Last 6 dlc dungeons too difficult, not puggable

Merlin13KAGL

Waffennacht wrote: »

Fyi: in every dlc dungeon, the precursor fights show you the mechanics in the upcoming boss fight.

I.e. in scale caller, your first mob shows you what the non-moving ogre does, second mob shows you mobile ogre abilities, third mob shows you the two ogres combined.

They are easy mobs, which leads most players to just pwn them without watching what they do. It's actually a teaching method.

I actually only picked up on it by trying to solo some dlc dungeons

@Waffennacht , as another aside, some of the normals (I think this was a recent addition) actually include different or additional NPC voiceover too, to point you towards intended mechanics. ( I ran nScalecaller once as an assist with a friend's lowbie random and first noticed this.)

The problem in both cases is most less experienced groups are not going to realize either of these facts right away.

Carbonised

sudaki_eso wrote: »

gabriebe wrote: »

It would be a lot easier if there was an in-game voice system like they (presumably) have on console.

As a console player, it doesnt help because no one is using it. I am doing a lot of dungeons with pugs and not once did anybody made use of the in-game voice system, someone might have an open mic and you hear a baby crying somewhere, something like that, but thats it.
In one of my guilds we also communicate over an app and yesterday one guy was asking if we got dungeon guides because no one is explaining a thing and everybody is just rushing through - lack of communication is the problem.

Honestly I'd hate to be forced into speaking vocally with some complete strangers in another country just in order to finish a stupid dungeon. I mean, it's an MMO, but does that really mean I have to be forced to have such interactions with complete strangers just to participate in some content?

It makes me glad that I play on PC, where the only times you join up with people on voice com are voluntarily on Discord or Teamspeak with your guildies.

Call me asocial, but I prefer it like that.

visionality

I'm perfectly fine with difficult dlc vet dungeons - there has to be content that is a challenge for players.

Also, vet DLC dungeons like vRoM or vSC ARE puggable - I did all vet DLC dungeons a lot of times with randoms. There is just two conditions to doing vet dungeons with random groups: (1) all members must be at least averagely skilled, (2) everybody must be able to understand and follow mechanics. (And ofc you yourself must be good enough to outbalance some mistakes of less experienced players.)

Random groups normally fail for two reasons: (1) players never learend basic gameplay because they speedleveled their chars and sprinted through dungeons without ever caring about mechanics; (2) players dont communicate - e.g. ask for tips if they are in a dungeon for the first time or explain the mechanics to someone who is struggling.

If you're a good player with a bit of patience and normal social skills, you might even enjoy doing vet DLC dungeons with randoms.

Xuhora

@Carbonised i asked why youd want a third skilltier to these and then proceeded to show you what happens if they would implement that for the reason you gave me. nothing hyperbolic about that, just your reasoning thrown back at you...

But i see, you couldnt handle it.

Vahrokh

"Git gud"

In a game whose 95% of the content is made around Farmville level players.

In a game where 70% of the current characters levelled up repeating Al'Akir dolmens.

Gohavoc

lmfao! im on console and all i need is one other player and i can solo mazzatun, prison, tower, cradle, bloodforge, etc

Cryptical

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Fyi: in every dlc dungeon, the precursor fights show you the mechanics in the upcoming boss fight.

I.e. in scale caller, your first mob shows you what the non-moving ogre does, second mob shows you mobile ogre abilities, third mob shows you the two ogres combined.

They are easy mobs, which leads most players to just pwn them without watching what they do. It's actually a teaching method.

I actually only picked up on it by trying to solo some dlc dungeons

@Waffennacht , as another aside, some of the normals (I think this was a recent addition) actually include different or additional NPC voiceover too, to point you towards intended mechanics. ( I ran nScalecaller once as an assist with a friend's lowbie random and first noticed this.)

The problem in both cases is most less experienced groups are not going to realize either of these facts right away.

Yes, that alchemy guy calls out that the ogre pestilence gets stronger when they are together. He tells you that you must not let the stone orb roam free. And that he needs imp guts, strangler sap, or beetle something to antidote the plague concocter poison.

If you turn on subtitles, you see his hints as well as hear them.

And so many people kill themselves by leaping straight in. Why do they do that? Because with high dps pressure almost any mechanic can be ignored. Zaan can be a 4 minute burn, skipping lots of those fire mechanics and severely limiting the statue blasts and such. Dps burn can push through the giant matriarch with little attention to the piling up nereids.

I once thought that merely creating a painful disincentive to high dps would nudge people into being more than an automaton running a macro on their fingers, staring at their resource bar. I was wrong. A mechanic needs to be introduced that cannot be burned past. People won’t look for a different method unless they have no choice. I’ve a few ideas, but that’s for another thread because it’s the exact opposite of this one - they would make a dungeon even less likely to be tossed flippantly into the ‘completed’ pile.

BejaProphet

I like it, but it won't solve what you are lamenting.

I like the idea of three dungeon tiers. Because I think there should be one tier that is friendly to those just beginning. Normal works wonderfully for this. There should always be something for those desiring an extreme challenge. I think creating an in between level really frees the developers up to let the other two be those things. They can unapologetically make the high tier brutal, and the lower tier easy.

I don't think this will solve anything. Because people are going to just want to do the hardest stuff and be upset that the hard stuff is hard, no matter what developers do. Probably.

josiahva

Carbonised wrote: »

@Waffennacht and others

On PC there is no voice chat, unless you plug in to Discord or Teamspeak, which you normally only do for a guild and not a random PUG.

1 of every 5 people you meet in a PUG on PC-EU is a Russian who doesn't understand a word English. You'd be lucky to even get a reply from him when you ask if he knows the mechanics, and if you do get one, it's in Cyrillic.

1 of the other 5 is an impatient, aggressive noob who engages bosses prematurely despite you trying to explain the mechanics via text chat.

The 3rd of the 5 is a low CP noob with poor knowledge of dungeon mechanics, who looks to get carried through it all even with his abysmal DPS.

On a good day, the 4th person out of 5 might actually be good.

DLC dungeons, with their circus mechanics and 1 shots, makes it so that even 1 noob is a liability. If someone doesn't grab pinion, if someone doesn't close portals, it's RIP.

Even people high in CP ignore totems on Mazzatun and just keep dpsing the boss, or run around in circles like headless chicken. Do you think anyone will even mark the right statue for you? No. You tell people to kill totems immediately and prioritize them, yet group keeps ignoring them, or notice them when they're half empty of resources.
Do you think anyone even grabs the spice either at Xal-Nur, and clean it? Or run Chudan to the right place to get rid of the lightning caster?

People don't interrupt Dranos Velandor, and it's RIP for the tank. People die in the Velidreth maze constantly, and even if you do it right, you're back at Velidreth with 2 people dead and have to instantly try and ress while dealing with her anti-ressing CC and a ton of adds.

People keep DPSing Caillaoife when she calls her forest, and ignore adds. People ignore Stone Atros at Stoneheart, and let them enrage. They don't run the 3 minibosses' essences to the piedestals in order to summon Cernunnon, don't cleanse corpses at Bjarfrud, and Domihaus will just plain own anyone who isn't completely aware of the mechanics.

And Scalecaller and Fang Lair are even more full of one shots and circus hoop mechanics than any other of the earlier DLC dungeons.

No amount of good tanking will really get any PUG group through all of that.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Good tanking will get anyone through all of that(except Domihaus...I just haven't found a way to do much of anything about his last 15% constant ad summoning phase as a tank...can only taunt so many things and still manage to keep an eye on boss's heavy attack...and the arena is terrible...hard to get a taunt refresh on the boss with ads cluttering up everything)

Clear communication on the tree minder WILL keep people focused on totems and statues...I do this ALL THE TIME without voice chat.(Even HM, I drag the boss to the statue in question)

As a tank, on Xal-Nur, I ALWAYS grab the first leg of the spice run. Since I can choose where to position Xal-Nur and always have rapids slotted, I can often make this a one-leg spice run...the only downside is while I am running the spice the DPS have to watch out for his charge...no big deal for a halfway competent DPS.

For Dranos...as a tank...here is a hint for you: EQUIP AN ARMOR SET THAT GIVES YOU 50k HEALTH! If at full health and you have 50k...even if the DPS dont interrupt the ads, Dranos CANT one-shot you. It also helps if you spam shields. For this fight, my favorite equipment combo is Imperium/Plague Doctor/Chudan. Imperium is nice because because its proc can happen even while you are pinned. Also...make sure as a tank you are not near other people while he is "searching for the weak link" dont get caught in other group member's bad AoE while Dranos jumps around...this will cause you to drop below 100% and die to his one-shot if he isnt interrupted.

For Calliofe, again you must communicate that plants are priority(the other ads the tank can generally handle until the DPS get around to killing them)

For Cerunnon...as tank, YOU run the essences to the pedestal...its not difficult, a couple roll dodges gets you there.(this can also be done by any DPS)

Cleansing the corpses at Bjarfrud is really optional if the group has good DPS. High DPS can burn through and ignore that entirely...but, again, the tank can cleanse some of the corpses...maybe not all, but enough for the group to generally survive...if not, then again, communication(Not knowing Cryllic is no excuse by the way, google translate is a thing...it works)

The point is this: As the tank you can do your job and take the lead in these fights...even if not a tank you can often easily pick up other's slack.

Cryptical

Here’s a thing I would like.

A housing space we can configure into dungeon rooms. Base foundation of deep water / lava / floor.

Terrain features and some generic mobs we can place.

TwistedThoughtz

I’ve pugged almost all of the dlc dungeons, communicate with your group and identify the problems that your group is having. Patience and communication brother.

mike_skleinub17_ESO

how often does Earthgore helm show up on the gold vendor? And that's in Cyrodil?

Pugged nBlood last night. Wasn't pretty, and I need more health/defense, but we got it done. One 720 dps, one 180-ish tank, a cp26 dps and my heals at 425 or so. BS fire damage everywhere is BS

Waffennacht

@Gohavoc veteran

fred4

mocap wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I waited 6 months for Troll King. By that time I had (a) farmed it anyway and (b) it wasn't even relevant to my build anymore.

Troll King isn't DLC dungeon set. Blessed Crucible is easy dungeon even pug vet hm.

That wasn't the point. The point was that it took 6 months before it first showed up at the Golden vendor. You also have to remember that, at that time, there was no transmutation ... and I can't remember when loot sharing was introduced. Basically you could spend a long time trying to get it in Impenetrable, in the right weight, for PvP.

fred4

Cryptical wrote: »

And so many people kill themselves by leaping straight in. Why do they do that? Because with high dps pressure almost any mechanic can be ignored. Zaan can be a 4 minute burn, skipping lots of those fire mechanics and severely limiting the statue blasts and such.

Just as a matter of interest, the reason my groups fail is typically lack of DPS. I, myself, have been unable to get above 28K self-buffed DPS on a target skeleton. This is with a completely PvE optimised build and rotation, albeit without trial set(s) that include major / minor slayer or the like. That's under ideal conditions. In a dungeon my single-target DPS is usually considerably lower. I have literally no idea how people on YouTube do it, even with a very similar rotation. Yes, I weave light attacks. Yes I swap cancel. Yes I have ulti ready for DPS parse tests. Yes I am full CP. (This is on magblade). Basically, for all I know, everyone on YouTube is spreading misinformation and laughing their a's off behind my back.

The last dungeon we attempted with my group of friends and one random was vSP. The random DPS was CP250, but rather good and persistent considering. We got as far as the last fight after several hours (my first time there). We noticed that the ice monsters seemed to spawn after every 20% of Zaan's health, so you could pace the fight and be at full resources at those points, even with a lack of DPS. Blocking Zaan was fine. The tank was basically on it. What completely screwed us over were the statue blasts. We didn't complete the dungeon. No, I am not the guy who stands in stupid. But if you are anywhere towards the door, you cannot dodge roll out of the red within the one second it gives you, and even if you do, you get 1-shot, if it looks you are outside, but you haven't completed the animation yet.

they would make a dungeon even less likely to be tossed flippantly into the ‘completed’ pile.

Again, the people you are talking about are not me. I don't care about achievements. I am even happy to farm blue jewelry. What I do care about is getting a Zaan mask, which is hidden behind a wall for me. I am a PvPer. Saying to wait for the Golden doesn't work, as already explained. I swear the Golden is programmed to only regurgitate old or useless stuff.

The whole dungeon scene is, by and large, completely unenjoyable for me. It can be nice with friends, but it ends up you spend hours that you don't really have and that eventually strain everyone in the group. I only want to try the stupid OP mask in PvP and see whether it works for me. Not that many people actually use it on PC EU.

It could happen that I will be carried by a random or guild group. As a gaming experience I find that completely awful and unsatisfactory. Everyone just rushes through. You don't even talk. If you are doing the dungeon quest for the first time, you perennially lag behind. You don't follow the story. You don't even enjoy the really beautiful scenery of something like Scalecaller Peak. You just feel pressure. Coming from Skyrim and growing up with questing on my first character in ESO, I was completely aghast by my first dungeon experiences. Basically that's still how I feel about doing dungeons with randoms. It's not the place where you bond.

Gohavoc

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Gohavoc veteran

ah ok but still, it's not that bad on vet either.

Gohavoc

you should have been around when I.C.P and W.G.T were first released hahahaha that was such a !%#$ around. *molag kena spin kicks you across the map into the fire* XD

Cryptical

fred4 wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

And so many people kill themselves by leaping straight in. Why do they do that? Because with high dps pressure almost any mechanic can be ignored. Zaan can be a 4 minute burn, skipping lots of those fire mechanics and severely limiting the statue blasts and such.

Just as a matter of interest, the reason my groups fail is typically lack of DPS. I, myself, have been unable to get above 28K self-buffed DPS on a target skeleton. This is with a completely PvE optimised build and rotation, albeit without trial set(s) that include major / minor slayer or the like. That's under ideal conditions. In a dungeon my single-target DPS is usually considerably lower. I have literally no idea how people on YouTube do it, even with a very similar rotation. Yes, I weave light attacks. Yes I swap cancel. Yes I have ulti ready for DPS parse tests. Yes I am full CP. (This is on magblade). Basically, for all I know, everyone on YouTube is spreading misinformation and laughing their a's off behind my back.

The last dungeon we attempted with my group of friends and one random was vSP. The random DPS was CP250, but rather good and persistent considering. We got as far as the last fight after several hours (my first time there). We noticed that the ice monsters seemed to spawn after every 20% of Zaan's health, so you could pace the fight and be at full resources at those points, even with a lack of DPS. Blocking Zaan was fine. The tank was basically on it. What completely screwed us over were the statue blasts. We didn't complete the dungeon. No, I am not the guy who stands in stupid. But if you are anywhere towards the door, you cannot dodge roll out of the red within the one second it gives you, and even if you do, you get 1-shot, if it looks you are outside, but you haven't completed the animation yet.

they would make a dungeon even less likely to be tossed flippantly into the ‘completed’ pile.

Again, the people you are talking about are not me. I don't care about achievements. I am even happy to farm blue jewelry. What I do care about is getting a Zaan mask, which is hidden behind a wall for me. I am a PvPer. Saying to wait for the Golden doesn't work, as already explained. I swear the Golden is programmed to only regurgitate old or useless stuff.

The whole dungeon scene is, by and large, completely unenjoyable for me. It can be nice with friends, but it ends up you spend hours that you don't really have and that eventually strain everyone in the group. I only want to try the stupid OP mask in PvP and see whether it works for me. Not that many people actually use it on PC EU.

It could happen that I will be carried by a random or guild group. As a gaming experience I find that completely awful and unsatisfactory. Everyone just rushes through. You don't even talk. If you are doing the dungeon quest for the first time, you perennially lag behind. You don't follow the story. You don't even enjoy the really beautiful scenery of something like Scalecaller Peak. You just feel pressure. Coming from Skyrim and growing up with questing on my first character in ESO, I was completely aghast by my first dungeon experiences. Basically that's still how I feel about doing dungeons with randoms. It's not the place where you bond.

Dude, you’re more of an example of someone that depends on their dps to pull them through than I was describing. You leaped straight into vet without having been through it at all before, and yet expected to have a clear to get a helm, but did it with mid level dps numbers. That's treating the dungeon pretty flippantly.

As far as your damage, are you respecting the champ jump points? As in, you have heard that it rounds down to the nearest full percentage number. So 12% and 12.9% both give the exact same boost. Furthermore, you have noticed that the lower amounts of points you put into a star get a larger boost than when you spend more and more points, right? As in, the first two points you put into elfborn give you a full percent, but going from 51 to 53 only gives you 0.47%. So you have to cut yourself off before you spend more and more to get smaller and smaller boost. I don't go above 66 points in elfborn. I get more benefit putting points elsewhere than to keep shoveling them into elfborn, as an example.

Statue blasts... If you had gone through on normal you likely would have had enough of a safety margin to learn that the statues flash a split second before the big red aoe warning floods across the floor. So with that marginal allowance for errors you may have had the elbow room to learn to keep the camera aimed in the direction of the statues so you might get that extra split second warning.

Furthermore, if you had explored it on normal before leaping straight in with standard grade dps you would have been more likely to come up with the strategy of sticking close to the boundary line between the segments of floor that get blasted by the statue. With statue numbered 123, I typically hang around the line that begins between 2 and 3 and runs next to the pillar where the hard mode stone orb appears. If you are at the edge and see the statue flash, then you usually have enough time to walk out of danger even if holding block.

These are entirely puggable, if you don't treat them on par with the mobs surrounding the flags at a keep or resource.

fred4

Cryptical wrote: »

Dude, you’re more of an example of someone that depends on their dps to pull them through than I was describing. You leaped straight into vet without having been through it at all before, and yet expected to have a clear to get a helm, but did it with mid level dps numbers. That's treating the dungeon pretty flippantly.

Believe what you want to believe. I did go straight into vet, because normal is pointless, but I did it with friends who knew the mechanics and were on TS.

As far as your damage, are you respecting the champ jump points? As in, you have heard that it rounds down to the nearest full percentage number. So 12% and 12.9% both give the exact same boost. Furthermore, you have noticed that the lower amounts of points you put into a star get a larger boost than when you spend more and more points, right? As in, the first two points you put into elfborn give you a full percent, but going from 51 to 53 only gives you 0.47%. So you have to cut yourself off before you spend more and more to get smaller and smaller boost. I don't go above 66 points in elfborn. I get more benefit putting points elsewhere than to keep shoveling them into elfborn, as an example.

That is the most ridiculous lecture in the context of this thread. Yes, I know the CP system. Yes, I know what jump points are. No, you can't seriously believe that disrespecting jump points might make or break a build.

Statue blasts... If you had gone through on normal you likely would have had enough of a safety margin to learn that the statues flash a split second before the big red aoe warning floods across the floor. So with that marginal allowance for errors you may have had the elbow room to learn to keep the camera aimed in the direction of the statues so you might get that extra split second warning.

We knew that. You're nitpicking. Do I need to spell everything out? For what it's worth, I think that particular aspect of the boss fight is terribly designed regardless.

Furthermore, if you had explored it on normal before leaping straight in with standard grade dps you would have been more likely to come up with the strategy of sticking close to the boundary line between the segments of floor that get blasted by the statue. With statue numbered 123, I typically hang around the line that begins between 2 and 3 and runs next to the pillar where the hard mode stone orb appears. If you are at the edge and see the statue flash, then you usually have enough time to walk out of danger even if holding block.

I'll give you that. It's interesting advice. Is that marked on the floor? We tried standing close to the statues, so you have them at the edge of your view, and less distance to cover. Basically though, when soneone was being Zaan'd with the tank intervening, and the statues fired then, this was when people died.

Cryptical

fred4 wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Dude, you’re more of an example of someone that depends on their dps to pull them through than I was describing. You leaped straight into vet without having been through it at all before, and yet expected to have a clear to get a helm, but did it with mid level dps numbers. That's treating the dungeon pretty flippantly.

Believe what you want to believe. I did go straight into vet, because normal is pointless, but I did it with friends who knew the mechanics and were on TS.

As far as your damage, are you respecting the champ jump points? As in, you have heard that it rounds down to the nearest full percentage number. So 12% and 12.9% both give the exact same boost. Furthermore, you have noticed that the lower amounts of points you put into a star get a larger boost than when you spend more and more points, right? As in, the first two points you put into elfborn give you a full percent, but going from 51 to 53 only gives you 0.47%. So you have to cut yourself off before you spend more and more to get smaller and smaller boost. I don't go above 66 points in elfborn. I get more benefit putting points elsewhere than to keep shoveling them into elfborn, as an example.

That is the most ridiculous lecture in the context of this thread. Yes, I know the CP system. Yes, I know what jump points are. No, you can't seriously believe that disrespecting jump points might make or break a build.

Statue blasts... If you had gone through on normal you likely would have had enough of a safety margin to learn that the statues flash a split second before the big red aoe warning floods across the floor. So with that marginal allowance for errors you may have had the elbow room to learn to keep the camera aimed in the direction of the statues so you might get that extra split second warning.

We knew that. You're nitpicking. Do I need to spell everything out? For what it's worth, I think that particular aspect of the boss fight is terribly designed regardless.

Furthermore, if you had explored it on normal before leaping straight in with standard grade dps you would have been more likely to come up with the strategy of sticking close to the boundary line between the segments of floor that get blasted by the statue. With statue numbered 123, I typically hang around the line that begins between 2 and 3 and runs next to the pillar where the hard mode stone orb appears. If you are at the edge and see the statue flash, then you usually have enough time to walk out of danger even if holding block.

I'll give you that. It's interesting advice. Is that marked on the floor? We tried standing close to the statues, so you have them at the edge of your view, and less distance to cover. Basically though, when soneone was being Zaan'd with the tank intervening, and the statues fired then, this was when people died.

fred4 wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Dude, you’re more of an example of someone that depends on their dps to pull them through than I was describing. You leaped straight into vet without having been through it at all before, and yet expected to have a clear to get a helm, but did it with mid level dps numbers. That's treating the dungeon pretty flippantly.

Believe what you want to believe. I did go straight into vet, because normal is pointless, but I did it with friends who knew the mechanics and were on TS.

As far as your damage, are you respecting the champ jump points? As in, you have heard that it rounds down to the nearest full percentage number. So 12% and 12.9% both give the exact same boost. Furthermore, you have noticed that the lower amounts of points you put into a star get a larger boost than when you spend more and more points, right? As in, the first two points you put into elfborn give you a full percent, but going from 51 to 53 only gives you 0.47%. So you have to cut yourself off before you spend more and more to get smaller and smaller boost. I don't go above 66 points in elfborn. I get more benefit putting points elsewhere than to keep shoveling them into elfborn, as an example.

That is the most ridiculous lecture in the context of this thread. Yes, I know the CP system. Yes, I know what jump points are. No, you can't seriously believe that disrespecting jump points might make or break a build.

Statue blasts... If you had gone through on normal you likely would have had enough of a safety margin to learn that the statues flash a split second before the big red aoe warning floods across the floor. So with that marginal allowance for errors you may have had the elbow room to learn to keep the camera aimed in the direction of the statues so you might get that extra split second warning.

We knew that. You're nitpicking. Do I need to spell everything out? For what it's worth, I think that particular aspect of the boss fight is terribly designed regardless.

Furthermore, if you had explored it on normal before leaping straight in with standard grade dps you would have been more likely to come up with the strategy of sticking close to the boundary line between the segments of floor that get blasted by the statue. With statue numbered 123, I typically hang around the line that begins between 2 and 3 and runs next to the pillar where the hard mode stone orb appears. If you are at the edge and see the statue flash, then you usually have enough time to walk out of danger even if holding block.

I'll give you that. It's interesting advice. Is that marked on the floor? We tried standing close to the statues, so you have them at the edge of your view, and less distance to cover. Basically though, when soneone was being Zaan'd with the tank intervening, and the statues fired then, this was when people died.

Clearly normal isn't pointless, if you aren't able of crossing the threshold into vet on that dungeon. And clearly the mechanics weren't known since you say that you realized during the struggle that the ice sims appeared on a schedule. And I have no idea why your magblade isn't performing, but it seems most people don't do math very much so I tossed out the math as something to look at. And that it's a two-stage warning before the statue poison hits also seemed like it would help you since you said you were having trouble getting out of the red. The old saying is true, no good deed goes unpunished. Since you so obviously don't need any assistance that might seem like nitpicking, I'll hold on to my multiple Zaan helms and you can sit and fester in your pit of salt with zero Zaan helms.

Edit: Oh, if you want to find the line between floor segments, go through on normal and do the work yourself. Wash off the salt.

fred4

Cryptical wrote: »

And so many people kill themselves by leaping straight in. Why do they do that? Because with high dps pressure almost any mechanic can be ignored. Zaan can be a 4 minute burn, skipping lots of those fire mechanics and severely limiting the statue blasts and such. Dps burn can push through the giant matriarch with little attention to the piling up nereids.

I once thought that merely creating a painful disincentive to high dps would nudge people into being more than an automaton running a macro on their fingers, staring at their resource bar. I was wrong. A mechanic needs to be introduced that cannot be burned past. People won’t look for a different method unless they have no choice. I’ve a few ideas, but that’s for another thread because it’s the exact opposite of this one - they would make a dungeon even less likely to be tossed flippantly into the ‘completed’ pile.

Look, I know what you're driving at. I hate the whole DPS rotation thing. I was asked to burn the Planar Inhibitor boss once, and the group did it without me even copping on to exactly what they meant, namely ignoring portals. I was asked to DPS from just outside the arena in Tempest Island, once, and I hated it. It's so immersion breaking, and sapping the fun out of it, when you don't play fights as they were intended.

On the other hand I also agree with @Carbonised when he talks about the circus mechanics of the dungeons. That is so aptly put, and I wish it wasn't so. One of the great strengths of the combat, to me, is how NPCs operate with the same skills as players. The rules, the classes and the armor set choices are huge and complex, but at the base level there is a consistency to it. That often goes out the window, when it comes to dungeons and boss fights. ZOS think it's their job to dream up new mechanics that are unique to a dungeon, that that's what keeps the game fresh and fun. I disagree. I wish they would work within established rules.

When I played the original Crysis, years ago, it seemed to me that the AI made the NPCs far more unpredictable than the ones in ESO. It was renowned for making the Korean soldiers employ life-like search tactics when they had briefly spotted you, for example. Now that could be fond memories, but I think a less predictable AI would make for more dynamic fights where you don't go to your predetermined position and DPS something down. The way people create vMA high scores, because they know where everything spawns, is something I find really disappointing about the game. People become predictable, because the game is so predictable.

ZOS solution for occupying players who have become really good is to create mechanics that require very tight execution tolerances. If you don't quickly plug that geyser, or you aren't really accurate about where you're standing in the final boss fight, you wipe. There is something brittle about that, like shields. Either you sail through, and it's boring, or you fail miserably. I wonder whether everyone has trouble in the same fights.

fred4

Cryptical wrote: »

Clearly normal isn't pointless, if you aren't able of crossing the threshold into vet on that dungeon. And clearly the mechanics weren't known since you say that you realized during the struggle that the ice sims appeared on a schedule.

Well, my friends didn't know all of them, it turns out.

I have played ESO for almost 3 years now. I came from Skyrim, and I have stuck with ESO because an MMO is so much more challenging. On the other hand, when it comes to PvE, there is at least a tiny bit of the adventurer left in me. The person who played Skyrim for the stories, who quested in ESO, who explores, who gawks at the scenery, who wishes that the game was actually a tiny bit like the cinematic trailers with which this - and every other game - is advertised. This is why I go into dungeons unprepared. It's for the immersion. This is why I would prefer that there were no special dungeon mechanics. In the absence of that, NPCs explaining the mechanics as part of the story is not a bad solution. However having to do research on YouTube is where I draw the line.

You're going to repeat I should play the dungeon on normal. I don't know. Being somewhat challenged is also part of the fun. A story without that challenge is a story that has no stakes. I agree with every other person who has said normal is too easy. From my perspective as a CP720 player, normal could do with being lifted to where it is not that much easier than vet. The things that hurt in vet have to hurt in normal. I had this problem with normal Maelstrom. I learnt nothing. I learnt that spinning blades on the floor did literally nothing, because probably the health regen of my Nord, who used drinks, was already enough to cover the damage. Since some things in this game are merely visual effects - think about the end of a dolmen fight, for example - I automatically categorise lots of things in that way on normal. I don't even notice them.

profundidob16_ESO

running normal is anything but useless. Please don't see it as humiliating experience beneath your skills. I encourage you to consciously and deliberately lower your dps to 5-10k (equip terrible or no gear) when going into new dungeons so that you cannot trivialize the intended mechanics. I assure you you will learn alot and worst to worst if you can't/won't get the mechanics right to pull it off you can still take the shortcut by equipping your best gear and skip all mechanics.

On a daily basis I guide pugs of completely oblivious random group finder players through the mechanics on both vet and normal and explain all tactics and mechanics to them in full detail. Since it takes wiping and wiping a DLC dungeon can take up half of a evening. t you should see some of their responses when they finally see the light and get it...

For instance I remember 1 particular case where the random finder put me into VET WGT and I taught 2 desperate "5K dps" players how to rotate the pinion and lure the inhibitor to the max opposite furthest distance constantly through all 4 phases (not just blue phase). Once the finally -after many wipes- got it didn't matter they had only 5K dps in Vet or that the fight took long. They just perfectly ping ponged the boss at will and toyed with it till it died. Their responses went from "I can't believe no one ever explained me this before..." to "OMG it's sooo easy now".

But I also remember another case where pretty much the same scenario was happening but on Normal, not vet. The dps and healer were learning the mechanics, wipe after wipe as I patiently guided them into learning and practising them. We were finally getting close to victory (wipe at 5% boss health) but 1 of the dps was impatient and left. He got replaced by a "40k dps" endgame player. That player rushes in, tells everyone to ignore all tactics as he burns the inhibitor just in time after I've died as tank soaking up all dmge and right as he dies himself at the very end but the boss falls as well. And there I lay completely looking stupid with the new players completely mislead. They ended up not learning the mechanics or tactics and will wipe to no end once they attempt vet and then come complaint here that the DLC dungeons are too hard and you just need more dps...

So you see the game doesn't have a hard check to force you into learning the tactics on normal. It's a means by the devs to give you more options and chances to still complete it on normal (even through cheating sort of) but if you really want to learn the mechanics, hard cap your dps to be very low so you force yourself into learning the mechanics before you go VET and then


as I type this I tell you I spent last night in it's entirety by going into Cloudrest trial on PTS with only 5 people and trying to take down boss by boss and adapt to the mechanics. Before yesterday I had tanked that same trial +1 on normal and completed it 5 times with 1-12man groups. I assure you yesterday is when I finally learned all mechanics...on normal. by limiting the dps and healing completely we forced ourselves into having to do al tactics as perfect as possible and this will go a long way as soon as I start doing the instance on VET because as maintank and raid leader I want to be able to identify exactly where the problem is that is stopping us from progressing and that means being able to recognise all tactics and who is not doing which one correctly.

karekiz

Carbonised wrote: »

@Xuhora

They point is that ZOS has gated all the monster helmets, achievements, titles, personalities, costumes and skins behind this.

That point doesn't work. People immediantly want to get BIS and ignore alternatives because they read it online. The rest is all cosmetic and YES. If someone clears Speed run / HM / No death dragon bones they *deserve something* neat.

As for monster helms.

You don't have to jump yourself into VCoS for that monster helm. Run Fungal Grotto 1 vet and use that. Build up youself. Then eventually get the better version. If you feel you aren't ready for Vet DLC, you don't need to run BIS anyway to be perfectly honest. Base game vet dungeons can all be run in all modes <No death / Speed run / Hard mode> in 100% crafted gear.

I know I am going to use Slimecraw / Zaans on my sorc. Sometimes Zaans just can't be used and healers <Especially if you *pug* and have new healers learning vet content> won't just spam combat prayers on you 100%, but both of those have a nice 2nd effect and have spell crit on them. They are both totally useable, and one you just need to run Wayrest to get.

Merlin13KAGL

Cryptical wrote: »

And so many people kill themselves by leaping straight in. Why do they do that? Because with high dps pressure almost any mechanic can be ignored. Zaan can be a 4 minute burn, skipping lots of those fire mechanics and severely limiting the statue blasts and such. Dps burn can push through the giant matriarch with little attention to the piling up nereids.

I once thought that merely creating a painful disincentive to high dps would nudge people into being more than an automaton running a macro on their fingers, staring at their resource bar. I was wrong. A mechanic needs to be introduced that cannot be burned past. People won’t look for a different method unless they have no choice. I’ve a few ideas, but that’s for another thread because it’s the exact opposite of this one - they would make a dungeon even less likely to be tossed flippantly into the ‘completed’ pile.

@Cryptical Honestly, for tor the initial challenge.

When new content comes out, it's a puzzle as well as a tank/heals/dps check. It's enjoyable for some (myself included) to try to figure it out, to figure out how the Devs intended for you to run it, sometimes how to do it a slightly modified way (not exploitive, just different from the original creative vision).

If you understand certain things beyond the level of most guides, you can adapt to less than perfect situations much more easily. This goes for the current content as well as other content. You become able to notice things you wouldn't before, and you can pass that information on.

If new content truly intrigues me, I'll get a group together to try to tackle it blind. Heck, I've threatened to drop group if someone mentioned using a guide on day one.

There are awesome guides out there from numerous content creators, but sometimes getting your collective asses handed to you and talking out the strategy with your group can be its own reward.

Someone has to figure it out first, right? Or, there would be no guides to be had.

I think the voiceover in norm that is not present in Vet is exactly the right way to approach it - it provides for both options. It did, however, throw me off first time I heard it, because my group and I had jumped straight into vet for the reasons stated above.

Cage_Lizardman

I've pugged all vet dlc's plenty of times, I did two as random vets today, vWGT and vSP. vWGT had a fake cp500 tank with no taunt but the rest of us were max cp so it worked with some dying. With some of them you really need a good group though, you're more likely to get that when it's the daily pledge.

I've carried all kinds through vCoS. And despite many attempts I have learned that I can't carry anyone past the menagerie in vFL.

DamenAJ

I want the beautiful dye from doing the vet falkreath and vet bloodroot forge. I got bloodroot, tough but... got it.

I've now spent 6-8 hours on falkreath last boss, getting him down to 15% several times, but dying, dying, someone leaves, gets switched, dying, dying, dying, someone leaves, switched out, rinse and repeat for 3-4 hours. No win.

I'm really. Really. Really. Stressed and hateful by the end.

Even with people with decent CP. Something always happens..... It's BS. I hate it, so much. I just want the stupid dye.

And no, I don't have friends to do it with, I've asked in guild, but I am a socially awkward wreck, and I just... Totally unreasonable how hard it is.

ATomiX96

jesus.... not everything is supposed to be puggable and on normal you can still pug it. Get some friends or guildmates if you want to do "harder" (still quite fair difficulty in my eyes) content.

exiars10

I still can't beat Scalecaller Peak on normal! I gave up. It's too difficult for PUGs . Tried some ~10x with both my Warden tank and NB DD, and only once, I repeat only once my group managed to get to gargoyle boss and failed misarable as DDs didn't kill laser balls no matter how many times I explained to kill them.

Every other time group fail at first dual troll bosses, heck I regularly see players already dying from Skeevers' poisons before it. That group dungeon is one big BS.

Let it compare to Ruins of Mazzatun which became only DLC dungeon I like - RoM is a cake walk on normal if group listen and is semi compentent. Impossible on Scalecaller Peak.

coplannb16_ESO

exiars10 wrote: »

I still can't beat Scalecaller Peak on normal! I gave up. It's too difficult for PUGs . Tried some ~10x with both my Warden tank and NB DD, and only once, I repeat only once my group managed to get to gargoyle boss and failed misarable as DDs didn't kill laser balls no matter how many times I explained to kill them.

Every other time group fail at first dual troll bosses, heck I regularly see players already dying from Skeevers' poisons before it. That group dungeon is one big BS.

Let it compare to Ruins of Mazzatun which became only DLC dungeon I like - RoM is a cake walk on normal if group listen and is semi compentent. Impossible on Scalecaller Peak.

I know of people who solo nSP. I myself soloed the ogres but didnt have a) the time and b) the mood to solo everything because it takes to long (some easy tank gear on my magDK-DD).
I can duo the thing very easily with my brother though (tank/healer warden combo). it is easy if you know what you are doing.