Last 6 dlc dungeons too difficult, not puggable

Make2k15

Tasmin wrote: »

Now of course people will say that they have occasionally got lucky with PUGs via LFG but that's exceptionally rare in my experience.
...

Thoughts?

Well, I wouldn't say occasionally. I think I tend to finish most of the DLC runs I queue to (at least 2/3 of them) as DD. I've done Mazzatum/Craddle of Shadow/Falkreath Hold challenger achievements solely via LFG groups. Fang Lair/Scalecaller hms not yet been able to, but maybe it will change when they will start dropping motif pages will see.

Maybe it's hard to pug these if you play healer or tank I would imagine. Or maybe if u not yourself capable to carry a bit the low levels which are still allowed to queue on these DLC dungeon.

Acharnor

So agree! I have only completed most of those on normal and the newer DLC ones especially are a slog! I can say I completed them but have little to no interest of repeating. The scale of reward does not help either. For example you get a single transmute crystal for completing normal FG or any of the newer ones on normal. One I can solo and the other is requiring real coordination and group effort - but the same reward. Not worth the time or stress. I would like to run these newer ones more but the time to get through them and then start throwing in the wipes and it becomes a wasted effort. Rambling now - but agree!

Joshuagm1991

More difficult content is what ESO needs.

Thorstienn

They should just add a toggle to GF that removes/includes DLC dungeons.

Tasmin

Saint_Bud wrote: »

Search for a guild and run with the people from it. Problem fixed.

No it isn't. I can and do run with guildies and friends to finish content in all the dungeons, but that requires the right ppl to be online at the same time.

What I can't do, and what my post was about, is hop onto the game with an hour or two of gameplay to spare, and grab a joyful run in DLC dungeons via lfg - because the difficulty curve of these dungeons is so often prohibitively hard for pugs, in my experience, except where I have all-too-rarely lucked into a fab pug.

With an adjusted difficulty, specifically the introduction of a middle tier level of challenge, I think the good times could roll again for those of us who want dungeon runs pitched somewhere between normal and the current wtf difficulty we see in the recent dlc dungeons.

joaaocaampos

Tasmin wrote: »

I propose that there should be three tiers of difficulty for the 6 dlc dungeons.

NO, HELL NO!

In fact, this already exists!

• Normal
• Veteran
• Veteran Hardmode

BTW. More nerfs?

In my opinion, Zenimax should remove "Veteran Dungeon" from Dungeon Finder.

SickDuck

niawrathb16_ESO wrote: »

I think the latest DLC dungeons are the most fun I have had in a 4 man group in ages a nice challenge but doable .
As for the LFG tool in Summerset patch notes it says -
"The Following Dungeons have been adjusted to require CP300 in order to queue using the Activity Finder:
Veteran Bloodroot Forge
Veteran Cradle of Shadows
Veteran Falkreath Hold
Veteran Fang Lair
Veteran Imperial City Prison
Veteran Ruins of Mazzatun
Veteran Scalecaller Peak
Veteran White-Gold Tower "

Which should help bad luck you may have in finding players with not enough experience for the DLC dungeons. Although CP does not always correlate to ability it should help.

What this will mostly achieve is to increase queue times to... forever. Once you get in, the 300+ requirement is helpful but it still won’t solve the issue how people will transition from easy mode to hard mode. The gap is too big and there is not much motivation for experienced players to help newbies.

Tasmin

Make2k15 wrote: »

Maybe it's hard to pug these if you play healer or tank I would imagine.

Yes it is to be honest, because its hard to influence the outcome as much as you can if you are an uber DD. Tanks and healers, on the other hand are rather like referees in matches - you only notice them if they are bad

Make2k15

SickDuck wrote: »

niawrathb16_ESO wrote: »

I think the latest DLC dungeons are the most fun I have had in a 4 man group in ages a nice challenge but doable .
As for the LFG tool in Summerset patch notes it says -
"The Following Dungeons have been adjusted to require CP300 in order to queue using the Activity Finder:
Veteran Bloodroot Forge
Veteran Cradle of Shadows
Veteran Falkreath Hold
Veteran Fang Lair
Veteran Imperial City Prison
Veteran Ruins of Mazzatun
Veteran Scalecaller Peak
Veteran White-Gold Tower "

Which should help bad luck you may have in finding players with not enough experience for the DLC dungeons. Although CP does not always correlate to ability it should help.

What this will mostly achieve is to increase queue times to... forever. Once you get in, the 300+ requirement is helpful but it still won’t solve the issue how people will transition from easy mode to hard mode. The gap is too big and there is not much motivation for experienced players to help newbies.

It won't increase queue times much IMO. You will also need to take into account that higher level players will queue then more cus they know that the groups will be better most of the time. It's a good chance. If you add new difficulty though then you need to add new rewards (achievements, new gear or better chance to get better gear) to the highest difficulty too so that people will play that.

IMO the best way to add new dungeon difficulty mode would be to make the highest elite difficulty a bit harder than veteran is atm.. Lower the veteran difficulty a bit and keep the normal difficulty the same.

Kikke

the later the DLC dungeon, the easier the non hardmode has become.

Peekachu99

For the record most “Dungeon/ Trials” guilds I’ve been in across both platforms are barely more competent than the average pug. There are the core raiders at the top, and they only play with each other, doing very little to enhance the skill-spectrum of players filling their guilds—for all the reasons people have brought up they don’t like pugging.

That elistism doesn’t go away just because you join a guild, and it’s especially bad in this game. Pugging content through AF or zone is far less of a headache than guilds and their drama.

POps75p

Tasmin wrote: »

I have been left cold by the last 6 dungeon dlcs because I think them too hard to be fun in vet, and only do-able in established groups with guildies unless you luck into an incredible PUG - and how often does that happen?

Now, I quite like Imperial Prison and don't think it its sister dungeon White Gold Tower is unfair but neither are favourites. But they are not the offending dungeons to my mind. The ones I have never enjoyed are The Hist dungeons, Ruins of Mazzarum and Cradle of Shadows. These are murderous in pugs and so very rarely successful via LFG. You can add to this list the DLC which followed, the Horns of the Reach dungeons Falkreath Hold and BloodRoot Forge. Then, just to make sure that Zenimax estranged hitherto happy dungeon goers like myself, they released the Dragon Bones dungeons, Scalecaller Peak and Fang Lair.

Long time guildies of mine will remember I used to live in dungeons during my online playtime but now I very rarely do them, and am wary or using the LFG tool for fear of getting a doomed-from-the start later-dlc run or worse, a "blue portal of death" run (where usually one or two lowbie DDs have come up against hard bosses, the group has split and rather than admit defeat you get sucked into their train crash via LFG, as a replacement for the players who rightly fled).

Now of course people will say that they have occasionally got lucky with PUGs via LFG but that's exceptionally rare in my experience.

I think the last 6 dungeons appeal only to a minority of players, almost entirely already guildies or friends and that the expectation of failure in a pug undermines the spontaneity one used to enjoy in signing up for vet dungeon run via lfg. We can of course arrange guild runs when the right ppl are online to make a group viable, but that's not the point. I miss most, whenhaving say, only an hour or so playtime available, being able to sign up to any dungeon on my healer or tank via lfg and at least feel we had a decent crack at completing a dungeon. I no longer do and have effectively withdrawn from dungeon life unless ppl need me to pitch in in our guild..

And that's a real shame.

I propose that there should be three tiers of difficulty for the 6 dlc dungeons: an elite mode, for want of a better term (suggestions?) to please those people who meet in established groups to complete the 6 vet dungeons mentioned above. This would be similar in difficulty to the current vet default, where PUGs will rarely succeed. The default vet mode would then be pitched somewhere between that and normal hence achievable with pugs, but somewhat challenging still. Normals would remain as they are. In other words, the highest tier of difficulty would be the current vet HMs, which would have to be opted into via lfg, but the default difficulty for dlc vets would be lower and Puggable, which, in the main, they currently are not.

Thoughts?

i'm somewhat ok with the hard part, but way to fucken long, i like to be in and out in 10-15 min max, don't want it to be a lifetime achievement award for tanking hours to do on vet, that the trials take hours to put groups together, just get rid of time and keep it simple, especially with all the daily things you need to do to keep on top of everything

mike_skleinub17_ESO

I somewhat agree. I did many Vaults and White Tower this weekend. Most were good, a few failed. Partly from having under 50 DPS. The one's that succeeded of course had at least one 720 in there. I'm about 425. Although, there was one 720 tank who ran ahead in Tower and killed the one Fire Ogre thingy by himself and no one else got a hit so no one else got loot. Then he stood there until he finally left.

Cradle especially will fail every time on normal if under 50. Unless there's a 720 or two who can carry the lowbies. So up to maybe Wayrest 1 should be for under 50 (or over obviously) then everything else after that for over 50. With CP ranks required for the really hard ones.

Motherball

Minority content for minority players. Fail to see a problem. If its too hard, then just avoid it, imo. Stop paying for/participating in it if you want to see a change.

josiahva

Tasmin wrote: »

I have been left cold by the last 6 dungeon dlcs because I think them too hard to be fun in vet, and only do-able in established groups with guildies unless you luck into an incredible PUG - and how often does that happen?

Now, I quite like Imperial Prison and don't think it its sister dungeon White Gold Tower is unfair but neither are favourites. But they are not the offending dungeons to my mind. The ones I have never enjoyed are The Hist dungeons, Ruins of Mazzarum and Cradle of Shadows. These are murderous in pugs and so very rarely successful via LFG. You can add to this list the DLC which followed, the Horns of the Reach dungeons Falkreath Hold and BloodRoot Forge. Then, just to make sure that Zenimax estranged hitherto happy dungeon goers like myself, they released the Dragon Bones dungeons, Scalecaller Peak and Fang Lair.

Long time guildies of mine will remember I used to live in dungeons during my online playtime but now I very rarely do them, and am wary or using the LFG tool for fear of getting a doomed-from-the start later-dlc run or worse, a "blue portal of death" run (where usually one or two lowbie DDs have come up against hard bosses, the group has split and rather than admit defeat you get sucked into their train crash via LFG, as a replacement for the players who rightly fled).

Now of course people will say that they have occasionally got lucky with PUGs via LFG but that's exceptionally rare in my experience.

I think the last 6 dungeons appeal only to a minority of players, almost entirely already guildies or friends and that the expectation of failure in a pug undermines the spontaneity one used to enjoy in signing up for vet dungeon run via lfg. We can of course arrange guild runs when the right ppl are online to make a group viable, but that's not the point. I miss most, whenhaving say, only an hour or so playtime available, being able to sign up to any dungeon on my healer or tank via lfg and at least feel we had a decent crack at completing a dungeon. I no longer do and have effectively withdrawn from dungeon life unless ppl need me to pitch in in our guild..

And that's a real shame.

I propose that there should be three tiers of difficulty for the 6 dlc dungeons: an elite mode, for want of a better term (suggestions?) to please those people who meet in established groups to complete the 6 vet dungeons mentioned above. This would be similar in difficulty to the current vet default, where PUGs will rarely succeed. The default vet mode would then be pitched somewhere between that and normal hence achievable with pugs, but somewhat challenging still. Normals would remain as they are. In other words, the highest tier of difficulty would be the current vet HMs, which would have to be opted into via lfg, but the default difficulty for dlc vets would be lower and Puggable, which, in the main, they currently are not.

Thoughts?

False. I regularly pug ALL of the vet DLC dungeons with an 80% success rate(occasionally even a pug HM if its a good group) The ONLY exception is vFH which I have yet to successfully pug...the last boss is just too much for most I guess

P.S. I always pug with my shield-spamming meat tank, and know all the mechanics, so its possible I carry more dead-weight than an average pug tank, but I wouldn't really know. The key to ANY pug experience is just that...experience....the dungeons become easier and easier to pug as time goes on and more people learn the mechanics. I cant tell you how many times in the first few days I wiped with pugs on the menagerie in vFL...but now that everyone knows the score wipes on that boss are far less often.

greylox

I don't pug dlc vets, will try in the guild but it's quite a casual one and rarely get round to it. I don't buy the dungeon dlc either because of this, but ESO plus ....so I rarely use the Group Finder anymore. Once I've done a DLC vet that's normally the last time I go there.

MTijhuis

I get what OP is saying. The difference between normal and veteran is quite big in dungeons. A specially of you compare it with overland content. Which a specially is difficult for casual and newer players.

What most players on the forums forget is that the majority of the player base doesn't hit above 20k dps. They don't run bis builds and they don't have set rotations.

But even with lower dps in normal dlc dungeons the boss dies to fast to see the consequences of the boss mechanics.

I agree with OP that there should be a other level for vet dlc dungeons. Like a normal hardmode version where the difficulty is between normal and veteran from the first add pull till the end boss.

But I would also like to see a new hardmode for vet dungeons. Where not only the last boss get more difficult but the whole dungeon gets harder.

firedrgn

I have pugged every dungeon i have ru cept for the last two dlc i think . Just no ti.e to play with real life.

With the exception of a few runs i have a hoot most of the time.

Vahrokh

Astrid_V wrote: »

I will quote eso devs: "git gud".

ESO (sadly) had been made for complete dummies who couldn't discern an axe from a shield.

If you create a MMO with "Free Facebook Farmville" grade content, then you are going to attract that kind of players.

We have now a MMO that has 90% of such playerbase, 5% of "barely decent" players and the remaining players are from "good+".

Then, the developers, create content that is either for the 90% Farmville players OR for the last 5% and we still act surprised if it's so hard to find people able to do the latter.

datgladiatah

I'm still here waiting in bated breath for vet 2 versions of their base dungeons... what happened at Tempest Island?? Direfrost??? I must know!! They'd make them as hard as CoA2 though...

I like their difficulty but there's no way to overcome most mechanics after a death. Too many boss interrupts, whirling one hit aoes, adds etc. So they feel like they were designed with organized groups in mind only. I don't know if that's fair. I wish there were more mechanics that depended on individual skill.

firedrgn

A a big part is people to lazy to communicate over low dps.
People wont even say hi. There should be a vox in game for pc.
I would kick for no communication before low dps.

If u can get people to stop running around i can drop a destro ulti and clean up mobs or burn boss

BalticBlues

Carbonised wrote: »

Funny thing is, I specifically recall them nerfing vWGT and vICP several times through the years, since their "statistics shows that people would often skip these dungeons as daily pledges, and the numbers showed that very few people actually finished these dungeons".

Fine and dandy, and then they friggin' go and add 6 more dungeons that make WGT and ICP look like a Sunday stroll in the park. [...] What the heck?

QFT

The core problem:
- on NORMAL, all new DLC dungeons are too easy for most PUGS
- on VETERAN, all new DLC dungeons are too hard for most PUGS

Suggestion: for vet DLC dungeons, ZOS could enable some automatic buffs for PUGS

Tan9oSuccka

I’ve tried, but I’ve conceded the fact I’ll never own the Nord DLC home. Gated behind Vet DLC clears where other players have to be semi competent.

I don’t even bother with DLC vet runs anymore.

Madhojo

Played once with a 720, DPS guy, real hot shot, you know the type, the kind who quit and trash talk once the going gets tough.

Well, here we are fighting some boss in some dungeon, done it 1000 times before, and the blueberry, see we callem blueberries where I"m from, he just stands in the red and dies real quick like. 10 maybe 20 times in a row. Then he gets all uppity and says "Ur all trash" then just leaves, just as you like. Mind you my buddys a mage, we callem mages where I'm from, and he's only got 10k hit points a real glass cannon as it were, and done didn't die not once.

Well we went on and beat that there dungeon, just like the thousands before, and that 720? well i never did see him again, but they say, some nights, when youre running dungeons, if you listen real hard you can still hear him, standing in the red, just yelling like, dying and quitting dying and quitting. i think that must be what hell is like

But usually, most people are ok with me, most people try and help, and i can live with that

Sergykid

those who answer "don't pug" just come here to troll.
Nobody wants to pug, we just want to join a random dungeon for the daily reward. And there isn't always there in the guild waiting for you to log in so you can ask them to come. But then the RNG strikes you with a difficult dungeon from which you'd rather join another dungeon on another character until the 15 minutes pass.

banning some dungeons from "random" would be nice, since they're so many now

MLGProPlayer

They're not supposed to be PUGable. If you want PUGable, do them on normal difficulty. That's why there are 2 difficulties.

MLGProPlayer

Tasmin wrote: »

Saint_Bud wrote: »

Search for a guild and run with the people from it. Problem fixed.

No it isn't. I can and do run with guildies and friends to finish content in all the dungeons, but that requires the right ppl to be online at the same time.

What I can't do, and what my post was about, is hop onto the game with an hour or two of gameplay to spare, and grab a joyful run in DLC dungeons via lfg - because the difficulty curve of these dungeons is so often prohibitively hard for pugs, in my experience, except where I have all-too-rarely lucked into a fab pug.

With an adjusted difficulty, specifically the introduction of a middle tier level of challenge, I think the good times could roll again for those of us who want dungeon runs pitched somewhere between normal and the current wtf difficulty we see in the recent dlc dungeons.

There are 28 non-DLC dungeons. Do them instead.

It sounds to me like you want to be able to beat vet DLC dibgeons without putting in the work to learn the mechanics. Some of us enjoy the difficulty curve. The majority of ths game is a cakewalk. There is plenty of content for you. Leave something for those of us that like a challenge and stop being greedy.

gabriebe

It would be a lot easier if there was an in-game voice system like they (presumably) have on console.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

I'm fine with the DLC dungeons being an especially difficult challenge, but there is NO reason for those dungeons to be in the same pool as the vanilla dungeons. It's a night and day difference in difficulty, especially at the veteran level. I've literally never seen or heard of another rpg that would put such vastly different challenges into the same broad category.

The simplest, most effective solution to stop discouraging new players and frustrating experienced puggers is to just segregate the DLC dungeons into their own queue. We have enough now to make it work. That way, players who aren't ready for the content won't be thrown into it just because they are trying to do a random and get some bonus rewards. CP 300 is meaningless, gear and rotation determines the majority of your dps anyway, and you could easily just dump all your cp into the wrong things and invalidate all your point choices.

And to everyone saying "but muh kyuuu times!" I'd rather have an extra 5-10 minutes of queue time than have to worry about whether or not my group will actually be able to complete the dungeon, even if we're all somewhat competent.

The way the system currently works, it's like the devs are saying "you're not even ALLOWED to use the random button until you're confident you can clear a DLC dungeon". Like, why even have the button at all then?

MLGProPlayer

gabriebe wrote: »

It would be a lot easier if there was an in-game voice system like they (presumably) have on console.

This. The dungeons aren't hard. There is just no way to explain the mechanics to someone who doesn't know them.