PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknight Balance

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for the Dragonknight combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

Kilandros

Reflective Plate will need to provide brief snare immunity in addition to removing snares.

BohnT

Kilandros wrote: »

Reflective Plate will need to provide brief snare immunity in addition to removing snares.

yes we Need atleast 2 seconds of snare immunity to make this skill viable right now the Version won't help anyone.

Also please give us a stamdk class spammable. Please just make it happen

BohnT

Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

sneakymitchell

BohnT wrote: »

Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

Man elder dragon needs a buff or change since the defile can go through health recovery. Having 5% ain’t much when having couple health recovery in the set up. And the 12% healing recived should be 15% healing recived try to balance this defile.

Veg

I'll take this chance to keep magma shell(ult) a topic for pvp.

Currently it's solo value is reduced damage taken (3% of max health from each attack) for 11 seconds and it's group value is a shield for 50% of the targets max health but does not apply to you (approximately 10-15k).

Magma shell costs 200ult.

Barrier also costs 200ult.

Barrier gives a shield for at least 20k and increases the groups damage. So magma shell is 100% useless for group utility.

Now for solo utility the reduced damage doesn't help you if you are tanking as the difference in damage taken with or without the ult is minimal so basically anything else is better.

If you are not tanking the 200 ult cost is too high to have any use for offensive opportunity and the magma shell morph gives you literally no bonus over the non morphed ability.

Buff: reduce cost to 150 from 200 ultimate.

Change: Shield that applies to nearby allies to some other kind of buff so it does not have to compete with barrier. Making Magma shell even stronger than barrier would be too much.

Magma shell also starts to compete with ferocious leap assuming you are using an offensive build and not tanking. The reason to use magma shell would be to drop block and stop healing so you can focus purely on damage but Leap already accomplishes this for a much shorter duration with the shield it gives you.

With leap only costing 125 ult its vastly superior in this case as it also gives you burst damage.

BohnT

Something for Corrosive Armor/ magma shell:
Decrease the cost and duration by 50%
This my Sound odd but this increases the uptime of this ultimate when you need it and not useless duration when you already survived the pressure

ak_pvp

@ZOS_Wrobel PVP opinion

A DKs defense, wings and innate tankiness factored, is the worst in the game, believe it or not. Even worse when you consider the lack of mobility The passives worked out as less than minor protection. (technically 1.5%.more, but 5% of it is blocking only, which has is now unsustainable, and the other 4.5% is spell only) Maim is the best tool, but melee, mag only and open to others, for instance NB now.

Igneous got crystal ass blasted, so it's worse on both overall, not worth using on mag at all,and still worse for stam who are pretty damn dead atm. 6s+bigger shield before now 4.5s and smaller, or 2.5s and bigger.

The snare removal is useless, since it doesn't grant immunity. With a dot or AoE you will be snared straight away again. Mist is better. To be worthwhile, it has to be 4s at least. (since otherwise mist out defenses and out snare removes it) and should be 3 per person reflect, lasting 4s. Honestly it could even be a deflect on plate, and the other fire scale morph be the reflect.

The heal changes do nothing for PVP. Though I may try cinder storm, a small long duration range AoE heal over time isn't worth running ow, movement is still important. Stop trying to make cauterize happen, 28m is useless on a ST heal every 5s. (pretty decent as a solo HoT)

The shattering rocks change seems eh at face value. Really depends how high it heals. I could see some troll usage getting healed 10k, but Foss is often necessary to land power whips and for combos

The sustain changes will be good definitely, free 250 regeneration isn't anything to turn down. But RNG is annoying, and useless against shield users, and other dunmer for mag, and bosmer/argonians for stam. Why is it tied to this?

NobleX35

BohnT wrote: »

Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

I still agree with the need for a better spammable (class or weapon based), but I disagree with your two choices. As I’ve stated before, Stone Giant would not be a good spammable for Stamdks because the cost would be way too high in order to compensate for the constant stamina return from Helping Hands.

BohnT

NobleX35 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

I still agree with the need for a better spammable (class or weapon based), but I disagree with your two choices. As I’ve stated before, Stone Giant would not be a good spammable for Stamdks because the cost would be way too high in order to compensate for the constant stamina return from Helping Hands.

Well the cost could be balanced with helping hands in mind. Just increase the cost by 990 compared to other skills and it's fine. What might be very strong is that you proc the ulti gain almost on cooldown

NobleX35

BohnT wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

I still agree with the need for a better spammable (class or weapon based), but I disagree with your two choices. As I’ve stated before, Stone Giant would not be a good spammable for Stamdks because the cost would be way too high in order to compensate for the constant stamina return from Helping Hands.

Well the cost could be balanced with helping hands in mind. Just increase the cost by 990 compared to other skills and it's fine. What might be very strong is that you proc the ulti gain almost on cooldown

You can’t simply increase the cost by 990, because you have to take into consideration skill cost reduction multipliers from gear passives and skill cost reduction glyphs...the skill would likely have to have a 4K stamina base cost at minimum which is incredibly too expensive as a spammable.And you’re right that the ulti gen would potentially be yet another issue...

I’m all for a stam whip or better weapon spammables, but their is no real way you could balance stone giant to be a stamina spammable.

NyassaV

mDK is going to be just a tad OP with these changes which is why I am puzzled why other classes are receiving sustain and damage nerfs while mDK is snare removal and sustain buffs

Stam DK is very lackluster but preforms extremely well in niche situations. I'd like to see it have more viability is more situations

BohnT

NobleX35 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Here are the reasons why Stamdk is weak in PvP:

Stamdk has huge problems in PvP:
1. They are the spec which takes the most damage in open world pvp. Stamdk has the least ways to avoid damage while having the worst effective healing on top of that.
Nightblades can avoid all damage as long as their cloak doesn't break and they can also remove all further pressure from skills with shadow image by using it wisely and hindering your enemy totally to attack you. They might have weak healing but overall they have great survivability from not taking damage in the first place.
Templars Templars feature the same crappy mobility as DKs. However they can completely remove the full damage of dots and Skoria aswell as other debuffs making their healing better as they don't face defiles like other classes have to. They can't get away however limiting their lifespan to the point where the next zerg tries to kill you.
Sorcs With shields sorcs have a set amount of burst "heal" they can utilise whenever they please and in PvP Burst > Dots/Hots. Aswell as the ability to negate all magicka based ranged damage aswell as the ability to create a gap between you and your enemy that he physically can't close which sets their damage to the dots they applied to you before you escaped.
Wardenhave a burst heal as often as they needed along with a great defensive ult that can reach a uptime of almost 100% which makes you invulnerable against atleast 2 enemies. Along with great mobility due to snare reduction and 100% major expedition uptime they can reduce the incoming damage from all meele classes ,which don't have access to major expedition by a lot. As their skills won't connect due to you being out of range. And they can negate 100% of all magicka based ranged damage as long as they want with shimmering shield

Stamdk are forced to eat all meele, dot & most magicka based ranged damage. Wings only reflect a small portion of all skills while being too expensive to be kept up 100% of the time. As an result dk has to rely on dither dodge rolls which is too expensive and too bad with the amount of undodgeable skills in the game or block. Block reduces all direct damage but most dots go through it aswell as shalks, curse and PotL+ can be countered by 3 classes with CCs.
As DK has no mobility by itself they are locked into using Forward Momentum and Vigor as healing which gets increased by 25% with major mending and 12% by Passives. This sounds great but with defiles one player can reduce that with no point into befoul to 7%.
This sets a limit for DKs how much damage they can take before they will die after a set amount of time.
With the lack of mobility their live ends as soon as an enemy zerg is attacking them or is trying to get to them.

On an average day of PvP my deaths through the classes look something like this:
NB: 0-5 Deaths (depending how often i get marked or soultrapped)
Sorc: 0-10 Death (depending on shieldbreaker usage and personal fails)
Warden: 3-10 (few times where zergs actually catch me)
Templar: 10-25 (depending how often zergs try to kill me -5 as this is how often I normally can still get away)
DK: X>15 (equals the amount I fight multiple decent people or a zerg attacks me)

2. They are also the class which relies the most on your enemy to be bad.
As a DK your burst is very weak and completely build around Leap or Dawnbreaker with another skill.
Leap is really unreliable in open world as it can be dodged (thanks for saying it can't be Wrobel, I encounter it 10 times a day when using leap) and the damage of leap might be great but it can be blocked and it is never enough to one shot anyone so you need another skill.

Heroic Slash doesn't deal enough damage to finish more tanky players
Dizzying Swing has great damage but the cast time and the fact that can be dodged, blocked or removed by walking through the caster makes it too slow and too easy, to avoid for good players which won't die to one leap.
As you can't kill your enemies fast enough other people will arrive and at one time you reach the point where they simply kill you and there is nothing you can do, you can't escape, you can't tank them you can only think where to respawn


3. The main sustain stamdk has gets counteracted by the way pvp is played.
Battle roar completely relies on how often you use your ults but ults are not ment to be used mindelessly they are either used to burst down enemies or to survive the pressure when you have to go to defend yourself.

This all comes together making stamdk a bad choice for pvp overall as every class has at least one aspect where they truly outshine stamdk.
I'm not saying you can't do well on a DK but you will be much more effective on any other class

And here are the ideas to make Stamdk a viable class again:

1. Change 1 of the following skills to be a high damage, instant, dodgeable & blockable, meele single target Stamina based spamamble:
Stone Giant (in the following reffered to as SG) or Noxious Breath ( i. t. f. reffered to as NB):
Reasoning and Implementation:
Both skills aren't used by most dks, SG isn't used by any DK, the damage is weak, the buff it grants is lackluster and it's magicka based while magdks already have a great CC and spammable. Noxious Breath is used in PvE but only as another Dot for DPS.
If you choose SG to be the new Spammable: Set the damage somewhere between Suprise attack and Heroic slash, the cost should be equal to Whip, as a secondary effect Keep the minor ward an minor resolve buffs but add minor breach as a Debuff to it.
If you Chose NB: The damage should be equal to suprise attack but poison based. The Major fracture debuff should be changed with minor savagery + minor endurance for 4 seconds

If These changes happen you have to look at the Performance in PvE meaning, you have to test how much DPS the new Spammable contributes in a perfectly optimized Rotation and how much damage the main spammable and in case of NB the dot contributed.
Equal this difference in dps by nerfing Venemous claws a bit (this should be 1% damage nerf max to Venemous claws)


2. Change Reflective Plate to remove all snares and granting you 2 seconds of immunity + 0.75 seconds per reflected projectile during the Duration.
3. Deep Breath took a huge nerf with the changes to Interrupts. As Stamdk lacks burst a delayed burst ability like Deep Breath works perfectly and doesn't affect PvE much as Drain Essence is the better Morph there (excpet for vMol twins)
Make it Stamina based, reduce the damage and healing of the first hit by 40% but increase the damage of the second hit by 25% and remove the Interrupt effect of the ability.

These changes would give stamdk more burst, better survivability and more class identity but they wouldn't make stamdk viable enough.

There are several useless passives which are a joke compared to the passives of Warden, Nightblades or Sorcs.

Elder Dragon: Get rid of the Health Regeneration and Change it to grant you 35 mag and stam everytime you are hit with a .5 second cooldown this will result in a 140 mag and stam Regeneration if you are actually fighting

Mountain's Blessing: DKs are the class which build their sustain around ultimates although they have the worst ultimate Regeneration in the game. Increase the amount of ultimate granted from 3 to 5 seconds to help Overall sustain and viability.

These changes will help stamdk being a viable class in PvP with a true identity and not being left as an empty Shell which tries to Keep the memories of better times alive

I still agree with the need for a better spammable (class or weapon based), but I disagree with your two choices. As I’ve stated before, Stone Giant would not be a good spammable for Stamdks because the cost would be way too high in order to compensate for the constant stamina return from Helping Hands.

Well the cost could be balanced with helping hands in mind. Just increase the cost by 990 compared to other skills and it's fine. What might be very strong is that you proc the ulti gain almost on cooldown

You can’t simply increase the cost by 990, because you have to take into consideration skill cost reduction multipliers from gear passives and skill cost reduction glyphs...the skill would likely have to have a 4K stamina base cost at minimum which is incredibly too expensive as a spammable.And you’re right that the ulti gen would potentially be yet another issue...

I’m all for a stam whip or better weapon spammables, but their is no real way you could balance stone giant to be a stamina spammable.

Tbh i just added Stone Giant to the list because there is one certain player here on the forums that wants to see this happens and seems to derail every stamdk post where this isn't mentioned.
My preference is noxious Breath because i always see a poison whip as a liana whip which would look ridiculous and magdks would like to be able to use both morphs one in pve one in pvp.

Kilandros

NyassaV wrote: »

mDK is going to be just a tad OP with these changes which is why I am puzzled why other classes are receiving sustain and damage nerfs while mDK is snare removal and sustain buffs

Stam DK is very lackluster but preforms extremely well in niche situations. I'd like to see it have more viability is more situations

mDK has the worst sustain in the game. It desperately needed sustain buffs. As for snare removal, unless snare immunity is also granted it's pretty useless in open-world PvP.

BohnT

Kilandros wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

mDK is going to be just a tad OP with these changes which is why I am puzzled why other classes are receiving sustain and damage nerfs while mDK is snare removal and sustain buffs

Stam DK is very lackluster but preforms extremely well in niche situations. I'd like to see it have more viability is more situations

mDK has the worst sustain in the game. It desperately needed sustain buffs. As for snare removal, unless snare immunity is also granted it's pretty useless in open-world PvP.

Stamplar is worse by far. Sustaining with magdk can be hard especially in heavy but it's doable in light.

The snare removal alone is a joke, imagine you are in caltrops or another dk put a dot on you

Kilandros

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

mDK is going to be just a tad OP with these changes which is why I am puzzled why other classes are receiving sustain and damage nerfs while mDK is snare removal and sustain buffs

Stam DK is very lackluster but preforms extremely well in niche situations. I'd like to see it have more viability is more situations

mDK has the worst sustain in the game. It desperately needed sustain buffs. As for snare removal, unless snare immunity is also granted it's pretty useless in open-world PvP.

Stamplar is worse by far. Sustaining with magdk can be hard especially in heavy but it's doable in light.

The snare removal alone is a joke, imagine you are in caltrops or another dk put a dot on you

To be fair, Stamplar sustain (and I have an AR 46 Stamplar) is not as bad as a lot of people make it out to be. The problem is it's very feast-or-famine if you're relying only on Repentance (Repent nerf still one of the dumbest nerfs in the history of this game).

As a Stamplar you NEED to be heavy attacking regularly throughout your rotations. That's a big source of your sustain. Maybe if S/B heavy attacks restored Magicka mDK sustain would be about the same--but it doesn't. If mDKs can actually run Destro in open-world that might help their sustain a bit, but even so landing a Destro heavy compared to a DW heavy is clunky AF.

BohnT

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

mDK is going to be just a tad OP with these changes which is why I am puzzled why other classes are receiving sustain and damage nerfs while mDK is snare removal and sustain buffs

Stam DK is very lackluster but preforms extremely well in niche situations. I'd like to see it have more viability is more situations

mDK has the worst sustain in the game. It desperately needed sustain buffs. As for snare removal, unless snare immunity is also granted it's pretty useless in open-world PvP.

Stamplar is worse by far. Sustaining with magdk can be hard especially in heavy but it's doable in light.

The snare removal alone is a joke, imagine you are in caltrops or another dk put a dot on you

To be fair, Stamplar sustain (and I have an AR 46 Stamplar) is not as bad as a lot of people make it out to be. The problem is it's very feast-or-famine if you're relying only on Repentance (Repent nerf still one of the dumbest nerfs in the history of this game).

As a Stamplar you NEED to be heavy attacking regularly throughout your rotations. That's a big source of your sustain. Maybe if S/B heavy attacks restored Magicka mDK sustain would be about the same--but it doesn't.

You really need to test one stave on magdk that helps so much it's crazy, best thing is a destro stave with ele drain. I sustain with 1400 mag regen on a destro/ restro build and it's really easy.
Well stamplar has the worst sustain is just based on facts.
4% cost reduction is all they have as in combat sustain nothing else that another class didn't have access to.

Kilandros

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

mDK is going to be just a tad OP with these changes which is why I am puzzled why other classes are receiving sustain and damage nerfs while mDK is snare removal and sustain buffs

Stam DK is very lackluster but preforms extremely well in niche situations. I'd like to see it have more viability is more situations

mDK has the worst sustain in the game. It desperately needed sustain buffs. As for snare removal, unless snare immunity is also granted it's pretty useless in open-world PvP.

Stamplar is worse by far. Sustaining with magdk can be hard especially in heavy but it's doable in light.

The snare removal alone is a joke, imagine you are in caltrops or another dk put a dot on you

To be fair, Stamplar sustain (and I have an AR 46 Stamplar) is not as bad as a lot of people make it out to be. The problem is it's very feast-or-famine if you're relying only on Repentance (Repent nerf still one of the dumbest nerfs in the history of this game).

As a Stamplar you NEED to be heavy attacking regularly throughout your rotations. That's a big source of your sustain. Maybe if S/B heavy attacks restored Magicka mDK sustain would be about the same--but it doesn't.

You really need to test one stave on magdk that helps so much it's crazy, best thing is a destro stave with ele drain. I sustain with 1400 mag regen on a destro/ restro build and it's really easy.
Well stamplar has the worst sustain is just based on facts.
4% cost reduction is all they have as in combat sustain nothing else that another class didn't have access to.

I've been running back bar Destro on mDK for awhile but only for Elemental Drain. But what I'm saying is you can't compare the sustain on an Destro to the stam sustain from DW because landing a Destro heavy is simply too clunky.

Zophix

Dragonknights are the stand your ground class and thus have no form of escape, so why not remove snaring and immobilizing effects to better hold their ground?

venomsky

why magdk got so many healing skills? why GB cost magica?
Why magma shell cost 200 ult? So many questions for Wrobel….

BohnT

venomsky wrote: »

why magdk got so many healing skills? why GB cost magica?
Why magma shell cost 200 ult? So many questions for Wrobel….

Because everyone needs to be able to everything except for stamdk in pvp that can only tank but nothing more.
It's just another way to remove class identity by making them all the same

Sabbathius

I really dislike how stamina DK is getting heavily ignored. They've been bottom shelf for a while in PvP now, and ZOS (Wrobel?) seem to think it's just fine and dandy. And the class still continues to suffer from all the same issues as always - low range, no execute, low mobility. Combined, these are difficult to deal with.

Anti_Virus

I told ya. Your feedback is irrelevant If you want to play stam DK you will be a tank if you don't like it oh well.

Kronuxx

Anti_Virus wrote: »

I told ya. Your feedback is irrelevant If you want to play stam DK you will be a tank if you don't like it oh well.

That's the problem. Stam DK doesn't even have tanking as an identity anymore. In this patch, NB and Sorc do it very well. @ZOS_Wrobel , I had posted these suggestions in a recent thread to help improve Stam DK which for some odd reason you almost completely neglected this patch. Did one too many Stam DK's melt you in PvP in the past?

1) Combustion passive shouldn't be a proc chance based on a status effect. Status effects don't work on wards (magicka shields). In addition, status effects have the highest chance to proc with weapon enchants. This also translates to the fact, that the highest chance of proccing status effects (weapon enchants) do not affect argonian/bosmer and dunmer due to their inherit resistance to poison/fire resistance relatively speaking. In addition the combustion passive should be based on applying poison and fire damage and not dependent the status effect. That would make the passive much more useful, in addition the original damage amp of 50% of the combustion passive should be kept in addition to what zos is adding now. It should not be replaced with this new change.

2) Elder Dragon is still completely useless of a passive. 5% Health recovery is useless. I repeat, it is completely useless. Not only is it useless but it requires the condition of using a draconic ability, which limits build diversity especially for stamina dk's who already have a limited magicka pool (considering that all Draconic abilities are relatively high cost magicka abilities). 5% health recovery for each draconic ability is essentially 32.5 more health recovery every second if you are geared towards Troll King (TK provides 1500 recovery if health drops below 50%. 5% of 1500 is 75, but remember that's 75 health recovery over 2 secs.) So even geared towards high recovery builds it's completely useless of a passive ability. Let's not forget it's also affected by defile, which is part of the current meta in PvP and we all know it.

3) Granting us snare removal with no immunity means nothing. The average Stamina DK magicka pool is 12K. Reflective plate is an extremely high cost magicka ability. With no immunity and because snares are extremely common place, the snare will be applied almost immediately back again. This leaves stamina DK's to recast the ability only 3 times, and each time will be useless as the snare will be reapplied again. And because Stamina DK's have no other utility stamina morphs, with only two that apply dots (venomous claws and noxious breath) this leaves our other utility skills like volatile armor, igneous shields, fossilize extremely difficult to use and captialize on. Especially igneous or in this case the possibly new morph fragmented shields as both are extremely high cost magicka abilities.

I can see 3 things that would help give Stamina DK's both identity and balance.

1) Give the new reflective plate morph a small snare immunity. I'd say 2-3 sec is fine for now.

2) I'd change the Elder Dragon passive to something that you ZOS even promote on character selection screen when you claim DK's are master of arms. I'd do just that. Change it to something like "Master at Arms" or "Strength of the Dragon" or keep it as "Elder Dragon" but change the passive to give physical damage/fire damage bonus where one skill point gives 1% and 2-3% for the second skill point when equipping a draconic ability on the skill bar. This would force DK's to make interesting builds to incoporate their draconic abilities into their skill slots and it would put them on par with the Passive skill damage bonuses of Warden (Advanced Species)/Sorc (Energized)/Templar (Balanced Warrior and Piercing Spear)/Nightblade (Master Assassin) as all have passives that grant some form of damage bonus for both their stamina and magicka counterparts. Dragonknights are the only class that not only have a time limited weapon damage buff, but they are also the only class with a completely meaningless passive. You could save yourself the two skill points and it would have no bearing on your overall survivability or performance. I cannot see, for any good justifiable reason as to why the Elder Dragon Passive still exists.

3) Give stamina DK's another poison morph (or even something unique, that's different than just a poison whip. @Vaoh posted an amazing suggestion below). We only have two, both of which are dots, and both of which are easily cleansed or countered (when a NB goes cloak, a templar purges, a sorc who shield stacks, a warden will out-heal unless defiled). The stamina morph can occupy the place of the Molten Whip morph. I don't know of one DK, whether it be Magicka or Stamina, worth their grain of salt who even uses this completely and utterly useless morph. If you are concerned about PvE dps, just do what you have done to Stamina Wardens. Give the poison spammable morph a slight delay. Make it akin to subterranean assault (perhaps not as clunky or slow). At least this will allow for more skill required to implement in rotation with PvE dps and even in PvP.


I implore you guys to please re-evaluate these 3 scenarios I have talked about. And if for any god-forsaken completely biased reason @ZOS_Wrobel , if you think that somehow your justification of what you think Dragonknights should be and shouldn't be is the correct way of thinking, then at the very least, change that god awful waste of 2 skill-points passive Elder Dragon.

4) P.S. The World In Ruin passive which grants any of the DK's fire and poison Area of Effect abilities an additional 6% is another completely useless passive for Stamina Dragonknights. Our only poison AOE is Noxious Breath. Noxious Breath has several issues. It's hit box is extremely wonky, thus your ability to have it land on a player becomes a guessing game. Did it land? Did it not? I have to depend on my opponents debuff bars to see if it lands, which is essentially about 50% of the time. And it doesn't miss because the opponent dodges, or moves out of the way. No, it's just that the hit box mechanics for this ability is that bad. The other issue is that its dot is *** poor in terms of damage output, and the Major Fracture debuff is much better utilized on something like Ransack, which is just as cheap, deals more burst damage, and is much easier to land. So in essence, World In Ruin, is another useless passive for Stamina DK. We only have one AOE poison which is difficult to land due to bad hit box mechanics, and when it does, I've basically wasted 2x the amount of stamina just to have it hit, and wasted all that dps pressure I could have been applying to my opponent. [\quote]

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@Kronuxx

Save your time dude. I don't think Mr. Wrobel is concerned with the Stam Dk whether he believes its fine, or he doesn't care I hope it isn't the latter.

I just wish he or atleast someone in the combat dev team enter one of these Stam DK threads and explain why they will or will not make changes to the class and in general a statement on the stamina DK.

I am fully aware that stam DK is excellent in PVE dps parses but they are really lacking in the PVP department some parity between pve and pvp stam dk would be nice but it might be to diffcult to do(I don't know how it would) or they are content like how 2h is bad in pve but decent in pvp.

I won't demand changes but at this point it feels like we are being ignored I usually like some transparency with the dev teams

Savos_Saren

My immediate feedback would be:

#1. Empowering Chains needs to be remorphed into something that doesn't grant the new version of "empower". Empowering chains is usually used by damage dealing (not tanky) mDKs for mobility. Most damage dealing mDKs are wearing light armor and a SnB for the resistances. Two light attacks from a SnB (stamina) aren't nearly as effective for a magicka toon. Perhaps just make the Chain cause minor vunerability? It's only 10% damage on the next attack. That way, any user of Empowering Chains can benefit (whether they slot a SnB, Destro, Resto, DW, etc). It will make it more effective for magicka and stamina DKs alike.

#2. Reflected attacks from using Wings are reflected back at us when we have Eclipse/Total Dark on us. Last I checked- skills aren't supposed to be re-reflected. (Otherwise, DKs would be playing ping-pong with attacks at each other.) This is most likely a bug.

#3. Reflective plate absolutely needs a small immunity to snare removal. Otherwise, you're instantly re-snared and you have to recast the ability. That's 3780 magicka per flap. Stamina and Magicka DKs can't afford that.

WillhelmBlack

So you nerfed resource return on ulti but you added resource return on a status effect?

Wot

Veg

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Dragonknight combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

Is it okay to post un_listed videos showing only base game changes for the purpose of giving feedback to the devs to change base game abilities?

I have a 46 second video showing only wings being cast in rawlk area with no summereset content present. It really shows just how useless the snare removal is (it's literally 100% useless and technically nerfs the morph it took).

Savos_Saren

Veg wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Dragonknight combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

Is it okay to post un_listed videos showing only base game changes for the purpose of giving feedback to the devs to change base game abilities?

I have a 46 second video showing only wings being cast in rawlk area with no summereset content present. It really shows just how useless the snare removal is (it's literally 100% useless and technically nerfs the morph it took).

@Veg
Could I get you to do a video on our wings getting attacks re-reflected back at us while we have Eclipse/Total Dark on us? I don't believe that's working as intended. You just need a Templar to hit you with Eclipse/Total Dark, you cast Wings, and they spam you with Piercing Javelin. You basically commit suicide while using a defense skill.

Veg

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Dragonknight combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

Is it okay to post un_listed videos showing only base game changes for the purpose of giving feedback to the devs to change base game abilities?

I have a 46 second video showing only wings being cast in rawlk area with no summereset content present. It really shows just how useless the snare removal is (it's literally 100% useless and technically nerfs the morph it took).

@Veg
Could I get you to do a video on our wings getting attacks re-reflected back at us while we have Eclipse/Total Dark on us? I don't believe that's working as intended. You just need a Templar to hit you with Eclipse/Total Dark, you cast Wings, and they spam you with Piercing Javelin. You basically commit suicide while using a defense skill.

Assuming we can share base game content I may get around to it. I tried making a fuss about all the bugs with wings a few patches ago but it never did anything. Wrobel seems to just ignore any bugs that he decides arent too damaging to the game. There's no way all the feed back about wings over the past year has gone un noticed and now we see something being done to wings that isnt fixing the bugs so dont hope for anything.

Savos_Saren

Also, am I missing something? With both points into Combustion- you get 500 magicka/stamina once ever 5 seconds (if you get the burning/poisoned proc)... is that really significant? Doesn't that add up to 100 extra magicka/stamina a second?

So, your regen moves from 1700 to 1800?

That doesn't seem like a lot. Is there some sort of modifiers involved that makes this skyrocket higher?

From the patch notes:

Combustion: This passive ability now also restores 250/500 Magicka or Stamina to you when you apply the Burning or Poisoned status effects to an enemy. These effects can occur once every 5 seconds.

Is that supposed to be 500 Magicka/Stamina per second? I don't understand the hype.