought back into the class. Passives have been terible so maybe something with that?

Ultimates are underwhelming. Restoring Lights ultimates seem outdone by resto staff to me due to the channel. I understand Nova has its uses in PvE and situationally in PvP but its way too expensive IMO to drop stationary and have people just easily move out of its area. . Crescent Sweep and empowering sweep should be swapped on which scales off magicka and stamina and the radius needs increased to 10 meters to match dawn breaker range.

Stamina Templar heavy weaves quite well --- so well in fact that if you are stamina starved, maybe it's your rotation, NOT the class?

Channeled Focus gives 120/0.5s --- or equivalent of 480 mag recovery -- and the circle isn't all that small, since weapons have a decent reach, as do spells. Restoring aura gives you the 10% all along with AoE magsteal, so you can steal from multiple targets when dealing with trash mobs instead of having to recast ele-drain EVERY time; Repentance as a stamina steal could be useful.

Our stuns/cc are terrible, agreed there.

Mele spammable unreliable to land -- have you tried moving your toon AND camera at the same time? you can actually spin it around a point, and destro can't spam extra hits from burning light --- pretty fair, though it could use a slight base increase.

Sun shield and morphs DO scale off of health, 37% of your max health --- I literally just finished tanking a run able to happily spam my 14k+ shield every time it dropped.

You want to stop feeling 'generic' on Stamplar? Stop playing generic, consider that there are other options and a lot of lateral moves in the supposed meta. Nova is a bit high, but 30% maim, slow field, and DoT plus burst capability is pretty strong for that cost.

If you switch Crescent and Empowering --- you just end up punishing magplar (where you can spam empowering to be able to melee, and get extra procs off of burning light) in exchange for frontloaded damage...and its cost is incredible low for magplar AND stamplar. Increasing the range on Crescent maybe, but on Empowering? It'd become rather overpowered when properly used.

You know that because of the lack of sustain and defensive options, other stam classes can use those sets much better than templar, right?

and swapping cresant/empowering is a good move. Stamplar needs the defense, magplar needs the burst (because magplar can use things like pirate skeleton/eclipse/mending passive with a burst heal to be tanky but stamplar can use dawnbreaker/high WD stacking/and large amount of skills to add burst/dmg). If you don't switch it, both dmg types will still be using dawnbreaker for burst, and the secondary ultimate is usually just empowering sweeps for the spear passive but otherwise unused.

NobleX35 · June 2018

I only play Stamina Templar so here are my main two pain points:

1. Stamina Templars need more sustain options
2. Stamina Templars need better defense tools. For instance the rune should either persist a lot longer after leaving or should have as large a radius as extended ritual.

I wouldnt be apposed to the idea of adding stamina steal to repentance in addition to the stamina return from corpses; however, I hate the idea of taking away the stamina return from corpses altogether. This is one of the most unique skills in the game and “can be” a phenomenal resource tool. Id much rather it be revert back to the way it once worked where it provides stamina back to everyone in the group (even if it is a smaller amount than the Templar receives).

tplink3r1 · June 2018

1. Magplars just don't have the tools to put pressure on the enemy in a 1v1 scenario.
Am i the only who feels this way? When i am playing a magplar, i am nearly always on the defensive, while this is not the case with a stamplar. We used to have Blazing Shield for this, but now we only have Eclipse, and while it can be very effective against a few unaware/low skilled players, it is useless against everyone else.

2. All ultimates are garbage for PVP.
If you are a healer/support, the healing ulti might be an exception.

tplink3r1 · June 2018

Here's an extra:
Revert the Radiant Destruction tick rate/speed nerf.

technohic · June 2018

tplink3r1 wrote: »

1. Magplars just don't have the tools to put pressure on the enemy in a 1v1 scenario.
Am i the only who feels this way? When i am playing a magplar, i am nearly always on the defensive, while this is not the case with a stamplar. Eclipse can be very effective against unaware/low skilled players, but that's it.

2. All ultimates are garbage for PVP.
If you are a healer/support, the healing ulti might be an exception.

1 is a big issue. Can cast BOL all you want. Lack the CC or offensive capability to flip out of being defensive. Started using Rapid Regen more myself to give me at least that proactive healing my Stamplar uses with vigor to ease the incoming damage. Only problem still is can’t dodge roll like Stamplar nor block as well now that using 1h and shield is sacrificing even more on a magicka character with how potent light attacks just became. Frost staff just hits the resource pool a bit hard

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2018

tplink3r1 wrote: »

1. Magplars just don't have the tools to put pressure on the enemy in a 1v1 scenario.
Am i the only who feels this way? When i am playing a magplar, i am nearly always on the defensive, while this is not the case with a stamplar. We used to have Blazing Shield for this, but now we only have Eclipse, and while it can be very effective against a few unaware/low skilled players, it is useless against everyone else.

2. All ultimates are garbage for PVP.
If you are a healer/support, the healing ulti might be an exception.

Issue 1 is exactly why I main bar soul assault. It’s cheap and gives me an honest chance at a 1 v 1. If not for that I’d have almost no way of getting an attackers health down into execution range.

For issue 2 see my response to issue 1. You’re totally right.

Baz · June 2018

Don't forget to repair PotL for PvE
Last time I raid with my stamplar, 25 casts on the boss, 15 explodes.

Huge dps loss here

Hymzir · June 2018

Two pain points eh... Okay...

1 - The class is an utter mess based on a flawed design philosophy and requires a complete redesign.
2 - The way the skills and passives are set up, you are channeled (pun intended) towards couple of specific builds, and if you decide to go in some other direction, you might as well not play a Templar at all.

And since fixing those is way too much work for it to ever happen, just give us a class change token already and forget that Templars ever existed.

And no, I'm not being entirely sarcastic with that. Since I was supposed to post just two main pain points, those are the ones that the issues with Templar boils down to. This can also be seen from the fact that a lot of the posts in this thread post tons of issues and problems. Just trying to isolate issues with Templars into two things is pretty much the same as nothing. The class has so many issues that I don't know where to even begin.

Back when the class rep program was introduced, I noted that anyone who is gonna be dealing with the Templar issues better have a lot of painkillers ready, 'cause it's gonna be non stop headaches dealing with the class.

As for a more nuanced version of my two points, I cobbled up a rant from my recent Templar postings, since I can't be arsed to write the same bloody thing for for the umpteenth time. It's also pretty long, so I stuffed it into a spoiler. Feel free to read it or not, I've said my piece and that's the main thing.

Spoiler

Every year I've been complaining about lack of mobility for Templars, every year the game has evolved towards more mobile play style, yet still Templars have been stuck sitting in their "homes" Sitting on our circles and runes, providing nice targeting reticles for our foes - free of charge.

This may have worked back when the play pace was slower, and people duked it out with one another in one spot, and we had strong defensive capabilities with Blinding Light and a decent Shield. TTK was much higher back then than it is now, and potential burst numbers were lot smaller.

But the game has evolved, through mechanical changes, through power creep, through the development of better battlefield tactics, and with the introduction of new gear. Everything points towards a more mobile, more bursty way of playing, were things must happen now or they might as well not happen at all.

And Templars are slow by design... The cast times, the channels, the lack of mobility, the ground based buffs... Even the almost instant nature of BoL.(Remember: Templars are supposed to anticipate damage.) The list just keeps going on and on.

Templars are a relic of a bygone era. The game has changed, the tactics have evolved, and Templars have been left sitting in the dust.

These days standing your ground is synonymous with digging your own grave. No wonder so many Templars sport Mighty Chudan these days and why so many feel they have to be vampire in order to survive Cyrodiil.

It's obvious, that in this sort of game environment, the house concept has to go. There is no way to make it work. Everything in the game has evolved towards more mobile way of playing, not just PVP, but also PVE boss mechanics.

With mobility based builds, you can kite, use terrain, isolate enemies from each other, and fight multiple opponents at the same time, all the while getting kills from massive instant timed burst (usually utilizing a stun or two - which Templars also lack).

For stand your ground to work against multiple opponents in the same way, you'd have to buff Templar house to such a stupid degree, that they'd become invincible in 1v1 engagements. And then the forums would erupt with whining about unkillable OP Templars, and we'd be nerfed to even worse state than where we are now.

However, ditching the house would mean you'd basically have to redesign every skill and passive and I just don't see that happening. Not with the meager resources ZOS is willing to spend on rebalancing.

As for the other thing... Well Playing as a Templar means basically two things - You are either a healer with just about no offensive capability, or you are playing a melee build using jabs and that's it. (Note that there are few quirky niche alternatives relying on odd combinations of armor sets - but those mostly rely on non Templar mechanics to work and are designed to work around the class or to work despite the class. And yeah, when I PVP as a Templar, am running one of them.)

Using jabs means melee range, which makes using Javelin bit pointelss since it knocks our foes out of the range of our jabs. Also the other stun we have has a minimum range and is thus useless in melee - plus it's utterly glitched and broken and akin to playing Russian roulette. However, despite all that, melee is still better since going ranged means not using jabs which gimps our DPS a lot.

This is due to a large portion of the damage potential of the class being tied to Burning Light procs. And to get that proc go off reliably, you need to use either Spear and it's morphs or Puncturing and it's morphs, and the first option isn't really an option for Stamplars.

Personally, am not really a fan of the idea of placing major portion of Templar DPS behind a proc, but it is what it is. Besides the cooldown on the passive itself limits it's overall usefulness anyway. Either lower the cooldown (or just get rid of it) or make it per target based or something.

Now granted, the actual damage a Templar can dish out with jabs and Burning Light procs is pretty decent, as long as all the hits land. And being a jabbing machine is not all that bad as a class defining trait, at least in PVE. However, in PVP melee is about instant burst and quick movements. Standing in place spamming jabs is waste of your time.

Simply but, the skill does not work against other players, since they will just move out of it's AOE, or root the Templar and ignore all damage. At this point, using any kinda build based on jabs in PVP, is just a mild form of masochism. You will not land hits with that - the only way you can make it work, is if you run into a herd of enemy players and start jabbing indiscriminately, hoping that someone runs in to your pokey bit. You certainly are not gonna land any hits intentionally.

My suggestion is to change Burning Light to proc from damage in general, when you have an Aedric Spear ability slotted, not just from Aedric Spear skills. This would free Templars to go for all sort of different builds, and retain our damage potential, and use skills for PVP that work in PVP. And use jabs in PVE where it performs just fine. Or go ranged if that is your thing.
I don't think it would be unbalanced, although non-templar players would prolly whine a lot once again, when Templars started to actually manage to dish out damage once more. A lot of the player base has grown accustomed to Templars hitting like wet noodles.

If it turns out to over perform, then tune the numbers. But please let me run viable builds, that benefit from my class passives, without having to rely on jabs.

And finally just a couple of quick things I've said in the past, but feel meaningful enough to repeat:

"Change the Mending passive to cover all healing, not just Restoring Light heals, so that my Stamplar has a reason to place points in that passive."

"It's been ages since I last tried to get Radiant to work - people kept whining about it 'cause it actually worked and managed to kill people. I kept telling them that it was working as intended. That it had flaws and was far from being an instant "I win button", and that the pros and cons were pretty solidly balanced. If the skill was nerfed then people would stop using it. Well, the whiners got their way, RO was nerfed and it's mostly gone from the battlefields of Cyrodiil."

To which, after Summerset, I would add: With the changes to light attack damage scaling, weaving in light attacks has become much more important for your DPS. Using Radiant means you will lose a ton of damage, and to make it work again would require stupid amounts of buffing which would just lead to lot more whining. So ditch the skill and replace it with something else. Or make Burning light proc from any damage - that might make up for the lost damage from weaving.

Edit - almost forgot, was supposed to condense my rant into super TLDR version so here goes: Make burning light proc from any damage, not only Aedric abilities, 'cause this would free Templars from relying on jabs and would open up possibilities for all sort of builds.The other is to make defensive buffs from Rune stick to the caster and give them similar duration to other classes defensive buffs.

Those two would help a lot. The third would be to work on resource management, but honestly - have lived with gimped resource regain for so long that I've grown accustomed to dealing with it.

Also, as far things concerning the Templar goes, I would strongly urge the class reps to pester everyone at ZOS to go through the OP of Joy_Divisions thread Templars need reform because the game has changed since it covers up pretty much everything wrong with the class, and offers decent enough suggestions on how to fix things, and also provides lot of evidence backing up the arguments.

Checkmath · June 2018

@Hymzir
you got some good painkillers for me then?
i know that the 2 top pain points of everyone differ quite a bit from individual to individual, since templars have so many pian points. i will try to bring in all those good feedbacks step by step to the devs, since they only want to implement a few things each time.

Minno · June 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

@Hymzir
you got some good painkillers for me then?
i know that the 2 top pain points of everyone differ quite a bit from individual to individual, since templars have so many pian points. i will try to bring in all those good feedbacks step by step to the devs, since they only want to implement a few things each time.

Hymzir · June 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

@Hymzir
you got some good painkillers for me then?
i know that the 2 top pain points of everyone differ quite a bit from individual to individual, since templars have so many pian points. i will try to bring in all those good feedbacks step by step to the devs, since they only want to implement a few things each time.

@Checkmath

Well... Let's just say, that should you ever visit my place, I can hook you up with some pretty potent pills... Have basically a permanent prescription for quite strong drugs, since I do actually suffer from chronic headaches.

But more on the point, I honestly wish you guys luck with this endeavor, even if I am myself fairly pessimistic as to what it will ultimately accomplish. And yeah, the fact that Templars have so many pain points, and the issues, that irk each player the most, vary quite a bit, is one of the reasons I feel that, as far as Templars are concerned, trying to get ZOS to see reason is a grueling task.

I'm just glad that I don't have to condense all these things into two concrete points. No matter which way you are gonna go, there are bound to be players that are gonna be disappointed. There's also the glacial pace, in which things change in ESO, to think about. Having to wait 3 months for some changes, and then to realize that the thing that irks you the most was not fixed and the next chance for ZOS doing something about it is in another 3 months, can make people give up on the game.

But ultimately, anything you manage to convince ZOS to act upon is a boon - and a lot more than has befallen on our beleaguered class in years. So I don't know, go with your gut and just try to get ZOS to actually fix something for a change, isntead of them doing yet another round of random tweaks and changes nobody was complaining about or wanted..

And while you're doing it, I'd also suggest to try to hammer in the point that Templars suffer from a fundamental disconnect with the concept around which the class is formed, and the actual state of gameplay in ESO. The house thing just doesn't work. At all.

While each of the classes sure could use a bit of tweaking and tinkering, most of the other classes are in a fairly decent place, except for mag Warden, which just needs a slew of buffs across the board. A couple of key pain points getting a tweak, will help the other classes quite a bit. Templars and mag wardens, however, need more. And if you manage to convince ZOS, that it might actually be a good idea in the long run, if they paid a tad more attention to these two classes and their issues, then you can color me impressed.

Drdeath20 · June 2018

Checkmath wrote: »

@Hymzir
you got some good painkillers for me then?
i know that the 2 top pain points of everyone differ quite a bit from individual to individual, since templars have so many pian points. i will try to bring in all those good feedbacks step by step to the devs, since they only want to implement a few things each time.

This is more of a forum question but anyway the class reps could get a special color for their comments? Its pety but they worked hard to earn a little recognition.

Sorry I'll stop clogging the comment section with my moronic drivel.

SIRPORKCHOPS · June 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Javalin just doesn't synergise at all with the toolkit, templar is About in your face fights but javalin knocks your enemy out of the range of your spammable and your only instant Damage ult.

Change radial sweep and both Morphs to deal 33% more Damage while reducing the extra Damage of crescent sweep to 25% (almost the same as currently) also please increase the range to 8m 6m is just too small

Fix the Bugs and give stamplar some sustain

sry but javelin not synergizing with the kit makes no sense its CC its does what a CC is supposed

SIRPORKCHOPS · June 2018

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to give you a place to post your current top two pain points with the Templar. Our new Class Representatives will be keeping a close eye on this thread, and will utilize it to gather additional feedback for the notes they’re currently compiling for their first meeting with the Dev Team next week. Please be sure and keep your post clear and succinct, and focus more on what is currently frustrating you rather than potential solutions. Thanks!

Ma`am, you're gonna need a lot more than two points to describe why this class is doing so god damn poorly.

To try and follow your crudely suggested model though, the two biggest pain points with Templar is this:

1) Class Passives are kinda terrible and need a dire rework, especially if anybody wants to be a Stamina Templar.

2) Increase the range and damage of the Sweeps Ultimates. There is no reason for it to be that weak and that short of range.

Now to add properly to the real list, here are some things that y'all really ought to consider:

3) The Javelin Skills need a rework for stamina characters methinks, make one ranged and for magicka players and tanks, and make the stamina version a melee skill.

4) Focused Charge should have a Stamina variant, and should be a targeted leap instead of a targeted charge.

5) Biting Jabs as someone already mentioned should be condensed to 3 hits instead of 4, and channeled over .8 instead of 1.1 seconds. This would help greatly in PvP and help a little in PvE.

6) Blazing Spear should be a Stamina Morph.

7) This is purely me being a nerd and wanting something personally for myself so tbh disregard this entirely, but Vampire's Bane should be a melee touch spell that scales with Stamina so we get a cool as hell Anti-Vampire move lol

8) Solar Barrage should not have a cast time attached to it imho, but since you do, make it burst every second instead of every 2 seconds.

9) PotL/Purifying Light should be slightly reworked for it's damage aspect. The Breach and Fracture parts are ok on it, but the Initial Damage should be increased and there should be a hefty, semi-bursty DoT on it rather than saving up for a big burst of damage.

10) I can't believe I almost forgot this, but Burning Light should Proc off of ALL damaging skills, or at the very least all Spear skills and any and all DoT skills. This opens up a grand avenue for build variety.

11) Balanced Warrior should be reworked a bit. It should benefit both Casters and Melee equally in some way for damage, which shouldn't be hard to achieve.

12) Piercing Spear should be reworked to include passive Penetration (giggity)

I've been up since 4am, so if this is a little rough, forgive me lol I have faith that ZoS can figure this out without totally ruining the *** out of us.

I main stamina templar for PVE and alot of your points are coming from a stance of little play with the class

Khivas_Carrick · June 2018

SIRPORKCHOPS wrote: »

show previous quotes

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to give you a place to post your current top two pain points with the Templar. Our new Class Representatives will be keeping a close eye on this thread, and will utilize it to gather additional feedback for the notes they’re currently compiling for their first meeting with the Dev Team next week. Please be sure and keep your post clear and succinct, and focus more on what is currently frustrating you rather than potential solutions. Thanks!

Ma`am, you're gonna need a lot more than two points to describe why this class is doing so god damn poorly.

To try and follow your crudely suggested model though, the two biggest pain points with Templar is this:

1) Class Passives are kinda terrible and need a dire rework, especially if anybody wants to be a Stamina Templar.

2) Increase the range and damage of the Sweeps Ultimates. There is no reason for it to be that weak and that short of range.

Now to add properly to the real list, here are some things that y'all really ought to consider:

3) The Javelin Skills need a rework for stamina characters methinks, make one ranged and for magicka players and tanks, and make the stamina version a melee skill.

4) Focused Charge should have a Stamina variant, and should be a targeted leap instead of a targeted charge.

5) Biting Jabs as someone already mentioned should be condensed to 3 hits instead of 4, and channeled over .8 instead of 1.1 seconds. This would help greatly in PvP and help a little in PvE.

6) Blazing Spear should be a Stamina Morph.

7) This is purely me being a nerd and wanting something personally for myself so tbh disregard this entirely, but Vampire's Bane should be a melee touch spell that scales with Stamina so we get a cool as hell Anti-Vampire move lol

8) Solar Barrage should not have a cast time attached to it imho, but since you do, make it burst every second instead of every 2 seconds.

9) PotL/Purifying Light should be slightly reworked for it's damage aspect. The Breach and Fracture parts are ok on it, but the Initial Damage should be increased and there should be a hefty, semi-bursty DoT on it rather than saving up for a big burst of damage.

10) I can't believe I almost forgot this, but Burning Light should Proc off of ALL damaging skills, or at the very least all Spear skills and any and all DoT skills. This opens up a grand avenue for build variety.

11) Balanced Warrior should be reworked a bit. It should benefit both Casters and Melee equally in some way for damage, which shouldn't be hard to achieve.

12) Piercing Spear should be reworked to include passive Penetration (giggity)

I've been up since 4am, so if this is a little rough, forgive me lol I have faith that ZoS can figure this out without totally ruining the *** out of us.

I main stamina templar for PVE and alot of your points are coming from a stance of little play with the class

I've been a Stamplar since the game released, on and off between patches and xpacs. I think you might wanna reconsider the fact that other people have other ideas and visions for the class and what they want. Are my ideas perfect? No, but a few of them are damn good ones regardless of what you think.

Blazing Spear being Stamina? Tell me why that wouldn't work. Biting Jabs being reworked to be more spammable and less glitchy? Go on, explain. Best of all, tell us why our class passives aren't ***.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2018

SIRPORKCHOPS wrote: »

show previous quotes

BohnT wrote: »

Javalin just doesn't synergise at all with the toolkit, templar is About in your face fights but javalin knocks your enemy out of the range of your spammable and your only instant Damage ult.

Change radial sweep and both Morphs to deal 33% more Damage while reducing the extra Damage of crescent sweep to 25% (almost the same as currently) also please increase the range to 8m 6m is just too small

Fix the Bugs and give stamplar some sustain

sry but javelin not synergizing with the kit makes no sense its CC its does what a CC is supposed

javelin knocks the enemy out of our house, how does that make sense?

technohic · June 2018

I think we need to just respect others opinions. No need to quote people and tell them they’re wrong. And best to not respond if someone does in case they’re trolls.

Cage_Lizardman · June 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

SIRPORKCHOPS wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Javalin just doesn't synergise at all with the toolkit, templar is About in your face fights but javalin knocks your enemy out of the range of your spammable and your only instant Damage ult.

Change radial sweep and both Morphs to deal 33% more Damage while reducing the extra Damage of crescent sweep to 25% (almost the same as currently) also please increase the range to 8m 6m is just too small

Fix the Bugs and give stamplar some sustain

sry but javelin not synergizing with the kit makes no sense its CC its does what a CC is supposed

javelin knocks the enemy out of our house, how does that make sense?

Works well with crit rush.

FrancisCrawford · June 2018

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Bonus ... the triple fire ball is awesome visually but could really use a damage bump.

Extra bonus: The skill line has a passive that actually reduces Reflective Light's damage, at least per the tooltip, by lengthening the time period for the DoT. If that's accurate, the skill should be fixed. If it isn't, then the tooltip should be rewritten.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · June 2018

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SIRPORKCHOPS wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Javalin just doesn't synergise at all with the toolkit, templar is About in your face fights but javalin knocks your enemy out of the range of your spammable and your only instant Damage ult.

Change radial sweep and both Morphs to deal 33% more Damage while reducing the extra Damage of crescent sweep to 25% (almost the same as currently) also please increase the range to 8m 6m is just too small

Fix the Bugs and give stamplar some sustain

sry but javelin not synergizing with the kit makes no sense its CC its does what a CC is supposed

javelin knocks the enemy out of our house, how does that make sense?

Works well with crit rush.

So you knock an enemy back and have to use a skill to get back on top of said enemy and you think this is fine for a class that is built around defending your house? You really don't see the problem with this?