Should skills have exactly 1 stam/1 mag morph?

NovaMarx · April 2018

yeap

I understand the idea of having some classes be more heavily magicka or stamina based. But that being said, there is a much too strong bias towards magicka skills and morphs. Personally I have always preferred magicka based combat, but have always found it annoying that even if/when I try to play stamina focused, I feel so incredibly limited.

Many would argue that lore wise, a lot of the class skills should be magicka based, and that most of the weapon skills are stamina based - and I would agree. But in the end there is a tangible imbalance. I'm not saying that they should give all classes an equal amount of magicka and stamina options, BUT a smaller rework to add stamina based morphs to some classes and skills would solve a lot of balancing issues.

All in all, the current situation contradicts ESO's whole "play how/what you like" kind of motto.

Betsararie · April 2018

I love both forms of combat a lots lol. I prefer to play mag because I find it to require more skill, and also to be more complex. Mag is a pleasure to play.

I enjoy playing stam too, but find it simplistic. However, many stam players are very skilled and stam obviously poses a significant threat.

Stinkyremy · April 2018

nope

No of course not. The whole point of the game is there is no pure defined stam/mag roles.
imagine stam DKs with green blood as a stam class skill. unkillable!

Sergykid · April 2018

yeap

stop crying with ur stamsorc or stamdk. They are very strong, just not popular. The only weak here is stamplar, he doesn't have ur sustain or ur unblockable CC.

i agree with this idea, but it must be applied only to class abilities. I don't see how you cast stamina abilities from the destro staff skill line.

TheShadowScout · April 2018

nope

No. It makes no sense whatsoever, as I have said elsewhere...

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Since stamina builds are -supposed- to rely more on warrior-ish weapon skills then flashy class "magic" stuff...

Personally, I would much rather have more skills to morph then more morphs on the skills we have... But that ought to come at no surprise considering the stuff I tend to post:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369966/class-morph-idea-mk-ii
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371862/additional-weapon-skill-ideas-mk-ii
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/387560/additional-guild-ideas-mk-ii

As I keep mentioning in that regard, -stamina characters- are the warriors, thieves, knights, assassins, barbarians, hunters, paladins, etc. of Tamriel.
They are the ones who are -supposed- to rely on muscle power and physical ability to get by, and are not supposed to punch flashy magic like those class skills into existence, but instead rely more on loping off heads with great swords and accurately stabbing hearts with daggers, bashing helmets with heavy maces and shooting right between the eyes with bows and all that.

As opposed to magicka builds, who are the wizards and priests, mystics and sages, witches and so on... those who are -supposed- to rely on their minds and mystical power to get by, casting great and terrible spells all day long, bending the elements to their will and laying waste to those who would dare oppose them with balls of fire from their eyes and bolts of lightning from their ar... uhm... staff. Who are supposed to call on divine (well, aedric, in tamriel) powers, and summon demonic (well, daedric) assistance, heal and bless their allies while cursing their enemies (in a magical sense, not just with foul language)...

And anyone who thinks otherwise had better bring some good arguments!

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I mean, if you disagree about the "way warriors are supposed to fight" thing I mentioned, come on, show us precedents of all the times when "stamina-build = pure warriors" use their muscles to make flashy magic attacks in fantasy stories.
Go on.
How many mystic fireballs have Conan or Hercules thrown through their strength of arm in all the stories and movies? How many bolts of lightning have Aragorn or Kull tossed around thropugh sheer physical prowess? How many orbs of holy light have Hawk and Fisher conjured by hitting harder? How many illusions have Thorin or Wulfgar called up through excessive muscle-flexing? How many healing spells have we seen Red Sonja or Xena cast with their dextrous martial arts? How many ice walls have Fafhrd or Gimli punched into existence?

I doubt you will find much in that regard in fantasy settings unless you start looking at hybrid characters like Thraxas or the Grey Mouser...

And thus... it makes a great deal of sense that the majority of the flashy spell-like abilities are the domain of magicka characters, and stamina characters are more dependent on weapon skill lines...
(Although a c ase could be made for -adding- more stamina-centric guilds with stamina build support skills like the fighetrs guild...)

generalmyrick · April 2018

yeap

xaraan wrote: »

Nope.

Not saying some skills/classes could use a little more stam love, but for some reason people forget: Magicka uses stam blocking/dodging/sprinting - there should be skills that benefit a stam build that are magicka based. Granted they can't be direct damage or spammables, but buffs or anything utility related are still great options to make use of a stamina characters magicka pool.

Cloak

Elsterchen · April 2018

yeap

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Maybe...

This would have to be part of a complete overhaul of the skills and combat system. You couldn't do this without re-balancing just about everything.

With the combat changes launching with SI, the base combat system IS overhauled completely already. Imo the re-balancing of all skills should be part of this, tbh. Including more class skills for stamina users, as there is no justification for them to be primarily magica based anymore.

@TheShadowScout fyi: the new combat system will enable you to LA/HA with your staff just as good as anyone using sword/axes/mauls... if build for damage you can reach even better results. More stamina morphs especially those non-flashy ones are just fair and imo needed to balance. Or are you telling us magica users never LA/HA?

adriant1978 · April 2018

nope

Damage skills, yes.

Utility skills, no because stamina builds getting some utility from magicka balances out magicka builds getting utility from stamina for blocking and doge rolling.

MaleAmazon · April 2018

The whole point of the game is there is no pure defined stam/mag roles

Ideally, yes. Like said it´s kinda pointless to have stam/magicka morphs since it makes the choice obvious and so nonexistent.

What we need, unless they reintroduce softcaps, is IMO to have more skills that are useful on both stamina and magicka. So basically, less scaling off max magicka/stamina.

Really, now that I think about it, I´d like to see a test where they scale like ultimates. You could make them not scale at all other than off level, but then I guess max health builds would be too powerful.

Blackbird_V · April 2018

other

Ability Damage should just go off of Weapon/Spell Damage and Maximum Stamina/Magicka, whatever is highest.

Then anything can work.... and be completely overpowered.

emilyhyoyeon · April 2018

yeap

I think I should've voted other, but anyway I think classes skills should have more stamina morph options, not necessarily one per every class skill

Abysswarrior45 · April 2018

other

Sergykid wrote: »

stop crying with ur stamsorc or stamdk. They are very strong, just not popular. The only weak here is stamplar, he doesn't have ur sustain or ur unblockable CC.

i agree with this idea, but it must be applied only to class abilities. I don't see how you cast stamina abilities from the destro staff skill line.

Staplers are very strong. They have purify and ridiculous burst potential. Both stam dks and staplers are weak in different ways.

SugaComa · April 2018

other

I feel dual weild and bow should both have a magic morph and when selected the heavy attacks return magicka

But two handers and sword n board should remain stamina only

Aurie · April 2018

nope

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Definitely not. All this would do is take away any choices or build variations. Every stam build would choose the stamina morph and every mag build would choose the Magicka morph. At that point why even bother with having morphs. There would be no more weighing this effect vs that effect on morphs, it would be one useful morph and one completely useless every time.

This.

Colecovision · April 2018

yeap

I should have put other. I don’t think it should be dead even, but there’s things that aren’t right. Someone pointed to sneak, thieving and assaination as being stam. Yet the big sneak perks are magika in Concealed weapon and vampirism has no stam skills. It’s absurd and not how it’s done in elder scrolls. Black market mogul should be the gate keeper, not a magika skill line.

Also stam sorc? It’s just like stamblade, only it sucks. Summoning has a morph at the end of the skill line, but no skill worth slotting to level up. I finally quit and turned mine into a fire mage.

TLDR: fix a few things, leave an advantage to mag, but throw stam a few bones.

DaveMoeDee · April 2018

nope

Malacthulhu wrote: »

With the amount of skill points available you would think each skill had 6 morphs each.

It isn't like you can use an additional skill point to take a second morph.

JinMori · April 2018

If it doesn't make sense, no.

jcm2606 · April 2018

other

Not all skills. I would like more skills to benefit stamina classes, like Stam Sorc or Stam DK, but it should make sense as to which skills have morphs that benefit stamina classes.

AlnilamE · April 2018

nope

It would remove choice even more than it does now. I already dislike the fact that I'm forced to pick a specific morph based on it being stamina or magicka. I would hate if that was the case for *every* skill.

kargen27 · April 2018

nope

Would make it so only choice you really make is when you are creating the character. Everything else would be pretty much decided at that point.

mrmongoose30 · April 2018

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

TheShadowScout · April 2018

nope

Elsterchen wrote: »

the new combat system will enable you to LA/HA with your staff just as good as anyone using sword/axes/mauls... if build for damage you can reach even better results. More stamina morphs especially those non-flashy ones are just fair and imo needed to balance. Or are you telling us magica users never LA/HA?

LA/HA has -always- been a part of every combat style, stamina or magica, for weaving and resource management (latter being more important nowadays due to recent game system changes in regards to some champion system passives...). But that has no effect on skills, and thus is not really applicable in this discussion.
Also... I never found it any harder to LA/HA with my magica staff-wielders then with my stamina weapon wielders... so how do you get an idea those are not currently "just as good"? In fact, I would think it had always been -better- then three-quarters of the stamina options due to be usable at range... and thus not as affected by blocking enemies.

I still say, stamina characters should not be able to make magic effects by flexing their muscles, and magica characters should not be able to swing weapons warrior-like by concentrating more intensely...
...thus I oppose giving -every- skill exactly 1 stam/1 mag morph.

I mean, come on, are people really that intent on game mechanics to not realize how silly it would be to have a skinny, nerdy bookworm mage suddenly be able to wield a battleaxe just as well like a musclebound warrior due to a "magica morph"? Or the musclebound warrior punching a fireball into existence through sheer musclepower due to "stamina morph"? (Not even martial arts anime goes that far, they always use some "ki/chi/prana/essence/whatever" manipulation explaination for the flashy attacks, making all those characters hybrid builds...)

Now, if someone were to ask for a new world skill line that provided stamina skills useable for all stamina characters as combat support regardless of their choosen weapon... perhaps to balance the upcoming Psijic skill line that is almost certainly pretty magical... that would be a point worth discussing, and something I could agree with.

starkerealm · April 2018

nope

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

It's not offering more choice, that's the problem.

If the table you're at has a mix of hamburgers and hotdogs, with a variety of different toppings for the burgers, but the dogs are oddly uniform, that's variety. The other table has an even split of hotdogs and burgers, but you can only pick one type, and that's all you can have. Also, for extra fun, you had to pick which one you committed to before you knew it was a choice.

The current system provides a fairly significant amount of diversity. Yes, build diversity could be better, and there are morphs that on one in their right mind should touch. But, there's a lot like... well, I mentioned Falcon's Swiftness earlier. It's a Warden ability that increases your stam recovery, and gives you major expedition (Increased movement speed), for 10s. One morph adds minor evasion (5% dodge chance), and the other adds minor berserk (+8% damage done.) So, you have two choices. If the ability got a stam morph it would be just that, you get the base effects except it costs Stamina instead of Magicka. So, we'd lose out on Evasive Predator or Bird of Prey.

To be fair, there are some stam morphs that pick up new abilities, that is a thing. But, more often than not, they're just boring. Surprise Attack adds Major Fracture to the target, which would be great, if the tank wasn't also applying Major Fracture to the boss every time they use pierce.

Elsterchen · April 2018

yeap

TheShadowScout wrote: »

LA/HA has -always- been a part of every combat style, stamina or magica, for weaving and resource management (latter being more important nowadays due to recent game system changes in regards to some champion system passives...). But that has no effect on skills, and thus is not really applicable in this discussion.
Also... I never found it any harder to LA/HA with my magica staff-wielders then with my stamina weapon wielders... so how do you get an idea those are not currently "just as good"? In fact, I would think it had always been -better- then three-quarters of the stamina options due to be usable at range... and thus not as affected by blocking enemies.

You are aware of the combat changes that WILL hit 21.5.2018? Argueing about "current" live seems a bit out-of-date already.

You however tough a point not spoken about in full depth already: the ability to interupt from range using staffs. Playing melee range THAT would be a nice buff for my toons, too.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I still say, stamina characters should not be able to make magic effects by flexing their muscles, and magica characters should not be able to swing weapons warrior-like by concentrating more intensely...
...thus I oppose giving -every- skill exactly 1 stam/1 mag morph.

Again, I like to emphazise that there are basic combat changes that will be in place really soon. Despite of what you like or not like, magica chars will be able to deal more damage with staffs than stamina users with their weapons... adding to it magica users will be able to CHOOSE from a variety of abilities to use in-between LA/HA attacks. You are perfectly right, that asking for 50% shared abilities is silly. In the light of the combat changes stamina users should ask for a complete exchange of numbers, leaving 2-3 magica morphs per class! That would be balance, enabling stamina users to build up for their basic combat disadvantage.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

I mean, come on, are people really that intent on game mechanics to not realize how silly it would be to have a skinny, nerdy bookworm mage suddenly be able to wield a battleaxe just as well like a musclebound warrior due to a "magica morph"? Or the musclebound warrior punching a fireball into existence through sheer musclepower due to "stamina morph"? (Not even martial arts anime goes that far, they always use some "ki/chi/prana/essence/whatever" manipulation explaination for the flashy attacks, making all those characters hybrid builds...)

I agree, its silly. Yet thats exactly what will happen when SI launches.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Now, if someone were to ask for a new world skill line that provided stamina skills useable for all stamina characters as combat support regardless of their choosen weapon... perhaps to balance the upcoming Psijic skill line that is almost certainly pretty magical... that would be a point worth discussing, and something I could agree with.

Actually i have already suggested making fighters guild line more suitable to enable stamina chars to cope with the upcoming changes (i.e. add a + X% max stamina ability for starters... but yeah actually that whole deadra/werewolf thingy should be scratched and replaced by more usuable buffs reflecting mages guild skills/abilities ). A total new skill line isn't needed ... and frankly I would not expect the DEVs that came up with this "brilliant" new combat system to be able to code a new skill line within the few weeks left. Adding to it, since neither the DEVs nor the Ananlysts nor the Testers at ZOS seemed to have noticed the impact their already planned changes put on stamina and magica toons, I am very weary about their ability to design a balanced new skill line. its much faster and more effective to change what is already there instead of hoping for something they failed to deliver already.

but thats just my personal opinion ofc

mrmongoose30 · April 2018

Why not have have one falcon swiftness restore mag and give evasion and the other give restore Stam and give minor berserk? (Or vice versa, just making point). Why would making one morph mag and one Stam get rid of the utility of the morphs? Most ability's that do have a Stam and mag morph still offer utility one way or the other.

I still don't understand why it wouldn't open up more options. You already decide to be mag or Stam from the start so I don't really get that argument either. And for hybrids it wouldn't change much either. Take some Stam stuff here some mag stuff there for your build.

Elsterchen · April 2018

yeap

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Why not have have one falcon swiftness restore mag and give evasion and the other give restore Stam and give minor berserk? (Or vice versa, just making point). Why would making one morph mag and one Stam get rid of the utility of the morphs? Most ability's that do have a Stam and mag morph still offer utility one way or the other.

I still don't understand why it wouldn't open up more options. You already decide to be mag or Stam from the start so I don't really get that argument either. And for hybrids it wouldn't change much either. Take some Stam stuff here some mag stuff there for your build.

Very good point, but I was called insane in PTS forum for suggesting this and told that apparently stamina users like their buffs beeing magica based (evenso no one was able to explain why stamina users like buffs they can't sustain, or not beeing able to choose to use all new buffs (due to limited magica pool) ).

kargen27 · April 2018

nope

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Elsterchen · April 2018

yeap

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

Dracan_Fontom · April 2018

other

It would have to depend on the skill/skill line. For example I don't think destro/resto and mages guild skills should not have stam morphs. Similarly 2h shouldn't have magic morphs. Fighters Guild is debatable imo.

jlmurra2 · April 2018

How about weapon skills(swords, axes, daggers, maces) with magic morphs? Many of us could finally make that spellsword character we have been thinking of.