PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance

Ragnarock41

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Ragnarock41
In PvP it procs pretty good for both Mag/Stam DK. Mag DK procs a lot using burning embers alone but when I coupled it with fiery breath it worked pretty nicely. Stam DK I only used inject but even then it was pretty nice.

have you tried dueling against a magsorc/magNb yet? Or an argonian/bosmer? Asking for curiosity, as I'm unable to test it untill next week.

Savos_Saren

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Combustion passive is fine; I tested it both for Mag/Stam DK, you can literally proc the passive if you have poison inject slotted as a Stam DK so that'll be something you always use in PvE but I haven't seen its proc ratio with venom/nox breath. Mag DK you can easily proc it with fiery breath and all of the other ardent skills/blockade,etc

the main issue is how reliable it would be in PvP , not PvE.

For PvE it will provide good sustain since in PvE you will be using noxious,claws,poison inject. 3 poison dots , and those will make sure it procs every 5 seconds considering mobs and bosses have no immunity against the poisoned status effect.

in PvP there are tons of ways to prevent the poisoned proc, like shields,cloak, racial resistances, or a simple poison/disease resist glyph.

Rag- don't forget that you can prevent burning with shields, cloak, racial resistances, or flame resist glyphs too.

The only difference is that there's two races that prevent poison as opposed to one that prevents burning.

There's lots of sets out there that can assist DKs with inflicting poison and burning as well. Viper, Plague Slinger, Night Terror, Hand of Mephala, Syvarrah's Scales, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see an increase in StamDKs wearing these sets.

MaxwellC

@Ragnarock41
Only tested it dueling a Mag DK, Magplar, Stam DK & Stamblade.

Ragnarock41

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Combustion passive is fine; I tested it both for Mag/Stam DK, you can literally proc the passive if you have poison inject slotted as a Stam DK so that'll be something you always use in PvE but I haven't seen its proc ratio with venom/nox breath. Mag DK you can easily proc it with fiery breath and all of the other ardent skills/blockade,etc

the main issue is how reliable it would be in PvP , not PvE.

For PvE it will provide good sustain since in PvE you will be using noxious,claws,poison inject. 3 poison dots , and those will make sure it procs every 5 seconds considering mobs and bosses have no immunity against the poisoned status effect.

in PvP there are tons of ways to prevent the poisoned proc, like shields,cloak, racial resistances, or a simple poison/disease resist glyph.

Rag- don't forget that you can prevent burning with shields, cloak, racial resistances, or flame resist glyphs too.

The only difference is that there's two races that prevent poison as opposed to one that prevents burning.

There's lots of sets out there that can assist DKs with inflicting poison and burning as well. Viper, Plague Slinger, Night Terror, Hand of Mephala, Syvarrah's Scales, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see an increase in StamDKs wearing these sets.

I see your point with magDks and burning effect. They also have the same problem against cloak,dunmers,damage shields etc.

I don't think I will need any of those sets to proc the poisoned/burning effects, the issue is that there are too many things that are just immune to the poisoned effect, and same thing applies to burning aswell, so why not make this passive based on poison/burning damage instead of status effects?

Reliability is key factor of any PvP build, and a poor man's bloodthorn that is not working half of the time is not something to be hyped for. I hope they change this in next week's pts.

Ragnarock41

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Ragnarock41
Only tested it dueling a Mag DK, Magplar, Stam DK & Stamblade.

interesting. was the stamblade a bosmer/argonian , or some other race? I would be happy to know that cloak does not completely render it useless, but I still have to know if this stamblade was a bosmer or not.

lucky_Sage

@MaxwellC

for wings costin stamina it make almost usless for magicka they need stam way more the stam needs magicka a magdk would be better off going 2h and forward momentum it would cost less stam and last longer. as a magicka toon I wouldn't spend more than 3k stamina on a abilty I need to stam for cc break way more.

lucky_Sage

Fragmentated Shield needs to scale of max magicka
a healer giving a 2k shield as part of there kit is awfull a secondary effect shouldn't be the reason to use a abilty

Mihael

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Fragmentated Shield needs to scale of max magicka
a healer giving a 2k shield as part of there kit is awfull a secondary effect should be the reason to use a abilty

Wouldn’t this essentially give you a hardened ward that also gives you major mending I think that’s a bit op

lucky_Sage

Mihael wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Fragmentated Shield needs to scale of max magicka
a healer giving a 2k shield as part of there kit is awfull a secondary effect should be the reason to use a abilty

Wouldn’t this essentially give you a hardened ward that also gives you major mending I think that’s a bit op

no it wouldn't be no where near that strong I would think to would be around 6k to 8k less that half the value it would actually give dk healers some value

caperon

Savos_Saren wrote: »

As someone stated earlier: Cauterize benefits from ABSOLUTELY NO PASSIVES on the Ardent Flame skilline. None at all. Look it up... it's actually hilariously sad.

I'd like to remark this sentence because is the most important one on this entire topic. Not about cauterize about being good or being bad, rather about how this is a prime example of bad design.

DK had an identity and around it all the class skills and passives were created. Time has passed and the game changed and seems that ideas are being thrown at the class without thinking too much, there is no vision for the class (almost for any class tbf). Its sad.

---

You can keep discussing about personal opinions of what the class needs or needs not.

Ragnarock41

caperon wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

As someone stated earlier: Cauterize benefits from ABSOLUTELY NO PASSIVES on the Ardent Flame skilline. None at all. Look it up... it's actually hilariously sad.

I'd like to remark this sentence because is the most important one on this entire topic. Not about cauterize about being good or being bad, rather about how this is a prime example of bad design.

DK had an identity and around it all the class skills and passives were created. Time has passed and the game changed and seems that ideas are being thrown at the class without thinking too much, there is no vision for the class (almost for any class tbf). Its sad.

---

You can keep discussing about personal opinions of what the class needs or needs not.

Wrobel just slaps a heal on every Dk skill that has some potential. Not saying this to bash him or anything, but he really is just slapping heals on literally every Dk skill he changed for a while now. Even the petrify morph got a heal, Its out of control.

ak_pvp

Just slapping this here. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/409113/magdk-solo-outnumbered-pvp-build-for-summerset-the-broken-op-pot-addict#latest

DK changes are disappointing, but holy hell if this goes through we have the newest OP build:

Kilandros

ak_pvp wrote: »

Just slapping this here. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/409113/magdk-solo-outnumbered-pvp-build-for-summerset-the-broken-op-pot-addict#latest

DK changes are disappointing, but holy hell if this goes through we have the newest OP build:

How is some random, untested theorycraft build OP? It sounds like you just took some of the ideas the potion CD magblade lizards are theorycrafting and slapped it on DK?

ak_pvp

Kilandros wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Just slapping this here. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/409113/magdk-solo-outnumbered-pvp-build-for-summerset-the-broken-op-pot-addict#latest

DK changes are disappointing, but holy hell if this goes through we have the newest OP build:

How is some random, untested theorycraft build OP? It sounds like you just took some of the ideas the potion CD magblade lizards are theorycrafting and slapped it on DK?

Effectively yeah, but with the DK touch of valkyn and heavy with a DKs much higher stam sustain.

It gives DK mobility, much better both stat regen, and 50% uptime on immovability, whilst having good lockdown, and you lose effectively nothing in terms of damage. Its pretty obviously going to be broken if it gets in.

MaxwellC

@lucky_Sage Please look to my response regarding that "they need stam way more the stam needs magicka".
I will keep repeating this but you can't have it both ways mate and no Mag DK wouldn't use a 2h because they would waste a weapon slot especially if wings becomes an immunity regardless of the cost it would still be more viable since you can use the weapon slot of your choice and save a skill slot..

You break free and what happens oh you get 80% stam reduction for the first ability used within 3 seconds i.e CP passives. My Mag DK has that passive and if you don't then that's on you.
The point of that comment is to state you can easily have the reduction reduced; This only pertains to CP enabled areas but nonetheless.

Mag DK currently still does fine without a snare cleanse (at-least I haven't seen anyone use one nor have I) so you suddenly getting a snare immunity and having it cost Magicka which allows you to have a blanket reduction in cost if you're using light armor... Yeah not happening.

Also again as I stated before we Stam DKs utilize fire-scale but we have a 4 second duration till they expire unless the threshold of 4 reflected projectiles is met. I am still able to use my wings just fine and my Magicka pool is at 9.5 or 9.9k; Your argument is that it'll be too expensive yet I can manage just fine and if you have immunity for 4 seconds it's not like you'll be needing to keep spamming it.
In what point should a snare immunity (pretty powerful buff) be available to a Magicka DK that excels at lockdown with hard/soft cc + snare nearing 100% up time; As I said before you cannot have it both ways mate.

MaxwellC

@Ragnarock41
I don't remember all I know is that I seen the combustion passive lit up when I fought them 3 times each.

MaxwellC

@lucky_Sage
Fragmented shield needs to be an offensive morph for Stamina while Igneous shield should get back its duration with major mending while maintaining the current shield strength it has i.e 200%.

Re-name Fragmented shield to "Virulent Detonation": When active 50% of the damage accumulated within 5-10 seconds is released to all targets in X radius dealing poison damage and setting them off balanced.
^That is my ideal change. if not poison then make it physical and name it "Shattering Detonation".

Abysswarrior45

MaxwellC wrote: »

@lucky_Sage
Fragmented shield needs to be an offensive morph for Stamina while Igneous shield should get back its duration with major mending while maintaining the current shield strength it has i.e 200%.

Re-name Fragmented shield to "Virulent Detonation": When active 50% of the damage accumulated within 5-10 seconds is released to all targets in X radius dealing poison damage and setting them off balanced.
^That is my ideal change. if not poison then make it physical and name it "Shattering Detonation".

Or just add a stam whip with the current changes and stam dk would better than its been since the wrecking blow days.

HeroOfNone

I'I'd say the issue with DKS is their PVE game is stong but boring and their PVP side is hard mode

PVE side their DOTS and heavy attack rotations are some of the best DPS numbers I see for stamina, and pretty up there for magicka. The heavy attack rotation though is boring, and leaves some of us with the heavy attack bug annoyed every time we sit there doing nothing as it pauses.

Tank wise, most folks run a DK. Even with the nerf to earthen heart lines they can hold stamina up pretty well using Igneous Shield and Balance. You have chains, one of the only classes that can pull enmies where you want them to be. And finally you get resources back on ultimates, giving a double boost to resources for things like warhorn.

It's important to recognize these strengths because I feel that's the excuse not to boost its PVP counterpart. It has no burst, you literally have to keep on your target and if you have a bunch of enemies around, you better hope folks will help you sort through which has your DOT on them. You can make them extremely tanky and annoying to kill using their tank talents, but then you end up with unkillable builds that stand there doing nothing until they are in large groups, which ZOS has wanted to curb.

So balance wise if you touch the dps part I think you risk them over performing in PVE or you buff the tank part you get hard to kill builds. I think part of what shold be done is to adjust on some of the under used skills like many talk about and go with:
1. Drop the healer aspect of the class, including the healing aspect of stone fist or cauterize
2. Give more debuffs like defile, Uncertainty, Enervating, Cowardice, and others to make them more enticing as a buff/debuff class
3. Rework in more delayed damage abilities like the warden has.
4. Admit that we can't balance the abilities aND give DKS a proper escape skill set to run or avoid a fight.

I don't care what it is from the list above really, but I think it's got to be something in there that can be used to secure a DK's spot in PVP better. If we can also improve some of the boringness to the heavy attack meta, I'd be for that as well.

MaxwellC

@Abysswarrior45
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Stamina DKs do not need a stamina whip; We shouldn't steal one of the whips from Magicka DK who rely on one for PvP & the other for PvE.

There are plenty of ideas that can be thrown around like the one I had about fragmented shield or we could get rid of the useless stonefist ability and finally make that as well a(n) viable ability for PvP Stam DK.
We could get Flames of Oblivion back as an AoE and have it change properties based on max resource/damage (properties as in damage type i.e flame or poison).

BohnT

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Abysswarrior45
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Stamina DKs do not need a stamina whip; We shouldn't steal one of the whips from Magicka DK who rely on one for PvP & the other for PvE.

There are plenty of ideas that can be thrown around like the one I had about fragmented shield or we could get rid of the useless stonefist ability and finally make that as well a(n) viable ability for PvP Stam DK.
We could get Flames of Oblivion back as an AoE and have it change properties based on max resource/damage (properties as in damage type i.e flame or poison).

It's not about the whip it's about giving stamdk a stamina based class spammable as well as another delayed burst skill.

It's just absolutely ridiculous when you play stamdk that any other build is just miles ahead in all meaningful categories.

MaxwellC

@BohnT
I said it before that we can utilize other skills but stealing one that is already integral to both aspects of a Mag DKs performance in PvP and PvE is extremely unfair. I'm all for a spam-able which is why I said there are plenty of other abilities we could take and change to fit a stam narrative.
I stated we could take fragmented shield and gave my idea.
I stated stonefist can be changed into a whole new ability favoring Stam DK (spam-able could be introduced there too).
Igneous weapons can be changed into a skill similar to imbue favoring stamina in a unique way.
Green Dragons' blood could be made to give x stamina back per second while retaining the current buffs.

The list can go on but it's all about having a unique change as long as it doesn't disrupt the other aspect of the class.

Anti_Virus

MaxwellC wrote: »

@BohnT
I said it before that we can utilize other skills but stealing one that is already integral to both aspects of a Mag DKs performance in PvP and PvE is extremely unfair. I'm all for a spam-able which is why I said there are plenty of other abilities we could take and change to fit a stam narrative.
I stated we could take fragmented shield and gave my idea.
I stated stonefist can be changed into a whole new ability favoring Stam DK (spam-able could be introduced there too).
Igneous weapons can be changed into a skill similar to imbue favoring stamina in a unique way.
Green Dragons' blood could be made to give x stamina back per second while retaining the current buffs.

The list can go on but it's all about having a unique change as long as it doesn't disrupt the other aspect of the class.

How many time do we have to say that an earthen heart spammable cannot be done due to helping hands passive? Do you know how OP it would be to have a cheap spammable and return 990 stam each cast? So no eathern heart spammable

If a spammable is to be given it should come from the damage appropriate tree "ardent flame". But good news Psjiic skilline might be a small solution to the DK and Stam sorc spammable problem.

Abysswarrior45

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Abysswarrior45
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Stamina DKs do not need a stamina whip; We shouldn't steal one of the whips from Magicka DK who rely on one for PvP & the other for PvE.

There are plenty of ideas that can be thrown around like the one I had about fragmented shield or we could get rid of the useless stonefist ability and finally make that as well a(n) viable ability for PvP Stam DK.
We could get Flames of Oblivion back as an AoE and have it change properties based on max resource/damage (properties as in damage type i.e flame or poison).

Thats such a stupid argument. Mag dks don't need 2 different whip morphs. Give a whip to stam and adjust the mag dk so it doesn't kill them in PvE, WHICH IT WOULDN'T. Sticking to flame lash isn't going to make them bottom tier. Moreover, if it really were such an issue there are countless alternatives as spammables for mag classes. Stam chars, until stamden, have never been hugely AOE based and a delayed burst skill is only homogenizing the classes further making stam dk and stamden very similar. Giving stam a stam whip keeps the stam dk unique and relevant.

Anti_Virus

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Abysswarrior45
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Stamina DKs do not need a stamina whip; We shouldn't steal one of the whips from Magicka DK who rely on one for PvP & the other for PvE.

There are plenty of ideas that can be thrown around like the one I had about fragmented shield or we could get rid of the useless stonefist ability and finally make that as well a(n) viable ability for PvP Stam DK.
We could get Flames of Oblivion back as an AoE and have it change properties based on max resource/damage (properties as in damage type i.e flame or poison).

Thats such a stupid argument. Mag dks don't need 2 different whip morphs. Give a whip to stam and adjust the mag dk so it doesn't kill them in PvE, WHICH IT WOULDN'T. Sticking to flame lash isn't going to make them bottom tier. Moreover, if it really were such an issue there are countless alternatives as spammables for mag classes. Stam chars, until stamden, have never been hugely AOE based and a delayed burst skill is only homogenizing the classes further making stam dk and stamden very similar. Giving stam a stam whip keeps the stam dk unique and relevant.

they keep making that argument although Templars and NBs had no problem converting one ability morph into stam. But its pointless to ask I belive they stated that we will not receive a stam whip.

Abysswarrior45

Also Mag dk currently open world solo outperforms stamina dk by a mile, especially medium dk. Mag dk in groups outperforms stamina dk by 2 miles. Mag dk in duels outperforms stam dk by a mile. With the changes to sunder flame and NMG as well as reducing heavy attack damage further who's to say mag dk won't be better in PvE during trials?

MaxwellC

@Anti_Virus
My fragmented shield idea would still be Magicka costing but scale with Max stamina/weapon damage while doing physical/poison damage. The same could be done with a new skill in replace of stonefist but just make it a spam-able by reducing the cost significantly i.e 1/1.5k magicka. You could still argue the same 990 stamina return but there isn't enough skills to change that wouldn't significantly affect the magicka DK class.

I've PvP'd with the new skill line and imbue/morph only works well when you empower it and unfortunately no one has enough time to do that. The new nerf to Stam DK i.e empowering being changed to a light attack is going to definitely hurt Stam DKs again.

@Abysswarrior45
Okay see your statement alone dictates that you do not play Mag DK PvE and are only staring at what's in front of you like some boar. Magicka DK USES MOLTEN WHIP FOR PVE so STOP. This stamina whip nonsense is rather frustrating and again WE DO NOT NEED IT.
Stamina DK was one of the first player based AoE classes where it preformed pretty awesome in PvP so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Delayed burst i.e fragmented shield change (my idea) is something that plays on the exact idea of what a DK is suppose to be i.e "Stand your ground". You state homogenizing the class but again nothing in the game acts the same way as that aside from sun shield which is shield based not damaging accumulated base so that point is instantly invalidated.

Lastly about your Stam whip nonsense about how it would make it unique and somehow more relevant is funny. Do you really play a Stamina DK? You immediately shoot your own point in the foot by stating somehow stealing a magicka version of whip and converting it to stamina is somehow unique while that somehow makes it relevant. How? how does a whip make stamina DK relevant because frankly it doesn't. What makes Stam DK relevant as of now, would be the passives and ultimates; Skills aren't really fun in PvP but PvE they preform nicely.

Abysswarrior45

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Anti_Virus
My fragmented shield idea would still be Magicka costing but scale with Max stamina/weapon damage while doing physical/poison damage. The same could be done with a new skill in replace of stonefist but just make it a spam-able by reducing the cost significantly i.e 1/1.5k magicka. You could still argue the same 990 stamina return but there isn't enough skills to change that wouldn't significantly affect the magicka DK class.

I've PvP'd with the new skill line and imbue/morph only works well when you empower it and unfortunately no one has enough time to do that. The new nerf to Stam DK i.e empowering being changed to a light attack is going to definitely hurt Stam DKs again.

@Abysswarrior45
Okay see your statement alone dictates that you do not play Mag DK PvE and are only staring at what's in front of you like some boar. Magicka DK USES MOLTEN WHIP FOR PVE so STOP. This stamina whip nonsense is rather frustrating and again WE DO NOT NEED IT.
Stamina DK was one of the first player based AoE classes where it preformed pretty awesome in PvP so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Delayed burst i.e fragmented shield change (my idea) is something that plays on the exact idea of what a DK is suppose to be i.e "Stand your ground". You state homogenizing the class but again nothing in the game acts the same way as that aside from sun shield which is shield based not damaging accumulated base so that point is instantly invalidated.

Lastly about your Stam whip nonsense about how it would make it unique and somehow more relevant is funny. Do you really play a Stamina DK? You immediately shoot your own point in the foot by stating somehow stealing a magicka version of whip and converting it to stamina is somehow unique while that somehow makes it relevant. How? how does a whip make stamina DK relevant because frankly it doesn't. What makes Stam DK relevant as of now, would be the passives and ultimates; Skills aren't really fun in PvP but PvE they preform nicely.

Of course mag dk uses molten whip in PvE currently, duh, but if it were stam they'd have to resort to something else and no that wouldn't make them bottom tier. You misinterpreted what I wrote. When has stam dk ever been an AOE DD based class? Sure it has leap but thats the only AOE burst skill it has. Steel tornado was nerfed for good reason and its not a dk skill. A delayed burst skill like the fragmented shield you're suggesting is similar to warden in the fact shalks is a delayed burst skill. Pretty common sense, thought we'd be on the same page there. Stam whip makes dk relevant because its a spammable unique to the dragon knight class and its 1 more reason to play it over a different class. Mag dk doesn't need 2 different whip morphs. It may not be as amazing without molten whip, but there are alternatives and there Zaan too. Not using molten whips will not make the mag dk bottom tier.

Stam dk needs a class spammable and whip is the most logical choice since there are 2 versions. With the changes making staves count as a 2-piece, resto backbar on mag dk is a lot more appealing for the resources management it provides, resto ult, and survivability. Maybe leave molten whips alone and give the flame lash to stam dk (if needed adjust the healing available to mag dk). Stam dk definitely needs major mending so your suggestion on changing fragmented shield into a delayed burst skill would be stupid unless you're meaning it keeps the major mending AND acts as a delayed burst skill too, which would be too powerful to gain that much from one skill.

PS: I have 5 dk characters all Flawless done all PvE content with them without carries. I must admit, I am more of a PvP player, but I can 1vX consistently on both mag dk and stam dk alike. Been playing them since launch so questioning whether I play dk is laughable and adds nothing to your argument.

MaxwellC

@Abysswarrior45
So every skill that preforms in a way i.e spam is the same so pretty much you stated that venom claw is the same as surprise attack. Yup this discussion here is showing how much of a waste this is.
Mag DKs PvE numbers come from molten whip like you seriously do not play a Mag DK, making molten whip into a stam whip would cripple their PvE numbers but it's ok to disregard that because you don't play one right.

Stam whip would be a spam-able therefore it makes Stam DK relevant? Lol but didn't you just state that all skills that act the same way are similar e.g what you said about my proposed fragmented shield change. You then try to say "but what about proc set Zaan" again I've said it a-lot through this thread, DO NOT USE A SET TO JUSTIFY YOUR PRECONCEIVED NOTION(S), KTHX.

Taking flame lash is also again a NO that belongs to their PvP aspect but see you just wanna steal things from the DK class without thinking of something unique and it's funny you throw around the word 'unique' rather flippantly through-out this back n forth but clearly do not understand what 'unique' means.

Stam DK doesn't "Definitely need major mending" like what? You state you play DK in PvP well if you feel you need major mending as a DK in PvP then you are most certainly a bad DK like woah. You also fail to realize major mending remains on Igneous shield and I've said to bring back the duration to that morph while changing fragmented shield into my idea or something offensive for Stamina DK.

Regarding your last comment, Ofc I'd ask because you don't seem to be one who has played this class a lot or has some kind of in-depth out look for this class. You talk about unique changes but in the next breath talk about taking one morph and making it stamina like woah that's a lot of creativity there chief, don't kid yourself mate. You one disregard one class saying they don't need X then in the next breath state molten whip wouldn't screw their DPS which is their main skill as a Mag DK DPS.

MaxwellC

@Abysswarrior45
Also to put this Stam whip notion to rest. Wrobel has already stated that we will never have one so please you may stop beating the dead horse as it won't come back alive for you to continually ride that nonsense to his grave.