PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance

Abysswarrior45 · April 2018

Stam dk needs a stam whip... still. Just want to keep saying that. All this talk of mag dk abilities who are in a better spot than stam dks open world at this point. I play and main them both, its much easier to 1vX on mag dk that stam dk currently. Dizzy swing is unreliable as a spammable and useless in the slightest amount of lag. Ransack is garbage against mag chars whom know how to keep shields up. Stam dk is struggling at open world PvP more so than mag dk. They can only permablock better.

Dragath · April 2018

exeeter702 wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

MyKillv2.0 wrote: »

DK Skill Changes Thoughts... (just my thoughts, whatever)

Cauterize (Inferno morph): Nice for the increased range but the heal is still rather weak. I would much rather have the massive burst heal be from this skill or the heal be reduced to every three seconds. Either or I think would do the trick. However in it's current state the heal it too little and too long a wait.

Idk about you but a heal that easilu crits for 7k in pvp and 16k in pve in trials, for under 2k magicka is not weak and that isnt even considering how easy it is for dks to augment on demand heals with major mending. The wait factor is also entirely redundant since you hit the ability at any point and it will immediately fire the heal. Remaining passively active to spot heal while you are doing other actions is the additional perk. Just for comparison....

Again there are way too many people putting this under the lense of how it effects certain dk specs that these skills arent even designed for. Cauterize is very good and the 28 meter buff along with the significant projectile speed buff it recently received will make this a very formidable healing ability.

i'm curoius, what were your stats and buffs for the cauterize tooltip?
because using the same stats on templar and magdk leaves me with a 11k tooltip on breath of life and a 6,2k tooltip on cauterize. either those two screenshots were taken with a totally different setup that is vastly biased or something else is going on.
would like to know whats the issue here.

Just for clarity...

Active buffs and effects that effect tool tip

SPC 5 piece
Major Sorcery
Minor Sorcery Templar in group
2% healing done monster set
2% healing done Jorvuld's
9% healing done Powered Resto staff
Ritual Mundus
5% healing done Argonian passive
14% healing done 75 pts in blessed
Major mending for the cauterize tool tip
Minor mending for the BOL tool tip

ah, thank you.
minor mending for BOL and major mending for Cauterize.
so when both have the same buffs, BOL is leagues ahead in raw healing power.
really was wondering why my own tooltips were so different from yours.
so the first tooltips you posted were extremely biased.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

MyKillv2.0 wrote: »

DK Skill Changes Thoughts... (just my thoughts, whatever)

Cauterize (Inferno morph): Nice for the increased range but the heal is still rather weak. I would much rather have the massive burst heal be from this skill or the heal be reduced to every three seconds. Either or I think would do the trick. However in it's current state the heal it too little and too long a wait.

Idk about you but a heal that easilu crits for 7k in pvp and 16k in pve in trials, for under 2k magicka is not weak and that isnt even considering how easy it is for dks to augment on demand heals with major mending. The wait factor is also entirely redundant since you hit the ability at any point and it will immediately fire the heal. Remaining passively active to spot heal while you are doing other actions is the additional perk. Just for comparison....

Again there are way too many people putting this under the lense of how it effects certain dk specs that these skills arent even designed for. Cauterize is very good and the 28 meter buff along with the significant projectile speed buff it recently received will make this a very formidable healing ability.

i'm curoius, what were your stats and buffs for the cauterize tooltip?
because using the same stats on templar and magdk leaves me with a 11k tooltip on breath of life and a 6,2k tooltip on cauterize. either those two screenshots were taken with a totally different setup that is vastly biased or something else is going on.
would like to know whats the issue here.

Just for clarity...

Active buffs and effects that effect tool tip

SPC 5 piece
Major Sorcery
Minor Sorcery Templar in group
2% healing done monster set
2% healing done Jorvuld's
9% healing done Powered Resto staff
Ritual Mundus
5% healing done Argonian passive
14% healing done 75 pts in blessed
Major mending for the cauterize tool tip
Minor mending for the BOL tool tip

ah, thank you.
minor mending for BOL and major mending for Cauterize.
so when both have the same buffs, BOL is leagues ahead in raw healing power.
really was wondering why my own tooltips were so different from yours.
so the first tooltips you posted were extremely biased.

Leagues is an overstatement, especially considering the price of each spell. And the only time templar will have major is if they charge a full resto before casting BOL, which is generally not the case since BOL is only used on reaction to damage spikes, whereas DK has Major Mending on command at any second and usually has it up at all times.

its not an overstatement, and if you talk about cost, include the cost that is needed for a dk to get major mending and also include what a templar get additionally to minor mending (huge amounts of mag regen).
if you compare the number with the same buffs, include the costs of those abilities that give minor/major mending, the difference is leagues.
but i'm not going to change your opinion, you showed how biased you are when you posted the totally misleading tooltips.
since this is all offtopic, i'd like to add something:
it was talked about making cauterize an aoe pulse during the visit, and its on the list of possible changes, but is most likely not going into summerset, if it will be changed.
the 73k mdk parse was done by gilliam, which also was the highest parse done in the event. he also did the second highest parse during the event with a stamina nightblade, same circumstances, with 72,3k (or 72,5k, don't remember exactly) dps.

Carbonised · April 2018

My thoughts about mDK changes pretty much echoes what has been said in this thread and in a million DK threads already.

- Inferno and FoO back to a playerbased AoE that gradually deals higher and higher damage in pulses. Can be either timed or infinite but costing increasing magicka to hold active per tick. Cauterize can stay as it is now, single target burst heal, or be converted into a playerbased HoT with short range, or pulse, which is much more DK-esque

- Elder Dragon really needs reworking. Don't care what you do, but at least make it good. Right now it's not even worth the 2 skill points

- Ash Storm / Eruption / Cinder Storm - Eruption morph deals too little too slow damage for the cost. Needs to be a better class AoE DoT, all other class AoE DoTs are vastly better than this, and cost less. Make Eruption the damage oriented morph, make Cinder the defensive oriented, and slap a party minor evasion on it instead of the snare

- Wings need snare immunity. Not really debatable

- Inhale. Keep deep breath interrupt since it's somewhat unique, but Draw Essence morph is unappealing. As well as giving back mag per target as it does now, it should be increased a small amount in damage over deep breath. The mag return in itself is both capped and lackluster, not to mention delayed from when you click the ability

- Whip. Power lash would preferably be undodgeable. You can already dodge the initial Flame Whip as well as deal with the required CC. That's enough counters, and the power lash is already on a cooldown, making it undodgeable is a small helping hand. Molten Whip needs a buff, the current buff to spell damage is very minimal. I'd up it by 50 % more or so.

- We need to talk about DoTs. DK has all the drawback of DoTs, that includes slow damage that can be outhealed/outshielded, have to be applied in melee range which is a large drawback, and finally can be removed by several skills instantly. All other serious MMOs deploy mechanisms where DoT removal is either more difficult or carries a risk, such as the full DoT damage or half the DoT damage going off instantly. DK DoTs need passives that make them more of a threat, for instance burst damage and/or debuffs when they are purged. Right now you can simply remove 5 DoTs with 1 click of a button and laugh in the DKs face

- A passive that grants the DK DoTs higher damage when target is under 25 % health could serve as our de facto execute. DoTs aren't taken seriously, they have too many counters and are too easy to deal with. Have DoTs scale in damage the lower the health is on the target, via a passive

VaxtinTheWolf · April 2018

I've been lurking and have an idea for Burning embers.

Perhaps rename it to Unstable Flame, which was lost some time ago, and have it keep it's current effect but if that ability is purged, apply stored amount of healing to the Dragonknight, and any damage that has not yet been dealt from the ability is dealt in a burst to the target.

I was thinking it could help them in PvP situations at least.

exeeter702 · April 2018

Dragath wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

MyKillv2.0 wrote: »

DK Skill Changes Thoughts... (just my thoughts, whatever)

Cauterize (Inferno morph): Nice for the increased range but the heal is still rather weak. I would much rather have the massive burst heal be from this skill or the heal be reduced to every three seconds. Either or I think would do the trick. However in it's current state the heal it too little and too long a wait.

Idk about you but a heal that easilu crits for 7k in pvp and 16k in pve in trials, for under 2k magicka is not weak and that isnt even considering how easy it is for dks to augment on demand heals with major mending. The wait factor is also entirely redundant since you hit the ability at any point and it will immediately fire the heal. Remaining passively active to spot heal while you are doing other actions is the additional perk. Just for comparison....

Again there are way too many people putting this under the lense of how it effects certain dk specs that these skills arent even designed for. Cauterize is very good and the 28 meter buff along with the significant projectile speed buff it recently received will make this a very formidable healing ability.

i'm curoius, what were your stats and buffs for the cauterize tooltip?
because using the same stats on templar and magdk leaves me with a 11k tooltip on breath of life and a 6,2k tooltip on cauterize. either those two screenshots were taken with a totally different setup that is vastly biased or something else is going on.
would like to know whats the issue here.

Just for clarity...

Active buffs and effects that effect tool tip

SPC 5 piece
Major Sorcery
Minor Sorcery Templar in group
2% healing done monster set
2% healing done Jorvuld's
9% healing done Powered Resto staff
Ritual Mundus
5% healing done Argonian passive
14% healing done 75 pts in blessed
Major mending for the cauterize tool tip
Minor mending for the BOL tool tip

ah, thank you.
minor mending for BOL and major mending for Cauterize.
so when both have the same buffs, BOL is leagues ahead in raw healing power.
really was wondering why my own tooltips were so different from yours.
so the first tooltips you posted were extremely biased.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

MyKillv2.0 wrote: »

DK Skill Changes Thoughts... (just my thoughts, whatever)

Cauterize (Inferno morph): Nice for the increased range but the heal is still rather weak. I would much rather have the massive burst heal be from this skill or the heal be reduced to every three seconds. Either or I think would do the trick. However in it's current state the heal it too little and too long a wait.

Idk about you but a heal that easilu crits for 7k in pvp and 16k in pve in trials, for under 2k magicka is not weak and that isnt even considering how easy it is for dks to augment on demand heals with major mending. The wait factor is also entirely redundant since you hit the ability at any point and it will immediately fire the heal. Remaining passively active to spot heal while you are doing other actions is the additional perk. Just for comparison....

Again there are way too many people putting this under the lense of how it effects certain dk specs that these skills arent even designed for. Cauterize is very good and the 28 meter buff along with the significant projectile speed buff it recently received will make this a very formidable healing ability.

i'm curoius, what were your stats and buffs for the cauterize tooltip?
because using the same stats on templar and magdk leaves me with a 11k tooltip on breath of life and a 6,2k tooltip on cauterize. either those two screenshots were taken with a totally different setup that is vastly biased or something else is going on.
would like to know whats the issue here.

Just for clarity...

Active buffs and effects that effect tool tip

SPC 5 piece
Major Sorcery
Minor Sorcery Templar in group
2% healing done monster set
2% healing done Jorvuld's
9% healing done Powered Resto staff
Ritual Mundus
5% healing done Argonian passive
14% healing done 75 pts in blessed
Major mending for the cauterize tool tip
Minor mending for the BOL tool tip

ah, thank you.
minor mending for BOL and major mending for Cauterize.
so when both have the same buffs, BOL is leagues ahead in raw healing power.
really was wondering why my own tooltips were so different from yours.
so the first tooltips you posted were extremely biased.

Leagues is an overstatement, especially considering the price of each spell. And the only time templar will have major is if they charge a full resto before casting BOL, which is generally not the case since BOL is only used on reaction to damage spikes, whereas DK has Major Mending on command at any second and usually has it up at all times.

its not an overstatement, and if you talk about cost, include the cost that is needed for a dk to get major mending and also include what a templar get additionally to minor mending (huge amounts of mag regen).
if you compare the number with the same buffs, include the costs of those abilities that give minor/major mending, the difference is leagues.
but i'm not going to change your opinion, you showed how biased you are when you posted the totally misleading tooltips.

Calm down, it is not biased. Im not talking about class functionality in regards to regen or core playability, those are entirely separate points. Im not pitting dk healers against templar healers and using cauterize vs bol as the poster to child to my argument.

The comparison was made exclusively to show that cauterize is by far not a weak skill, and in practical use is not nearly as disfunctional or unreliable as many claim, especially for a skill that heals close to what BOL does.

I reduced the comparison down to its core. The reason you dont include major mending cost is because DK healers play with major mending up at all times as part of their general gameplan, regardless of whether or not they decide to slot cauterize, just as much as templar slots the necessary spell to maintain sacred ground passive for minor mending upkeep which you shouldnt consider as well. And that goes into a discussion of how well DK healers can sustain, which is a seperate discussion. The tooltips are not misleading, they are absolutely within practical terms. Clearly ive struck a nerve, but nothing ive posted is biased or fueled by some agenda or subjective opinion.

MaxwellC · April 2018

@BohnT
I would also suggest changing battle roar to scale with your max stat i.e when using an ultimate that is 100+ you regain 25% of your max resources, when using an ultimate that is 200+ you regain 50% of your max resources.

I feel it may be op but what do you feel about that idea?

Altaryan · April 2018

PvE Stam DK player here. My top parse on live server with Lover/TFS/Kragh is at 43.5k on 3M and 42.7 on 6M (solo buffed).

My first tests on PTS with the same traits on jewelry have been very bad. I was at around 40k+ with the exact same gear and rotation.
The difference is mainly due to the damage ratio of HA which is a huge nerf for Stam DK.
I also tried an Acuity/TFS parse with bloodthirsty jewelry which made a max parse of 44.7k on a 6M dummy and a consistent 43.5k+.
This is not bad, obviously, but the difference I had compared to some guildmates is really low (+2k DPS compared to 5k+ on Stam NB).

My concern is that even if Stam DK will still be able to pull a reasonable DPS is PvE they will be outshined by far by other classes, especially nightblades with their LA rotation.

What could be done about that :
- Reduce the damage loss of HA so HA rotations can compete with LA ones (currently, only NB I think are able to fully sustain a LA rotation).
- Give DK a stamina spamable/execute so we can compete with other classes and maybe have a less HA driven rotation.

Edit: I still have to test the new Sunderflame. I did just a little bit and it is clearly not enough in term of solo DPS compared to before. The DPS provided by Sunderflame with a 4HA rotation is 1k which is not very important, but maybe there is something to do here.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Altaryan wrote: »

PvE Stam DK player here. My top parse on live server with Lover/TFS/Kragh is at 43.5k on 3M and 42.7 on 6M (solo buffed).

My first tests on PTS with the same traits on jewelry have been very bad. I was at around 40k+ with the exact same gear and rotation.
The difference is mainly due to the damage ratio of HA which is a huge nerf for Stam DK.
I also tried an Acuity/TFS parse with bloodthirsty jewelry which made a max parse of 44.7k on a 6M dummy and a consistent 43.5k+.
This is not bad, obviously, but the difference I had compared to some guildmates is really low (+2k DPS compared to 5k+ on Stam NB).

My concern is that even if Stam DK will still be able to pull a reasonable DPS is PvE they will be outshined by far by other classes, especially nightblades with their LA rotation.

What could be done about that :
- Reduce the damage loss of HA so HA rotations can compete with LA ones (currently, only NB I think are able to fully sustain a LA rotation).
- Give DK a stamina spamable/execute so we can compete with other classes and maybe have a less HA driven rotation.

Edit: I still have to test the new Sunderflame. I did just a little bit and it is clearly not enough in term of solo DPS compared to before. The DPS provided by Sunderflame with a 4HA rotation is 1k which is not very important, but maybe there is something to do here.

Good points there, but heavy attacks are boring in PvE, and easily counterable in PvP, so I would suggets giving this class actual toys instead of messing with heavy attacks. I agree with your second suggestion. StamDK needs a less heavy attack oriented rotation, for that they do need some new toys though.

I believe igneous weapons could easily reworked into a poison themed ability, something like ''poisoned weapons'' or something like that , enchanting our light attacks with poison damage on hit.(could work similar to poisonous serpent set, and could scale with weapon damage-max stamina to prevent tanks from using it in PvP.

Could also work like a dot instead of instant damage, and do scaling damage on your each hit, such an ability would have amazing synergy with flurry, doing amazing pressure. This by itself would give sDks great flexibility in both pve and pvp. And the best part about this, is that this change would force stamDks into choosing between heavy attack rotations with molten or more active rotations with the new and improved igneous.

The class has enough room for creativity. Simply comparing igneous weapons to warden netch and crit surge, shows me that it has great potential to become a cornerstone ability for stamDk.

Altaryan · April 2018

Well you find them boring. I prefer HA rotations than LA ones but it's a personal preference I guess...(mainly due to lag and FPS problem in trials for me).

It's true that giving some tools to Stam DK to have a LA rotation viable could be a solution, but we'd need to change the rotation entirely and probably change the "flavor" of Stam DK : stacking dots.

Edit : I absolutely agree with your other suggestions.

JumpmanLane · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Altaryan wrote: »

PvE Stam DK player here. My top parse on live server with Lover/TFS/Kragh is at 43.5k on 3M and 42.7 on 6M (solo buffed).

My first tests on PTS with the same traits on jewelry have been very bad. I was at around 40k+ with the exact same gear and rotation.
The difference is mainly due to the damage ratio of HA which is a huge nerf for Stam DK.
I also tried an Acuity/TFS parse with bloodthirsty jewelry which made a max parse of 44.7k on a 6M dummy and a consistent 43.5k+.
This is not bad, obviously, but the difference I had compared to some guildmates is really low (+2k DPS compared to 5k+ on Stam NB).

My concern is that even if Stam DK will still be able to pull a reasonable DPS is PvE they will be outshined by far by other classes, especially nightblades with their LA rotation.

What could be done about that :
- Reduce the damage loss of HA so HA rotations can compete with LA ones (currently, only NB I think are able to fully sustain a LA rotation).
- Give DK a stamina spamable/execute so we can compete with other classes and maybe have a less HA driven rotation.

Edit: I still have to test the new Sunderflame. I did just a little bit and it is clearly not enough in term of solo DPS compared to before. The DPS provided by Sunderflame with a 4HA rotation is 1k which is not very important, but maybe there is something to do here.

Good points there, but heavy attacks are boring in PvE, and easily counterable in PvP, so I would suggets giving this class actual toys instead of messing with heavy attacks. I agree with your second suggestion. StamDK needs a less heavy attack oriented rotation, for that they do need some new toys though.

I believe igneous weapons could easily reworked into a poison themed ability, something like ''poisoned weapons'' or something like that , enchanting our light attacks with poison damage on hit.(could work similar to poisonous serpent set, and could scale with weapon damage-max stamina to prevent tanks from using it in PvP.

Could also work like a dot instead of instant damage, and do scaling damage on your each hit, such an ability would have amazing synergy with flurry, doing amazing pressure. This by itself would give sDks great flexibility in both pve and pvp. And the best part about this, is that this change would force stamDks into choosing between heavy attack rotations with molten or more active rotations with the new and improved igneous.

The class has enough room for creativity. Simply comparing igneous weapons to warden netch and crit surge, shows me that it has great potential to become a cornerstone ability for stamDk.

Wearing Spawn of Mephala heavy attacks most certainly are NOT boring. In PVE. Add molten armaments and it’s a pretty decent bit of rotation as long as the NPCs don’t run out of it. Obsidian Shard or Invigorating Drain (vamp) and they don’t. Add the sustain benefits one is nuts to not use heavy attack.

However in PVP, the enemy is long gone by the time you can line up a 2H heavy. I PvPed a bit just for lulz last night (didn’t stop by the bank to pick up siege, didn’t swap my skills used DW instead of 2H, just tarded about). I killed a bunch of people BUT it wasn’t with those daggers hehehehe. StamDK NEEDS a 2H spammable.

Just a random question. Anybody ever pop 100 cp into Pen and use DW anyway? I’ve seen Krotha’s build but I’m averse to sword and board back bar.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

when fighting a half competent opponent, there is a %50 chance your heavy attack will be interrupted, dodged,blocked, absorbed by cloak etc. and It leaves you defenceless to incoming attacks. TL:DR, heavy attacks are used for sustaining in PvP , not for damage.

Krotha uses mainly bleeds to melt people. Heavies are just there to help him sustain, and add the last bit of pressure he needs to finish off foes. And keep in mind dual wield heavies are very fast compared to everything else.

As much as I hate it, dizzying swing is your bread and butter as a stamDK, if you want the shortest way of killing people. Its unreliable, costs a lot, easily counterable, but it is a spammable, and is a lot more effective than just heavy attacking with molten.

JumpmanLane · April 2018

Yeah I know DW heavies are Quick, folks just stand there and eat mine tho lol. I’ve leveled dizzying swing but can’t slot it. front bar is venemous claw, reverse slash, Crit rush, elusive mist, and invigorating drain. DK dunk. Back bar is lethal arrow, volatile armor, molten armaments, resolving vigor, igneous shield, and Corrosive Armor.

I run 2x Blood Spawn, 5x 7th Legion, 3x agility. I’m gonna give Krotha another look. Thanks man.

Integral1900 · April 2018

Savos_Saren wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Integral1900
That 73k number is indeed mythical as I believe it came from the streamers who visited ZOS and they stated it was during a dev server where they had 100% raid buff up-time. So I'm sure they went with Max magicka/max magicka regen food (another unrealistic thing to do in end game content) along with 100% raid buffs I could see that.

This is also ignoring the setup because if they used infused on jewelry... well there's a glitch with infused giving unrealistic numbers e.g. the video showing one guy literally bash and had a parse of 37k.

It is a hilarious video, though. The music is on point!

Found the video, I almost died laughing

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Yeah I know DW heavies are Quick, folks just stand there and eat mine tho lol. I’ve leveled dizzying swing but can’t slot it. front bar is venemous claw, reverse slash, Crit rush, elusive mist, and invigorating drain. DK dunk. Back bar is lethal arrow, volatile armor, molten armaments, resolving vigor, igneous shield, and Corrosive Armor.

I run 2x Blood Spawn, 5x 7th Legion, 3x agility. I’m gonna give Krotha another look. Thanks man.

Well if you choose to roll with lethal arrow you don't need another spammable either way. I personally find most of those abilities a waste of skill slot. But thats personal preference after all. If you want a half spammable-half cleave, try to get your hands on master 2h. It turns brawler into a spammable.

One other ability you might want to consider, is poison injection. Its half dot-half execute, and its argueably the strongest bow ability because of that.

Also Krotha still streams regularly, you might want to check his twitch if you want to see his build in action.

BohnT · April 2018

MaxwellC wrote: »

@BohnT
I would also suggest changing battle roar to scale with your max stat i.e when using an ultimate that is 100+ you regain 25% of your max resources, when using an ultimate that is 200+ you regain 50% of your max resources.

I feel it may be op but what do you feel about that idea?

I think the current battle roar has something over the old one and that is that you get so much resources back for your off stat.
Also increasing the return on the individual usage might have a bad influence as you are forced to spam your ultimate to get decent sustain.
I'd like it more to increase the ultimate Regeneration of DKs so you aren't as punished for spamming ultimates as we are right now due to the lowest ultigen in the game for all classes

ecru · April 2018

Carbonised wrote: »

My thoughts about mDK changes pretty much echoes what has been said in this thread and in a million DK threads already.

- We need to talk about DoTs. DK has all the drawback of DoTs, that includes slow damage that can be outhealed/outshielded, have to be applied in melee range which is a large drawback, and finally can be removed by several skills instantly. All other serious MMOs deploy mechanisms where DoT removal is either more difficult or carries a risk, such as the full DoT damage or half the DoT damage going off instantly. DK DoTs need passives that make them more of a threat, for instance burst damage and/or debuffs when they are purged. Right now you can simply remove 5 DoTs with 1 click of a button and laugh in the DKs face

- A passive that grants the DK DoTs higher damage when target is under 25 % health could serve as our de facto execute. DoTs aren't taken seriously, they have too many counters and are too easy to deal with. Have DoTs scale in damage the lower the health is on the target, via a passive

This please. One of the reasons I gave up on pvp initially with my DK was the ease at which dots just vanish from my targets. DoT damage being mitigated this easily is not a mechanic present in other games, and being able to backload damage with powerful dots would give DK some unique class identity that would set it apart. 100% agree with some kind of execute portion of dots too, or some kind of execute in general to take advantage of bloodthirsty.

Altaryan wrote: »

PvE Stam DK player here. My top parse on live server with Lover/TFS/Kragh is at 43.5k on 3M and 42.7 on 6M (solo buffed).

My first tests on PTS with the same traits on jewelry have been very bad. I was at around 40k+ with the exact same gear and rotation.
The difference is mainly due to the damage ratio of HA which is a huge nerf for Stam DK.
I also tried an Acuity/TFS parse with bloodthirsty jewelry which made a max parse of 44.7k on a 6M dummy and a consistent 43.5k+.
This is not bad, obviously, but the difference I had compared to some guildmates is really low (+2k DPS compared to 5k+ on Stam NB).

My concern is that even if Stam DK will still be able to pull a reasonable DPS is PvE they will be outshined by far by other classes, especially nightblades with their LA rotation.

What could be done about that :
- Reduce the damage loss of HA so HA rotations can compete with LA ones (currently, only NB I think are able to fully sustain a LA rotation).
- Give DK a stamina spamable/execute so we can compete with other classes and maybe have a less HA driven rotation.

Edit: I still have to test the new Sunderflame. I did just a little bit and it is clearly not enough in term of solo DPS compared to before. The DPS provided by Sunderflame with a 4HA rotation is 1k which is not very important, but maybe there is something to do here.

Good post, I've been seeing about the same numbers (roughly 42k) with Lover/TFS/Leviathan (with Veli, not Kragh) and two daggers, just for fun to see how viable that much passive crit was. Acuity may be slightly better, but my PTS copy doesn't have acuity and getting gear together on PTS is kind of a pain in the ass. Haven't done any parses with bloodthirsty yet though. My experiences with Sunder were also the same, ~1100dps from the proc with a 4HA rotation, which is underwhelming to say the least.

The nerf to DW HA sucks. Sustain with Leviathan or Acuity requires a good amount of heavy attacks compared to running VO, and I found myself starving a lot during vet cloudrest, especially due to the target switching/bosses who can't stay still during the trial. I agree with you, I don't see a good reason for this nerf and it especially hurts StamDK IMO, why not just revert it? Better DW heavy attacks would also make Sunder more viable when needed by the group, which would give StamDK a small niche to fill.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

ecru wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

My thoughts about mDK changes pretty much echoes what has been said in this thread and in a million DK threads already.

- We need to talk about DoTs. DK has all the drawback of DoTs, that includes slow damage that can be outhealed/outshielded, have to be applied in melee range which is a large drawback, and finally can be removed by several skills instantly. All other serious MMOs deploy mechanisms where DoT removal is either more difficult or carries a risk, such as the full DoT damage or half the DoT damage going off instantly. DK DoTs need passives that make them more of a threat, for instance burst damage and/or debuffs when they are purged. Right now you can simply remove 5 DoTs with 1 click of a button and laugh in the DKs face

- A passive that grants the DK DoTs higher damage when target is under 25 % health could serve as our de facto execute. DoTs aren't taken seriously, they have too many counters and are too easy to deal with. Have DoTs scale in damage the lower the health is on the target, via a passive

This please. One of the reasons I gave up on pvp initially with my DK was the ease at which dots just vanish from my targets. DoT damage being mitigated this easily is not a mechanic present in other games, and being able to backload damage with powerful dots would give DK some unique class identity that would set it apart. 100% agree with some kind of execute portion of dots too, or some kind of execute in general to take advantage of bloodthirsty.

the main issue with DK dots is that they are mainly outperformed by bleeds. Dots having counterplay is fine. but the dot class having weakest dots isn't. Dks are supposed to be the main dot class yet they are outperformed by well.. literally everyone else with a bleed.

JumpmanLane · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Yeah I know DW heavies are Quick, folks just stand there and eat mine tho lol. I’ve leveled dizzying swing but can’t slot it. front bar is venemous claw, reverse slash, Crit rush, elusive mist, and invigorating drain. DK dunk. Back bar is lethal arrow, volatile armor, molten armaments, resolving vigor, igneous shield, and Corrosive Armor.

I run 2x Blood Spawn, 5x 7th Legion, 3x agility. I’m gonna give Krotha another look. Thanks man.

Well if you choose to roll with lethal arrow you don't need another spammable either way. I personally find most of those abilities a waste of skill slot. But thats personal preference after all. If you want a half spammable-half cleave, try to get your hands on master 2h. It turns brawler into a spammable.

One other ability you might want to consider, is poison injection. Its half dot-half execute, and its argueably the strongest bow ability because of that.

Also Krotha still streams regularly, you might want to check his twitch if you want to see his build in action.

Hey thanks a bunch for the advice. I FIND most of those skills a waste of slots lol. I can kill stuff but the whole 2H set up seems clunky and kind of off to me. I even rolled a stamblade for PvP because DW is so much fun in PVE with a StamDK. But, I’m too lazy to level up the NB and I LIKE my DK

I got poison injection and use it for PVE. I swap it out for PvP for Lethal Arrow for the range. I even use bow attacks as a spammable (guess I’m a bow tard). I use Stam ravaging poisons and oddly enough I kill a lot of StamDK and Stamplars like that followed by StamNBs according to kill counter.

Krotha is definitely worth another look, a closer look. If it’s a matter off skill I’ll just tard about until I git good with it. I got three really good buddies I run dungeons with and farm gear with so I’ll go after a masters 2H. Thanks again for the pointers.

The weird thing is a StamDKs playstyle is completely different in PvE than PvP and if I want to play the same way (DW ,High damage) in PvP as in pve I might as well be a stamblade. I’m gonna see if I can rework Krotha’s build and Xnode’s Fury build into something, maybe drop 2H all together.

My whole thing is I set them up with the bow, Stam ravaging poisons, Crit rush even venemous claw. If they aren’t ready for the reverse slice execute and DK dunk ain’t up, I just keep reverse slicing, Crit rushing as they try to run away and heal and eventually they die from a reverse slice. It just seems clunky and sloppy. They die but it’s hardly elegant lol.

Zophix · April 2018

Can we consider having at least one of the DK's dots un-cleansable? Something like Burning Embers/ Venomous Claw or Engulfing Flames/ Noxious Breath.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Yeah I know DW heavies are Quick, folks just stand there and eat mine tho lol. I’ve leveled dizzying swing but can’t slot it. front bar is venemous claw, reverse slash, Crit rush, elusive mist, and invigorating drain. DK dunk. Back bar is lethal arrow, volatile armor, molten armaments, resolving vigor, igneous shield, and Corrosive Armor.

I run 2x Blood Spawn, 5x 7th Legion, 3x agility. I’m gonna give Krotha another look. Thanks man.

Well if you choose to roll with lethal arrow you don't need another spammable either way. I personally find most of those abilities a waste of skill slot. But thats personal preference after all. If you want a half spammable-half cleave, try to get your hands on master 2h. It turns brawler into a spammable.

One other ability you might want to consider, is poison injection. Its half dot-half execute, and its argueably the strongest bow ability because of that.

Also Krotha still streams regularly, you might want to check his twitch if you want to see his build in action.

Hey thanks a bunch for the advice. I FIND most of those skills a waste of slots lol. I can kill stuff but the whole 2H set up seems clunky and kind of off to me. I even rolled a stamblade for PvP because DW is so much fun in PVE with a StamDK. But, I’m too lazy to level up the NB and I LIKE my DK

I got poison injection and use it for PVE. I swap it out for PvP for Lethal Arrow for the range. I even use bow attacks as a spammable (guess I’m a bow tard). I use Stam ravaging poisons and oddly enough I kill a lot of StamDK and Stamplars like that followed by StamNBs according to kill counter.

Krotha is definitely worth another look, a closer look. If it’s a matter off skill I’ll just tard about until I git good with it. I got three really good buddies I run dungeons with and farm gear with so I’ll go after a masters 2H. Thanks again for the pointers.

The weird thing is a StamDKs playstyle is completely different in PvE than PvP and if I want to play the same way (DW ,High damage) in PvP as in pve I might as well be a stamblade. I’m gonna see if I can rework Krotha’s build and Xnode’s Fury build into something, maybe drop 2H all together.

My whole thing is I set them up with the bow, Stam ravaging poisons, Crit rush even venemous claw. If they aren’t ready for the reverse slice execute and DK dunk ain’t up, I just keep reverse slicing, Crit rushing as they try to run away and heal and eventually they die from a reverse slice. It just seems clunky and sloppy. They die but it’s hardly elegant lol.

to be real, if you like dual wield and you still want fire themed class, go magDK with Dual wield front bar. Trust me, It is like 10 times better than stamDk dual wield, due to the fact that you can have a bar full of class abilities as a magDK and still benefit from dual wield passives.
Its not the best thing ever, but it is playable.

Krotha · April 2018

I've only played a Orc Stam DK for 4 years. I love it.

Here are some changes I'd like to see to Stam DK to open up more build varieties:

- Stamina Cost CC <--- biggest thing to rebuild DKs imo
- One Stamina Cost Draconic Power Ability (specifically talons)
- Noxious breath increases poison dmg similar to engulfing flames.
- Reapplying venomous claw on a target provides a burst damage equivalent to the dmg done on that target (think like how
Rally applies a burst heal, this could be the solution that every stam DK wants for a class execute.
- OR venomous claw heals based on dmg done to target just like burning embers
- OR venomous claw becomes unpurgeable so that the entire damage duration buff increase actually applies to a target
before being purged.
- Corrosive Armor and Standard need their ultimate cost reduced. Corrosive 175. Standard back to 200.
- Fix Take Flight. Fix Take Flight. Fix Take Flight.
- And for the love of all that is holy reduce the magicka cost of earthern heart abilities.

Stamina DK will be fine next patch. Expect to see many more SB/2H builds. I will keep the DW/2H playstyle alive.

JumpmanLane · April 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Yeah I know DW heavies are Quick, folks just stand there and eat mine tho lol. I’ve leveled dizzying swing but can’t slot it. front bar is venemous claw, reverse slash, Crit rush, elusive mist, and invigorating drain. DK dunk. Back bar is lethal arrow, volatile armor, molten armaments, resolving vigor, igneous shield, and Corrosive Armor.

I run 2x Blood Spawn, 5x 7th Legion, 3x agility. I’m gonna give Krotha another look. Thanks man.

Well if you choose to roll with lethal arrow you don't need another spammable either way. I personally find most of those abilities a waste of skill slot. But thats personal preference after all. If you want a half spammable-half cleave, try to get your hands on master 2h. It turns brawler into a spammable.

One other ability you might want to consider, is poison injection. Its half dot-half execute, and its argueably the strongest bow ability because of that.

Also Krotha still streams regularly, you might want to check his twitch if you want to see his build in action.

Hey thanks a bunch for the advice. I FIND most of those skills a waste of slots lol. I can kill stuff but the whole 2H set up seems clunky and kind of off to me. I even rolled a stamblade for PvP because DW is so much fun in PVE with a StamDK. But, I’m too lazy to level up the NB and I LIKE my DK

I got poison injection and use it for PVE. I swap it out for PvP for Lethal Arrow for the range. I even use bow attacks as a spammable (guess I’m a bow tard). I use Stam ravaging poisons and oddly enough I kill a lot of StamDK and Stamplars like that followed by StamNBs according to kill counter.

Krotha is definitely worth another look, a closer look. If it’s a matter off skill I’ll just tard about until I git good with it. I got three really good buddies I run dungeons with and farm gear with so I’ll go after a masters 2H. Thanks again for the pointers.

The weird thing is a StamDKs playstyle is completely different in PvE than PvP and if I want to play the same way (DW ,High damage) in PvP as in pve I might as well be a stamblade. I’m gonna see if I can rework Krotha’s build and Xnode’s Fury build into something, maybe drop 2H all together.

My whole thing is I set them up with the bow, Stam ravaging poisons, Crit rush even venemous claw. If they aren’t ready for the reverse slice execute and DK dunk ain’t up, I just keep reverse slicing, Crit rushing as they try to run away and heal and eventually they die from a reverse slice. It just seems clunky and sloppy. They die but it’s hardly elegant lol.

to be real, if you like dual wield and you still want fire themed class, go magDK with Dual wield front bar. Trust me, It is like 10 times better than stamDk dual wield, due to the fact that you can have a bar full of class abilities as a magDK and still benefit from dual wield passives.
Its not the best thing ever, but it is playable.

Absolutely gonna have to try magdk, because at least half of what I got slotted is Magicka anyways as far as buffs and the vampire skills. I used to use Obsidian Shard even and liked it. I’ll give it ago. I just never even looked at magdk builds. REALLY thanks for that idea.

MaxwellC · April 2018

@Zophix
Don't think it's fair since we have warmth passive which will keep all players consistently slowed as there's not really a cool-down for the passive.
I did have an idea way back where cleansing would cause the ability to explode and deal either x flame damage or x poison damage.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Yeah I know DW heavies are Quick, folks just stand there and eat mine tho lol. I’ve leveled dizzying swing but can’t slot it. front bar is venemous claw, reverse slash, Crit rush, elusive mist, and invigorating drain. DK dunk. Back bar is lethal arrow, volatile armor, molten armaments, resolving vigor, igneous shield, and Corrosive Armor.

I run 2x Blood Spawn, 5x 7th Legion, 3x agility. I’m gonna give Krotha another look. Thanks man.

Well if you choose to roll with lethal arrow you don't need another spammable either way. I personally find most of those abilities a waste of skill slot. But thats personal preference after all. If you want a half spammable-half cleave, try to get your hands on master 2h. It turns brawler into a spammable.

One other ability you might want to consider, is poison injection. Its half dot-half execute, and its argueably the strongest bow ability because of that.

Also Krotha still streams regularly, you might want to check his twitch if you want to see his build in action.

Hey thanks a bunch for the advice. I FIND most of those skills a waste of slots lol. I can kill stuff but the whole 2H set up seems clunky and kind of off to me. I even rolled a stamblade for PvP because DW is so much fun in PVE with a StamDK. But, I’m too lazy to level up the NB and I LIKE my DK

I got poison injection and use it for PVE. I swap it out for PvP for Lethal Arrow for the range. I even use bow attacks as a spammable (guess I’m a bow tard). I use Stam ravaging poisons and oddly enough I kill a lot of StamDK and Stamplars like that followed by StamNBs according to kill counter.

Krotha is definitely worth another look, a closer look. If it’s a matter off skill I’ll just tard about until I git good with it. I got three really good buddies I run dungeons with and farm gear with so I’ll go after a masters 2H. Thanks again for the pointers.

The weird thing is a StamDKs playstyle is completely different in PvE than PvP and if I want to play the same way (DW ,High damage) in PvP as in pve I might as well be a stamblade. I’m gonna see if I can rework Krotha’s build and Xnode’s Fury build into something, maybe drop 2H all together.

My whole thing is I set them up with the bow, Stam ravaging poisons, Crit rush even venemous claw. If they aren’t ready for the reverse slice execute and DK dunk ain’t up, I just keep reverse slicing, Crit rushing as they try to run away and heal and eventually they die from a reverse slice. It just seems clunky and sloppy. They die but it’s hardly elegant lol.

to be real, if you like dual wield and you still want fire themed class, go magDK with Dual wield front bar. Trust me, It is like 10 times better than stamDk dual wield, due to the fact that you can have a bar full of class abilities as a magDK and still benefit from dual wield passives.
Its not the best thing ever, but it is playable.

Absolutely gonna have to try magdk, because at least half of what I got slotted is Magicka anyways as far as buffs and the vampire skills. I used to use Obsidian Shard even and liked it. I’ll give it ago. I just never even looked at magdk builds. REALLY thanks for that idea.

for a vampire magDk, I recommend being a dunmer. Obsidian shard is not a bad ability, it has very high range and one of the morphs makes it do double damage I believe, while the other is a heal. both nice options in open world. But as far as heals go, your real heals will be embers , coagulating blood and power lash.

JumpmanLane · April 2018

Krotha wrote: »

I've only played a Orc Stam DK for 4 years. I love it.

Here are some changes I'd like to see to Stam DK to open up more build varieties:

- Stamina Cost CC <--- biggest thing to rebuild DKs imo
- One Stamina Cost Draconic Power Ability (specifically talons)
- Noxious breath increases poison dmg similar to engulfing flames.
- Reapplying venomous claw on a target provides a burst damage equivalent to the dmg done on that target (think like how
Rally applies a burst heal, this could be the solution that every stam DK wants for a class execute.
- OR venomous claw heals based on dmg done to target just like burning embers
- OR venomous claw becomes unpurgeable so that the entire damage duration buff increase actually applies to a target
before being purged.
- Corrosive Armor and Standard need their ultimate cost reduced. Corrosive 175. Standard back to 200.
- Fix Take Flight. Fix Take Flight. Fix Take Flight.
- And for the love of all that is holy reduce the magicka cost of earthern heart abilities.

Stamina DK will be fine next patch. Expect to see many more SB/2H builds. I will keep the DW/2H playstyle alive.

Crap! It’s been a while since I looked at your build! I thought it was DW/SB LOL! I’m definitely gonna have to check your stuff out again!

I’ve been running DW/Bow just tarding around solo at times; but mostly 2H/Bow when I’m with my guild and serious. I FORGOT (but remember now) why I forgot your build hehehe. I was new to 2H and leveling it up and 2H/Bow seemed easier and folks just at my DW damage!

Thanks for keeping StamDK DW alive!

Anti_Virus · April 2018

Krotha wrote: »

I've only played a Orc Stam DK for 4 years. I love it.

Here are some changes I'd like to see to Stam DK to open up more build varieties:

- Stamina Cost CC <--- biggest thing to rebuild DKs imo
- One Stamina Cost Draconic Power Ability (specifically talons)
- Noxious breath increases poison dmg similar to engulfing flames.
- Reapplying venomous claw on a target provides a burst damage equivalent to the dmg done on that target (think like how
Rally applies a burst heal, this could be the solution that every stam DK wants for a class execute.
- OR venomous claw heals based on dmg done to target just like burning embers
- OR venomous claw becomes unpurgeable so that the entire damage duration buff increase actually applies to a target
before being purged.
- Corrosive Armor and Standard need their ultimate cost reduced. Corrosive 175. Standard back to 200.
- Fix Take Flight. Fix Take Flight. Fix Take Flight.
- And for the love of all that is holy reduce the magicka cost of earthern heart abilities.

Stamina DK will be fine next patch. Expect to see many more SB/2H builds. I will keep the DW/2H playstyle alive.

Choking talons(Dark Talons Morph) change to deal poison damge or physical damage and cost stamina.

Deep breath(Inhale Morph) converts to stamina and deals poison damage.

Hardend Armor(Spiked Armor morph) now deals physical/poison damge on damge returns.

Igneous Weapons(Molten Armaments Morph)
Gains major brutality instead of major sorcery increases Light attack damage by 10%

Elder Dragon( Dragonic Power Passive)
Grants 5% Health Magicka and Stamina recovery per ability slotted.

NBrookus · April 2018

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Choking talons(Dark Talons Morph) change to deal poison damge or physical damage and cost stamina.

This is the only access to Minor Maim that DK has.

Deep breath(Inhale Morph) converts to stamina and deals poison damage.

I'd be okay with this if the other morph were better. The magicka return on that one is minor, whereas the interrupt is a useful defense mechanism.

Hardend Armor(Spiked Armor morph) now deals physical/poison damge on damge returns.

I prefer Hardened due to the prevalance of bubbles, but this skill could be reworked to have decent stam and magicka versions both.

Igneous Weapons(Molten Armaments Morph)
Gains major brutality instead of major sorcery increases Light attack damage by 10%

It already gives Major Brutality AND Major Sorcery.

lucky_Sage · April 2018

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Krotha wrote: »

I've only played a Orc Stam DK for 4 years. I love it.

Here are some changes I'd like to see to Stam DK to open up more build varieties:

- Stamina Cost CC <--- biggest thing to rebuild DKs imo
- One Stamina Cost Draconic Power Ability (specifically talons)
- Noxious breath increases poison dmg similar to engulfing flames.
- Reapplying venomous claw on a target provides a burst damage equivalent to the dmg done on that target (think like how
Rally applies a burst heal, this could be the solution that every stam DK wants for a class execute.
- OR venomous claw heals based on dmg done to target just like burning embers
- OR venomous claw becomes unpurgeable so that the entire damage duration buff increase actually applies to a target
before being purged.
- Corrosive Armor and Standard need their ultimate cost reduced. Corrosive 175. Standard back to 200.
- Fix Take Flight. Fix Take Flight. Fix Take Flight.
- And for the love of all that is holy reduce the magicka cost of earthern heart abilities.

Stamina DK will be fine next patch. Expect to see many more SB/2H builds. I will keep the DW/2H playstyle alive.

Choking talons(Dark Talons Morph) change to deal poison damge or physical damage and cost stamina.

Deep breath(Inhale Morph) converts to stamina and deals poison damage.

Hardend Armor(Spiked Armor morph) now deals physical/poison damge on damge returns.

Igneous Weapons(Molten Armaments Morph)
Gains major brutality instead of major sorcery increases Light attack damage by 10%

Elder Dragon( Dragonic Power Passive)
Grants 5% Health Magicka and Stamina recovery per ability slotted.

igneous not give major sorcery would hurt magdks if anything it should do both

really fragmented shield should scale of magicka for dk healers

remove snare from ash cloud and give it minor evasion and have eruption cast at players feet and deal burst dmg at 6secs and end of effect timed burst.
cinder storm morph should have a bigger radius or grow the longer its there

elder dragon should be the sustain passive. either cost reduction or increase stam and mag recovery as well but maybe 6 or 7% per sloted

combustion should give make ardent flame DoT abilities cuase x% of dot dmg at purge to add when the counter is so easy 1 buttom removed almost all dmg from dks would really help them in open world.(DoTs are in such a bad place in pvp the whole identity for dks is gone in 1 buttom

searing strikes needs a slight range buff its very clunky trying to apply it to more than 1 enemy or any fast enemy.feiry breath should as will bigger radius to full frontal cone. roots arnt reliable anymore with nerf.(nerf to roots was needed though)

give stamina another ability either inhale morph and chocking talons something to help them in pvp

GeorgeBlack · April 2018

Anything for stamDKs? SnB bloodspawn 7th is still the only build?
Very constructive topic btw.
In a few years you may have reconstructed stamDK

casparian · April 2018

NBrookus wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Choking talons(Dark Talons Morph) change to deal poison damge or physical damage and cost stamina.

This is the only access to Minor Maim that DK has.

Templars have no source of Maim, and fewer (and worse) self-heals than mDKs for that matter, and we get along. Riposte is a more reliable source of Maim anyway.