Merlin13KAGL wrote: »Pretty sure you didn't PUG in the usual sense of the term.DMuehlhausen wrote: »Don't PUG...
look for a guild that is doing that content, that's always been the way of things
That's possible the worst comment on the forums...in well ever. Not everybody wants to be in a guild, nor chooses to be in a large guild. Some want smaller more personal guilds. The 4 man content should be easy enough to PuG.
Now that being said...they are puggable. I have gotten through almost all of them with PuGs. The problem is nobody is patient enough for teach or help people through a dungeon a few times. First time I was in Scalercaller the other day. It was PUG and we got through without a problem. The day before I pugged both vRoM and vCoS. I did vWGT the other day without a wipe on any boss in a PUG. Once people have time to learn them they are fine.
You got very lucky and happened to get grouped with four experienced people that knew what they were doing and were geared, skilled, and coordinated accordingly. Even if they'd never set foot in the specific dungeons, I'm guessing all were very well versed in their class and role. This is very different from what most would consider an actual "PuG" group.
It's like signing up for the carpool and you happen to get paired with three other Forumla One drivers. It can happen, but the odds of such are minute.There are requirements to clear content, and there is nothing wrong with expecting/wanting to run with people that are capable of doing so.Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Don't Pug or u able to carry
This mentality is whats wrong with the games polulation of PvE groups for the last 6-7 months.
Don't pug, dont meet new players, dont grow or foster a healthy thriving community of players going to help each other.
Stick to the old ways, in the same guild only running with the same people because its the only way to get through any content.
Sorry but this is a toxic mentality. Vet Trials should be the ONLY reason to seriously consider the exact people you need to bring not dungeons that are MEANT to be used to meet new players and help them grow. Now almost no one does the group finder for fear of these dungeons popping up on their Random dailies
This is not new. Before, it was pulling people from your friends list that you knew were capable. "Randoms" didn't get pulled in unless there was a spot that couldn't be filled. And if everyone did well, or better yet, exceptional, they generally got added to the friends list or invited to the guild.
Until they come up with a gauntlet for class/role, showing some level of "certification," if you will, this will continue. In the beginning, it was linking achievements, etc. The only thing that's changed is the criteria of the judgement.
The judgement has always been there.
While some view this as toxic or exclusive, it is equally ineffective to insist on proceeding when a group cannot synergize in such a way as to clear a piece of content. Brick walls do not magically inspire or motivate. They never have. They never will.
Carbonised wrote: »Funny thing is, I specifically recall them nerfing vWGT and vICP several times through the years, since their "statistics shows that people would often skip these dungeons as daily pledges, and the numbers showed that very few people actually finished these dungeons".
Fine and dandy, and then they friggin' go and add 6 more dungeons that make WGT and ICP look like a Sunday stroll in the park. And apparently we can look forward to 4 more of these every year, with no new dungeons added in in the usual veteran dungeon difficulty, or around the ICP/WGT ones.
What the heck? It's like one hand doesn't even know what the other one is doing. Why nerf IC dungeons due to numbers, when I can bet you those same numbers show even less people regularly doing and finishing Hist dungeons, Reach dungeons and Bones dungeons. Let alone HM.
I have been left cold by the last 6 dungeon dlcs because I think them too hard to be fun in vet, and only do-able in established groups with guildies unless you luck into an incredible PUG - and how often does that happen?
Now, I quite like Imperial Prison and don't think it its sister dungeon White Gold Tower is unfair but neither are favourites. But they are not the offending dungeons to my mind. The ones I have never enjoyed are The Hist dungeons, Ruins of Mazzarum and Cradle of Shadows. These are murderous in pugs and so very rarely successful via LFG. You can add to this list the DLC which followed, the Horns of the Reach dungeons Falkreath Hold and BloodRoot Forge. Then, just to make sure that Zenimax estranged hitherto happy dungeon goers like myself, they released the Dragon Bones dungeons, Scalecaller Peak and Fang Lair.
Long time guildies of mine will remember I used to live in dungeons during my online playtime but now I very rarely do them, and am wary or using the LFG tool for fear of getting a doomed-from-the start later-dlc run or worse, a "blue portal of death" run (where usually one or two lowbie DDs have come up against hard bosses, the group has split and rather than admit defeat you get sucked into their train crash via LFG, as a replacement for the players who rightly fled).
Now of course people will say that they have occasionally got lucky with PUGs via LFG but that's exceptionally rare in my experience.
I think the last 6 dungeons appeal only to a minority of players, almost entirely already guildies or friends and that the expectation of failure in a pug undermines the spontaneity one used to enjoy in signing up for vet dungeon run via lfg. We can of course arrange guild runs when the right ppl are online to make a group viable, but that's not the point. I miss most, whenhaving say, only an hour or so playtime available, being able to sign up to any dungeon on my healer or tank via lfg and at least feel we had a decent crack at completing a dungeon. I no longer do and have effectively withdrawn from dungeon life unless ppl need me to pitch in in our guild..
And that's a real shame.
I propose that there should be three tiers of difficulty for the 6 dlc dungeons: an elite mode, for want of a better term (suggestions?) to please those people who meet in established groups to complete the 6 vet dungeons mentioned above. This would be similar in difficulty to the current vet default, where PUGs will rarely succeed. The default vet mode would then be pitched somewhere between that and normal hence achievable with pugs, but somewhat challenging still. Normals would remain as they are. In other words, the highest tier of difficulty would be the current vet HMs, which would have to be opted into via lfg, but the default difficulty for dlc vets would be lower and Puggable, which, in the main, they currently are not.
Thoughts?
ESO should have standardised the difficulty of the dungeons long time ago. Not just dlc but each and every dungeon. We used to have 54 scales of dungeons before 1T now it’s all gone.
Currently normal, veteran and “hard” mode dungeons vary widely in challenge levels. This makes group finder even more of a gambling than it should be. I’d like to see them balanced to a similar difficulty level accross 5 scales (for now at least, with option for future harder versions).
Scale 1: easy normal dungeons like FG1 or VoM, aimed at all levels
Scale 2: harder (old type “II”) normal dungeons like SC2 or EH2, aimed at lvl 45+
Scale 3: easier veteran dungeons like CoA1 or FG1, aimed at low cp players
Scale 4: harder veteran dungeons like CoA2 or WGT, aimed at cp 300+
Scale 5: hard mode of dungeons with the whole instance beefed up to a harder mode than today (as necessary, varies based on dungeon), aimed at cp 600+. No more scrolls for hard mode, need to pick it before entering.
Queueing for a specific scale would require to complete the dungeon on the previous scale before (ie. “Conqueror” achievement).
This... + give some incentive to actually run those modes. For starters, change the bonus xp and rewards for running random normals vs veterans so not everyone runs normals only.
Carbonised wrote: »Funny thing is, I specifically recall them nerfing vWGT and vICP several times through the years, since their "statistics shows that people would often skip these dungeons as daily pledges, and the numbers showed that very few people actually finished these dungeons".
Fine and dandy, and then they friggin' go and add 6 more dungeons that make WGT and ICP look like a Sunday stroll in the park. And apparently we can look forward to 4 more of these every year, with no new dungeons added in in the usual veteran dungeon difficulty, or around the ICP/WGT ones.
What the heck? It's like one hand doesn't even know what the other one is doing. Why nerf IC dungeons due to numbers, when I can bet you those same numbers show even less people regularly doing and finishing Hist dungeons, Reach dungeons and Bones dungeons. Let alone HM.
Merlin13KAGL wrote: »[..]Before, it was pulling people from your friends list that you knew were capable. "Randoms" didn't get pulled in unless there was a spot that couldn't be filled. And if everyone did well, or better yet, exceptional, they generally got added to the friends list or invited to the guild.
You can't tell me that you don't have "go-to" people, people that everyone breathes a sigh of relief when they get added to the group. You equally can't tell me that there haven't been people that make the group cringe, due to history. it doesn't mean that can never change, but typically, it doesn't.
Until they come up with a gauntlet for class/role, showing some level of "certification," if you will, this will continue. In the beginning, it was linking achievements, etc. The only thing that's changed is the criteria of the judgement.
The judgement has always been there.
While some view this as toxic or exclusive, it is equally ineffective to insist on proceeding when a group cannot synergize in such a way as to clear a piece of content. Brick walls do not magically inspire or motivate. They never have. They never will.
You really were able to PUG the Planar Inhibitor and Molag Kena? You are lucky
Here's your original post (to which I replied)Nelson_Rebel wrote: »You have a mental block to ingnore every other point that was made other than the word "toxic"
Im not having a conversation with someone who
will pick one thing to take it out of context to twist into their own argument off topic argument from the main point that was made and subsequently ignored
The reality is certain content, beyond just Vet Trials, do require a certain level of experience, build, and player ability.Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Don't Pug or u able to carry
This mentality is whats wrong with the games polulation of PvE groups for the last 6-7 months.
Don't pug, dont meet new players, dont grow or foster a healthy thriving community of players going to help each other.
Stick to the old ways, in the same guild only running with the same people because its the only way to get through any content.
Sorry but this is a toxic mentality. Vet Trials should be the ONLY reason to seriously consider the exact people you need to bring not dungeons that are MEANT to be used to meet new players and help them grow. Now almost no one does the group finder for fear of these dungeons popping up on their Random dailies
Yeah, "Norm" is the "Here you go, you paid for the content." mode. I understand they want sales. I understand if you buy something, you'd like half a chance at seeing the last boss.100% agree.
And the reason they won't is because they want people to be able to access the content. Nobody cares if people can't complete it (well, the people trying to complete do, I guess), the important bit is that they can access it.
I personally don't care, as I'm 3 different guilds that provide me with people capable of doing the content, but I guess it would actually be beneficial to people relying on the GF.
Still, it probably won't happen, they'll just raise the cap to CP 400 or something.
Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
snip
@Aisle9 What I anticipate will happen is character scaling will go from CP160 to CP300/400 or so. This will make the current facerolls even faceroll-ier, and as a result, they'll dial up the hard modes even further still.
snip
Urgh I hate how this forum doesn't do quotes right. Below is Tabby's reply to the above that got blended in with the quote even though the /quote is above this line. Grrr
I don't think they will change character scaling to 300/400 CP, at least not with Summerset. They would have to increase CP armor/weapons etc and a lot of people would be really angry about that.
It is equally the responsibility of the player to indicated they've never been in there before, only up to this part, or would like a refresher/explanation of mechanics.Rodgerwilco1 wrote: »In reading all the different comments here, I am struck by one thing that bugs me about dungeon crawls, and some have commented on it; the lack of teaching the mechanics of the instance. I am a bit wary of joining PUGs for a given instance because I don't run them and don't know what to expect in them. The good groups I have been in have asked if everyone knows the instance and if not will take the time to tell you about it as well as give some instruction for the different boss fights. I have been booted out of groups because the leader didn't like the way I was playing, yet never gave instruction on how the instance should be run, just started the run like we all should know what to do.
I think the general rule for a given instance PUG should be to ask if everyone knows what to do. If you don't get asked that bale right from the start.
I might add that I'm smart enough not to think I can run a high lvl instance with a low lvl toon. And as for helping, I have run into a lot of players willing to just group up with me when I run into problems in the public dungeons.
In a different light; The open world bosses are a blast BTW; just jump in... :-)
Merlin13KAGL wrote: »It is equally the responsibility of the player to indicated they've never been in there before, only up to this part, or would like a refresher/explanation of mechanics.Rodgerwilco1 wrote: »In reading all the different comments here, I am struck by one thing that bugs me about dungeon crawls, and some have commented on it; the lack of teaching the mechanics of the instance. I am a bit wary of joining PUGs for a given instance because I don't run them and don't know what to expect in them. The good groups I have been in have asked if everyone knows the instance and if not will take the time to tell you about it as well as give some instruction for the different boss fights. I have been booted out of groups because the leader didn't like the way I was playing, yet never gave instruction on how the instance should be run, just started the run like we all should know what to do.
I think the general rule for a given instance PUG should be to ask if everyone knows what to do. If you don't get asked that bale right from the start.
I might add that I'm smart enough not to think I can run a high lvl instance with a low lvl toon. And as for helping, I have run into a lot of players willing to just group up with me when I run into problems in the public dungeons.
In a different light; The open world bosses are a blast BTW; just jump in... :-)
It goes both ways.
If the group is above CP XXX and the content is not freshly released, it is more common to assume that people know than to automatically assume they don't.
1. The OP declares something to be a fact - that the 6 DLC dungeons are not PUG-able - and premises most of their post on it.
My point is that the statement "dungeons X are not PUG-able" is flat-out wrong and is really the standard mindless Internet hyperbole one tends to see on these (and other) forums. Had the OP instead opted for "dungeons X are significantly more difficult in a PUG" - that I would agree with, but it would have forced a rewrite of much of the original post. "
No I didn't. From the outset I declared that finding a pug capable or completing the later dlc dungeons was exceptionally rare in my experience. - very far from stating it as a fact.
Disagree with me if you must, but please don't misrepresent what I said.
Emma_Overload wrote: »All the usual arguments: git gud, l2p, find a guild blah blah blah. Even people in my guilds don't want to do DLC dungeons!
The fact is that ZOS hasn't made any new MEDIUM difficulty content since the base game vet dungeons. I don't recommend buying the dungeon DLCs to anybody, and I won't buy any more of them, either.
I'm glad that SOMEBODY enjoys the DLCs, but why should the rest of us subsidize them? When are they going to make fun, challenging content for the majority?
Xoelarasizerer wrote: », but if these DLC dungeons' Vet modes are getting harder and harder with each release, I'm not even gonna bother wasting my time with Vet Pugs on the Dragonbone Dungs.
.