I won't argue about the idea of defining pay2win, but I kudos on all the math work Patience is a virtue for sure, and so are crafter friends who can make you what you need without spending money! (Just be sure to pay them!!)

idk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The fallacy of arguments OP presents is they fail to demonstrate that the item purchased from the crown store provides the character with weapons and gear that make them more powerful than they can with gear obtainable in the game.

He/She goes through a bunch of words and some numbers that really just hide the fact that OP has not demonstrated how this makes a player stronger.

In just two sentences I will completely obliterate the entire OP.

If I need something crafted I can join a guild and ask for someone to craft me the item and ask for a set bonus or trait.
If I need to change a trait of a piece of gear I have I can learn the trait in a matter hour 8 hours. The few traits total per piece would take less than a couple days per piece of armor an weapons.

As someone who ahs all traits learned on 4 characters, almost 5, I certainly fail to see the light of OPs argument.

Hi, I'm the OP.

I don't recall ever calling Research Scrolls Pay to Win. What I did do is work out the math of Research Scrolls compared to patiently researching and offer that as an addition to the debate.

My own belief, as I've stated later in the thread and on other threads, is that the research scrolls arent pay to win because being a 9 trait crafters doesn't give a player anything they couldn't get through other players or using an alt to leanr traits for transmutation.

You and I agree. ive made exactly the same argument in other threads. My point in this thread, however, was to talk about the MATH of researching vs in game scrolls vs crown store scrolls because nobody on either side of the argument seemed to know the math.

If you want to argue with the people who thing crown store scrolls are Pay to win, argue with someone else. I think crown store scrolls are "pay-through-the-nose".

Read your own title. It is perfectly clear and without doubt that you are questioning the P2W aspect.

TBH, I did not read the entire lengthy OP. Looked over it to see what you see the number are. However, based on what you just said it you merely went for the cheap click bait title it seems. BTW, it never matters how much the item costs, pay-through the nose means nothing.

1. This is the second discussion thread of mine to which you've fired off a quick response without bothering to read the entire thing. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here. Last time, you'd have gotten the answer to your problem if you'd bothered to read the whole post. This time, I know there's a lot of math, but its a little strange trying to discuss what I actually said or didn't say in the post with someone who didn't actually read the post and who's apparently making snap judgments from my title, you know?

2. As I said in a post a little lower from the OP, I considered giving it a very academic sounding title like "the Math on Rsearch scrolls: comparing the virtues of patience, in-game scrolls, and Crown Research Scrolls"

Then I thought, "Nah, that doesn't sound like anything anyone wants to read." The thread title might be click-bait, but it gets read AND it ties into the reason I did the math in the first place. I did the math because no one complaining about pay to win seemed to have any idea of the comparisons, and I thought it made an interesting addition to the debate ggoing on, as I mentioned in the post itself.

I answered my own question for myself. Pay to Win? More like pay through the nose for convenience. Other people can draw their own conclusion from the data.

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Could it be that its so expensive because they dont want everybody to buy the scroll. Afterall those who do it in game stay probably longer then those who spent the crowns.

I do think its expensive because ZOS knows it takes somewhat around 1-2 years to become a full 9-trait crafter. $2000 to instantly become a 9 trait crafters vs 1-2 years patiently researching starts to look like a balanced, but still expensive method for players to catch up conveniently.

I was rather amused by the notion of saving 34 crowns every hour I research patiently.

Some people burn 300 bucks on a saturday night on entertainment, some people spend thousands on a holliday. So why cant people spend money in a game they love?

Sgtmeg wrote: »

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Some people burn 300 bucks on a saturday night on entertainment, some people spend thousands on a holliday. So why cant people spend money in a game they love?

Completely agreed, but we can't forget about companies encouraging bad spending habits either. You wouldn't spend 300 dollars EVERY Saturday night, for example. Overspending, price jacking and encouraging gambling habits are real issues too. Gotta have a balance where you can spend, but smartly.

True, banning crates though wont happen. There might be a change so they tell us what percentage the droprate of items are but that doesnt save those who are gambling addicts. Is that a problem Zenimax should solve though?

My only point was that some people see certain prices for items as greed and blame those that have no problem with it for the existance of those prices. Would i pay 13.000 for a house? Nope, my wife though sees no problem with the price. Would she do that every day, of course not. But people blaming her because she sees the price as ok and others dont, is stupid.
We know what we can spend and work hard for the money so we can spend it.

I've updated the original post to include a discussion of ZOS' new Research Scroll for ALL research in the new Scalecaller Crown Crates.



Its nearly impossible to do the math on cost-effectiveness because ZOS does not release the gambling odds for Crown Crates.

Still, I usually get about 4 crown gems per crate (small sample size because I only get the free crates). At that rate, I'd need 25 crates to get the 100 crown gems necessary to buy the All Research scroll. Its cheaper to buy 30 crates, so if I don't get an All Research scroll in those 30 crates, the cost of buying the scroll with crown gems is 10,000 crowns. If I do get a scroll, obviously, that's lower in cost. In contrast, three 7-day scrolls costs 7,500 crowns.

TLDR: ZOS, releasing the odds on Crown Crates would make math people like me happy.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

Time is a factor in an MMORPG. When you can cut your time investment down, that is pay2win.

How much $$$ does the poor man save by being patient and doing it the normal way, ultimately reaching same level as the rich man, with lots more cash in his pocket as a result?

Time is a factor in MMO's. I would argue that the the poor man is likely to end up more skilled because of the additional time invested. And how much time did the rich man really save, since it take so terribly long to hit CP160?

It is the time invested that leads to the game understanding and player skill. Not the gear. Not the CP level. Not the trait craft.

The rich man's not going to magically need 100 less hours learning vMA or anything else. He's simply going to get there a little faster.

Your anecdote may sound plausible, but some flaws remain.

EDIT: The other factor your story neglects is that part of why the rich man probably didn't become a rich man through shelling out unnecessary $ as opposed to being patient and investing his time.

Being rich is not going to get you into vma any sooner...

Maybe by buying ambrosia(s) to level up faster but in no way shape or form can you buy your way to a vma clear.

I mean look at something as simple as stacking potion how its made to bloat your inventory so you have to buy extra inventory space which granted you can buy for in game gold from a pack merchant for alot of gold when you start getting to those high inventory space numbers OR you can buy space from the crown store all for convenience of the player lol and money ofcourse
. They could easily do the same as they do with poison just one stack as long as its the same potion same quality and level but no potions apparently only need to be stacked by 100 lol This is just magicka mind you lets not for get theres health and stamina and i believe when you craft the potions it does stack by 200 but which is still not how it should stack .