Should skills have exactly 1 stam/1 mag morph?

ak_pvp

nope

Nope. Some stam classes do need more, but stamina, as the name implies, is a physical abilities that should cost stamina, as such as the option of 4 damaging weapon lines for PvP, wheras mag has one. (Inb4 different elements, you can say the same about sword, dagger, axe, mace.)

We don't need too many pointless green magicka skills added that make no sense. Stam is meant to main weapons, and supplement from classes, mag is meant to main class skills and supplement from weapons. Of course, logic should come second to balance, this doesn't mean ignore it outright.

NewBlacksmurf

other

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Why do people always assume that more options take away choice. I see that argument all the time. Someone suggests somthing like this or spell crafting for example that gives a lot more options and people always post that it would give less choice???

Anyway this is somthing my friends and I talked about a lot and even the weapon choices wouldn't be as crazy as people first think. Wall of elements / poison morph, crushing shock / bleed disease and poison damage, snipe / lightning damage morph. I mean you get the idea. If you wanted some magic sword and board morphs make them ice to got the whole frost staff feel. Fire, ice, lightning magic = bleed, poision, disease, and physical.

Not to mention all the class abilities make Stam look like spellbladex anyways breathing green poison fire or dawn breaker doesn't exactly scream master swordsman anyway so zos could just fully embrace what they started already.

@mrmongoose30

In this discussion, lets say that the game did offer stamina and magic options .....
While it seems like that would be a good thing, you're also suggesting to completely remove a lot of existing choices and that means less choices. That would be a bad thing...for example, on my Templar, that heals....if you were to change the healing skill to have a stamina and magic option...that removes 50% of the morphs available to magic builds.

The solution is very simple to all of this.
-Remove PvP from PvE entirely.
-Remove classes from the game but keep the skill lines and limit unlocking everything via the skill points we use...however extend another set of morphs and remove CP's. (I like some of the passives and would agree those could unlock from skill line and morph choices)

starkerealm

nope

Elsterchen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

You may have missed this point. Both morphs of Falcon's Swiftness are open to a stam build, even though it's a magicka skill.

You may have missed the point that a stam morph of every skill is open to a magica build as well. Why do only stam users have to check their limited ressouce?

No, because a stam morph for every ability would close off options for Magicka builds. Don't believe me? Look at how abilities like Leaching were changed when they got stamina morphs.

Elsterchen wrote: »

And before you start:

Too late.

Elsterchen wrote: »

every char has to dodge, break free and block ...

And every character has a chance to be obliterated by Magicka Surge in vSO.

Elsterchen wrote: »

stamina abilities beeing ~15% cheaper then their magica variants account for that already. To choose an ability from the number of abilities that do not support your main ressource is as tough for stamina users as it is for magica users.

The overall number in stamina morphs however is significantly lower then the number in magica morphs. Why do only stamina users have to make choices based on how well they can sustain an ability with their minor ressource?

So, this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game has been put together regarding stamina morphs. If you can find useful stam morphs (not counting Dark Exchange/Conversion), that remain functional for Magicka users, feel free to weigh back in. But, if you're thinking, "well, I could take Surprise Attack, because look at that debuff," no.

Elsterchen wrote: »

@kargen27

There are stamina base skills and magicka base spells. For the most part the base can be morphed into one of two choices that draw from the same resource.

For 80% of class skills that same ressource is magica. This is exactly what one calls: one sided.

No, it's because class skills are, almost universally, the result of a character's magical training. I mean, the original build approach was that all classes would be hybrid builds, where you're always playing some variety of a magic user. Now, with different design goals over the years, that's less true than it used to be, but it still affects which resource governs the class skills.

Spacemonkey

nope

more HP morphs please! (seriously there are so very few)
no stat morph please! (morph that is very little affected by any stat, - this would be great for CC abilities)
bi-stat morphs please! (morph that is affected by your total of stat A and B, like HP + MAG or Stam + MAG or HP + Stam)

encouraging single stat stacking has always annoyed me. makes the game so binary.

Tandor

nope

Variety is the spice of life.

Most players aren't concerned with min-maxing, meta-builds, BIS, and all that stuff. Let them enjoy some variety and flexibility. Skills, and thereby classes, need greater diversity not less.

josiahva

other

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

You may have missed this point. Both morphs of Falcon's Swiftness are open to a stam build, even though it's a magicka skill.

You may have missed the point that a stam morph of every skill is open to a magica build as well. Why do only stam users have to check their limited ressouce?

No, because a stam morph for every ability would close off options for Magicka builds. Don't believe me? Look at how abilities like Leaching were changed when they got stamina morphs.

Elsterchen wrote: »

And before you start:

Too late.

Elsterchen wrote: »

every char has to dodge, break free and block ...

And every character has a chance to be obliterated by Magicka Surge in vSO.

Elsterchen wrote: »

stamina abilities beeing ~15% cheaper then their magica variants account for that already. To choose an ability from the number of abilities that do not support your main ressource is as tough for stamina users as it is for magica users.

The overall number in stamina morphs however is significantly lower then the number in magica morphs. Why do only stamina users have to make choices based on how well they can sustain an ability with their minor ressource?

So, this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game has been put together regarding stamina morphs. If you can find useful stam morphs (not counting Dark Exchange/Conversion), that remain functional for Magicka users, feel free to weigh back in. But, if you're thinking, "well, I could take Surprise Attack, because look at that debuff," no.

Elsterchen wrote: »

@kargen27

There are stamina base skills and magicka base spells. For the most part the base can be morphed into one of two choices that draw from the same resource.

For 80% of class skills that same ressource is magica. This is exactly what one calls: one sided.

No, it's because class skills are, almost universally, the result of a character's magical training. I mean, the original build approach was that all classes would be hybrid builds, where you're always playing some variety of a magic user. Now, with different design goals over the years, that's less true than it used to be, but it still affects which resource governs the class skills.

This is only the case if a skill tree stops after one morph...if they added stam/magicka morph for all skills, they would need to rework it so there is another branching afterward...and that would be just fine.

starkerealm

nope

josiahva wrote: »

This is only the case if a skill tree stops after one morph...if they added stam/magicka morph for all skills, they would need to rework it so there is another branching afterward...and that would be just fine.

Okay, I'll play with this idea for a second.

If you wanted a system where you could fully reconfigure abilities like this, I'm not sure the current morph system is a good fit.

In the current system you blind choose your upgrades as you progress. So it's a binary, "my ability will do this, or that." At that point, sticking another tier of morphs on an ability would be more confusing. Because you'd be asked to make a series of blind choices as you progressed, based on picking one morph or the other, but without knowledge of what can be found elsewhere in the tree.

For example, you have two morphs of Veiled Strike. One turns it into surprise attack and the other is concealed weapon. One's stam, one's magicka. Now, if you layer an extra pair of morphs on that, you'd need to advance it down each of those lines to find out what the resulting four are. If the magicka morph has one that grants you decreased detect radius, and one that grants a stun to the ability, that's cool. But, if the stamina ones have an option that grants you the movement speed in stealth, you might choose concealed weapon for the movement speed buff (on a PvP build), oblivious to the possibility of obtaining it elsewhere.

Now, you certainly can have a system set up around modifying existing skills as you level up. Off hand, Titan Quest/Grim Dawn's system comes to mind. You'd unlock an active ability, like a pet or an attack, and then you could in turn unlock more advanced modifiers to it down the line. Such as increasing the pet's damage, or giving it an aura. The key is it would unlock all of those buffs as you put points in the appropriate areas. Occationally there were side options which could, for example, change a ranged augmentation to affect melee attacks instead, or might reduce the damage of an ability, but add a stun.

The critical difference is that this system required that all ability modifications were visible to the player up front.

Could ESO go to a system like Skyrim's constellations, where you have an actual branching tree of active and passive abilities to advance down? Well, yes, but I'm not sure it would make things better. At least not without a complete, ground up, overhaul of how skills work in game.

To be clear, I do like TQ and GD, they're some of my favorite Diablo style ARPGs. But, I don't think they're a good fit for the ESO that exists now.

I think you could use their structure to set up a good Elder Scrolls based loot pinata-style ARPG. Particularly if you lifted the attributes from Elder Scrolls Legends, and ran with that approach to mixing classes together (TQ and GD both use a dual class hybrid system). But, I don't think it's something that would be immediately beneficial to ESO, without throwing out everything and starting from scratch, which just doesn't make sense to me.

Vaoh

nope

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Definitely not. All this would do is take away any choices or build variations. Every stam build would choose the stamina morph and every mag build would choose the Magicka morph. At that point why even bother with having morphs. There would be no more weighing this effect vs that effect on morphs, it would be one useful morph and one completely useless every time.

^^^

temjiu

nope

I say Narp, only because some skills just don't mesh out well in stamina or magika builds for that class, and there are 3 roles to fill when thinking about skill morphs...giving stamina one morph for every skill is 50% of the morphs, when it should be 33% if you think about it.

EDS604 wrote: »

Yeah there should be, tho would be hard to balance since some morphs are specifically good for pvp. sollution? add a 3rd morph for pvp specifically, OR seperate pve skills from pvp, make skills function differently or nerf dmg when entering cyrodiil perhaps? guildwars did this pretty well, skills that were simply too OP for PvP, were just totally overhauled when going into battlegrounds or world vs world. I don't see why this couldn't be done in ESO. would solve ALL the balancing issues that mess up PvE because of Pvpers complaining and vice versa.

Agree 100%. They should have a completely separate line of PvP morphs. Just about every other MMO out there I've played is going in this direction, not sure Why ESO is so late to the game.

EDS604 wrote: »

The critical difference is that this system required that all ability modifications were visible to the player up front.

I think that no matter what, this would be a great idea. it would solve allot of the frustrations people have with the current system of respeccing.

MerlinPendragon

nope

Leave morphs as is.

klowdy1

yeap

For the most part, yes, class skills should. Things like mage's guild, or fighters guild are obvious exceptions.

Lichbourne90

nope

I'll change my mind in exchange for a Stam morph of haunting curse and mages wrath

phermitgb

other

since you ask...
I've personally been toying with the idea of disconnecting skills from magika OR stamina entirely, EXCEPT as a resource pool - keep the morphs and their various effects, but allow character to just CHOOSE, for each skill that they have, whether that power draws from the stamina or magicka pool

the second part of this, of course, hinges on unhooking base damage from stamina or magica - I feel that base damage should be based on...some relatively fixed progression number, like level, with maybe a harshly diminishing returns increase to base damage based on cp's or some such (as in, lvls 1-50 scale damage from 0-2000, cp1-160 add maybe another 200, and then point-for-point or less for the remainder of cp's up to the current limit - something along those lines)

I also, on a similar note, want them to make stamina/magica (possibly even health) a SELECTABLE resource for all your basic defensive skills - sprint, block, dodgeroll, breakfree - they should all have a stam/magica selector that you can pick, as far as I'm concerned

in short, I want stamina/magica to JUST be a resource pool, and not also a determinant of damage, so I can create skill layouts that bounce between both pools, or fit an RP-immersion style for my own perception, or, or or...

Facefister

yeap

Stam sorc missing a spammable with minor breach.

Septimus_Magna

other

Class skills should have 3 morph options to increase build diversity.