Pay to Win? The Math on Research Scrolls

Reedx

I mean there is only three crafted sets that matter Julianos/Rage and Mara and Mara is for PvE so its Julianos and Rage its about, and those are 6 traits witch you most likely have by the time you reached lvl 50 if you are a new player

So if this is pay to win and someone believes that and actually spend real money on this, then you are a fool, a sheep who believes anyone

Azurya

VaranisArano wrote: »

So someone in another thread was complaining about Pay to Win Research Scrolls in the Crown Store, and I found myself thinking about the math of researching traits.

Final Thoughts:
Every hour a super patient person without ESO+ researches is worth about 34 crowns.
If you are going to go hog-wild and buy ALL the scrolls, patience saves about 20K Crowns. Save yourself the crowns.
it costs 300,000+ Crowns to become a Master Crafter with only Crown Store Research Scrolls. That's about $2000 if the crown packs aren't on sale (PC/NA prices).

As usual, if I've screwed up my math or misunderstood something, please feel free to point it out politely. As I've noted, some of the numbers of scrolls or exact cost might differ slightly if you choose to research items a little differently than I did when doing the math.

can you pls explain what P2W has to do with the research of traits??????????????????
and pls short!

VaranisArano

Whitebeerd wrote: »

I mean there is only three crafted sets that matter Julianos/Rage and Mara and Mara is for PvE so its Julianos and Rage its about, and those are 6 traits witch you most likely have by the time you reached lvl 50 if you are a new player

So if this is pay to win and someone believes that and actually spend real money on this, then you are a fool, a sheep who believes anyone

I could see Julianos, Hunding's Rage, Eyes of Mara, but also Nightmother's Gaze and Kagrenac's. Twice Born Star and Tava's Blessing are a far cry from what they used to be. Fortified Brass, Shacklebreaker, Seducaer all still get some use.

But even if those armor sets were BIS, you could still get a 9-trait crafter to make them for you. So I totally agree. Anyone spending real money to become a 9-trait crafter is being foolish.

RinaldoGandolphi

@Raideen

Your right, but your wasting your time here. I commend you trying to enlighten folks.

Being able to bypass game progression to get access to 9 traited gear via real cash is of course P2W, a "soft form" of it mind you, but still is nontheless. Folks will come up with all sorts of crazy off the wall excuses and rationalizations why its not.

People will make excuses for things they have an emotional attachment too, its just how it is.

VaranisArano

Azurya wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So someone in another thread was complaining about Pay to Win Research Scrolls in the Crown Store, and I found myself thinking about the math of researching traits.

Final Thoughts:
Every hour a super patient person without ESO+ researches is worth about 34 crowns.
If you are going to go hog-wild and buy ALL the scrolls, patience saves about 20K Crowns. Save yourself the crowns.
it costs 300,000+ Crowns to become a Master Crafter with only Crown Store Research Scrolls. That's about $2000 if the crown packs aren't on sale (PC/NA prices).

As usual, if I've screwed up my math or misunderstood something, please feel free to point it out politely. As I've noted, some of the numbers of scrolls or exact cost might differ slightly if you choose to research items a little differently than I did when doing the math.

can you pls explain what P2W has to do with the research of traits??????????????????
and pls short!

I don't think P2W has anything to do with research. Other people do. At some point the math of it came up and I decided to figure it out.

There. Short.

Longer Version: Other people than me insist that the addition of Crown Research Scrolls better than what we have in game are Pay-To-Win. But none of them knew the math. I didn't either. I wanted to find out so I compared the time it takes to research to the time it takes to use in-game scrolls to the cost of using Crown Research Scrolls.

Its takes somewhat over a year to research purely through waiting.
Its takes around half a year to research with in-game scrolls, roughly 500 of them.
It takes 300,000+ Crowns to become a 9-trait crafter with crown scrolls, roughly $2000.

As far as I'm concerned, that's less "pay to win" and more "pay through the nose for convenience."

Ajaxduo

I don't believe it is P2W at all, it is purely convenience. I have achieved 9 traits on most of my toons without using any scrolls, even the in game ones.

What do you 'win'? 9 traits? To craft something that is already readily available to the majority of players? You don't suddenly become OP or win the game so claiming it as P2W is laughable. There aren't many strong 9 trait sets, most of the best crafted sets are 6 traits anyway (Acuity, Julianos, Hundings, Night Mothers).

Now I would agree that the whole concept of 'Pay 2 Skip' is appalling, dragging out a mechanic just so people drop some cash on the game. It reminds me of those really cheesy Facebook games (Farmville lul). I believe it would of been better if they just nerfed research time across the board, this would help new players a lot. However this is Zo$'s product so they will monetize it as they see fit, in the end there is an alternative (Waiting for research, someone crafting for you). I have played some modern MMO's where crafted items are BoP etc, so ESO is far from the worst in this regard.

RinaldoGandolphi

Hokiewa wrote: »

Still no facts, just opinions. It's been clear what your opinion is for months. Since you love to state how long you've played MMOs, convenience items (time gate bypasses that do not contain completed gear or skill sets and do not provide access to anything that any other player can not access) HAVE never been considered P2W by the "millions of other players that have played MMOs over the last two decades". Now, commence accusing me of being a paid shill for ZOS.

And really, using Urban Dictionary as some sort of definitive proof that your opinion equates fact? Very amusing.

Nope, but paying for crafting traits to be able to craft one of the BIS set like Eternal Hunt for Stam Blades in PVP most certainly is.

Those scrolls are NOT convenience items...Convenience items are potions, horse riding lessons, mounts, costumes, etc....NOT items that allow you to bypass trait research and in essence give you access to craft 9 trait BIS gear like Eternal Hunt.

This is a "soft form" of pay to win, but its a form of it nonetheless.Its just not as easily blatant, which is the marketing team's intention. Instead of putting Eternal Hunt for example in the Crown Store, they just put the time method its locked behind in the Crown Store instead...the fact this has gone completely over your head is just puzzling. Even the Horse training lesson in the crown store are a soft form of P2W, but they are at least somewhat acceptable to the masses as they don't directly impact much.

I'll give ZOS marketing team credit, they marketed this perfectly...the fact they got folks like you confused and defending it is PERFECT for their marketing team! They have to be giving High Fives in the office after reading this...my hats off to them, well done!

The definition of P2W meaning actual gear or power ups that can be bought for real cash is an anachronistic definition, a definition that has not caught up with modern times. The new P2W is the "soft forms" of it like your seeing now. It has evolved and folks clinging to the old anachronistic definitions of P2W are being left behind...a money making industry always adapts, and players are always left behind....

Merlin13KAGL

Thread also doesn't take into account that you won't need every item in 9 trait initially.

So, at least for personal use, you can be effectively a 9 trait crafter much sooner for purposes of what your alts actually need made. The remaining items can be filled in leisurely with no real downside.

If you want to get down to brass tacks, you could have multiple alts researching their appropriate talents - one doing Light Armor , one Medium, one Heavy, one Woodworking. You could then fill in the blanks of the other at a later time. This method also saves on the initial skillpoint requirement per character, as well.

OP, appreciate the work that went into figuring this out - I'll take your word for the #'s.

Final determination is: It's still not P2W, though...

VaranisArano

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Thread also doesn't take into account that you won't need every item in 9 trait initially.

So, at least for personal use, you can be effectively a 9 trait crafter much sooner for purposes of what your alts actually need made. The remaining items can be filled in leisurely with no real downside.

If you want to get down to brass tacks, you could have multiple alts researching their appropriate talents - one doing Light Armor , one Medium, one Heavy, one Woodworking. You could then fill in the blanks of the other at a later time. This method also saves on the initial skillpoint requirement per character, as well.

OP, appreciate the work that went into figuring this out - I'll take your word for the #'s.

Final determination is: It's still not P2W, though...

One interesting thing I found is that its most efficient and cheapest to research the first three traits just by waiting. As long as you don't want to be a 9-trait crafter, you can research just about everything you need to know for transmutation (about 3-4 traits) on everything in around 2 weeks, if you have the relevant passives. It'd take you about 2 months to become a 6-trait crafter on everything to make things like Hunding's Rage or Julianos.

So as you say, you really can become an effective crafter quite quickly, even on one character with all the passives.

Kodrac

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@Raideen

Your right, but your wasting your time here. I commend you trying to enlighten folks.

Being able to bypass game progression to get access to 9 traited gear via real cash is of course P2W, a "soft form" of it mind you, but still is nontheless. Folks will come up with all sorts of crazy off the wall excuses and rationalizations why its not.

People will make excuses for things they have an emotional attachment too, its just how it is.

Crazy off the wall excuses? You mean like logic and reasoning? Yeah OK.

SGT_Wolfe101st

I wont jump in on the P2W or not aspect of this post, but can we all just go back a step and look at the math. I know it is purely optional and I doubt many, if any player would go this route, but Zo$ has added, with a strait face, an option to spend $2000.00 as a convenience. Whether or not you think it is P2W or not, this is absurd. It isn't the convenience that bothers me, it is the greed that bothers me. 300,000 CROWNS!!!

I was looking forward to these scrolls, I am at the end of this 1.5/2 year grind and thought, "A couple of these bad boys and I am finished..." and then the price was released, save 15 days on research or buy a brand new AAA game. The pricing strategy is shameful, the question of P2W or not is moot.

KraziJoe

I win every time I play this GAME. Just by it being available to play and keeping me entertained for 30 minutes or 8 hours, I win...

DieAlteHexe

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

I wont jump in on the P2W or not aspect of this post, but can we all just go back a step and look at the math. I know it is purely optional and I doubt many, if any player would go this route, but Zo$ has added, with a strait face, an option to spend $2000.00 as a convenience. Whether or not you think it is P2W or not, this is absurd. It isn't the convenience that bothers me, it is the greed that bothers me. 300,000 CROWNS!!!

I was looking forward to these scrolls, I am at the end of this 1.5/2 year grind and thought, "A couple of these bad boys and I am finished..." and then the price was released, save 15 days on research or buy a brand new AAA game. The pricing strategy is shameful, the question of P2W or not is moot.

I guess I've grown cynical in my old age but the pricing, whilst extraordinarily high, doesn't faze me (full disclosure; probably because hell would freeze over before I'd spend it for that). People can be in a huge hurry and for profit businesses will offer a path that requires just chucking money at things. This is nothing new. Time will tell if these prices are indeed "too high" because if no one buys, it's not helping their bottom line and they will make adjustments.

Whatever the market will bear and caveat emptor and all that.

starkerealm

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The definition of P2W meaning actual gear or power ups that can be bought for real cash is an anachronistic definition, a definition that has not caught up with modern times...

Because, as we know, games like Star Wars: Battlefront 2 from last year are not part of modern times. They represent some other era of games, that no longer happen. Now, we have, "soft P2W," because no publisher would directly tie money to direct power, giving a direct advantage to a player if they spent more money than someone else.

Because Electronic Arts doesn't exist. Right.

Kiralyn2000

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Those scrolls are NOT convenience items...Convenience items are potions, horse riding lessons, mounts, costumes, etc....NOT items that allow you to bypass trait research and in essence give you access to craft 9 trait BIS gear like Eternal Hunt.

But how does that make you "win"? You can't make a lot of profit on it, since there's a million other 9-trait crafters out there. And you don't have to be a crafter yourself to get it easily, since.... there's a million other 9-trait crafters out there.

It's not like it's a BoP set, that you can only craft for yourself, requiring you to personally be a 9-t crafter in order to obtain it.


(WoW did that at one point - people complained that there was no profit/benefit in crafting, so they added BoP recipes for crafters to make for themselves as a 'benefit'. Still weren't BiS, though. Great for people who didn't do top-end group PvE, though.)

badmojo

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

Time is a factor in an MMORPG. When you can cut your time investment down, that is pay2win.

Raideen

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

Time is a factor in an MMORPG. When you can cut your time investment down, that is pay2win.

EXACTLY.

jedtb16_ESO

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Hokiewa wrote: »

Still no facts, just opinions. It's been clear what your opinion is for months. Since you love to state how long you've played MMOs, convenience items (time gate bypasses that do not contain completed gear or skill sets and do not provide access to anything that any other player can not access) HAVE never been considered P2W by the "millions of other players that have played MMOs over the last two decades". Now, commence accusing me of being a paid shill for ZOS.

And really, using Urban Dictionary as some sort of definitive proof that your opinion equates fact? Very amusing.

Nope, but paying for crafting traits to be able to craft one of the BIS set like Eternal Hunt for Stam Blades in PVP most certainly is.

Those scrolls are NOT convenience items...Convenience items are potions, horse riding lessons, mounts, costumes, etc....NOT items that allow you to bypass trait research and in essence give you access to craft 9 trait BIS gear like Eternal Hunt.

This is a "soft form" of pay to win, but its a form of it nonetheless.Its just not as easily blatant, which is the marketing team's intention. Instead of putting Eternal Hunt for example in the Crown Store, they just put the time method its locked behind in the Crown Store instead...the fact this has gone completely over your head is just puzzling. Even the Horse training lesson in the crown store are a soft form of P2W, but they are at least somewhat acceptable to the masses as they don't directly impact much.

I'll give ZOS marketing team credit, they marketed this perfectly...the fact they got folks like you confused and defending it is PERFECT for their marketing team! They have to be giving High Fives in the office after reading this...my hats off to them, well done!

The definition of P2W meaning actual gear or power ups that can be bought for real cash is an anachronistic definition, a definition that has not caught up with modern times. The new P2W is the "soft forms" of it like your seeing now. It has evolved and folks clinging to the old anachronistic definitions of P2W are being left behind...a money making industry always adapts, and players are always left behind....

no it isn't.

p2w is, and always has been, about being able to buy some object or attribute for cash that is not available by any other means and gives the player a distinct advantage.

is 9 trait crafting available by other means?

yes.

does being a 9 trait crafter give a player a distinct advantage in this game?

no, and i say that as a 9 trait crafter.

Kiralyn2000

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

See, my first thought when you list out all that is.... but which of them is enjoying themselves more. The guy "buying" his way through the game is skipping the game. The one who can take his time is actually playing it. (well, maybe - they might have bought into the whole 'game begins at CP cap!" foolishness, and is ignoring the game in favor of idiotic grinding).

Enjoyment is the only 'win' here. If the guy going slowly is enjoying himself, and the guy feverishly buying his way to endgame is stressing out about it, I know who I think the 'winner' is.

(and yes, "time is a factor in MMOs". That's why it's called 'pay to convenience')



...perhaps it's just that I'm not a hyper-competitive "game begins at endgame!" type. Playing the game & enjoying yourself is the point. Most of these 'pay to convenience' things are about skipping that playing of the game, so they make little sense to me and only seem like people are paying real $ to harm their game experience. Which doesn't feel like "winning" to me.

(Especially since, as others have pointed out, there's a lot of other things you need to do to actually be able to get those 9 traits, and to actually perform well at 'endgame'. Can't buy your way to skill points, and between copying that perfect build and all the points you need to actually craft that endgame gear, you're gonna need a lot of them.)

Saturnana

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@Raideen

Your right, but your wasting your time here. I commend you trying to enlighten folks.

Being able to bypass game progression to get access to 9 traited gear via real cash is of course P2W, a "soft form" of it mind you, but still is nontheless. Folks will come up with all sorts of crazy off the wall excuses and rationalizations why its not.

People will make excuses for things they have an emotional attachment too, its just how it is.

Paying real money to bypass game mechanics is not pay to win in this case, as it doesn't give you any advantage over people who haven't spent that real money on bypassing those same game mechanics (hence no 'winning'). It's paying a ludicrous amount of real money to progress faster than others in being able to craft certain items. Items that anyone can buy with in-game gold.

I am very, very close to becoming a nine-trait crafter and having those traits did not earn me any gold so far. If anything, it only cost me a lot. Paying around $2000,- just to be able to craft those traits yourself in a more timely manner is more like pay-to-be-swindled-out-of-your-hard-earned-cash.

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

Time is a factor in an MMORPG. When you can cut your time investment down, that is pay2win.

I still fail to see how that is paying to win. What are you winning exactly? What are you able to gain by spending real money that other people are unable to get? What is your advantage, other than getting there a little sooner?

starkerealm

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

Time is a factor in an MMORPG. When you can cut your time investment down, that is pay2win.

Well, the 1m gold is mostly a wash. There isn't a convenient way to buy gold in the store. If you've got 1m dollars in the bank, you're not flush, enough, with cash to really chase the mimic stones to stahlrim shards conversion. So, nothing happens.

VMA is a similar situation. There's nothing you can buy in the store that will make that easier.

Your wealthier player may burn XP scrolls to help with leveling, and get to 50 faster. But, even that doesn't ensure they'll clear VMA sooner.

And, even the bugbear of the moment, the research scrolls won't allow them to simply sprint their way to unlimited power.

Selling soft P2W would be if gold upgrade mats, nirnhoned research items, and transmutation gems were in the crates.

Kiralyn2000

lnsane wrote: »

I am very, very close to becoming a nine-trait crafter and having those traits did not earn me any gold so far. If anything, it only cost me a lot. Paying around $2000,- just to be able to craft those traits yourself in a more timely manner is more like pay-to-be-swindled-out-of-your-hard-earned-cash.

Yep. If this were a new game, and the expense would allow you to gather a significant portion of the game's wealth & dominate the economy for months? Then there could be a 'win' argument to be made. (would probably also require a central auction for you to price-control)

In a long-established game, with lots of other maxed crafters out there, and a decentralized trading system? Nah. That 9-trait crafting doesn't get you a damn thing except not having to find a dude to make you something.

(I'm on the halfway through 8->9 traits. Could have been there sooner, but I've not felt the desire to spend gold on the Nirnhoned items to research. I'll get there eventually.)

lucky_Sage

I don't think it matter anyone whp would pay the way up to nine trait craft is slim its cost way to much. this game has been out for a while its easy now to find master crafter only reason to lvl up crafting now is alchemy then just to 40 on armor and weapon crafting to upgrade to gold. maybe to 50 if want certain motifs for outfits.

if some told me they spend to max crafting up craft the start id laugh the call them stupid because it would cost more than I make in a month

badmojo

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

See, my first thought when you list out all that is.... but which of them is enjoying themselves more. The guy "buying" his way through the game is skipping the game. The one who can take his time is actually playing it. (well, maybe - they might have bought into the whole 'game begins at CP cap!" foolishness, and is ignoring the game in favor of idiotic grinding).

Enjoyment is the only 'win' here. If the guy going slowly is enjoying himself, and the guy feverishly buying his way to endgame is stressing out about it, I know who I think the 'winner' is.

(and yes, "time is a factor in MMOs". That's why it's called 'pay to convenience')



...perhaps it's just that I'm not a hyper-competitive "game begins at endgame!" type. Playing the game & enjoying yourself is the point. Most of these 'pay to convenience' things are about skipping that playing of the game, so they make little sense to me and only seem like people are paying real $ to harm their game experience. Which doesn't feel like "winning" to me.

(Especially since, as others have pointed out, there's a lot of other things you need to do to actually be able to get those 9 traits, and to actually perform well at 'endgame'. Can't buy your way to skill points, and between copying that perfect build and all the points you need to actually craft that endgame gear, you're gonna need a lot of them.)

Did the trait research process add a lot of enjoyment to your eso experience? Because it just seemed like wasted time for me. That time spent searching out and buying reasonably priced items items to research was time I could have spent doing more enjoyable activities and time I could have been improving my skills. The millionaire would still have to find items to research, but gold would be less of a time investment than it is for the poor man, so items would be found quicker and the cost would have less of an impact. If you dont have to pay for consumables, mount training, xp drinks, etc you would end up with more money to burn, and less of a need to spend time accquiring gold.

Point is there are plenty of activities in ESO that do not directly increase the fun factor for most players, but are a means to an enjoyable end. Spending crowns cuts down the amount of time you need to spend doing the work in order to get to the more enjoyable parts.

I am not complaining that I have to do things that arent my favorite things to do, because that is part of the grind that is this game. But it feels like pay2win when a millionaire can skip a lot of that and go to the enjoyment quicker. The price it costs to skip those things is too high for me to justify, but I am not a millionaire.

When I look at if something is pay2win I only look at the extremes. Will all the money in the world help someone get ahead of me? Then its p2w.

ghastley

If the game had a rising bar for play that you needed to keep up with, then convenience factors like this could become pay to win. But ZOS nerfs play to keep that from happening. The elitists who were here first complain every time that hoi polloi are in their playpen, but thankfully that gets ignored.

The only thing in ESO that looks remotely pay to win to me is the craft bag. And that's only for one aspect of the game, that can be ignored if you choose.

BuddyAces

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

Time is a factor in an MMORPG. When you can cut your time investment down, that is pay2win.

So? Who cares if that person hits cp cap first. As other folks in the thread have pointed out, NOTHING to make your character better is locked behind a paywall. What you are doing is making up arguments to support some wild theory that you seem to have.

You are talking about TIME in an MMO. You do not "win" by getting to CP cap before someone else, or hitting a million gold first, or whatever made up argument you concoct next. What you are talking about is jealousy and that's a personal problem, not a p2w problem. I don't recall anyone getting anything for getting everything I got before me, there were no prizes given for that kind of thing.

You can voice your displeasure on these things all you want for whatever reason but you can not call them pay to win.

edit:
I think these things are completely stupid btw, wouldn't buy one myself.

ClockworkCityBugs

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, my first thought when you list out all that is.... but which of them is enjoying themselves more. The guy "buying" his way through the game is skipping the game.

skipping?
its not skipping its also playing
because developers designed game that way
means they think its also playing the game - buying everything in crown store

DaveMoeDee

The term pay-to-win has made this discussion stupid. People are so hung up on the word.

So long as paying money only allows people to end up the same place as everyone else faster and not farther, I really don't care. The game has to make money. If someone can get to the same end state faster than I can by spending money, good for them. And good for the game continuing. So long as I can get to the same end state without throwing money at convenience items.

People trying to define P2W are wasting their time. It is a pointless endeavor. We can't even agree what "win" is. Differentiating between "convenience items" and p2w is silly. Since BiS gear can be bought with gold as spending real world money can get you gold (by not having to use gold on horse leveling, for example, and selling motifs instead of using) and more XP, clearly the crown store can help get you to the end of the game with top gear. But even if it gets you there, you are no more powerful than someone who got the same gear through playing. In no way is the game being broken by requiring spending money to be competitive. It is just splitting new players into those who get to the end fast and those who get there slow. You might not like that, but it would be silly to put that in the same category as games where you can't even get top items without directly buying with cash and where new top cash gear is regularly released.

neverwalk

Cheaters to learning TRAITS will PAY out the BUTT for cheating. If Zos was to add a Dagger to game with a tool-tip of 3,000 weapon damage for sale in Crown store for 6,000 crowns THAT would be PAY TO WIN.

VaranisArano

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, my first thought when you list out all that is.... but which of them is enjoying themselves more. The guy "buying" his way through the game is skipping the game.

skipping?
its not skipping its also playing
because developers designed game that way
means they think its also playing the game - buying everything in crown store

I'm not sure how spending 340,000 crowns to get enough crown research scrolls to complete ALL your research as fast as you can collect and change research items constitutes playing the game.

Maybe collecting the items to research or at least the gold to buy them is playing the game, but I'm not sure that using the Crown Research Scrolls is playing the game.