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Last 6 dlc dungeons too difficult, not puggable

I have been left cold by the last 6 dungeon dlcs because I think them too hard to be fun in vet, and only do-able in established groups with guildies unless you luck into an incredible PUG - and how often does that happen?

Now, I quite like Imperial Prison and don't think it its sister dungeon White Gold Tower is unfair but neither are favourites. But they are not the offending dungeons to my mind. The ones I have never enjoyed are The Hist dungeons, Ruins of Mazzarum and Cradle of Shadows. These are murderous in pugs and so very rarely successful via LFG. You can add to this list the DLC which followed, the Horns of the Reach dungeons Falkreath Hold and BloodRoot Forge. Then, just to make sure that Zenimax estranged hitherto happy dungeon goers like myself, they released the Dragon Bones dungeons, Scalecaller Peak and Fang Lair.

Long time guildies of mine will remember I used to live in dungeons during my online playtime but now I very rarely do them, and am wary or using the LFG tool for fear of getting a doomed-from-the start later-dlc run or worse, a "blue portal of death" run (where usually one or two lowbie DDs have come up against hard bosses, the group has split and rather than admit defeat you get sucked into their train crash via LFG, as a replacement for the players who rightly fled).

Now of course people will say that they have occasionally got lucky with PUGs via LFG but that's exceptionally rare in my experience.

I think the last 6 dungeons appeal only to a minority of players, almost entirely already guildies or friends and that the expectation of failure in a pug undermines the spontaneity one used to enjoy in signing up for vet dungeon run via lfg. We can of course arrange guild runs when the right ppl are online to make a group viable, but that's not the point. I miss most, whenhaving say, only an hour or so playtime available, being able to sign up to any dungeon on my healer or tank via lfg and at least feel we had a decent crack at completing a dungeon. I no longer do and have effectively withdrawn from dungeon life unless ppl need me to pitch in in our guild..

And that's a real shame.

I propose that there should be three tiers of difficulty for the 6 dlc dungeons: an elite mode, for want of a better term (suggestions?) to please those people who meet in established groups to complete the 6 vet dungeons mentioned above. This would be similar in difficulty to the current vet default, where PUGs will rarely succeed. The default vet mode would then be pitched somewhere between that and normal hence achievable with pugs, but somewhat challenging still. Normals would remain as they are. In other words, the highest tier of difficulty would be the current vet HMs, which would have to be opted into via lfg, but the default difficulty for dlc vets would be lower and Puggable, which, in the main, they currently are not.

  • Aurielle
    My first clears of vSP and vFL were with pugs, so... YMMV. *shrug* Your best bet for clearing vet DLC dungeons when they’re the pledges is to run with guildies. Not always ideal, but it’s the best option we’ve got. Three difficulty tiers would increase queue times significantly, and they’re already bad when you’re queued as a damage dealer.
  • Bigevilpeter
    Every new dungeon takes time for people to learn their mechanics I remeber when people though WGT and ICP were extreemly hard and now they are pugged cause most people know their mechanics by now.

    Hist dungeons have been puggable for a while now you just need to ask of they have done it before adding them to the group, I pugged them a lot

    I quit ESO a bit after morrowind and just came back so I don't know much about the new dungeons but I'm guessing it will be the same eventually.
  • Chaos2088
    These dungeons were designed with end players in mind, so people who have completed vet dungeons time and time again.

    But yes people who are just getting into them/don't do that often/or intermediate players can find them difficult. Do look for people in guilds to run with as mentioned above. Sometimes you can get a few pug grps who can do it. But thats 50/50. lol

    It would be ace if we had Normal, Vet, and Elite/Legendary modes. Taking DLC vet lvl of difficulty into that Elite mode. But then I supposed people who say that mode would be too hard.

    There is a good reason why there is hard content in the game, would be dull if there wasn't any. But yes in the DLC dungs there is a very large difference between normal and vet.

    I am still waiting for version 2 of some of the base game dungeons! ;)
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  • Peekachu99
    DanteYoda wrote: »
    Its why i don't do dungeons.. You either pug and fail or suffer through with elitists..

    Honestly all this git gud bs these days.. I remember days when it took upwards of 50 players to complete dungeons.. Sucked then and it sucks now..

    They need to scale difficulty on peoples cp and amount of people in teams, this elitist minority of bigots that ruin team content these days, they are disgusting people...
    It will just end up that some people just won't buy the dungeon dlc if they know they won't compete them, seems a bad business model to me

    If i didn't get the content for free with eso+ i know i wouldn't buy them, the communities that run these things are toxic and abysmal.. as bad as pvpers..

    You’re conflating eletists with people who are actually geared, competent and ready for the hardest content in the game, vs. those who aren’t and come in with this “play as I want” mentality with their 2h 30k HP stamplar dps (this happened today in Bloodforge) expecting to somehow contribute meaningfully to the group.

    I think the only thing ZOS can do is to continue to enforce the difficulty through CP requirements and perhaps even messaging that “THIS CONTENT IS HARD YO!” when people are picking up pledges from the orc lady.
  • TheValar85
    i god i am so with you :D Not kidding even in normal it is painful sometimes. Considering alot of bosses hp is way bigger in normal, almost as big as in veteran. Wich is a bit too much for the new comemrs, basicly yesterday i had to solo Falkreth Hold cos the the others were dead on every boss.... (in normal) im not going to mention vet becasue thats more bad.

    Yeah i know do it with guild is betetr, but basicly those 5 guilds then i am in they bearly even have a discusssion in guild chat or on discord. i dont know people burned out or something?
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  • niawrathb16_ESO
    I think the latest DLC dungeons are the most fun I have had in a 4 man group in ages a nice challenge but doable .
    As for the LFG tool in Summerset patch notes it says -
    "The Following Dungeons have been adjusted to require CP300 in order to queue using the Activity Finder:
    Veteran Bloodroot Forge
    Veteran Cradle of Shadows
    Veteran Falkreath Hold
    Veteran Fang Lair
    Veteran Imperial City Prison
    Veteran Ruins of Mazzatun
    Veteran Scalecaller Peak
    Veteran White-Gold Tower "

    Which should help bad luck you may have in finding players with not enough experience for the DLC dungeons. Although CP does not always correlate to ability it should help.
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  • kylewwefan
    I see no reason to exclude WGT and ICP from the list. They’re all abortion runs with group finder. You know how many times I’ve come in blue Portal at the planar inhibitors or the flesh sculptor. It’s the worst part about having ESO+

    I haven’t had a pug beat the first boss of scalecaller yet. Even most pugs can beat the regular non- dlc Vet dungeons in 15 to 20 minutes. You spend that much time on the first boss. Forget about it. The groups not gonna beat the dungeon.

    I will say, they are fun with a good group that has right builds/roles. Good damage, real tank and healer that can also DPS a little.

    This doesn’t happen very often though. And hardmodes are often far out of the question. Even in good groups. And they can take awhile, Also with good groups.
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  • Nelson_Rebel
    Even months after shadows of the hist dropped that dungeon is still very much un puggable without an exceptional group that is already well versed in how to do mechanics

    Me and my guild were able to beat Vet Scalecaller peak the day it came out, but I already know I would NEVER pug for it, and I would never Pug the other Dlc dungeons either. They are of a different level of difficulty.

    So I suspect the majority of players in this game dont even attempt it, or even the older dlc dungeons because its been ingrained for so long that they are unpuggable.

    Quite sad really how little is left of the PvE dungeons and trials scene, just 6 months ago there was always groups Lfg in zone chat or on mics looking for that extra 1 to fill their group but were always pugging with people back then.

    I agree, that the difficulty of content across the board needs to be slightly tuned down, but not just by blanket HP nerfs or pve mobs damage reduced. They need to start looking at these dungeons specific mechanics and see whats just over the top killing players hundreds of times over and think about adjusting them to be a bit less punishing of boring, cheesy, extra 1 shot AoE galore fest it currently is right now.
    Edited by Nelson_Rebel on April 23, 2018 12:08PM
  • ccfeeling
    Don't Pug or u able to carry :D
  • DMuehlhausen
    Gythral wrote: »
    Don't PUG...
    look for a guild that is doing that content, that's always been the way of things

    That's possible the worst comment on the well ever. Not everybody wants to be in a guild, nor chooses to be in a large guild. Some want smaller more personal guilds. The 4 man content should be easy enough to PuG.

    Now that being said...they are puggable. I have gotten through almost all of them with PuGs. The problem is nobody is patient enough for teach or help people through a dungeon a few times. First time I was in Scalercaller the other day. It was PUG and we got through without a problem. The day before I pugged both vRoM and vCoS. I did vWGT the other day without a wipe on any boss in a PUG. Once people have time to learn them they are fine.
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Gythral wrote: »
    Don't PUG...
    look for a guild that is doing that content, that's always been the way of things

    That's possible the worst comment on the well ever. Not everybody wants to be in a guild, nor chooses to be in a large guild. Some want smaller more personal guilds. The 4 man content should be easy enough to PuG.

    Now that being said...they are puggable. I have gotten through almost all of them with PuGs. The problem is nobody is patient enough for teach or help people through a dungeon a few times. First time I was in Scalercaller the other day. It was PUG and we got through without a problem. The day before I pugged both vRoM and vCoS. I did vWGT the other day without a wipe on any boss in a PUG. Once people have time to learn them they are fine.
    Pretty sure you didn't PUG in the usual sense of the term.

    You got very lucky and happened to get grouped with four experienced people that knew what they were doing and were geared, skilled, and coordinated accordingly. Even if they'd never set foot in the specific dungeons, I'm guessing all were very well versed in their class and role. This is very different from what most would consider an actual "PuG" group.

    It's like signing up for the carpool and you happen to get paired with three other Forumla One drivers. It can happen, but the odds of such are minute.
    ccfeeling wrote: »
    Don't Pug or u able to carry :D

    This mentality is whats wrong with the games polulation of PvE groups for the last 6-7 months.

    Don't pug, dont meet new players, dont grow or foster a healthy thriving community of players going to help each other.

    Stick to the old ways, in the same guild only running with the same people because its the only way to get through any content.

    Sorry but this is a toxic mentality. Vet Trials should be the ONLY reason to seriously consider the exact people you need to bring not dungeons that are MEANT to be used to meet new players and help them grow. Now almost no one does the group finder for fear of these dungeons popping up on their Random dailies
    There are requirements to clear content, and there is nothing wrong with expecting/wanting to run with people that are capable of doing so.

    This is not new. Before, it was pulling people from your friends list that you knew were capable. "Randoms" didn't get pulled in unless there was a spot that couldn't be filled. And if everyone did well, or better yet, exceptional, they generally got added to the friends list or invited to the guild.

    You can't tell me that you don't have "go-to" people, people that everyone breathes a sigh of relief when they get added to the group. You equally can't tell me that there haven't been people that make the group cringe, due to history. it doesn't mean that can never change, but typically, it doesn't.

    Until they come up with a gauntlet for class/role, showing some level of "certification," if you will, this will continue. In the beginning, it was linking achievements, etc. The only thing that's changed is the criteria of the judgement.

    The judgement has always been there.

    While some view this as toxic or exclusive, it is equally ineffective to insist on proceeding when a group cannot synergize in such a way as to clear a piece of content. Brick walls do not magically inspire or motivate. They never have. They never will.

    Edited by Merlin13KAGL on April 23, 2018 12:25PM
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

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