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PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance
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Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »
Templars have no source of Maim, and fewer (and worse) self-heals than mDKs for that matter, and we get along. Riposte is a more reliable source of Maim anyway.Anti_Virus wrote: »Choking talons(Dark Talons Morph) change to deal poison damge or physical damage and cost stamina.
This is the only access to Minor Maim that DK has.
Yes well templars are also in need of love so please let's not balance DKs by comparing them to templars!
I disagree that templar heals are worse per se; they are just harder to incorporate while staying aggressive.
Personally I'd rank magplar viability below magDK right now in PVP.
Anyway Choking is a major tank PVE skill.Anti_Virus wrote: »
Burning Talons is the "damage" morph and Choking the "tank" morph. I kinda doubt they'd add Minor Main to Burning without dialing back the damage, and magicka needs the damage.
Perhaps a better solution would be to rework Petrify. Make Shattering Rocks do physical damage and cost stamina, and still sets enemies nearby off-balance. Then give Fossilize it's range back. They can take the root off Fossilize to balance it, but the tiny range is straight up garbage on a magDK when almost every class can easily kite a magDK.
Stam whip I always kind of have issues with. Stam already has access to a huge range of stamina damage abilities via weapon lines. Magicka has class abilities and destro, that's it.
So you have a problem with stam talons and inhale aswell as stam whip too?
Why? You explained stam whip which I disagree with(couldn't this arguement be used with templar and NB and look what they got) but why stam talons and breath? Are youna selfish mDk that wants to hoard skills for mDk sake? Or am I missing something which morph would you be willing to give up for stam DK in terms of talons and Inhale like Stam Dk gave up one morph of leap.
Because gutting mDK to buff stamDK is not the solution.
how it this gutting mDK? mDK has other spammable and flame lash is more popular than molten whip. By that logic making bitting jabs a stam morph and suprise attack a stam morph gutted mTemplar and mNB right?
If stam DK has everything magDK has, there's no reason to play magDK. Whip is THE iconic magDK skill. these suggestions aren't everything mDk has its simply asking for un popular morphs. Whip isn't the Iconic mDk skill thats subjective stop it. MDK will not become obsolete if these changes went through your being over dramatic
Both morphs of talons are important and used extensively; one is for Damage and the other for Tanks. how about one for mDKs and the other for stam DKs you are aware that stam Dk tanks exist right? And they would like for choking talons to cost stam to use other mag costing skills the main purpose of the skill to CC and stam Dks deserve an AoE root like the mag counter part. Perhaps choking can deal physical/posion damage with a small chance of procing posion status effect and still cost magika to not harm tanks.
A stam inhale would be fine but taking the good morph and leaving the other morph which isn't that good? Bad choice. The whole skill needs a rework if they want a stam inhale. a rework? What? No rework needed just make this morph stam based and buff the other morph to return more magika its that simple, or the other morph return stamina/deal increase damage and interrupt morph remain magicka simple.
I think the stam version of petrify I suggested would be really a huge buff for stamDK, especially with the Exploiter passive, which is in a tree magicka users can't really use. And with the Earthen Heart Passives, it activates Minor Brutality, generates Ultimate and gives back stamina. So one buff improves damage and sustain while giving stamDKs better access to a strong CC. Either you are trolling or biased that last thing stam DK needs is another CC are you kidding me? There are two CCs in earthern heart skill line which work well enough is this the best stam Dk suggestion you can come up with?
So to sum up your arguement my suggestions are a no go because mDk needs to feel special and unique so it can't share useless class morphs.
I can understand talons concern but everything else seems a bit selfish.
Edited by Anti_Virus on April 22, 2018 9:52PMPower Wealth And Influence.1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭AddictionX wrote: »AddictionX wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
It will for sure bring them down to the bottom of the dps pool, only above Warden. Aside from Warden, it will be all stam/mag dps > StamDK. Frankly, this sucks. I main a StamDK, which I've put a lot of effort into, and I don't want to feel like I'm dead weight once a trial boss hits 25%, but that seems to be where Summerset is taking us.
I don't know if it's "fine", certainly viable, but not something people will be jumping at the chance to play. I have pvp'd a small amount on my StamDK, and while it's not enough to offer as much input as a lot here, I felt like it suffered from identity issues just as it does in pve. I see SDK as a pressure-based dps class, with pressure in the form of dots (claw, breath), but at the same time (correct me if I'm wrong) claw can just be purged off and breath is unreliable/can also be purged off.
StamDK could use a bit more in the pressure department while adding more class identity (more dot pressure, poison?) to flesh out the class a bit. I don't really have a great idea as to how this would be implemented though. For PVP, if I'm correct about claw/breath being purgeable, why not start with just making the dots unable to be removed?
I doubt it'd be that bad. IIRC StamDK was parsing 70k on that test they did. (Where MDK was top with 73k) but they might not be top dog anymore, since you can't get super-optimized groups with NMG/Sunder/Morag. Stamplar and warden will still parse less. On the upside, StamDK has a really easy rotation, which will be better for certain mechanic heavy fights.
I'll believe 70k stamdk when I see it. StamDK is also not the best dps currently, so I'm having a hard time understanding how it could be 3k under the "best".
edit: just to put things into perspective due to how strong bloodthirsty is right now, stamdk would have to be well above other dps with executes before the sub 25 execute phase to be that high. I've never seen a 50m dummy melt sub 25% as fast as I did the other night when my guild did a group parse.
edit again: The only way I could see this being possible is with some kind of atypical gear combination I'm unaware of that's specific to Summerset/jewelry crafting.
The 70k was on the dev test, with 100% uptime on all the buffs. Both will be hitting less, but its not like stamDK will be uselessAddictionX wrote: »Green Dragons Blood: Heal for 33 percent of missing health.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »
Nightblade
[*]Dark Cloak (Shadow Cloak morph): This morph no longer grants invisibility; instead it heals you for 32% of your Max Health over 3 seconds and grants Minor Protection for the duration.
WTF!
Instant vs not instant. GDB is better for tanks, who might be in a tight spot. You cast dark cloak, and keep getting bombarded at low health, then their might be issues.
Did you just ignore everything I wrote?!
Heals on Missing Health vs Healing on MAX HEALTH off the bat. See this on a health stacked tank? Or a MAGICKA nightblade Tank that has access to damage BURST in their SKILL TREES that other tanks dont have? Besides the fact that this is completely broken on a tank.
Let me explain it Healing with dragons blood is instant based on MISSING HEALTH! So for it to act as a burst heal you need to be dying and generally, if someone is dying you is because you're out of resources in the first place!
The issue is don't need to be at low health to make use of this you can cast it and get a vigor like heal. Low health? Just shield stack and use this and your up to full. Block and wait till you're healed up. Dodge till you're hp is topped off.
Are you saying this is NOT a magicka version of VIGOR?
very large difference between Healing on Missing health vs Healing on Max health.
@AddictionX
No. I did not miss what you are saying. You don't have to be out of resources for it to be useful as a tank. There are hits that take you down to sub 40%. There are also times, like if you are running 3dd, where you have no healer, so will be low health (even down to 20%) a lot. A burst heal is much better to get you out of the dangerzone. Not to mention major mending and a shield from igneous and DK healing passives. For PvE, both will be good, but in different ways. A DK tank is still preferred because of good dual stat sustain, and the better pull.
As for the mythic magNB tank that runs burst damage. Haha what.
Every tank has to spec high enough into health to stop being 1shot, and high enough into resource recovery, that their damage will be nearly null, their bars and sets will be full of group support that then lowers it further. (I assume the shield stacking/dodge is PvP related, but if not, then read on) That goes same for NB shields, due to low mag, and the ability to dodge, which no sane tank will do anyway since the boss will move with you, and jeopardize the group and lower DPS if it moves out of certain AoEs/melee range.
So PvP, due to the mention of shieldstacking or dodging. This won't be great either. Most NBs run around 25k health, some even lower. This 33% health translates to 11% every second, or in PvP 5.5% every second. (Unless its 4 ticks, one on cast then over 3s) If the former, then you get 1375 health per second for 3s. If the latter, you get 1031 health per second over 3s+initial. Not far from a mag vigor in plain ticks, but less healing, less length, high cost, and loss of shadow cloak for defense. Cauterize is better.
TL;DR: Your post is wrong, and you have shown quite obviously.
So at 6250k health on a DK which would be near executed range say thats 25% of 25k (for same numbers) aside from the fact that if your that low the pressure someone will put on you will also completely press you hard for resources getting out of executing range its not like we can just run away either. Don't neglect this fact. The cost is really higher due to getting out of execute range as alot of skills and cp tree passsives/skills also work agaisnt you at the bear minimum of 25% hp.
Let's assume our DK hero doesn't die... lol.
You would burst heal using not 33 percent of 25k ....but 33% of 18,750k... in pvp it would be 15% translating into a whooping 2812.5k health healed for a grand total magicka cost of 4320. That'll show'em. Oh yeah by the way... here is a light attack we know you can't rolly polly out of this one. But what do I know. Oh yeah here is the major mending buff you will magically cast for 4050 magicka. So in your scenario its going to cost 4320+4050 to burst heal for what?
We're pushing into the triple digits ladies and gents up from 2812.5.... be awed and amazed.
Also thats a best case scenario assuming you survive with 6k hp left not stunned, not with cc immunity, block, or whatever else. Chances of survival are pretty weak. At this point, you will probably eat an ultimate to the face not like its really needed a stun will do it too. Back to this danger zone you go.
Caulterize doesn't heal based on missing health dude. Caulterize doesn't heal on max health.
Do you know why magicka doesn't have a vigor? Because just about every healing buff uses magicka, most healing skills use magicka, some of the most healing sets are in light armor, light armor grants what you need to sustain it but the main reason is the ability to stack into one single stat for all defenses and offenses.
I never said GDB is good for non PvE tanks lul, trust me, I know its awful. You claimed that cloak would be good at low max health, that it'd be a mag vigor or OP. Its not.
"This is completely broken on a tank." and You can cast it and get a vigor like heal. Low health? Just shield stack and use this and your up to full. Block and wait till you're healed up. Dodge till you're hp is topped off. Are you saying this is NOT a magicka version of VIGOR?"
They are both tank skills. (Cloak/GDB) and they are both effective for that.Edited by ak_pvp on April 22, 2018 9:18PMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »
Templars have no source of Maim, and fewer (and worse) self-heals than mDKs for that matter, and we get along. Riposte is a more reliable source of Maim anyway.Anti_Virus wrote: »Choking talons(Dark Talons Morph) change to deal poison damge or physical damage and cost stamina.
This is the only access to Minor Maim that DK has.
Yes well templars are also in need of love so please let's not balance DKs by comparing them to templars! I disagree that templar heals are worse per se; they are just harder to incorporate while staying aggressive.
Personally I'd rank magplar viability below magDK right now in PVP.
Anyway Choking is a major tank PVE skill.Anti_Virus wrote: »
Burning Talons is the "damage" morph and Choking the "tank" morph. I kinda doubt they'd add Minor Main to Burning without dialing back the damage, and magicka needs the damage.
Perhaps a better solution would be to rework Petrify. Make Shattering Rocks do physical damage and cost stamina, and still sets enemies nearby off-balance. Then give Fossilize it's range back. They can take the root off Fossilize to balance it, but the tiny range is straight up garbage on a magDK when almost every class can easily kite a magDK.
Stam whip I always kind of have issues with. Stam already has access to a huge range of stamina damage abilities via weapon lines. Magicka has class abilities and destro, that's it.
So you have a problem with stam talons and inhale aswell as stam whip too?
Why? You explained stam whip which I disagree with(couldn't this arguement be used with templar and NB and look what they got) but why stam talons and breath? Are youna selfish mDk that wants to hoard skills for mDk sake? Or am I missing something which morph would you be willing to give up for stam DK in terms of talons and Inhale like Stam Dk gave up one morph of leap.
Because gutting mDK to buff stamDK is not the solution. If stam DK has everything magDK has, there's no reason to play magDK. Whip is THE iconic magDK skill. I
Both morphs of talons are important and used extensively; one is for Damage and the other for Tanks.
A stam inhale would be fine but taking the good morph and leaving the other morph which isn't that good? Bad choice. The whole skill needs a rework if they want a stam inhale.
I think the stam version of petrify I suggested would be really a huge buff for stamDK, especially with the Exploiter passive, which is in a tree magicka users can't really use. And with the Earthen Heart Passives, it activates Minor Brutality, generates Ultimate and gives back stamina. So one buff improves damage and sustain while giving stamDKs better access to a strong CC.
MagDK could happily give up the useless morph of inhale. (Deep breath post changes) and have it become a worth while stam morph, and the dot talons wouldn't be a massive loss, talons damage is not the best overall, and most MDKs go choking if running it at all, assuming they make choking flame damage it should be all good. (Choking has to stay mag, its the maim morph used for tanks. Making it flame would also synergise well for tanks with combustion.)
Whip is kind of the MagDKs only signature skill, since everything else can be done better by other classes. I wouldn't be totally against molten being stam, but powerlash is mag.
Then if they make wings good with snare immunity (2.5s at least) and a better actual reflect function, I think both DKs will be back in business. StamDK could use rally then too.
MagDK might need a functioning finisher, since powerlash, the defacto finisher outside of leap is now dodgable and can't finish ***. More and more things are becoming homogenized, and it seems to be the DK losing out the most, so I wouldn't be surprised..MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AddictionX wrote: »ALL of these JUICY IDEAS keep them coming.
This thread SHALL BE SPAMMED with CONSTRUCTIVE irresistible Feedback that CANT BE UNSEEN!
Especially liked that Claw one where reapplying or purging it causes the DOT to hit at once with the remainder or the damage done.
So you're insinuating that if I spam claw it will continue to do the full damage of the remainder? That will definitely get put in the game because it is so balanced.0 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@BohnT
I would also suggest changing battle roar to scale with your max stat i.e when using an ultimate that is 100+ you regain 25% of your max resources, when using an ultimate that is 200+ you regain 50% of your max resources.
I feel it may be op but what do you feel about that idea?
I think the current battle roar has something over the old one and that is that you get so much resources back for your off stat.
Also increasing the return on the individual usage might have a bad influence as you are forced to spam your ultimate to get decent sustain.
I'd like it more to increase the ultimate Regeneration of DKs so you aren't as punished for spamming ultimates as we are right now due to the lowest ultigen in the game for all classes
You don't have the lowest ulti regen of all class, please stop it.
magSorcerer and magtemplar have the worst ulti regen, not DK.
You need to look at effective regen.
A sorcerer for offense need to use Meteor, that cost 170 ultimate VS a DK leap that cost 125.
Same for a resto ultimate, the DK will have it before.
And anything stam can have minor heroism.
Magplar has the same 0.5 ult per second as magdk but has 4% cost reduction on top.
Let's compare the same base cost ults for both classes when talking magdk and magsorc.
Ulti regen base: 3/s from LA
Magsorc: 170/3/s= 56.67s
Magdk: 200/3.5/s = 57.14s
125 (Dbos):
Sorc: 106/3/s= 35.42s
DK: 125/3.5/s= 35.72s
100 (Soulassault)
Sorc: 85/3/s=28.33s
DK: 100/3.5/s= 28.57s
Sorc in pvp has even better ulti gain through alliance war passive+ endless fury but we won't take that into account now.
You might want to reread what you originally posted. You said DK has the worst ultigen in the game. The cost of your ultimates has nothing to do with how much ultigen you have. DKs get a passive, that when used, returns 3 ulti every 6 seconds.0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭@BohnT
I would also suggest changing battle roar to scale with your max stat i.e when using an ultimate that is 100+ you regain 25% of your max resources, when using an ultimate that is 200+ you regain 50% of your max resources.
I feel it may be op but what do you feel about that idea?
I think the current battle roar has something over the old one and that is that you get so much resources back for your off stat.
Also increasing the return on the individual usage might have a bad influence as you are forced to spam your ultimate to get decent sustain.
I'd like it more to increase the ultimate Regeneration of DKs so you aren't as punished for spamming ultimates as we are right now due to the lowest ultigen in the game for all classes
You don't have the lowest ulti regen of all class, please stop it.
magSorcerer and magtemplar have the worst ulti regen, not DK.
You need to look at effective regen.
A sorcerer for offense need to use Meteor, that cost 170 ultimate VS a DK leap that cost 125.
Same for a resto ultimate, the DK will have it before.
And anything stam can have minor heroism.
Magplar has the same 0.5 ult per second as magdk but has 4% cost reduction on top.
Let's compare the same base cost ults for both classes when talking magdk and magsorc.
Ulti regen base: 3/s from LA
Magsorc: 170/3/s= 56.67s
Magdk: 200/3.5/s = 57.14s
125 (Dbos):
Sorc: 106/3/s= 35.42s
DK: 125/3.5/s= 35.72s
100 (Soulassault)
Sorc: 85/3/s=28.33s
DK: 100/3.5/s= 28.57s
Sorc in pvp has even better ulti gain through alliance war passive+ endless fury but we won't take that into account now.
You might want to reread what you originally posted. You said DK has the worst ultigen in the game. The cost of your ultimates has nothing to do with how much ultigen you have. DKs get a passive, that when used, returns 3 ulti every 6 seconds.
Warden and Templar have that exact same passive...Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@BohnT
I would also suggest changing battle roar to scale with your max stat i.e when using an ultimate that is 100+ you regain 25% of your max resources, when using an ultimate that is 200+ you regain 50% of your max resources.
I feel it may be op but what do you feel about that idea?
I think the current battle roar has something over the old one and that is that you get so much resources back for your off stat.
Also increasing the return on the individual usage might have a bad influence as you are forced to spam your ultimate to get decent sustain.
I'd like it more to increase the ultimate Regeneration of DKs so you aren't as punished for spamming ultimates as we are right now due to the lowest ultigen in the game for all classes
You don't have the lowest ulti regen of all class, please stop it.
magSorcerer and magtemplar have the worst ulti regen, not DK.
You need to look at effective regen.
A sorcerer for offense need to use Meteor, that cost 170 ultimate VS a DK leap that cost 125.
Same for a resto ultimate, the DK will have it before.
And anything stam can have minor heroism.
Magplar has the same 0.5 ult per second as magdk but has 4% cost reduction on top.
Let's compare the same base cost ults for both classes when talking magdk and magsorc.
Ulti regen base: 3/s from LA
Magsorc: 170/3/s= 56.67s
Magdk: 200/3.5/s = 57.14s
125 (Dbos):
Sorc: 106/3/s= 35.42s
DK: 125/3.5/s= 35.72s
100 (Soulassault)
Sorc: 85/3/s=28.33s
DK: 100/3.5/s= 28.57s
Sorc in pvp has even better ulti gain through alliance war passive+ endless fury but we won't take that into account now.
You might want to reread what you originally posted. You said DK has the worst ultigen in the game. The cost of your ultimates has nothing to do with how much ultigen you have. DKs get a passive, that when used, returns 3 ulti every 6 seconds.
As the amount of ulti generated is directly linked to the number of ultimates used i used them to be equal.
I rephrase it but it should be clear what is meant by my statement.0 -
zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »
Templars have no source of Maim, and fewer (and worse) self-heals than mDKs for that matter, and we get along. Riposte is a more reliable source of Maim anyway.Anti_Virus wrote: »Choking talons(Dark Talons Morph) change to deal poison damge or physical damage and cost stamina.
This is the only access to Minor Maim that DK has.
Yes well templars are also in need of love so please let's not balance DKs by comparing them to templars! I disagree that templar heals are worse per se; they are just harder to incorporate while staying aggressive.
Personally I'd rank magplar viability below magDK right now in PVP.
Anyway Choking is a major tank PVE skill.Anti_Virus wrote: »
Burning Talons is the "damage" morph and Choking the "tank" morph. I kinda doubt they'd add Minor Main to Burning without dialing back the damage, and magicka needs the damage.
Perhaps a better solution would be to rework Petrify. Make Shattering Rocks do physical damage and cost stamina, and still sets enemies nearby off-balance. Then give Fossilize it's range back. They can take the root off Fossilize to balance it, but the tiny range is straight up garbage on a magDK when almost every class can easily kite a magDK.
Stam whip I always kind of have issues with. Stam already has access to a huge range of stamina damage abilities via weapon lines. Magicka has class abilities and destro, that's it.
So you have a problem with stam talons and inhale aswell as stam whip too?
Why? You explained stam whip which I disagree with(couldn't this arguement be used with templar and NB and look what they got) but why stam talons and breath? Are youna selfish mDk that wants to hoard skills for mDk sake? Or am I missing something which morph would you be willing to give up for stam DK in terms of talons and Inhale like Stam Dk gave up one morph of leap.
Because gutting mDK to buff stamDK is not the solution. If stam DK has everything magDK has, there's no reason to play magDK. Whip is THE iconic magDK skill. I
Both morphs of talons are important and used extensively; one is for Damage and the other for Tanks.
A stam inhale would be fine but taking the good morph and leaving the other morph which isn't that good? Bad choice. The whole skill needs a rework if they want a stam inhale.
I think the stam version of petrify I suggested would be really a huge buff for stamDK, especially with the Exploiter passive, which is in a tree magicka users can't really use. And with the Earthen Heart Passives, it activates Minor Brutality, generates Ultimate and gives back stamina. So one buff improves damage and sustain while giving stamDKs better access to a strong CC.
MagDK could happily give up the useless morph of inhale. (Deep breath post changes) and have it become a worth while stam morph, and the dot talons wouldn't be a massive loss, talons damage is not the best overall, and most MDKs go choking if running it at all, assuming they make choking flame damage it should be all good. (Choking has to stay mag, its the maim morph used for tanks. Making it flame would also synergise well for tanks with combustion.)
Whip is kind of the MagDKs only signature skill, since everything else can be done better by other classes. I wouldn't be totally against molten being stam, but powerlash is mag.
Then if they make wings good with snare immunity (2.5s at least) and a better actual reflect function, I think both DKs will be back in business. StamDK could use rally then too.
MagDK might need a functioning finisher, since powerlash, the defacto finisher outside of leap is now dodgable and can't finish ***. More and more things are becoming homogenized, and it seems to be the DK losing out the most, so I wouldn't be surprised..
Bro these are good changes all magdks know, however as I have found out in my other post titled, “The Pts Scam”. Zos does not and will not make changes like adding abilities to skills or passives (even of their obvious a*s ones) once the pts comes out. All dks in general will get the same,” we plan to balance combat more in the next major patch” bs.1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I mainly talk about the PvE issues for DKs.
First of all, let´s start with MagDK. Many people complain that DKs got sustain buffs and all the other classes received nerfs. If you ever bothered with PvE you would know MagDK couldn´t sustain *** all since the Morrowind changes were made. And yes the combustion passive helps out a little bit with that, but sustain will still be an issue. While both stamina and magicka NBs can easily sustain a 6Million dummy without doing heavy attacks, MagDKs already struggle on 3mil. I´m not saying all the other classes are fine, I´m simply comparing DKs to NBs, because what we see in endgame PvE atm is a raid full of Nightblades.
Now there are a few possibilities to fix things for DKs and make it easier, by not changing things dramatically. Change Battle Roar back to what it was, it was fantastic, it felt good and it was both, useful for tanks and DDs. It helped sustain a lot and by just nerfing this passive and not providing an alternative combined with the CP changes in Morrowind, MagDK was just in a horrible spot until now. I mentioned combustion, well it isn´t fantastic but a step in the right direction, if you change it around a little bit, so the proc comes with fire/poison dmg instead of the status effect, this would actually pretty decent, not OP, but not too weak either. Together with Battle Roar as it used to be, it would definitely help DKs a lot.
There is also some abilities like Eruption, it is super expensive and deals very little damage. If you compare this skill with Twisting Path, for example, you can do nothing else but laugh. I mean a snare is not a great bonus effect in PvE anyway and PvPers won't use this skill, because people will simply run out of it very quickly as the radius isn´t huge. But things like this could be addressed later, first of all, make MagDK sustain better and give them back their spot in trials, so we don´t just see full NB raids.
This wouldn't require any changes to class abilities nor would it affect other classes. It would simply benefit DKs and make them a viable choice in PvE. I also don't think this would be overperforming in PvP, yes MagDKs are strong, but a little bit more sustain would not break the class.
Now StamDK: With the changes to off-balance made in Dragon Bones DLC, StamDK got hit quite hard in PvE. Well, it won´t be much better next patch with further nerfs affecting all Stamina Classes; while DKs still had a good spot being a debuff *** in Trials, due to the fact that they do a lot of heavy attacks, which made it easy to keep up Sunderflame for example, we will probably not see many DKs next patch, with the alterings made to Sunder and NMG. Now I don´t want them to just leave Sunderflame and NMG as it is, I just want to mention that again, sustain buffs would also help out StamDKs. With the ability to sustain a light attack rotation they might be viable and not just left behind. This brings me back to what I mentioned for MagDK.
However, I have no idea how to make StamDK better in PvP, but I reckon a lot of people here already suggested many good ideas. I wish these forums weren´t just there to keep us occupied, but to actually listen to us and try to fix things together with the community. I mean perfect balance won't be achievable anyway, there will always be a "meta" but trying to bring things in line, or at least making them playable would be awesome.
Cheers
Simply reverting battle roar would put stamDK in a much better spot in PvP, with a lot more build options. I believe this to be the best outcome for both magDk and stamDk.
Sadly as you said forums are there to mostly keep us occupied, keep us busy. Not much can be done about it, other than giving suggestions and hope that your words are heard by the dev team.2 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Honestly I do not feel Stam DK needs a breath or a whip or even talons because whip/breath is a Magicka thing and talons is a utility thing which is better to have a magicka consumption rather than burning my stamina in a fight.
We should just get rid of the stonefist ability and make it an ability more appealing to Stamina DKs whether that be a spamm-able or not that depends. We can alter fragmented shield to be more offensive, I've given my idea but others should present their own but let's not incorporate the shield anymore as it's weak in PvP anyway. We can make igneous weapons better maybe something like how imbue works but geared towards direct damage or HA. We can improve noxious breath for added duration with minor defile added or stronger initial damage. We need better or more up to date passives and we should scrap elder dragon completely, return helping hands to where it used to be, change warmth/update world in ruin, and return battle roar.
So remove stonefist
Make fragmented shield more offensive
Make igneous weapons act like imbue but unique in its own way
Improve Nox breath with minor defile, increased duration, and stronger initial hit
Scrap elder dragon
Return helping hands back to 5% upon earthen heart ability usage
change/update warmth
change/update world in ruin
Return battle roar back to where it was before the changes.Edited by MaxwellC on April 23, 2018 12:30AM不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell4 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭@BohnT
I would also suggest changing battle roar to scale with your max stat i.e when using an ultimate that is 100+ you regain 25% of your max resources, when using an ultimate that is 200+ you regain 50% of your max resources.
I feel it may be op but what do you feel about that idea?
I think the current battle roar has something over the old one and that is that you get so much resources back for your off stat.
Also increasing the return on the individual usage might have a bad influence as you are forced to spam your ultimate to get decent sustain.
I'd like it more to increase the ultimate Regeneration of DKs so you aren't as punished for spamming ultimates as we are right now due to the lowest ultigen in the game for all classes
You don't have the lowest ulti regen of all class, please stop it.
magSorcerer and magtemplar have the worst ulti regen, not DK.
You need to look at effective regen.
A sorcerer for offense need to use Meteor, that cost 170 ultimate VS a DK leap that cost 125.
Same for a resto ultimate, the DK will have it before.
And anything stam can have minor heroism.
And if the leap was a sorc or templar ult, it'd cost waaaaaay less, therefore the regen at the same pace but reaches the useable level much quicker, in effect, higher regen. Magplar also can benefit from in combat healing ultregen. Sorcs usually weave, ultgen is no problem. DKs have higher costs for what the skill does in general. For example, compare dragonleap to dbos and incap.
Dragonleap does nice damage and all but it is just one time deal and sometimes very unreliable (in lag, all those outrunnings, missing from timed cloak/dodgeroll). DBoS has attached DoT, incap is cheap and does a lot of thing. NB/Warden has the best ultgen, templars can generate ult through HoT also in combat on top of normal ult gen. Sorcs are compensated with cheaper costs. DKs? Only minor heroism from sets/skills outside of class skills. 3 ult for earthen heart with cd is not really something to fret over tbh. So, no. Sorc/Magplar is better than DK as far as ult goes.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel1 -
FloppyTouch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Can we just change shifting standard to a AoE that moves with you. Having to replace it just feels off in a middle of a fight and by the time the animation goes off they run out.
2 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »@BohnT
I would also suggest changing battle roar to scale with your max stat i.e when using an ultimate that is 100+ you regain 25% of your max resources, when using an ultimate that is 200+ you regain 50% of your max resources.
I feel it may be op but what do you feel about that idea?
I think the current battle roar has something over the old one and that is that you get so much resources back for your off stat.
Also increasing the return on the individual usage might have a bad influence as you are forced to spam your ultimate to get decent sustain.
I'd like it more to increase the ultimate Regeneration of DKs so you aren't as punished for spamming ultimates as we are right now due to the lowest ultigen in the game for all classes
You don't have the lowest ulti regen of all class, please stop it.
magSorcerer and magtemplar have the worst ulti regen, not DK.
You need to look at effective regen.
A sorcerer for offense need to use Meteor, that cost 170 ultimate VS a DK leap that cost 125.
Same for a resto ultimate, the DK will have it before.
And anything stam can have minor heroism.
Magplar has the same 0.5 ult per second as magdk but has 4% cost reduction on top.
Let's compare the same base cost ults for both classes when talking magdk and magsorc.
Ulti regen base: 3/s from LA
Magsorc: 170/3/s= 56.67s
Magdk: 200/3.5/s = 57.14s
125 (Dbos):
Sorc: 106/3/s= 35.42s
DK: 125/3.5/s= 35.72s
100 (Soulassault)
Sorc: 85/3/s=28.33s
DK: 100/3.5/s= 28.57s
Sorc in pvp has even better ulti gain through alliance war passive+ endless fury but we won't take that into account now.
You might want to reread what you originally posted. You said DK has the worst ultigen in the game. The cost of your ultimates has nothing to do with how much ultigen you have. DKs get a passive, that when used, returns 3 ulti every 6 seconds.
Warden and Templar have that exact same passive...
I believe you may have drawn conclusions from what I said. I never once argued that DK has higher ultigen then any class, was rather pointing out the flaw in his argument. Templar UltiGen=Dk UltiGen. Does Templar have reduced cost? Yes, but that does not effect how fast you generate ultimate.0 -
Machete✭✭✭Still waiting for wing snare immunity. 2-3 seconds is all I'm asking here.
Lemon-Party
Monarch Wintervine, Stamina DK, AD
Eiress Wintervine, Stamina Warden, AD
Aelireed Auntumnvine, Stamina Necromancer, AD
Sierena Hlaalu, Stamina Templar, AD
Blou Springwillow, Stamina Sorc, AD
Taliana Silverthorn, Stamina NB, AD
Monarch Wíntervine, Stamina DK, EP
Lily Hlaalu, Stamina NB, EP
Tankito Fondlini, DK Tank, EP
Evaii Spellborn, Magicka DK, AD
Thellion Evaire, Magicka Warden, AD
Weylenn Aenwee, Magicka Templar, AD
Valianna Syn, Magicka Sorc, AD
Aranyus Highren, Magicka NB, AD2 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I want wing immunity to last 4 seconds or as long as the ability lasts but it needs to be stamina and cost around 2500-3500 or the same exact costs as the magicka one just with it costing stamina instead. Reasoning is it'll remove one of the counters to Mag DK if it remains magicka i.e roots/snares.Edited by MaxwellC on April 23, 2018 7:23PM不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell1 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭I want wing immunity to last 4 seconds or as long as the ability lasts but it needs to be stamina and cost around 2500-3500 or the same exact costs as the magicka one just with it costing stamina instead. Reasoning is it'll remove one of the counters to Mag DK if it remains magicka i.e roots/snares.
if it cost stamina why run it if your a magicka dk you'd be better off running forward momentum would last longer. the reflect part are wings is trash it should reflect 100% of the ability even the status affect. it costing stamina would really only help stam dk
if they give stamdk anything it should be stone giant or draw essence morphs both would really help stamdk and just do 2 to 4 second snare removal to wings and it costing magicka
if stam dk had a class stun or a timed burst would help them a lot more than wings costing stam
Edited by lucky_Sage on April 23, 2018 8:17PMDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I want wing immunity to last 4 seconds or as long as the ability lasts but it needs to be stamina and cost around 2500-3500 or the same exact costs as the magicka one just with it costing stamina instead. Reasoning is it'll remove one of the counters to Mag DK if it remains magicka i.e roots/snares.
Translation: I want to be strong, but not you, you stay weak. Remember stamDK only dipped below MDK a couple of patches ago. (Last patch?) 7th carried heavily, with an effective 1k HoT if outnumbered.
You are also shooting yourself in the foot, losing stam for other things, where mag is better for both DKs for utility.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@lucky_Sage
You still mitigate long range combat so no it is; Plus the immunity is an added effect and it allows them to maximize damage by utilizing a staff or they can utilize 1h/shield or resto. That argument isn't strong to begin with but your other argument about it only helping Stam DK isn't correct either.
The change would allow you to still use wings just not spam it as much which would literally lock out long range combat which for the most part is the ideal way to fight a Mag DK due to their hard/soft cc spam + snare up time almost being at 100% thanks to warmth.
@ak_pvp
Mate don't use a armor set to try to justify why my idea is wrong, if you had something more meaningful other than "Well remember X set helped you X patch ago" isn't a valid argument especially when I have never even used that set. I rarely wear heavy armor in PvP and the only time I tried it was with fury but quickly switched back to medium because I preferred toe dodge roll cost reduction.
You're also exaggerating my idea for some reason you feel the cost should remain magicka because you want to be effective against a long range target when in PvP your skills are geared towards short range because you can lock an opponent in when they're at close range... so pretty much you want to be strong on both spectrums, well I do say that is what you call 'balanced'.
The current favorite on live is firescale and we sDKs use it just as frequent so again refuting your "I want to be strong but not you" argument but I also find it funny about the "you stay weak". Magicka DK in comparison to Stamina DK has been strong for quite sometime even prior to dragon bones. I've dueled plenty of Stam DKs on my Mag DK and no matter what they cannot win simply because I would blow their stamina to oblivion with the amount of snares/CCs I would be able to put out as I locked them down with shifting standard.
So short answer: If you feel that changing it to stamina somehow makes you weaker then that is b.s (IMO) because we (sDKs) use fire scale pretty frequently and our pool for Mag is usually around 10k. You cannot be the best at close range then expect to be the best at long range because that isn't balanced. You can have an immunity but those wings need to be Stamina so I don't have to sit there trying to fight a Mag DK at close range knowing that they can now almost infinitely get out of my snares while CCing me to death.
Edited by MaxwellC on April 23, 2018 9:00PM不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell2 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@lucky_Sage
You still mitigate long range combat so no it is; Plus the immunity is an added effect and it allows them to maximize damage by utilizing a staff or they can utilize 1h/shield or resto. That argument isn't strong to begin with but your other argument about it only helping Stam DK isn't correct either.
The change would allow you to still use wings just not spam it as much which would literally lock out long range combat which for the most part is the ideal way to fight a Mag DK due to their hard/soft cc spam + snare up time almost being at 100% thanks to warmth.
@ak_pvp
Mate don't use a armor set to try to justify why my idea is wrong, if you had something more meaningful other than "Well remember X set helped you X patch ago" isn't a valid argument especially when I have never even used that set. I rarely wear heavy armor in PvP and the only time I tried it was with fury but quickly switched back to medium because I preferred toe dodge roll cost reduction.
You're also exaggerating my idea for some reason you feel the cost should remain magicka because you want to be effective against a long range target when in PvP your skills are geared towards short range because you can lock an opponent in when they're at close range... so pretty much you want to be strong on both spectrums, well I do say that is what you call 'balanced'.
The current favorite on live is firescale and we sDKs use it just as frequent so again refuting your "I want to be strong but not you" argument but I also find it funny about the "you stay weak". Magicka DK in comparison to Stamina DK has been strong for quite sometime even prior to dragon bones. I've dueled plenty of Stam DKs on my Mag DK and no matter what they cannot win simply because I would blow their stamina to oblivion with the amount of snares/CCs I would be able to put out as I locked them down with shifting standard.
So short answer: If you feel that changing it to stamina somehow makes you weaker then that is b.s (IMO) because we (sDKs) use fire scale pretty frequently and our pool for Mag is usually around 10k. You cannot be the best at close range then expect to be the best at long range because that isn't balanced. You can have an immunity but those wings need to be Stamina so I don't have to sit there trying to fight a Mag DK at close range knowing that they can now almost infinitely get out of my snares while CCing me to death.
It would make it weaker on both accounts. Such as having shimmering or cloak be stam. MagNbs/wardens cann't sustain it with the heavy CC meta, and stamNB/warden loses stam for attacks/breakfrees to use an extra defense that they would instead use on offstat for utility, hence the low pool. It has nothing to do with being strong on both spectrums, would it not he the same for stamDK? Geared towards melee, but then having some modicum of ranged defense, which both specs need.
TL;DR: Mag needs stam more than stam needs mag, and stam can use mag for things that don't require high mag. Ask most stamDK mains which stat they would rather have it on, I have played both on mine, and since overall defense, and igneous got kind of suckish, mag was used decently elsewhere.
On balance: Magicka DK in comparison to Stamina DK has been strong for quite sometime. Kind of. They were in a right state post morrowind, and have got repetitively weaker, however so has everything else, making MagDK higher on the ladder. Stam had their clutches which made them insanely strong, remember the massive thing with elusive shady's build and the like. But then stam as a whole got nerfed, so only the base strong classes like NB/warden stayed good. Things like troll king nerf, evasion, 7th, block, (i.e. ult, cost) etc
I full well think stamDK needs a massive buff, stam burning (poisoning) talons, poison volatile/hardened and scaling of highest stat. (Again, kind of needs to stay mag for utility) stam inhale, and maybe even stam molten whip, but that doesn't mean leave the mag variant behind because current meta has mag over stam. Duels a MDK has always been very strong, though its a little less now since dodgable lash, its OW where the problem lies. StamDK is also pretty OK in duels, with the defile and wear down duel meta. (Nbs with duroks etc)Edited by ak_pvp on April 23, 2018 9:53PMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@ak_pvp
Wings are a utility and the comparison between what needs what is pretty much hearsay. Stam DK may use fossilize and volatile armor but they do not use it consistently so that also compares to shuffle. We use shuffle but are we sitting there spamming it... well no. We get rid of our snare and keep moving, if we're snared again then we may not use it since we need Stamina to fight an enemy.
Touching back on the utility thing, I would like it to be Magicka but then when I see that Mag DK is going to be able to now negate long range play as many players tend to snare and distance them... yeah you can see how that is definitely not balanced.
You can compare shimmering shield to the wings but no you cannot compare it completely because warden IS NOT A LOCKDOWN CLASS. I don't understand why you tried to strawman me there but ok.
Warden isn't running around Hard/Soft Ccing opponents with a snare up time near 100%.
On the balance comment Mag DK had a significant edge over Stam DK I mean if you don't see that then I'm not sure how. Even if they supposedly got weaker each patch, Stam continued to suffer so you would add this ability to make it even stronger to negate long range counter play even though they preform way better than Stam DK in PvP... Interesting.
You went back to the random build comment please refer to my signature about that.
Stam DK does not need poison talon, nor do they need a volatile/hard scale. They also do not need a stam inhale or a stam whip. OW Mag DK preforms pretty solid too and even better than Stam DK because OW is filled with plenty of LoS to lockdown opponents (key word opponents), OW is all about facing more than one target. On a Stam DK you need to be considerably skilled to do that but as a Mag DK you have talons and snares that help lockdown multiple targets and proc healing from embers/lash. I play a Mag DK too*
Utility that provides immunity to snares needs to be a Stamina one not because it'll buff Stamina DK because our pool is bigger, but for the simple fact that the Mag variant is again a lockdown class and removing counter-play from a strong PvP class is ridiculous.不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell1 -
Passifest✭✭✭✭Combustion sustain should not be tied to status effects due to unreliablity. As others have said just make it tied to ability usage.1 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Combustion passive is fine; I tested it both for Mag/Stam DK, you can literally proc the passive if you have poison inject slotted as a Stam DK so that'll be something you always use in PvE but I haven't seen its proc ratio with venom/nox breath. Mag DK you can easily proc it with fiery breath and all of the other ardent skills/blockade,etc不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell1 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If anything they could change elder dragon to have a better supportive passive by blanket reducing the cost of Dragon Knight skills by x amount instead of promoting a useless stat i.e health recovery.不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell1 -
Kronuxx✭✭✭✭I want wing immunity to last 4 seconds or as long as the ability lasts but it needs to be stamina and cost around 2500-3500 or the same exact costs as the magicka one just with it costing stamina instead. Reasoning is it'll remove one of the counters to Mag DK if it remains magicka i.e roots/snares.
I could see it going both ways but I do believe it's better fit as a utility skill costing magicka though. If it went the stamina route, it should probably be dropped to about the same price as shuffle which is about 3400 stamina. Still costing a decent amount of stamina where it can't be spammed, but just enough where it won't render itself useless like Immovable Brute/Unstoppable. Remember those heavy armor skills? The ones that nobody still use because of their high stamina cost, despite ZOS decreasing their stamina cost? Yeah...let's not go that route with Reflective Plate.Edited by Kronuxx on April 24, 2018 12:30AM2 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Combustion passive is fine; I tested it both for Mag/Stam DK, you can literally proc the passive if you have poison inject slotted as a Stam DK so that'll be something you always use in PvE but I haven't seen its proc ratio with venom/nox breath. Mag DK you can easily proc it with fiery breath and all of the other ardent skills/blockade,etc
the main issue is how reliable it would be in PvP , not PvE.
For PvE it will provide good sustain since in PvE you will be using noxious,claws,poison inject. 3 poison dots , and those will make sure it procs every 5 seconds considering mobs and bosses have no immunity against the poisoned status effect.
in PvP there are tons of ways to prevent the poisoned proc, like shields,cloak, racial resistances, or a simple poison/disease resist glyph.Edited by Ragnarock41 on April 24, 2018 2:00AM2 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Ragnarock41
In PvP it procs pretty good for both Mag/Stam DK. Mag DK procs a lot using burning embers alone but when I coupled it with fiery breath it worked pretty nicely. Stam DK I only used inject but even then it was pretty nice.不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell1