Pay to Win? The Math on Research Scrolls

DaveMoeDee

VaranisArano wrote: »

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

See, my first thought when you list out all that is.... but which of them is enjoying themselves more. The guy "buying" his way through the game is skipping the game.

skipping?
its not skipping its also playing
because developers designed game that way
means they think its also playing the game - buying everything in crown store

I'm not sure how spending 340,000 crowns to get enough crown research scrolls to complete ALL your research as fast as you can collect and change research items constitutes playing the game.

Maybe collecting the items to research or at least the gold to buy them is playing the game, but I'm not sure that using the Crown Research Scrolls is playing the game.

If you don't think it is playing the game, then don't play that way. Problem solved.

badmojo

BuddyAces wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

Time is a factor in an MMORPG. When you can cut your time investment down, that is pay2win.

So? Who cares if that person hits cp cap first. As other folks in the thread have pointed out, NOTHING to make your character better is locked behind a paywall. What you are doing is making up arguments to support some wild theory that you seem to have.

You are talking about TIME in an MMO. You do not "win" by getting to CP cap before someone else, or hitting a million gold first, or whatever made up argument you concoct next. What you are talking about is jealousy and that's a personal problem, not a p2w problem. I don't recall anyone getting anything for getting everything I got before me, there were no prizes given for that kind of thing.

You can voice your displeasure on these things all you want for whatever reason but you can not call them pay to win.

edit:
I think these things are completely stupid btw, wouldn't buy one myself.

Who cares? I do, obviously. I am not making up arguments to support a theory. I am simply explaining the things I dislike with the microtransactions in ESO. You can be stubborn about the term pay2win, but that doesnt change the things I dislike about the microtransactions in ESO.

The reason I dislike the resistence to calling this pay2win, is by your definition pay2win in ESO would only be something like a skill line that can only be obtained by crowns. Going by that strict p2w definition, ZOS could add all manner of things to the crown store which are obtainable ingame. They could even add that special skill line for crowns, as long as it could be obtained ingame somehow. But, how easily can it be obtained? What if that skill line was purchasable for 5k crowns, or it had a chance to drop from any npc? What if the chamce to drop was extremely low? It can be obtained ingame, so its not pay2win?

To me there is no strict "this is p2w, this is not" definition because it is all very subjective. The devil is in the details. The players are the only ones in the position to decide if buying something is good for the game or if buying something undermines the gameplay.

badmojo

neverwalk wrote: »

Cheaters to learning TRAITS will PAY out the BUTT for cheating. If Zos was to add a Dagger to game with a tool-tip of 3,000 weapon damage for sale in Crown store for 6,000 crowns THAT would be PAY TO WIN.

What if they also made the drop chance of said dagger extremely low? Like the same as that cipher item. Is there a line where a certain amount of work makes buying the item pay2win?

VaranisArano

badmojo wrote: »

neverwalk wrote: »

Cheaters to learning TRAITS will PAY out the BUTT for cheating. If Zos was to add a Dagger to game with a tool-tip of 3,000 weapon damage for sale in Crown store for 6,000 crowns THAT would be PAY TO WIN.

What if they also made the drop chance of said dagger extremely low? Like the same as that cipher item. Is there a line where a certain amount of work makes buying the item pay2win?

Thats one of the reasons I wanted to do the math.

A purely patient but very all the ball person can be a 9 trait crafter in around a year. Probably 1.5 to 2 years for most people.

With in-game research scrolls, thats down to around half a year. Around 500 scrolls.(about 1.7 million gold according to what I'm currently selling scrolls for on PC/NA)

Near-instant Crown Store Scrolls costs over $2000.

So that's part of what I wanted to figure out, whether or not the cost of is balanced with the amount of time it takes for patient people and the amount of time/cost for the in-game research scrolls.

Thoughts?

Syncronaut

The only reason anyone would want 9 in everything is to be able to craft the specific item to give it to vendor (for writs).

Past 6 traits there isnt anything good at all. (unless you want to gimp yourself or make some special pvp set)

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Set+Bonus+Crafting+Locations

You can get sets more powerfull just by running a specific dungeons. (the only downside is fixing the stats with 50 shards)

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sets


Only thing that we could consider pay to win here is selling writ items. (as it allows you to learn them faster)
But you still need to get the right motifs and buy the writs from other players that you can craft.

badmojo

VaranisArano wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

neverwalk wrote: »

Cheaters to learning TRAITS will PAY out the BUTT for cheating. If Zos was to add a Dagger to game with a tool-tip of 3,000 weapon damage for sale in Crown store for 6,000 crowns THAT would be PAY TO WIN.

What if they also made the drop chance of said dagger extremely low? Like the same as that cipher item. Is there a line where a certain amount of work makes buying the item pay2win?

Thats one of the reasons I wanted to do the math.

A purely patient but very all the ball person can be a 9 trait crafter in around a year. Probably 1.5 to 2 years for most people.

With in-game research scrolls, thats down to around half a year. Around 500 scrolls.(about 1.7 million gold according to what I'm currently selling scrolls for on PC/NA)

Near-instant Crown Store Scrolls costs over $2000.

So that's part of what I wanted to figure out, whether or not the cost of is balanced with the amount of time it takes for patient people and the amount of time/cost for the in-game research scrolls.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are that $2000us seems like an aweful lot to throw at a videogame for something like 9 traits. But I am looking at that price from the perspective of someone who makes under $100k a year.

In ESO a newer player or casual player might think 2000gold is a lot of gold, but for me its nothing. I bring in about 50k gold a day from writs alone, so if something costs 2k gold more, that is nothing to me. Going around looking for a better price to save that 2k gold is valuable time I wasted. Its the reason why traders in good locations can usully charge more for items.

While 2000$ makes getting 9traits instantly cost prohibitive for a lot of players, we have to recognize that some people in this world are very wealthy and the time they spend fiddling with research might be worth more to them than the 2000$.

I do not want my wealth or lack of to play any part in the rat race that is ESO.(Or any game) If someones real world wealth saves them time in a game, that is bad for the videogame. It becomes less like a competition of who can play better and becomes more like Formula1 racing, where the combination of a fat wallet and good driver triumph, while having either of those things but not both, will leave you in the dust.

The fact that it costs so much is exactly why I hate these things in video games. I dont go to highroller tables in the casinos, why would I want that level of investment to be part of the video games I play.

starkerealm

badmojo wrote: »

To me there is no strict "this is p2w, this is not" definition because it is all very subjective.

No, it's necessary to have a meaningful discussion. We've had threads on here where someone was arguing that the costumes. The ****ing costumes! Are pay to win.

There are users who will drag out the term P2W on any store item they want, but don't want to pay for.

So, no, saying, "this is P2W," is vital. When you're talking about something that gives a player direct advantages over non-paying players, that's P2W. Which is why I've said, "if this was 2014, and we didn't have 9 trait crafters all over the place, there'd be a real argument for this." But, it's 2018, I've been a full nine trait for over two years now, and I'm not alone.

That alone starts carving up the P2W argument. There's no advantage for someone who buys these vs. a player who's already here making 9 trait stuff today. In a P2W situation, there would be.

Kiralyn2000

badmojo wrote: »

My thoughts are that $2000us seems like an aweful lot to throw at a videogame for something like 9 traits. But I am looking at that price from the perspective of someone who makes under $100k a year.

Oh, I agree, it's completely nuts. And that's looking at it from a "sane person" perspective. I just don't think it's "p2w".

(Just like I think people throwing hundreds/thousands of $ at mobile 'f2p' collectable card games like Legend of the Cryptids is completely insane, too. Ditto Clash of Clans/etc. Of course, those games being all about competition with other players, throwing wads of cash at the screen actually does have an effect. You can't get to #1 without being a wallet warrior. Unlike ESO.)

VaranisArano

starkerealm wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

To me there is no strict "this is p2w, this is not" definition because it is all very subjective.

No, it's necessary to have a meaningful discussion. We've had threads on here where someone was arguing that the costumes. The ****ing costumes! Are pay to win.

There are users who will drag out the term P2W on any store item they want, but don't want to pay for.

So, no, saying, "this is P2W," is vital. When you're talking about something that gives a player direct advantages over non-paying players, that's P2W. Which is why I've said, "if this was 2014, and we didn't have 9 trait crafters all over the place, there'd be a real argument for this." But, it's 2018, I've been a full nine trait for over two years now, and I'm not alone.

That alone starts carving up the P2W argument. There's no advantage for someone who buys these vs. a player who's already here making 9 trait stuff today. In a P2W situation, there would be.

The argument that costumes were pay to win (I assume it was being able to hide your armor type in PVP in Cyrodiil once disguises were removed from Cyrodiil) went out the window with the Outfit System.

CardboardedBox

How is research pay to win? Most crafted sets are poo anyway.

Cryptical

VaranisArano wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter ).

There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.

Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.

wrong ..... for several reasons that have been stated clearly on the other thread on this topic.

why is there another thread?

Because this one has MATH!

I don't actually think that Crown Research Scrolls are Pay to Win. But nobody talking about them seemed to know the math involves or the cost in time vs crowns. So I decided to find out and post the results for discussion,

Over $2000 to instantly become a 9 trait crafter seems a stiff price to me.

Your math is off.

You based it on 5 cycles to determine the max length of time it requires for total completion, and that is fine. But then when you shifted to determine the costs it appears that you stayed with 5 cycles instead of the actual 4.66 cycles, essentially paying for scrolls that don’t have a trait to accelerate.

badmojo

starkerealm wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

To me there is no strict "this is p2w, this is not" definition because it is all very subjective.

No, it's necessary to have a meaningful discussion. We've had threads on here where someone was arguing that the costumes. The ****ing costumes! Are pay to win.

There are users who will drag out the term P2W on any store item they want, but don't want to pay for.

So, no, saying, "this is P2W," is vital. When you're talking about something that gives a player direct advantages over non-paying players, that's P2W. Which is why I've said, "if this was 2014, and we didn't have 9 trait crafters all over the place, there'd be a real argument for this." But, it's 2018, I've been a full nine trait for over two years now, and I'm not alone.

That alone starts carving up the P2W argument. There's no advantage for someone who buys these vs. a player who's already here making 9 trait stuff today. In a P2W situation, there would be.

If this was 2014 it would be pay2win... therefore there is no strict definition of pay2win, the details matter, in this case it's the timing. That is also from your perspective. A player who bought the game yesterday might disagree and call this pay2win because they have to endure the year long struggle of learning the traits.

I try to remove myself from the equation and look at stuff like this objectively. I have a 9 trait crafter, and it's not that useful to be honest, but that's not the point. The point is getting 9 traits learned is something that most players in this game work towards, and this crown store business lets people essentially skip that. I don't think that's good for the game. It might be good for the finances of the game, but I am not the ZOS accountant, so I couldn't care less about that. We don't know the numbers, this might all just mean bigger bonuses for the CEO, who knows. I certainly don't know if these crown store purchases are keeping the game afloat, but I suspect that our ESO+ alone is more than enough to keep this game afloat. It baffles me why people are defending these microtransactions so passionately. Stockholm syndrom? Did you not play video games prior to the microtransaction trend? They do nothing but bleed us of our money for stuff that used to come included in every video game.

I miss sub-only model. Buy2play was the worst turn this game has taken.

VaranisArano

Cryptical wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter ).

There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.

Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.

wrong ..... for several reasons that have been stated clearly on the other thread on this topic.

why is there another thread?

Because this one has MATH!

I don't actually think that Crown Research Scrolls are Pay to Win. But nobody talking about them seemed to know the math involves or the cost in time vs crowns. So I decided to find out and post the results for discussion,

Over $2000 to instantly become a 9 trait crafter seems a stiff price to me.

Your math is off.

You based it on 5 cycles to determine the max length of time it requires for total completion, and that is fine. But then when you shifted to determine the costs it appears that you stayed with 5 cycles instead of the actual 4.66 cycles, essentially paying for scrolls that don’t have a trait to accelerate.

You're right, I didn't take into account that Woodworking doesn't do the full 5 cycles. Ill have to go back and fix that.

Edited
Actually, no, I'm cofusing myself now.

When I did the time, I used 5 cycles, because that's all you need for time, being able to complete blacksmithing and clothing in the same time, with woodworking taking less time.

When I did the cost of scrolls, I used 2 cycles of woodworking, 5 cycles of Blacksmithing, and 5 Cycles of Clothing because each craft uses unique scrolls. The time is still for 5 cycles.

Even though the final cycle of Clothing and Blacksmithing only has 2 traits able to be researched at a time , it still takes the same nunber of scrolls to research as a cycle with 3 traits to research at a time. So I think my math is still correct.

Yes? No?

JKorr

Jayman1000 wrote: »

This is most definately pay to win. You pay to instantly complete research. There is no doubt, this IS pay to win. What can be debatable though is the DEGREE of pay to win we are talking about here. As an example: a game that has p2w elements that allow you to get get boosted stats for either pve or pvp is probably the worst p2w offenses there is. Compare that to the issue at hand with the instant completion of research, I would say this is in the category of lesser p2w offenses. But still p2w nonetheless.

I buy ubersupergodmode armor in the crown store. There is NO way to get this armor as a drop, or craft it at any station. I buy the ubersuperonehitkillevenworldbosses weapon in the crown store. There is NO way to get this weapon as a drop, or craft it at any station. This is pay to win.

Someone buys scrolls to shorten the research time to craft armor and weapons that are NOT ubersupergodmode. None of the crafted sets is anything close to ubersupergodmode. They exchanged money for crowns and crowns for time. What on Nirn did they win?

When the game was in early release and still had mandatory subs, and there weren't 9 traits in existence to research yet and no one had a maxed crafter, THEN I might agree with you that bypassing time for research would get you ahead of other players. The sets were a lot different then too, before nerfs. Now, this long after release, shortening research time is basically pointless. For anyone who wants a 9 trait crafted set there are dozens/hundreds of maxed crafters with every motif released in the game learned at this point who would craft for them for mats/fee/free. Being able to craft isn't exclusive.

Even if someone does decide to blow their powerball winnings on buying research scrolls, they are still going to have to either farm mats, or buy what they need from guild traders, AND farm motifs if they want one that isn't sold in the store. Just finishing research fast doesn't instantly give you everything you need to have a maxed out crafter.

badmojo

JKorr wrote: »

They exchanged money for crowns and crowns for time. What on Nirn did they win?

Coming soon the crownstore....

Lazy Scroller Bundle

---

-15 max level characters, 3 of each class, plus 15 name, race and appearance change tokens.
-1 000 000 of every material
-Every BOP set piece in the game, legendary quality
-Every BOE set piece in the game, legendary quality
-All traits on all characters
-All skillpoints
-3600 champion points
-10 000 000 gold
-Every mount obtainable with gold
-PVP rank 50
-All titles
-Every skill line at max level
-Every motif obtainable in-game
-Every recipe and furnishing recipe
-etc(basically everything you can get in the game without spending crowns)

Is that still not pay to win?

starkerealm

VaranisArano wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

To me there is no strict "this is p2w, this is not" definition because it is all very subjective.

No, it's necessary to have a meaningful discussion. We've had threads on here where someone was arguing that the costumes. The ****ing costumes! Are pay to win.

There are users who will drag out the term P2W on any store item they want, but don't want to pay for.

So, no, saying, "this is P2W," is vital. When you're talking about something that gives a player direct advantages over non-paying players, that's P2W. Which is why I've said, "if this was 2014, and we didn't have 9 trait crafters all over the place, there'd be a real argument for this." But, it's 2018, I've been a full nine trait for over two years now, and I'm not alone.

That alone starts carving up the P2W argument. There's no advantage for someone who buys these vs. a player who's already here making 9 trait stuff today. In a P2W situation, there would be.

The argument that costumes were pay to win (I assume it was being able to hide your armor type in PVP in Cyrodiil once disguises were removed from Cyrodiil) went out the window with the Outfit System.

No. It was someone arguing that the 2k crown costumes, like the cinimatic hero costumes, were P2W. The argument for hiding your armor was always kinda undermined by the fact that you could get the same result with disguises, which were in the game at launch.

badmojo wrote: »

If this was 2014 it would be pay2win... therefore there is no strict definition of pay2win...

Difference being, in 2014, sets like Hundings Rage, and TBS were much harder to obtain, and (back then) far more powerful than other available sets. I'd love to hear someone at ZOS confirm when the world's first TBS crafting occurred, but realistically, it probably wasn't until 2015.

Fast forward to 2018, and the hidden level adjustment is gone from crafted gear, while there are enough 9 trait crafters out there that you can, reasonably, commission, the sets you want without being forced to cough up cash.

A strict definition of P2W is that you spend money and obtain a direct statistical advantage over a player who does not. When "natural" 9 trait crafters did not yet exist, this would have been P2W. In the current environment, where 9 trait crafters do exist, the argument that it constitutes P2W is greatly weakened.

VaranisArano

badmojo wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

They exchanged money for crowns and crowns for time. What on Nirn did they win?

Coming soon the crownstore....

Lazy Scroller Bundle

---

-15 max level characters, 3 of each class, plus 15 name, race and appearance change tokens.
-1 000 000 of every material
-Every BOP set piece in the game, legendary quality
-Every BOE set piece in the game, legendary quality
-All traits on all characters
-All skillpoints
-3600 champion points
-10 000 000 gold
-Every mount obtainable with gold
-PVP rank 50
-All titles
-Every skill line at max level
-Every motif obtainable in-game
-Every recipe and furnishing recipe
-etc(basically everything you can get in the game without spending crowns)

Is that still not pay to win?

No, that's the PTS template characters... LOL

Beodamacsa

Really? someone cried about research scrolls being pay to win??

What next really I'm shocked such a trivial thing for some one to pay so much to be able to reseach things a bit faster.
Buying a Maelstrom staff i could understand but research scrolls?

VaranisArano

Ozby wrote: »

Really? someone cried about research scrolls being pay to win??

What next really I'm shocked such a trivial thing for some one to pay so much to be able to reseach things a bit faster.
Buying a Maelstrom staff i could understand but research scrolls?

Yeah, there's another thread here that got me thinking about the math of researching vs using in-game research scrolls vs just paying for Crown research scrolls: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/399088/it-will-always-be-items-worse-than-what-you-can-craft-2/p1

I don't think the pay-to-win argument is convincing, but I wanted to discuss the math involved.

starkerealm

VaranisArano wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

They exchanged money for crowns and crowns for time. What on Nirn did they win?

Coming soon the crownstore....

Lazy Scroller Bundle

---

-15 max level characters, 3 of each class, plus 15 name, race and appearance change tokens.
-1 000 000 of every material
-Every BOP set piece in the game, legendary quality
-Every BOE set piece in the game, legendary quality
-All traits on all characters
-All skillpoints
-3600 champion points
-10 000 000 gold
-Every mount obtainable with gold
-PVP rank 50
-All titles
-Every skill line at max level
-Every motif obtainable in-game
-Every recipe and furnishing recipe
-etc(basically everything you can get in the game without spending crowns)

Is that still not pay to win?

No, that's the PTS template characters... LOL

Yeah, except it's 2k of each crafting item (except for style stones, 200 of each of those, no Molybdenum). The gear defaults to Epic quality, with the exception of Master's, Maelstrom, and Asylum weapons. 720 CP (currently). No mounts, sorry. Not a complete collection of skill points (I think it's just 300 extra SP, or something in that range). 100k gold. PvP rank is 0, I think, though the Alliance War Skill Lines are maxed). And no titles. Also, all cosmetic unlocks associated with achievements (though not the achievements themselves) and no dyes.

Yeah, that's a PTS template. Go, mess around with them, they're great for experimenting with build ideas, without actually having to spend the time grinding up all the pieces on live. That's not sarcasm, btw. The PTS templates can be really interesting for sketching out ideas, before you worry about farming.

VaranisArano

starkerealm wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

They exchanged money for crowns and crowns for time. What on Nirn did they win?

Coming soon the crownstore....

Lazy Scroller Bundle

---

-15 max level characters, 3 of each class, plus 15 name, race and appearance change tokens.
-1 000 000 of every material
-Every BOP set piece in the game, legendary quality
-Every BOE set piece in the game, legendary quality
-All traits on all characters
-All skillpoints
-3600 champion points
-10 000 000 gold
-Every mount obtainable with gold
-PVP rank 50
-All titles
-Every skill line at max level
-Every motif obtainable in-game
-Every recipe and furnishing recipe
-etc(basically everything you can get in the game without spending crowns)

Is that still not pay to win?

No, that's the PTS template characters... LOL

Yeah, except it's 2k of each crafting item (except for style stones, 200 of each of those, no Molybdenum). The gear defaults to Epic quality, with the exception of Master's, Maelstrom, and Asylum weapons. 720 CP (currently). No mounts, sorry. Not a complete collection of skill points (I think it's just 300 extra SP, or something in that range). 100k gold. PvP rank is 0, I think, though the Alliance War Skill Lines are maxed). And no titles. Also, all cosmetic unlocks associated with achievements (though not the achievements themselves) and no dyes.

Yeah, that's a PTS template. Go, mess around with them, they're great for experimenting with build ideas, without actually having to spend the time grinding up all the pieces on live. That's not sarcasm, btw. The PTS templates can be really interesting for sketching out ideas, before you worry about farming.

Yeah, its not exact, it just really reminded me of the PTS. I just got on there this last DLC and it was a lot of fun. Now, if only ZOS listened more to the bug reports...

But as you say, if ZOS is looking for a "Pay-To-Win Pack" for characters, giving them the PTS template characters would be an easy way to do it.

BuddyAces

badmojo wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

Time is a factor in an MMORPG. When you can cut your time investment down, that is pay2win.

So? Who cares if that person hits cp cap first. As other folks in the thread have pointed out, NOTHING to make your character better is locked behind a paywall. What you are doing is making up arguments to support some wild theory that you seem to have.

You are talking about TIME in an MMO. You do not "win" by getting to CP cap before someone else, or hitting a million gold first, or whatever made up argument you concoct next. What you are talking about is jealousy and that's a personal problem, not a p2w problem. I don't recall anyone getting anything for getting everything I got before me, there were no prizes given for that kind of thing.

You can voice your displeasure on these things all you want for whatever reason but you can not call them pay to win.

edit:
I think these things are completely stupid btw, wouldn't buy one myself.

Who cares? I do, obviously. I am not making up arguments to support a theory. I am simply explaining the things I dislike with the microtransactions in ESO. You can be stubborn about the term pay2win, but that doesnt change the things I dislike about the microtransactions in ESO.

The reason I dislike the resistence to calling this pay2win, is by your definition pay2win in ESO would only be something like a skill line that can only be obtained by crowns. Going by that strict p2w definition, ZOS could add all manner of things to the crown store which are obtainable ingame. They could even add that special skill line for crowns, as long as it could be obtained ingame somehow. But, how easily can it be obtained? What if that skill line was purchasable for 5k crowns, or it had a chance to drop from any npc? What if the chamce to drop was extremely low? It can be obtained ingame, so its not pay2win?

To me there is no strict "this is p2w, this is not" definition because it is all very subjective. The devil is in the details. The players are the only ones in the position to decide if buying something is good for the game or if buying something undermines the gameplay.

It is not subjective. Pay to win means that it has NO other means to be obtainable except through purchase from the crown store. It's as simple as that. If you don't like micro transactions then that's fine. Go whine about em in a different thread. You are wrong. This is not p2w.

Linaleah

badmojo wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

See, my first thought when you list out all that is.... but which of them is enjoying themselves more. The guy "buying" his way through the game is skipping the game. The one who can take his time is actually playing it. (well, maybe - they might have bought into the whole 'game begins at CP cap!" foolishness, and is ignoring the game in favor of idiotic grinding).

Enjoyment is the only 'win' here. If the guy going slowly is enjoying himself, and the guy feverishly buying his way to endgame is stressing out about it, I know who I think the 'winner' is.

(and yes, "time is a factor in MMOs". That's why it's called 'pay to convenience')



...perhaps it's just that I'm not a hyper-competitive "game begins at endgame!" type. Playing the game & enjoying yourself is the point. Most of these 'pay to convenience' things are about skipping that playing of the game, so they make little sense to me and only seem like people are paying real $ to harm their game experience. Which doesn't feel like "winning" to me.

(Especially since, as others have pointed out, there's a lot of other things you need to do to actually be able to get those 9 traits, and to actually perform well at 'endgame'. Can't buy your way to skill points, and between copying that perfect build and all the points you need to actually craft that endgame gear, you're gonna need a lot of them.)

Did the trait research process add a lot of enjoyment to your eso experience? Because it just seemed like wasted time for me. That time spent searching out and buying reasonably priced items items to research was time I could have spent doing more enjoyable activities and time I could have been improving my skills. The millionaire would still have to find items to research, but gold would be less of a time investment than it is for the poor man, so items would be found quicker and the cost would have less of an impact. If you dont have to pay for consumables, mount training, xp drinks, etc you would end up with more money to burn, and less of a need to spend time accquiring gold.

Point is there are plenty of activities in ESO that do not directly increase the fun factor for most players, but are a means to an enjoyable end. Spending crowns cuts down the amount of time you need to spend doing the work in order to get to the more enjoyable parts.

I am not complaining that I have to do things that arent my favorite things to do, because that is part of the grind that is this game. But it feels like pay2win when a millionaire can skip a lot of that and go to the enjoyment quicker. The price it costs to skip those things is too high for me to justify, but I am not a millionaire.

When I look at if something is pay2win I only look at the extremes. Will all the money in the world help someone get ahead of me? Then its p2w.

does no one ask their guildies outside of the guilds I'm in to help with research items anymore? are the guilds I'm an aberration or something? not really they are not, that was a rhetorical question. do you know how much time I spent looking for research items that didn't drop for me while I was actualy playing (because those ARE an option, you know) all of 5 minutes of asking in guild chat. and before you say anything about new players and guilds - we were ALL new players at one point. there are a LOT of advertisements in game every time I log in, especially in early areas - VVardenfel, starting zones for respective alliances, but also in DLC zones. newbie friendly guilds, etc. finding a guild, ANY guild is not hard. finding research items even without a guild - is not hard either. everything but nirn you can pretty much get just by playing the game - and I mean playing, not shopping.

enjoyment doesn't start at Max CP either. clearing VMA doesn't require THE best in slot gear, it requires lots and lots of PRACTICE. and no money in a world will skip THAT. gathering necessary skill points, grinding abilities and their morphs, all of those things? are NOT skippable. moreover. tell me. exactly HOW other then going to gold sellers WHICH IS AGAINST TOS. will someone who is a millionaire in real life will make gold faster then someone who is not?

edited, you know... of all the things sold in cash shop - the ones coming closest to pay to win are actualy mount training consumables. because in horse riding simulator, I mean Cyrodil, they actualy make a difference.

but research scrolls? meh. to be clear, I'm not a fan. I still think that research takes too long and their price is a very blatant cash grab. but pay to win? no not really.

PlagueSD

Ok, time to apply some "Game Theory" here...Yes, I'm serious. The problem with this is people are playing to "win" in a game where there is no "win condition". This is where a lot of confusion resides. People are using the wrong "Game" strategy when playing. You have to know what games are "play to win" (finite game) and what games are "play to keep playing" (infinite game). ESO (and all MMORPGs) are considered infinite games.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bFs6ZiynSU

helediron

We reached all nine traits at account level already before end of 2014. With five crafters each needed to learn only three items in one profession in one sweep. Of course crafting a set always needed a relog but it was doable.

Any "win" in trait research happened over three years ago.

Three years ago we got our main crafters to all nine traits. There were forum threads of friendly competition of getting ready and lotsa nerdy celebration.

Two years ago dedicated players to whom crafting was not important started to reach all nine traits. There were w00ts in guild chat.

Last year even casuals got nine traits.

Today, who cares?

badmojo

How do you win in ESO? If that is the line in the sand where microtransactions become pay to win, then what do you people consider winning in ESO?

I mentioned stuff like this being p2w because it gets a player to "end game" faster, because that to me is the only thing a player can win in this game. Leaderboards exist, but its not really the common players end goal to get first in vma or become emp in Cyrodiil.

exeeter702

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@Raideen

Your right, but your wasting your time here. I commend you trying to enlighten folks.

Being able to bypass game progression to get access to 9 traited gear via real cash is of course P2W, a "soft form" of it mind you, but still is nontheless. Folks will come up with all sorts of crazy off the wall excuses and rationalizations why its not.

People will make excuses for things they have an emotional attachment too, its just how it is.

You seem to assume the people here who are trying to educate those on what p2w is, automatically take no issue with the practice of cash shop advantages. It had nothing to do with that. P2w is not open to opinion, it has a definitive meaning, saying nonsesne like its a soft form of p2w is silly.

Bypassing a time gate or circumventing a grind time, while pretty *** a practice that i would personally rather not tolerate or endorse in an online game that is not f2p, is objetively not p2w.

The issue here is people lumping there disappointment with greedy cash shop practices with the term p2w when they dont know what that even means.

BuddyAces

exeeter702 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@Raideen

Your right, but your wasting your time here. I commend you trying to enlighten folks.

Being able to bypass game progression to get access to 9 traited gear via real cash is of course P2W, a "soft form" of it mind you, but still is nontheless. Folks will come up with all sorts of crazy off the wall excuses and rationalizations why its not.

People will make excuses for things they have an emotional attachment too, its just how it is.

The issue here is people lumping there disappointment with greedy cash shop practices with the term p2w when they dont know what that even means.

Quoting this now, will quote again later and later and later until the only ones left arguing are just trolls who have nothing better to do.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Isnt pay to win only when you buy stuff you cant get in game?

exeeter702

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Isnt pay to win only when you buy stuff you cant get in game?

Yes