Last 6 dlc dungeons too difficult, not puggable

josiahva

Sergykid wrote: »

those who answer "don't pug" just come here to troll.
Nobody wants to pug, we just want to join a random dungeon for the daily reward. And there isn't always there in the guild waiting for you to log in so you can ask them to come. But then the RNG strikes you with a difficult dungeon from which you'd rather join another dungeon on another character until the 15 minutes pass.

banning some dungeons from "random" would be nice, since they're so many now

No, you don't understand. We are being serious. I myself have no trouble pugging vet DLC dungeons...easy enough to complete with a bit of patience...but for those that run into issues...seriously, dont pug them. I know you want your random rewards, I understand that...but you are telling me that between 5 different guilds and who knows how many friends on your friend list you cant find 3 other people to queue for a random? or even 2? IN A POOL OF 1000+ players readily available to you? Stop being lazy and ask for some people to run a random with. Every day I queue up for a random dungeon(or specifically queue for vet DLC dungeons) and every day, I am able to complete them with pugs(except vet Falkreath, and I assume eventually that will change as people learn last boss mechanics better). If you are constantly failing in pugs in vet DLC dungeons...do the only thing you can do if you insist on using dungeon finder...get better so you can carry more dead-weight, because it will happen....other people being bad is only a chance to hone your own skills to make up for it. Other people not relighting the braziers in vCOS, take on the responsibility yourself. The tank not plugging the volcanoes in vBF? Make a tank and do it yourself. The other DPS not doing enough damage against the tree minder and totem in vROM? Guess its time to step up your DPS game and hit 40k DPS on your own...Every time you fail, its an opportunity to find a way to improve. At this point, almost every boss fight in vet DLC dungeons I find myself quickly tailoring my slotted skills to the fight before it begins, whatever skills allow to better survive and DPS a given boss....my skill bar often changes 3 or 4 times during a dungeon...does yours?

Cryptical

Tasmin wrote: »

I have been left cold by the last 6 dungeon dlcs because I think them too hard to be fun in vet, and only do-able in established groups with guildies unless you luck into an incredible PUG - and how often does that happen?

Now, I quite like Imperial Prison and don't think it its sister dungeon White Gold Tower is unfair but neither are favourites. But they are not the offending dungeons to my mind. The ones I have never enjoyed are The Hist dungeons, Ruins of Mazzarum and Cradle of Shadows. These are murderous in pugs and so very rarely successful via LFG. You can add to this list the DLC which followed, the Horns of the Reach dungeons Falkreath Hold and BloodRoot Forge. Then, just to make sure that Zenimax estranged hitherto happy dungeon goers like myself, they released the Dragon Bones dungeons, Scalecaller Peak and Fang Lair.

Long time guildies of mine will remember I used to live in dungeons during my online playtime but now I very rarely do them, and am wary or using the LFG tool for fear of getting a doomed-from-the start later-dlc run or worse, a "blue portal of death" run (where usually one or two lowbie DDs have come up against hard bosses, the group has split and rather than admit defeat you get sucked into their train crash via LFG, as a replacement for the players who rightly fled).

Now of course people will say that they have occasionally got lucky with PUGs via LFG but that's exceptionally rare in my experience.

I think the last 6 dungeons appeal only to a minority of players, almost entirely already guildies or friends and that the expectation of failure in a pug undermines the spontaneity one used to enjoy in signing up for vet dungeon run via lfg. We can of course arrange guild runs when the right ppl are online to make a group viable, but that's not the point. I miss most, whenhaving say, only an hour or so playtime available, being able to sign up to any dungeon on my healer or tank via lfg and at least feel we had a decent crack at completing a dungeon. I no longer do and have effectively withdrawn from dungeon life unless ppl need me to pitch in in our guild..

And that's a real shame.

I propose that there should be three tiers of difficulty for the 6 dlc dungeons: an elite mode, for want of a better term (suggestions?) to please those people who meet in established groups to complete the 6 vet dungeons mentioned above. This would be similar in difficulty to the current vet default, where PUGs will rarely succeed. The default vet mode would then be pitched somewhere between that and normal hence achievable with pugs, but somewhat challenging still. Normals would remain as they are. In other words, the highest tier of difficulty would be the current vet HMs, which would have to be opted into via lfg, but the default difficulty for dlc vets would be lower and Puggable, which, in the main, they currently are not.

Thoughts?

They are easily Puggable. I pugged them both on normal on day one within a couple hours. I pugged them on vet for my only clears, one of which was close to a no death.

Maybe its you.

karekiz

Difficulty of DLC varies, but they are "puggable". It is just player ability varies widely in this game, more than other games I have played.

If you want a better experience shout around in town for a max CP group. It is still technically a pug.

fred4

FloppyTouch wrote: »

I have used the group finder for all dungeon clears for 2 years now and rarely been in groups that can't clear them.

Honestly that either speaks to your incredible prowess in carrying a group, or it's a flat out lie.

Waffennacht

Took me two days to find a PuG capable of doing vet scalecaller.

I also had to be the tank so I could guarantee most mechanics to be done correctly.

I feel if you want your best chance of completing a vet dlc dungeon, you should be the tank, most of the important mechanics are tank based.

Also allows you to roll through dps people if you have to...

They are difficult, but take the reins.

On scalecaller, I would on my mic call out mechanics, it happened outta instinct, but later my group told me how much it actually helped. By the end, people were comfortable enough to call out anything making it way easier.

starkerealm

Vahrokh wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

Don't PUG...
look for a guild that is doing that content, that's always been the way of things

I've switched close to 20 "self proclaimed 4 men" guilds in one year.

Yes, most of them ran 4 men dungeons, no, none of them ran DLC dungeons. People just won't want to do them.

Legitimately, it depends on your guild and what they're doing. Not every dungeon guild is created equal. Some do chase DLC dungeons... others, not so much.

fred4

DarkScatha wrote: »

learn mechanics, use mic to coordinate boss fights, maybe switch some skills if needed.

There is no built-in voice chat on PC. Discord and TS are possible with guilds, but never happen with PUGS.

Don't be that stupid DD who can only do DPS and is surprised if he dies standing in red.

That is condescending and simplistic. Give yourself some credit for your PvE aptitude and experience.

As a mainly PvPer, my problem is the incredible inconsistency in PvE difficulty. In vFang Lair, I can sleepwalk through everything but two of the boss fights, but those two fights are incredibly hard. Those fights are very frustrating when the group can't part-carry me, whereas the rest just bores me to tears. This game has balancing issues.

fred4

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

This doesn't just apply to the DLC's though. It's game wide.

nTrials, nFourMan, nAnything, really. Once you're past a certain point in your build, they require zero mechanics and teach nothing about what's to come when you click over to Vet.

There is absolutely no gradual transition of any kind anywhere in this game. Everything either nips at your heels or wrecks you in 5 seconds.

This! So much this!

Waffennacht

Fyi: in every dlc dungeon, the precursor fights show you the mechanics in the upcoming boss fight.

I.e. in scale caller, your first mob shows you what the non-moving ogre does, second mob shows you mobile ogre abilities, third mob shows you the two ogres combined.

They are easy mobs, which leads most players to just pwn them without watching what they do. It's actually a teaching method.

I actually only picked up on it by trying to solo some dlc dungeons

fred4

Waffennacht wrote: »

Fyi: in every dlc dungeon, the precursor fights show you the mechanics in the upcoming boss fight.

I.e. in scale caller, your first mob shows you what the non-moving ogre does, second mob shows you mobile ogre abilities, third mob shows you the two ogres combined.

They are easy mobs, which leads most players to just pwn them without watching what they do. It's actually a teaching method.

I actually only picked up on it by trying to solo some dlc dungeons

You know the old movie-making maxim: Show, don't tell? ZOS are doing that on paper, then, but the difficulty gaps are so badly judged that, like you say, you never even realise you are being shown something.

It was the same with Mazzatun. You have to run through a corridor and pick up some spice, which gets washed off when you stand in one of those water geysers. It's a mere nuisance when that happens first. More like "WTF? Oh I'm glad that's gone, but I have no idea what just happened." It doesn't seriously impact the group and above all, it doesn't make any sense. I partly blame poor artistic choices for the lack of success in teaching mechanics. An obvious example is vMA, where ZOS eventually added sub-titles to the spider level to tell you what to do. I think they improved on that in vSP, with NPCs talking you through it.

Still, some of the artistic choices drive me nuts. The final fight in Mazzatun, where you get disabled and your group mates have to point out a statue to you makes no sense whatsoever to me. Furthermore it is another example where, on normal mode, you just go "WTF", and the group survives anyway. The skill bar going all "taunt" just looks buggy, so it didn't even occur to me that this was a mechanic, at first. I thought it was a malfunctioning addon.

This is totally water under bridge by now, but a monsters strongest 1-shot attack being their shout is another thing that just annoyed the crap out of me. I'm talking about the vMA poison level, of course. So what if my toon goes deaf? She can still fight! It doesn't make any sense.

firedrgn

Cradle of shadows and blood root where both a hoot when i pugged them. Got the helms . Have not had time to pugg the others.

D0PAMINE

@Tasmin If you're PC NA hit me up @D0PAMINE I will help you get to where you need to be. We can run whatever content you want.

D0PAMINE

Carbonised wrote: »

Funny thing is, I specifically recall them nerfing vWGT and vICP several times through the years, since their "statistics shows that people would often skip these dungeons as daily pledges, and the numbers showed that very few people actually finished these dungeons".

Fine and dandy, and then they friggin' go and add 6 more dungeons that make WGT and ICP look like a Sunday stroll in the park. And apparently we can look forward to 4 more of these every year, with no new dungeons added in in the usual veteran dungeon difficulty, or around the ICP/WGT ones.

What the heck? It's like one hand doesn't even know what the other one is doing. Why nerf IC dungeons due to numbers, when I can bet you those same numbers show even less people regularly doing and finishing Hist dungeons, Reach dungeons and Bones dungeons. Let alone HM.

I mean, I was able to finish vCOS drunk. Like really really drunk, as in 14 bottles in drunk. Of course the other 3 had to carry me and do extra work, so I focused on buffs and healing and we got it done just fine (or so I think, but I got the helm so thats my best guess). These dungeons can be intimidating, but people do eventually get them done, maybe not that night, but it will happen.

munster1404

ccfeeling wrote: »

U may change your mind after u spent over 2 hours to pass vwgt a few times

I was stuck in Direfrost Keep for >2hrs because people keep neglecting to CC break immediately at the last boss. And as a tank I had to constantly rezz the DPS and fake Healer. We went through 3 replacements before securing enough damage to out DPS Drodda's self heal.

coplannb16_ESO

actually I like the new dlc dungeons. they have an interesting story, nice assets and interesting mechanics. its also a help that there are NPCs like Jorvuld who will give some basic advice like to keep those 2 ogres away from each other. If every puger would at least listen to that advice and stopped standing in stupid, now that would help.

a problem in my book is that especially BRF and SP require a really good tank who can quickly spot lava/water geysirs/ poison eruptions and plug them or shield your ally from Zaan. The amount of deaths followed by "sorry I didnt see that geysir" is demotivating.

funny thing is, you can even solo nSP if you know what you are doing, but vet... no way. there were weeks where I was trying to finish vSP and never even had a group forming. or we had a group, but the 200 CP tank couldnt do it and droped out. then we stood there for 2 hours waiting for a new tank...

maybe ZoS should think about dungeons that do not require the holy trinity, just 4 people that know what they are doing. I mean its not that fun as a tank either to know that 1 second delay in plugging a geysir can wipe the group.

however, when I did SP for the first time I did not have a clue myself (ofc I read the guides in front, but reading and understanding/doing are two different things). I had a cool group however where the leader would explain each boss after I told them I was new here. We managed to finish it with just a few wipes on the ogres and on the nereids/giant-boss. Beat Zaan in one go. So my first run was also one of my best.

Since then I usually run normal (to not waste my time in GF) and am often in the situation that everyone else has no clue so I explain and guide people through the thing. Most of the time it works (takes longer though of course) and everyone is very grateful and happy in the end. So that is nice. Like returning the favour to others that I luckily got on my first run.

munster1404

coplannb16_ESO wrote: »

actually I like the new dlc dungeons. they have an interesting story, nice assets and interesting mechanics. its also a help that there are NPCs like Jorvuld who will give some basic advice like to keep those 2 ogres away from each other. If every puger would at least listen to that advice and stopped standing in stupid, now that would help.

a problem in my book is that especially BRF and SP require a really good tank who can quickly spot lava/water geysirs/ poison eruptions and plug them or shield your ally from Zaan. The amount of deaths followed by "sorry I didnt see that geysir" is demotivating.

funny thing is, you can even solo nSP if you know what you are doing, but vet... no way. there were weeks where I was trying to finish vSP and never even had a group forming. or we had a group, but the 200 CP tank couldnt do it and droped out. then we stood there for 2 hours waiting for a new tank...

maybe ZoS should think about dungeons that do not require the holy trinity, just 4 people that know what they are doing. I mean its not that fun as a tank either to know that 1 second delay in plugging a geysir can wipe the group.

however, when I did SP for the first time I did not have a clue myself (ofc I read the guides in front, but reading and understanding/doing are two different things). I had a cool group however where the leader would explain each boss after I told them I was new here. We managed to finish it with just a few wipes on the ogres and on the nereids/giant-boss. Beat Zaan in one go. So my first run was also one of my best.

Since then I usually run normal (to not waste my time in GF) and am often in the situation that everyone else has no clue so I explain and guide people through the thing. Most of the time it works (takes longer though of course) and everyone is very grateful and happy in the end. So that is nice. Like returning the favour to others that I luckily got on my first run.

Do away with the Trinity? Erm, just no? Maybe we should encourage more players to take up tanking instead. Rework/improve resource sustain for tanks.

mocap

vWGT is "PUGable" if you manage to kill Planar Inhibitor, rest of the dungeon is easy.

A tip: if you need just a monster helm from vet DLC dungeon, you can wait and buy it from gold vendor in Ciro. Be sure to check her every weekend.

Pixel_Zealot

No, the game is roll-over-stupid easy already.

Please don't make them ruin this too.

Carbonised

@Waffennacht and others

On PC there is no voice chat, unless you plug in to Discord or Teamspeak, which you normally only do for a guild and not a random PUG.

1 of every 5 people you meet in a PUG on PC-EU is a Russian who doesn't understand a word English. You'd be lucky to even get a reply from him when you ask if he knows the mechanics, and if you do get one, it's in Cyrillic.

1 of the other 5 is an impatient, aggressive noob who engages bosses prematurely despite you trying to explain the mechanics via text chat.

The 3rd of the 5 is a low CP noob with poor knowledge of dungeon mechanics, who looks to get carried through it all even with his abysmal DPS.

On a good day, the 4th person out of 5 might actually be good.

DLC dungeons, with their circus mechanics and 1 shots, makes it so that even 1 noob is a liability. If someone doesn't grab pinion, if someone doesn't close portals, it's RIP.

Even people high in CP ignore totems on Mazzatun and just keep dpsing the boss, or run around in circles like headless chicken. Do you think anyone will even mark the right statue for you? No. You tell people to kill totems immediately and prioritize them, yet group keeps ignoring them, or notice them when they're half empty of resources.
Do you think anyone even grabs the spice either at Xal-Nur, and clean it? Or run Chudan to the right place to get rid of the lightning caster?

People don't interrupt Dranos Velandor, and it's RIP for the tank. People die in the Velidreth maze constantly, and even if you do it right, you're back at Velidreth with 2 people dead and have to instantly try and ress while dealing with her anti-ressing CC and a ton of adds.

People keep DPSing Caillaoife when she calls her forest, and ignore adds. People ignore Stone Atros at Stoneheart, and let them enrage. They don't run the 3 minibosses' essences to the piedestals in order to summon Cernunnon, don't cleanse corpses at Bjarfrud, and Domihaus will just plain own anyone who isn't completely aware of the mechanics.

And Scalecaller and Fang Lair are even more full of one shots and circus hoop mechanics than any other of the earlier DLC dungeons.

No amount of good tanking will really get any PUG group through all of that.

fred4

mocap wrote: »

A tip: if you need just a monster helm from vet DLC dungeon, you can wait and buy it from gold vendor in Ciro. Be sure to check her every weekend.

Don't hold your breath. I waited 6 months for Troll King. By that time I had (a) farmed it anyway and (b) it wasn't even relevant to my build anymore.

Tasmin

Pixel_Zealot wrote: »

No, the game is roll-over-stupid easy already.

Please don't make them ruin this too.

My proposal would take nothing away. On the contrary, I propose an additional tier of difficulty, a middle way. In this vision, the current vet Hm would remain as it is, but be the opt-in hard mode for the tier of players who like that sort of thing. Normal would remain as it is too. But a new tier of difficulty would be introduced to help cater for arguably the majority , who want a challenge, but one likely do be do-able in most PUGs.

fossoyer

No need to go in dlc, just try tempest island in vet "hm" or Direfrost with pug.
My record, as tank, is 5 differents team to finish tempest and final boss.

My last tempest island's pledge 2-3 days ago, as dd, I finish boss alone, (50% of life to finish, thx sorcerer shield), pug where 500-800 cp, even tank was dead and too many whirlwind to rez.

It seems that too many nerf in pledge make people ignore strat and rush.

Xuhora

maaay i ask you the simple question: why?

I mean you explained what current state of DLC PUGGing is, and while i dont agree fully with you, i indeed had several PUGs which failed terribly at the DLC Vet Dungeons.

But i remember as WGT and ICP came out, a vast minority of the playerbase could do them in Vet HM while the rest has bitten their theeth out and trying and failing over and over.
Now theese two can be done by 95% of the PUG-Groups. While Mazzatun and Cradle allready beeing nerfed, so even more PUGs can get them done.

Why do we allways want to have everything served on a silverplate. I mean whats the point on switching the Checks on the Boxes and then run through the new middle hard content and succeed the first time and then never even trying on the Vet-Content?
People who only want it done, can get it done in normal. People who want the challenge, titles and skins can go and aim for Vet with HM after 2 months of wiping. And they will likely do that, because they love the feeling uf success when they finally get it done.

I just dont see the point in your proposed middle hard content. Actually as i write that, the only point in doing that is, that the chance of getting a DLC Vet Dungeon in random daily would decrease and thus increase the speed of getting the random daily done. Which would be a reason i have to state my clear "no" to because its just lazy

OutLaw_Nynx

Gythral wrote: »

Don't PUG...
look for a guild that is doing that content, that's always been the way of things

Carbonised

@Xuhora

They point is that ZOS has gated all the monster helmets, achievements, titles, personalities, costumes and skins behind this.

Sure, if you're in a great guild with teammates you can get it done with little sweat. For everyone else, just too bad and "git gud". Didn't my subscription money pay for this as much as yours? We're talking about 2 of the 4 yearly updates to the game here.

People keep mention "just run normal" well all that stuff doesn't drop in normal, and why would I run on normal when it is much too easy and gives you no real experience that translates to vet. All those 1-shots that you have to perfectly circumvent on vet aren't 1-shots on normal, thus you can just ignore them on normal and heal up. Again, how is this supposed to teach anyone about the mechanics?

The barrier between normal and vet is simply much too steep. And the easy fix would be to have a third medium difficulty, that still made you able to obtain the helmets and various other cosmetics, while keeping the hardcore mode for those who want to play Dark Souls. For all I care they can still keep all their unique titles to brag about if they like, but gating so much content behind a very steep barrier that also requires you to be in a group or guild of other very competent players is simply not fair to the majority of the players here.

mocap

fred4 wrote: »

I waited 6 months for Troll King. By that time I had (a) farmed it anyway and (b) it wasn't even relevant to my build anymore.

Troll King isn't DLC dungeon set. Blessed Crucible is easy dungeon even pug vet hm.

Xuhora

@Carbonised

Soooo you want a Tier that allows you to get the Items and Cosmetics with your Skill-lvl and you are pissed of by the jokingly said phrase "git-gud"?

At what point are we stoping this then? i mean surely there is a mastercrafter and guild leader (just an example) out there that has absolutly no intention in doing more than light attacks (which, by god is his right to do, because he is playing the game his way) but yeah it so happens that this guy also pays for this game and its content and his money is worth the same than your casual money and my darksouls git gud money. So then we would have to include Monsterset drops in normal to follow your argument, because we cant say to that mastercrafter guildleader "git gud mate or sodd off"

You see where this is leading? to a shoving everything into the players mouth for all kind of playstyles.

Does the mastercrafter guildleader need Monsterhelmets to farm and sell stuff? naahh he doesnt.
Does the casual player that doesnt want to be told git-gud need the monsterhelmets to casually get content done? naahh he doesnt
Doe the "darksouls" player need monsterhelmets to get every endcontent done? yes because he is min-maxing.

GreenhaloX

DarkScatha wrote: »

I know this sounds stupid but...

learn mechanics, use mic to coordinate boss fights, maybe switch some skills if needed.

If you know mechanics but others don't explain them to them...

I've finished dlc content on vet even with low cp players.

Don't be that stupid DD who can only do DPS and is surprised if he dies standing in red.

I agree, for something more meaningful as in real life and not really for a video game meant for entertainment. It's all good, though. Play your game, you all keyboard warriors. Ha ha

Astrid_V wrote: »

I will quote eso devs: "git gud".

Really..? If the ESO devs have said such, it would be quite unwarranted or unprofessional on their part.

“Git Gud”, an intentional misspelling of the phrase “get good,” is an expression used to heckle inexperienced players or newbies in online video games, similar to the use of the phrase “lurk more” on forums.

I can see immature gamers-type folks using it, but not "professional" employees of Zenimax or Bethesda.. come on, now..

Carbonised

@Xuhora

Christ, lose the hyperbolic argumentation already.

In a PUG, the limiting factor is not necessarily my skill level, there are 3 other people to take into account, and as I said in my post prior to that, it is virtually impossible to carry bad players through DLC dungeons on vet due to the amount of 1 shots and group mechanics.

YOU asked why people didn't just do normal, I gave you an answer. You then proceeded to go into an argumentation about these reasons, while also ridiculing the position me and others are arguing from.

sudaki_eso

gabriebe wrote: »

It would be a lot easier if there was an in-game voice system like they (presumably) have on console.

As a console player, it doesnt help because no one is using it. I am doing a lot of dungeons with pugs and not once did anybody made use of the in-game voice system, someone might have an open mic and you hear a baby crying somewhere, something like that, but thats it.
In one of my guilds we also communicate over an app and yesterday one guy was asking if we got dungeon guides because no one is explaining a thing and everybody is just rushing through - lack of communication is the problem.