Should skills have exactly 1 stam/1 mag morph?

mb10

nope

Lol nope.

They're SPELLS. Spells cost magicka not stamina in the TES.
Never forget we are playing an Elder Scrolls and they have an obligation to follow Bethesda's model and laws of their universe.

jlmurra2

mb10 wrote: »

Lol nope.

They're SPELLS. Spells cost magicka not stamina in the TES.
Never forget we are playing an Elder Scrolls and they have an obligation to follow Bethesda's model and laws of their universe.

Many of the stamina skills look like magicka to me. I mean a sorcerer turns into a living hurricane, or manifests as lighting. One is magic the other is not, right?

Merlin13KAGL

other

I'd like to see the option of a passive or passives that allow you to convert certain skills/lines over to the alternative.

The effects could even be different. This would require even more commitment on behalf of a build, but would also open up more build diversity.

I remember some standalone games gave you the option to one-time "morph" an entire skill line over to another. You could continue with the existing line, advancing as normal, or unlock the new line, forfeiting the old one in the process.

Each class should have some utility from the 'lesser' stat, but scaling would have to be adjusted to make it truly worthwhile.

If they wanted to get really fancy, they could implement a skill/ult/set that would use the opposing stat or temp morph the results. (Pelinial's for stats, so to speak)

As an aside to this, I'd also like to see the option to learn and equip both morphs of certain skills, at a cost of additional skillpoints, actual cast cost, or whatever.

mrmongoose30

Ohhhh I think I get what your saying. For magicka it would be less choice because you would loose out on the other morphs to choose from on many class abilities and for stamina you would loose on a lot of the weapon ability choices.

In my point of view it would be more choice because it would mean every skill could be chosen weather you were stam or mag. (Depending on if the skill offered your build the utility you wanted).

kargen27

nope

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

There are stamina base skills and magicka base spells. For the most part the base can be morphed into one of two choices that draw from the same resource. What you have suggested is take half the morphs away from magicka users and give them to stam users.
The morph you choose now is based on what type of play you will be doing. Some morphs are good for PvP some for PvE for instance. You are trying to take away diversity in builds by forcing a morph based on whether your character is stam or magicka based. As others have mentioned to be fair you would also have to do the same thing with weapons making one morph magicka based. So basically any time you level up a base skill whether it be weapon or skill the decision for what morph to use has already been made.

starkerealm

nope

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

You may have missed this point. Both morphs of Falcon's Swiftness are open to a stam build, even though it's a magicka skill.

starkerealm

nope

jlmurra2 wrote: »

How about weapon skills(swords, axes, daggers, maces) with magic morphs? Many of us could finally make that spellsword character we have been thinking of.

Once again, I like this idea, but I don't think it should be on the skill line itself. Probably a good candidate for future ability altering weapons (like Asylum, Maelstrom and Master) in the future though.

FloppyTouch

yeap

I want magic morph of vigor and rally heal

raj72616a

other

each skill should have exactly FOUR morphs.

a stam morph
a mag morph
a health morph
a fashion morph

Elsterchen

yeap

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

You may have missed this point. Both morphs of Falcon's Swiftness are open to a stam build, even though it's a magicka skill.

You may have missed the point that a stam morph of every skill is open to a magica build as well. Why do only stam users have to check their limited ressouce?

And before you start: every char has to dodge, break free and block ... stamina abilities beeing ~15% cheaper then their magica variants account for that already. To choose an ability from the number of abilities that do not support your main ressource is as tough for stamina users as it is for magica users.

The overall number in stamina morphs however is significantly lower then the number in magica morphs. Why do only stamina users have to make choices based on how well they can sustain an ability with their minor ressource?

@kargen27

There are stamina base skills and magicka base spells. For the most part the base can be morphed into one of two choices that draw from the same resource.

For 80% of class skills that same ressource is magica. This is exactly what one calls: one sided.

Heka Cain

Yeah! But...No! But...Yeah! But...No! But...Yeah...But...No! But...Yeah! But...No! But...Yeah...But...No! But...Yeah! But...No! But...Yeah...But...No! But...Yeah! But...No! But...Yeah...But...No! But...Yeah! But...No! But...Yeah...But...No! But...Yeah! But...No! But...Yeah...But...No! But...Yeah! But...No! But...Yeah...But...No! But...Yeah! But...No! But...Yeah...But...No! But...Yeah! But...No! But...Yeah...But...No! But...Yeah! But...No! But...Yeah...But...No! But...

mrmongoose30

I now "think" I get both view points. On one side you get more options because every skill would be available to both Stam and mag but on the other side you loose out on getting to choose between two Stam or two mag options.

Personally I would still think it would be cool if every skill could be Stam or mag. Bringing back flaming arrow barrage as a mag morph and finally getting a poison whip but that's just like my opinion man. One of my favorite things about this game is theory crafting unique builds and I think it would add a lot to that. Plus being a ranged mage with a bow would be fun

Sparr0w

nope

What about healers... DPS bias much

Plus some skills would make no sense having a stamina morph & vice versa...

mrmongoose30

Not sure what it would change about healers other than you would be able to make a Stam healer and mag healers would get access to the extremely few Stam heal abilities like vigor and....well I guess just vigor.

swirve

yeap

Mag focused players say nope.

Stam focused players say yeah.

...

teiselaise

nope

Why not just remove morphs, hell we could even just remove all skills, classes and gear. Then the game would be fair and we could have a true fistfight

Biro123

nope

There simply should be an equivalent amount of skills available to each side. So, to make it equal for class skills, there would also need to be an equal number of weapon skills for both stam and mag.

kargen27

nope

Elsterchen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

You may have missed this point. Both morphs of Falcon's Swiftness are open to a stam build, even though it's a magicka skill.

You may have missed the point that a stam morph of every skill is open to a magica build as well. Why do only stam users have to check their limited ressouce?

And before you start: every char has to dodge, break free and block ... stamina abilities beeing ~15% cheaper then their magica variants account for that already. To choose an ability from the number of abilities that do not support your main ressource is as tough for stamina users as it is for magica users.

The overall number in stamina morphs however is significantly lower then the number in magica morphs. Why do only stamina users have to make choices based on how well they can sustain an ability with their minor ressource?

@kargen27

There are stamina base skills and magicka base spells. For the most part the base can be morphed into one of two choices that draw from the same resource.

For 80% of class skills that same ressource is magica. This is exactly what one calls: one sided.

So how many duel wield morphs are magicka based?

Sevn

Are the players voting no mainly magick users? Just curious.

Elsterchen

yeap

kargen27 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

You may have missed this point. Both morphs of Falcon's Swiftness are open to a stam build, even though it's a magicka skill.

You may have missed the point that a stam morph of every skill is open to a magica build as well. Why do only stam users have to check their limited ressouce?

And before you start: every char has to dodge, break free and block ... stamina abilities beeing ~15% cheaper then their magica variants account for that already. To choose an ability from the number of abilities that do not support your main ressource is as tough for stamina users as it is for magica users.

The overall number in stamina morphs however is significantly lower then the number in magica morphs. Why do only stamina users have to make choices based on how well they can sustain an ability with their minor ressource?

@kargen27

There are stamina base skills and magicka base spells. For the most part the base can be morphed into one of two choices that draw from the same resource.

For 80% of class skills that same ressource is magica. This is exactly what one calls: one sided.

So how many duel wield morphs are magicka based?

Since when is DW skill line a class skill line?

... and there are as many DW skills magica based as there are restrostaff skills stamina based.

kargen27

nope

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

You may have missed this point. Both morphs of Falcon's Swiftness are open to a stam build, even though it's a magicka skill.

You may have missed the point that a stam morph of every skill is open to a magica build as well. Why do only stam users have to check their limited ressouce?

And before you start: every char has to dodge, break free and block ... stamina abilities beeing ~15% cheaper then their magica variants account for that already. To choose an ability from the number of abilities that do not support your main ressource is as tough for stamina users as it is for magica users.

The overall number in stamina morphs however is significantly lower then the number in magica morphs. Why do only stamina users have to make choices based on how well they can sustain an ability with their minor ressource?

@kargen27

There are stamina base skills and magicka base spells. For the most part the base can be morphed into one of two choices that draw from the same resource.

For 80% of class skills that same ressource is magica. This is exactly what one calls: one sided.

So how many duel wield morphs are magicka based?

Since when is DW skill line a class skill line?

... and there are as many DW skills magica based as there are restrostaff skills stamina based.

It isn't a class skill line and never has been. But you have to be fair. If you are going to take half the class skills away from magicka users you need to take half the skills away from the stamina users in the weapons skills lines.

If stam users are going to have full access to class skills then magicka users need full access to all weapon skills.

Only fair.

Elsterchen

yeap

kargen27 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

You may have missed this point. Both morphs of Falcon's Swiftness are open to a stam build, even though it's a magicka skill.

You may have missed the point that a stam morph of every skill is open to a magica build as well. Why do only stam users have to check their limited ressouce?

And before you start: every char has to dodge, break free and block ... stamina abilities beeing ~15% cheaper then their magica variants account for that already. To choose an ability from the number of abilities that do not support your main ressource is as tough for stamina users as it is for magica users.

The overall number in stamina morphs however is significantly lower then the number in magica morphs. Why do only stamina users have to make choices based on how well they can sustain an ability with their minor ressource?

@kargen27

There are stamina base skills and magicka base spells. For the most part the base can be morphed into one of two choices that draw from the same resource.

For 80% of class skills that same ressource is magica. This is exactly what one calls: one sided.

So how many duel wield morphs are magicka based?

Since when is DW skill line a class skill line?

... and there are as many DW skills magica based as there are restrostaff skills stamina based.

It isn't a class skill line and never has been. But you have to be fair. If you are going to take half the class skills away from magicka users you need to take half the skills away from the stamina users in the weapons skills lines.

If stam users are going to have full access to class skills then magicka users need full access to all weapon skills.

Only fair.

Actually it would be fair to introduce a single flame staff skill line, a single ice staff skill line and a single lightning staff skill line and have stick wielders enjoy the doubtfull pleasure of
a) having different play styles due to "missing parts" in design of skill line (i.e. gap-closer in DW)
b) having to level skills multiple times because Zeni just isn't up to the task of remembering that you actually did level that skill line already before patch... and just didn't use it because it was nerfed to ground or broken during last patch
c) have to spend their skill points in 2 skill lines (including passives) if you like to play with 2 different staffs.

Don't you think?

The way its now, you only need to switch staffs if you want to go from DD to Tank ... no need to change skills, no need to learn the strength and weakness of the weapon and no leveling. Adding to it, anything you may miss in your build can be easily added with class skills ... you have a pletora to choose from.

Ultravylence

other

Yes with a caveat , to me it would always have made sense that each skill should have a morph that scales off one of the THREE resource pools. Meaning a Magic, Stam and Health pool scaling morph. Examples of how a morph can scale from health can be found on many tank-centric morphs already (ie. Bone Shield); in these cases the resource used to cast would vary (or match the original skill) but the morph would have a bonus for sustain/tank style game play which can be balanced by scaling on the Health Resource Pool.

kargen27

nope

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

You may have missed this point. Both morphs of Falcon's Swiftness are open to a stam build, even though it's a magicka skill.

You may have missed the point that a stam morph of every skill is open to a magica build as well. Why do only stam users have to check their limited ressouce?

And before you start: every char has to dodge, break free and block ... stamina abilities beeing ~15% cheaper then their magica variants account for that already. To choose an ability from the number of abilities that do not support your main ressource is as tough for stamina users as it is for magica users.

The overall number in stamina morphs however is significantly lower then the number in magica morphs. Why do only stamina users have to make choices based on how well they can sustain an ability with their minor ressource?

@kargen27

There are stamina base skills and magicka base spells. For the most part the base can be morphed into one of two choices that draw from the same resource.

For 80% of class skills that same ressource is magica. This is exactly what one calls: one sided.

So how many duel wield morphs are magicka based?

Since when is DW skill line a class skill line?

... and there are as many DW skills magica based as there are restrostaff skills stamina based.

It isn't a class skill line and never has been. But you have to be fair. If you are going to take half the class skills away from magicka users you need to take half the skills away from the stamina users in the weapons skills lines.

If stam users are going to have full access to class skills then magicka users need full access to all weapon skills.

Only fair.

Actually it would be fair to introduce a single flame staff skill line, a single ice staff skill line and a single lightning staff skill line and have stick wielders enjoy the doubtfull pleasure of
a) having different play styles due to "missing parts" in design of skill line (i.e. gap-closer in DW)
b) having to level skills multiple times because Zeni just isn't up to the task of remembering that you actually did level that skill line already before patch... and just didn't use it because it was nerfed to ground or broken during last patch
c) have to spend their skill points in 2 skill lines (including passives) if you like to play with 2 different staffs.

Don't you think?

The way its now, you only need to switch staffs if you want to go from DD to Tank ... no need to change skills, no need to learn the strength and weakness of the weapon and no leveling. Adding to it, anything you may miss in your build can be easily added with class skills ... you have a pletora to choose from.

Fine with me if each staff has it's own skill line. While we are at it let's give daggers swords axes their own skill lines as well.

As it is now my stam DK can go from DD to tank just as easy. And really changing a skill or two takes minimal effort on the players part. Might as well throw this in. If your tank is nothing but a damage dealer with a staff taunt and no crowd control you are going to have a lot of upset groups. Might as well slot Vigor and call yourself a healer.

Raraaku

other

Other.

I'd like to see 1 or 2 more stamina morphs in the Sorcerer and Templar classes to provide just a little more versatility for stamina characters in that class. NB and DK I think are good examples of having a balance of stamina and magicka morphs that are useful to either/or resource type characters.

Outside of that, I rather like things how they are right now.

DeadlyRecluse

nope

Magicka toons get broader class skill selections and manage mechanics (blocking, dodgerolling, break free) from their off-resource.

Stamina toons get broader weapon skill selections and manage buffs/utlility from their off resource.

Those are the core differences between magicka and stamina variants, and I don't really support any attempt to change those core distinctions.

TheHsN

other

it should have

Magicka
Stamina
PVP wise

So 3 maybe 4 Morhs t should have to be able make better balance

technohic

yeap

Yes, but not out of 2. Yes as in each morhp should have a stam and magicka version for 4 total. And we need more magicka based weapons.

josiahva

other

No...skills should have 3 or 4 or 5 different morphs...hell, each skill should be an entire branching tree...and magicka/stamina would just be the first branch to chose...but that would require them increasing the available skills in-game by 10 times or more, so sadly it will never happen

Elsterchen

yeap

kargen27 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

mrmongoose30 wrote: »

Ok seriously....can someone plz explain to me how having more options offer less choice. I see this argument all the time and can not wrap my head around it. It's like here is a table with some food and over there is a table with lots of food but people be saying the table with lots of food does not give as much choice???

Not sure which way you are arguing here. Each skill would still have only two choices if this change were made. As it is now you have to decide first if the skill is right for you and then decide which morph fits with what you are doing in the game. If one were stamina and one were magicka then there really is no choice to be made. If you have a stam based character you go with the stamina morph. So basically you have the same number of choices but half of them are really really bad for your character.

Exept if you play stamina and actually get the choice to use the skill at all. A choice one doesn#t have if both morphs are magica.

You may have missed this point. Both morphs of Falcon's Swiftness are open to a stam build, even though it's a magicka skill.

You may have missed the point that a stam morph of every skill is open to a magica build as well. Why do only stam users have to check their limited ressouce?

And before you start: every char has to dodge, break free and block ... stamina abilities beeing ~15% cheaper then their magica variants account for that already. To choose an ability from the number of abilities that do not support your main ressource is as tough for stamina users as it is for magica users.

The overall number in stamina morphs however is significantly lower then the number in magica morphs. Why do only stamina users have to make choices based on how well they can sustain an ability with their minor ressource?

@kargen27

There are stamina base skills and magicka base spells. For the most part the base can be morphed into one of two choices that draw from the same resource.

For 80% of class skills that same ressource is magica. This is exactly what one calls: one sided.

So how many duel wield morphs are magicka based?

Since when is DW skill line a class skill line?

... and there are as many DW skills magica based as there are restrostaff skills stamina based.

It isn't a class skill line and never has been. But you have to be fair. If you are going to take half the class skills away from magicka users you need to take half the skills away from the stamina users in the weapons skills lines.

If stam users are going to have full access to class skills then magicka users need full access to all weapon skills.

Only fair.

Actually it would be fair to introduce a single flame staff skill line, a single ice staff skill line and a single lightning staff skill line and have stick wielders enjoy the doubtfull pleasure of
a) having different play styles due to "missing parts" in design of skill line (i.e. gap-closer in DW)
b) having to level skills multiple times because Zeni just isn't up to the task of remembering that you actually did level that skill line already before patch... and just didn't use it because it was nerfed to ground or broken during last patch
c) have to spend their skill points in 2 skill lines (including passives) if you like to play with 2 different staffs.

Don't you think?

The way its now, you only need to switch staffs if you want to go from DD to Tank ... no need to change skills, no need to learn the strength and weakness of the weapon and no leveling. Adding to it, anything you may miss in your build can be easily added with class skills ... you have a pletora to choose from.

Fine with me if each staff has it's own skill line. While we are at it let's give daggers swords axes their own skill lines as well.

As it is now my stam DK can go from DD to tank just as easy. And really changing a skill or two takes minimal effort on the players part. Might as well throw this in. If your tank is nothing but a damage dealer with a staff taunt and no crowd control you are going to have a lot of upset groups. Might as well slot Vigor and call yourself a healer.

If they get a more defined usage, I am all in for a seperate dagger skill line etc... now its a rather small difference, concerning playstile. IMO just rather a flavour and not as role-defining as the differences the use of different staffs offer when using destruction skills.

Glad we find things to agree on, actually

Now, who is going to tell the DEVs?