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Pay to Win? The Math on Research Scrolls
VaranisArano
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So someone in another thread was complaining about Pay to Win Research Scrolls in the Crown Store, and I found myself thinking about the math of researching traits.
We all know there's nine traits you have to research for every item in the game and that research takes a really long time. So how much benefit do Research Scrolls actually give? How much time are you really saving with those Crowns? I didn't know. I wanted to find out.
How I set up the Math
I used the research times from here: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Traits and here: http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Research and my own math. I can't promise my math is perfect, so if I'm off by a little, have mercy.
Here's the hypothetical situation. You've got an addon that will automatically start research the new item the second the last item stops researching so you get optimum research time and we'll assume that you stay logged in at all the right times and such. Ideal world, here.
First things first, you level your Blacksmithing, Clothing, and Woodworking until you can get three important passives: Metallurgy, Stitching, and Carpentry. These amazing research passives reduce research time by 25%, limit research to 30 days, and let you research 3 items at once for each crafting discipline when they are maxed out for 4 skill points.
Ideally, you also have ESO+ for a further 10% research time reduction, but I don't have ESO+ because I'm cheap.
We'll research in a cycle. That means we research three items, all nine traits, then go onto the next 3 items, research all traits and so on.
Wood working has 6 items, so it takes 2 Cycles. Blacksmithing and Clothing both have 14 items, so that will take 5 Cycles. That means the total researching length of time is the length of 5 Cycles because we can research blacksmithing, clothing, and woodworking all at the same time. Researching all the items will take 12 total cycles when it comes to figuring out cost of scrolls because those are unique to blacksmithing, clothing, and woodworking.
Completing a Cycle
Well, according to http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Research the base time for a research cycle with no passives is 3066 hours/128 days. Therefore, to research all the traits in 5 cycles will take 15,330 hrs or 638.75 days or 1 year, 273 days.
With the Metallurgy, Stitching, and Carpentry passives maxed at 4 skill points, that base time for a research cycle is 1,867.5 hours/78 days. Therefore, the research all the traits in 5 cycles will take 9,337.5 hours or 390 days or 1 year and 25 days. Definitely grab those passives!
With passives maxed and ESO+, the base time for a research cycle drops to 70 days, 45 minutes, according to http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Traits. Again I don't have ESO+, so I didn't do a lot of math with it. This puts the lowest time for maxed research at about 350 days or slightly less than 1 year.
In-game 1 day Research scrolls
This scrolls available in game wipe 24 hours off the timer of any currently researching item or finishes it if ther timer is less than 24 hours. They have a 20 hour cooldown before they can be used again. Again, we'll assume that we have an addon that uses a scroll at the most optimal time (I tried not to waste too many hours of the scrolls) and automatically starts the next item researching. Also, I don't have ESO+, so I did my math using the research times with maxed passives (25% time reduction and capped at 30 days) but not the additional 10% of ESO+.
Working in cycles - the specific hours spent on each trait might vary if you decide to wait out research of less than 24 hours or if you want to use a scroll again as soon as possible. I chose to wait it out if the wasted time on the scroll would be 12 or more hours)
1st trait - 4.5 hours (better just to wait it out)
2nd traits - 9 hours (better just to wait it out)
3 trait - 18 hours (better just to wait it out)
4 trait - 1 scroll, 12 hours
5 trait - 2 scrolls (wasting 2 hours), 26 hrs
6 trait - 3 scrolls, 72 hours
7 trait - 7 scrolls, 120 hours
8 trait - 13 scrolls, 264 hrs
9 trait - 16 scrolls, 336 hrs
1 Cycle research time using my method under ideal researching but no ESO+ is 861.5 hours or 36 days.
Total research time (5 Cycles) is 4,307.5 hours or 179.5 or a little less than half a year.
1 Cycle requires 42 research scrolls.
Total research requires 84 Woodworking Scrolls, 210 Blacksmithing Scrolls, and 210 Clothing Scrolls, assuming they can be used as soon as they come off cooldown AND when most efficient. You might need a few less scrolls if its not efficient, or a few more if you choose to waste time on the scrolls by finishing certain items.
ESO+ would obviously shorten this time further and thus lower the number of scrolls needed.
Crown Store Research Scrolls
The Crown Store Research Scrolls come in 1, 7 and 15 day versions. They do not have a cooldown.
1 day scrolls - 400 Crowns
7 day scrolls - 2500 Crowns
15 day scrolls - 5000 crowns
Again you have the option to waste time on scrolls. Since this one involved much less math to find an optimal use of scrolls, I went ahead and did both options.
1 trait - wait 4.5 hours or 1 1-day scroll
2 trait - wait 9 hours or 1 1-day scroll
3 trait - wait 18 hours or 1 1-day scroll
4 trait - wait 12 hours and 1 1-day scroll or 2 1-day scrolls
5 trait - 3 1-day scrolls
6 trait - 6 1-day scrolls
7 trait - 1 7-day scroll and 5 1-day scrolls (ESO+ gets 1 7-day scroll and 4 1-day scrolls)
8 trait - 1 15-day scroll, 1 7-day scroll and 2 1-day scrolls (ESO+ gets 1 15-day scroll and 1 7-day scroll)
9 trait - 2 15-day scrolls (ESO+ gets 1 15-day scroll, 1 7 day scroll and 5 1-day scrolls)
So the cost in scrolls for 1 Cycle is either:
Patient People Price: wait 43.5 hours and 17 1-day scrolls, 2 7-day scrolls, and 3 15-day scrolls.
Impatient People Price: 21 1-day scrolls, 2 7-day scrolls, and 3 15-day scrolls
ESO+: wait 36 hrs 45 min and 19 1-day scrolls, 3 7-day scrolls, 2 15 day scrolls OR 23 1-day scrolls, 3 7-day scrolls, 2 15-day scrolls.
Total Cost for all researching is thus: (5 times waiting, 12 total cycles for all crafts)
Patient People: Wait 217.5 hours (9 days) and 204 1-day scrolls, 24 7-day scrolls, and 36 15-day scrolls = 321,600 Crowns
Impatient People: 252 1-day scrolls, 24 7-day scrolls, and 36 15-day scrolls = 340,800 crowns
Patient ESO +: wait 182.5 hours (7.6 days), 228 1-day scrolls, 36 7-day scrolls, 24 15-day scrolls = 301,200 Crowns (possibly a little lower depending on how patient they are on some of the later traits)
Impatient ESO+: 276 1-day scrolls, 36 7-day scrolls, 24 15-day scrolls = 320,400 Crowns
Conclusions/TLDR:
1. Metallurgy, Stitching, and Carpentry are super important if you want to research items, saving you about 250 days.
2. Super patient people who never use anything to speed up their research but are also extremely on the ball about keeping up on the research with take a minimum of 390 days (350 days with ESO+) to become a full 9-trait crafter. So, I predict that most players will take around a year and a half/two years to become a 9-trait crafter if they are diligent about researching or don't max out the passives right away which many new players don't.
3. The In-game 1-day Research Scrolls cuts down the time required by a little over half if you are using them as soon as they come off cooldown (assuming its optimal to do so). It will take approximately 84 Woodworking Scrolls, 210 Blacksmithing Scrolls, and 210 Clothing Scrolls if you do so (+ or - a few for differing methodology), so weigh that against the current cost of scrolls on your platform.
4. To completely wipe out your crafting in as little time as it takes to click on all those scrolls you bought from the Crown Store takes 300,000+ Crowns. That is the price of instantly becoming a 9-trait Crafter.
5. Using a combination of patience, in-game 1-day research scrolls, and Crown Store scrolls is probably the most cost effective way to become a 9-trait crafter in less than a year, but that would be a lot of math I don't want to do right now. If someone else wants to, that'd be awesome!
Final Thoughts:
Every hour a super patient person without ESO+ researches is worth about 34 crowns.
If you are going to go hog-wild and buy ALL the scrolls, patience saves about 20K Crowns. Save yourself the crowns.
it costs 300,000+ Crowns to become a Master Crafter with only Crown Store Research Scrolls. That's about $2000 if the crown packs aren't on sale (PC/NA prices).
As usual, if I've screwed up my math or misunderstood something, please feel free to point it out politely. As I've noted, some of the numbers of scrolls or exact cost might differ slightly if you choose to research items a little differently than I did when doing the math.
Update 3/15/18
With the New Scalecaller crates, ZOS has introduced a Research Scroll for all crafting research as a Legendary Reward, won through Crown Crates or purchased for 100 Crown Gems.
This item is worth 7500 crowns. (Cost of 3 7-day research scrolls)
My luck is that I get about 12 crown gems for every 3 crates I get (I only get the free crates, so this is a small data pool), so assuming my luck holds, I would need to buy 25 crates to get enough gems to buy the Reward Scroll. However, its cheaper to just buy 2 15-crate packs for 5000 each, so the cost of one of those scrolls is 10000 Crowns + an unknown chance to get a scroll in one of the crates.
I'd do more math on the viability of using this Crown Crate All Research Scroll, but unfortunately ZOS doesn't release the odds of getting these items. Without those odds, I can't tell whether its better to buy crown crates in hopes of getting the All Research Scroll. Its definitely cheaper to buy 3 regular 7-day scrolls than to gamble and not get the All Research scroll and buy one with gems. With my luck of 4 gems per crate, the cost of these scrolls is 10,000 Crowns, having taken 25 (cheaper to buy 30) crates in order to get 100 crown gems to buy the scroll.
TLDR: ZOS, releasing the odds on Crown Crate gambling would make math people like me happy.
Edited by VaranisArano on March 15, 2018 5:59PM We all know there's nine traits you have to research for every item in the game and that research takes a really long time. So how much benefit do Research Scrolls actually give? How much time are you really saving with those Crowns? I didn't know. I wanted to find out.
How I set up the Math
I used the research times from here: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Traits and here: http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Research and my own math. I can't promise my math is perfect, so if I'm off by a little, have mercy.
Here's the hypothetical situation. You've got an addon that will automatically start research the new item the second the last item stops researching so you get optimum research time and we'll assume that you stay logged in at all the right times and such. Ideal world, here.
First things first, you level your Blacksmithing, Clothing, and Woodworking until you can get three important passives: Metallurgy, Stitching, and Carpentry. These amazing research passives reduce research time by 25%, limit research to 30 days, and let you research 3 items at once for each crafting discipline when they are maxed out for 4 skill points.
Ideally, you also have ESO+ for a further 10% research time reduction, but I don't have ESO+ because I'm cheap.
We'll research in a cycle. That means we research three items, all nine traits, then go onto the next 3 items, research all traits and so on.
Wood working has 6 items, so it takes 2 Cycles. Blacksmithing and Clothing both have 14 items, so that will take 5 Cycles. That means the total researching length of time is the length of 5 Cycles because we can research blacksmithing, clothing, and woodworking all at the same time. Researching all the items will take 12 total cycles when it comes to figuring out cost of scrolls because those are unique to blacksmithing, clothing, and woodworking.
Completing a Cycle
Well, according to http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Research the base time for a research cycle with no passives is 3066 hours/128 days. Therefore, to research all the traits in 5 cycles will take 15,330 hrs or 638.75 days or 1 year, 273 days.
With the Metallurgy, Stitching, and Carpentry passives maxed at 4 skill points, that base time for a research cycle is 1,867.5 hours/78 days. Therefore, the research all the traits in 5 cycles will take 9,337.5 hours or 390 days or 1 year and 25 days. Definitely grab those passives!
With passives maxed and ESO+, the base time for a research cycle drops to 70 days, 45 minutes, according to http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Traits. Again I don't have ESO+, so I didn't do a lot of math with it. This puts the lowest time for maxed research at about 350 days or slightly less than 1 year.
In-game 1 day Research scrolls
This scrolls available in game wipe 24 hours off the timer of any currently researching item or finishes it if ther timer is less than 24 hours. They have a 20 hour cooldown before they can be used again. Again, we'll assume that we have an addon that uses a scroll at the most optimal time (I tried not to waste too many hours of the scrolls) and automatically starts the next item researching. Also, I don't have ESO+, so I did my math using the research times with maxed passives (25% time reduction and capped at 30 days) but not the additional 10% of ESO+.
Working in cycles - the specific hours spent on each trait might vary if you decide to wait out research of less than 24 hours or if you want to use a scroll again as soon as possible. I chose to wait it out if the wasted time on the scroll would be 12 or more hours)
1st trait - 4.5 hours (better just to wait it out)
2nd traits - 9 hours (better just to wait it out)
3 trait - 18 hours (better just to wait it out)
4 trait - 1 scroll, 12 hours
5 trait - 2 scrolls (wasting 2 hours), 26 hrs
6 trait - 3 scrolls, 72 hours
7 trait - 7 scrolls, 120 hours
8 trait - 13 scrolls, 264 hrs
9 trait - 16 scrolls, 336 hrs
1 Cycle research time using my method under ideal researching but no ESO+ is 861.5 hours or 36 days.
Total research time (5 Cycles) is 4,307.5 hours or 179.5 or a little less than half a year.
1 Cycle requires 42 research scrolls.
Total research requires 84 Woodworking Scrolls, 210 Blacksmithing Scrolls, and 210 Clothing Scrolls, assuming they can be used as soon as they come off cooldown AND when most efficient. You might need a few less scrolls if its not efficient, or a few more if you choose to waste time on the scrolls by finishing certain items.
ESO+ would obviously shorten this time further and thus lower the number of scrolls needed.
Crown Store Research Scrolls
The Crown Store Research Scrolls come in 1, 7 and 15 day versions. They do not have a cooldown.
1 day scrolls - 400 Crowns
7 day scrolls - 2500 Crowns
15 day scrolls - 5000 crowns
Again you have the option to waste time on scrolls. Since this one involved much less math to find an optimal use of scrolls, I went ahead and did both options.
1 trait - wait 4.5 hours or 1 1-day scroll
2 trait - wait 9 hours or 1 1-day scroll
3 trait - wait 18 hours or 1 1-day scroll
4 trait - wait 12 hours and 1 1-day scroll or 2 1-day scrolls
5 trait - 3 1-day scrolls
6 trait - 6 1-day scrolls
7 trait - 1 7-day scroll and 5 1-day scrolls (ESO+ gets 1 7-day scroll and 4 1-day scrolls)
8 trait - 1 15-day scroll, 1 7-day scroll and 2 1-day scrolls (ESO+ gets 1 15-day scroll and 1 7-day scroll)
9 trait - 2 15-day scrolls (ESO+ gets 1 15-day scroll, 1 7 day scroll and 5 1-day scrolls)
So the cost in scrolls for 1 Cycle is either:
Patient People Price: wait 43.5 hours and 17 1-day scrolls, 2 7-day scrolls, and 3 15-day scrolls.
Impatient People Price: 21 1-day scrolls, 2 7-day scrolls, and 3 15-day scrolls
ESO+: wait 36 hrs 45 min and 19 1-day scrolls, 3 7-day scrolls, 2 15 day scrolls OR 23 1-day scrolls, 3 7-day scrolls, 2 15-day scrolls.
Total Cost for all researching is thus: (5 times waiting, 12 total cycles for all crafts)
Patient People: Wait 217.5 hours (9 days) and 204 1-day scrolls, 24 7-day scrolls, and 36 15-day scrolls = 321,600 Crowns
Impatient People: 252 1-day scrolls, 24 7-day scrolls, and 36 15-day scrolls = 340,800 crowns
Patient ESO +: wait 182.5 hours (7.6 days), 228 1-day scrolls, 36 7-day scrolls, 24 15-day scrolls = 301,200 Crowns (possibly a little lower depending on how patient they are on some of the later traits)
Impatient ESO+: 276 1-day scrolls, 36 7-day scrolls, 24 15-day scrolls = 320,400 Crowns
Conclusions/TLDR:
1. Metallurgy, Stitching, and Carpentry are super important if you want to research items, saving you about 250 days.
2. Super patient people who never use anything to speed up their research but are also extremely on the ball about keeping up on the research with take a minimum of 390 days (350 days with ESO+) to become a full 9-trait crafter. So, I predict that most players will take around a year and a half/two years to become a 9-trait crafter if they are diligent about researching or don't max out the passives right away which many new players don't.
3. The In-game 1-day Research Scrolls cuts down the time required by a little over half if you are using them as soon as they come off cooldown (assuming its optimal to do so). It will take approximately 84 Woodworking Scrolls, 210 Blacksmithing Scrolls, and 210 Clothing Scrolls if you do so (+ or - a few for differing methodology), so weigh that against the current cost of scrolls on your platform.
4. To completely wipe out your crafting in as little time as it takes to click on all those scrolls you bought from the Crown Store takes 300,000+ Crowns. That is the price of instantly becoming a 9-trait Crafter.
5. Using a combination of patience, in-game 1-day research scrolls, and Crown Store scrolls is probably the most cost effective way to become a 9-trait crafter in less than a year, but that would be a lot of math I don't want to do right now. If someone else wants to, that'd be awesome!
Final Thoughts:
Every hour a super patient person without ESO+ researches is worth about 34 crowns.
If you are going to go hog-wild and buy ALL the scrolls, patience saves about 20K Crowns. Save yourself the crowns.
it costs 300,000+ Crowns to become a Master Crafter with only Crown Store Research Scrolls. That's about $2000 if the crown packs aren't on sale (PC/NA prices).
As usual, if I've screwed up my math or misunderstood something, please feel free to point it out politely. As I've noted, some of the numbers of scrolls or exact cost might differ slightly if you choose to research items a little differently than I did when doing the math.
Update 3/15/18
With the New Scalecaller crates, ZOS has introduced a Research Scroll for all crafting research as a Legendary Reward, won through Crown Crates or purchased for 100 Crown Gems.
This item is worth 7500 crowns. (Cost of 3 7-day research scrolls)
My luck is that I get about 12 crown gems for every 3 crates I get (I only get the free crates, so this is a small data pool), so assuming my luck holds, I would need to buy 25 crates to get enough gems to buy the Reward Scroll. However, its cheaper to just buy 2 15-crate packs for 5000 each, so the cost of one of those scrolls is 10000 Crowns + an unknown chance to get a scroll in one of the crates.
I'd do more math on the viability of using this Crown Crate All Research Scroll, but unfortunately ZOS doesn't release the odds of getting these items. Without those odds, I can't tell whether its better to buy crown crates in hopes of getting the All Research Scroll. Its definitely cheaper to buy 3 regular 7-day scrolls than to gamble and not get the All Research scroll and buy one with gems. With my luck of 4 gems per crate, the cost of these scrolls is 10,000 Crowns, having taken 25 (cheaper to buy 30) crates in order to get 100 crown gems to buy the scroll.
TLDR: ZOS, releasing the odds on Crown Crate gambling would make math people like me happy.
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Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I love when people write thread titles like headlines
+1 for all the math tho.
Edit: I thought the final cost of only using scrolls was gonna be more than $2000 so that's interesting.Edited by Apache_Kid on March 8, 2018 6:32PM0 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nice write up, but I don't think of it as pay to win anyway. As a side note, I did all the research a long time ago long before the scrolls hit.
The reason why I don't think of it as pay to win is because minimal actual playing time is involved in research. In fact all of the actually playing time is just getting an item with the right trait to research, the rest just happens passively while you are doing anything else.
To me, experience scrolls are far more "pay to win" as they actually reduce the time you have to play to reach goals that require playing.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American4 -
FLuFFyxMuFFiN✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't see how people can argue that something that is 100% convenience is P2W. They don't make you more powerful. People just love to complain I guess.10 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm still not sure if thats pay to win. Its not much different from the old system... Stuff like trait research and horse training actually had a purpose back in the days: the game used to be subscription-based and they had to add incentives for logging in regularly. So now that ESO+ is not mandatory, they found a new way to monetize these things.
They are greedy, of course. But crafted gear can be traded and if you need to transmute something asap, you can use another character to do that (first trait only takes 5 hours or so).
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »I love when people write thread titles like headlines
+1 for all the math tho.
Edit: I thought the final cost of only using scrolls was gonna be more than $2000 so that's interesting.
I originally wrote it like a research paper title, "The Math of Research Scrolls: A Comparison of the Costs of becoming a 9-trait Crafter with Patience, In-Game Scrolls, and Crown Scrolls," and then decided that sounded like something no one wants to read.
I was surprised that the final cost of instantly getting to 9-trait crafter was so high.3 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »I love when people write thread titles like headlines
+1 for all the math tho.
Edit: I thought the final cost of only using scrolls was gonna be more than $2000 so that's interesting.
I originally wrote it like a research paper title, "The Math of Research Scrolls: A Comparison of the Costs of becoming a 9-trait Crafter with Patience, In-Game Scrolls, and Crown Scrolls," and then decided that sounded like something no one wants to read.
I was surprised that the final cost of instantly getting to 9-trait crafter was so high.
Yeah just by looking at the cost of the scrolls and thinking about how much time it took me I just guessed it would've been higher. But math is NOT my strong suit.0 -
Juju_beans✭✭✭✭✭
✭Fast tracking to 9 trait is not pay to win; it's pay to skip..a convenience.Edited by Juju_beans on March 8, 2018 6:39PM6 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This game is absolutely pay to win, you just have to go through hoops but it's still pay to win.
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DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If research scrolls are P2W, I don't care about pay to win. I don't like p2w when games require people to keep feeding quarters to be competitive (or to even finish content as difficulty increases).0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oh for heaven's sake. Pay to win means there is content that you can buy within the game with real money, which will make you stronger than anything that you can acquire without paying for.
None, absolutely none of the items in the crown store will make you stronger than the ingame items. It will only allow you to reach the same state faster.
Once and for all: there is no pay to win. None. DLC, or a chapter, is not pay to win. It's what was called an extension before, or even "the next in series".
This endless and useless and baseless discussion is very very boring by now.9 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Still trying to teach doomsayers its not pay 2 win if you dont win anything by doing it. Having a 9 trait crafter gives you absolutely no advantage in pve or pvp content. Everything you can craft can be bought on guild traders. The only reason to have a good amount of traits researched, IMO, is for master writs. Even then 7 traits will be sufficient for most writ crafting.1 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
And in addition it's not impossible to achieve 9 traits without research scrolls. I did it on two characters before there even were research scrolls.Anotherone773 wrote: »Still trying to teach doomsayers its not pay 2 win if you dont win anything by doing it. Having a 9 trait crafter gives you absolutely no advantage in pve or pvp content. Everything you can craft can be bought on guild traders. The only reason to have a good amount of traits researched, IMO, is for master writs. Even then 7 traits will be sufficient for most writ crafting.2 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ya....not exactly.
"Winning" in and MMORPG has multiple meanings. As its been LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG established in the MMORPG gaming industry, collecting is a HUGE MASSIVE part of an MMORPG. Those who have the cool mounts, armor, etc are "winning".
Secondly. Making gold in ESO is extremely difficult on the large scale for the average person. Making large amounts of gold requires all bank slots to be unlocked, all traits to be researched (which can take the better part of a year to complete), requires a subscription for the bag and requires being in a number of well established trade guilds and you generally only get into the established trade guilds if you are selling a lot, or donating a lot of gold.
Grinding alone does not make gold, and every time someone finds a way of making gold faster, ZOS nurfs it. When boss drops are a paltry 1-3 gold, and mob drops are no better and when many white items sell for ZERO, its basically ZOS making it hard to make gold in game.
Why?
To lead and force players to the crown store.
The faster you unlock traits (crowns), the faster your bank unlocks (crowns), the faster your riding, stamina and mount bag space unlock (crowns), the faster you unlock character inventory (crowns) and the mandatory subscription if one chooses to craft (to make gold), all allow you to make gold faster. This is the very definition of PAY TO WIN. You can get some of the best armor in game, in some cases BIS by spending gold. The best and fastest way to make gold is to have all the necessary unlocks open to facilitate making that gold. That is done through crowns.
Sorry you are unable to connect the dots, but this game is very very much "pay to win", they just do it in a way that obfuscates the obvious to most people, such as yourself.10 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This game is absolutely pay to win, you just have to go through hoops but it's still pay to win.
You do have to buy the game, so in very basic terms, it is pay to win. If someone doesn't pay, you can't play the game at all.
I'm still waiting for one of the "time warp scrolls are pay to win" people to tell me what it is that I could "win". Yes, you get a 9 trait crafter. Yes, you can make any crafted set of gear in the game. AND SO WHAT DO YOU WIN?
You don't get on the leaderboards. You don't get teh bestest weapons automatically appearing in your inventory. You don't get teh bestest dropped armor automatically in your inventory. You get nothing that is uber/super/bestest/oneshot/godmode anything if you have a 9 trait crafter.
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Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »
The questions have been answered, you just choose to ignore them.4 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »
The questions have been answered, you just choose to ignore them.
Do I? Well, perhaps you could restate them so that I can clear up this ignorance of mine.
Please do.
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake2 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This game is absolutely pay to win, you just have to go through hoops but it's still pay to win.
You do have to buy the game, so in very basic terms, it is pay to win. If someone doesn't pay, you can't play the game at all.
I'm still waiting for one of the "time warp scrolls are pay to win" people to tell me what it is that I could "win". Yes, you get a 9 trait crafter. Yes, you can make any crafted set of gear in the game. AND SO WHAT DO YOU WIN?
You don't get on the leaderboards. You don't get teh bestest weapons automatically appearing in your inventory. You don't get teh bestest dropped armor automatically in your inventory. You get nothing that is uber/super/bestest/oneshot/godmode anything if you have a 9 trait crafter.
What is this leaderboard thing I always see pop up when a guildie completes something? How do you get the "Emperor" title in PVP?
Pay to win means to skirt the typical slow mechanics a game offers to fast track to the best gear in game. Crowns allow for this. Ergo, crowns are pay to win.0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter
).
There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.1 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This game is absolutely pay to win, you just have to go through hoops but it's still pay to win.
You do have to buy the game, so in very basic terms, it is pay to win. If someone doesn't pay, you can't play the game at all.
I'm still waiting for one of the "time warp scrolls are pay to win" people to tell me what it is that I could "win". Yes, you get a 9 trait crafter. Yes, you can make any crafted set of gear in the game. AND SO WHAT DO YOU WIN?
You don't get on the leaderboards. You don't get teh bestest weapons automatically appearing in your inventory. You don't get teh bestest dropped armor automatically in your inventory. You get nothing that is uber/super/bestest/oneshot/godmode anything if you have a 9 trait crafter.
What is this leaderboard thing I always see pop up when a guildie completes something? How do you get the "Emperor" title in PVP?
Pay to win means to skirt the typical slow mechanics a game offers to fast track to the best gear in game. Crowns allow for this. Ergo, crowns are pay to win.
That's not "winning" an MMO. That's winning portions of it, it could be argued. For many that leaderboard business is moot as is the Emperorship because neither of those constitute "winning an MMO". Both are difficult to be sure but achieving either of them doesn't mean you "win" ESO.
Ah, so would carrying folk through dungeons be "P2W"? How about the passives on crafting? Those P2W as well?
Still moot because "win" usually means "beaten everything on offer" and that's not what MMOs are about.
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake0 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »
The questions have been answered, you just choose to ignore them.
no they haven't.
i am a 9 trait crafter... i won nothing, there is no title.
am i concerned about the scrolls?
no. i just wish they had been around earlier.1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter ).
There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.
Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.
2 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »
The questions have been answered, you just choose to ignore them.
no they haven't.
i am a 9 trait crafter... i won nothing, there is no title.
am i concerned about the scrolls?
no. i just wish they had been around earlier.
There's another point. Is it "P2W" if you have a crafter (who didn't use scrolls to head that one off) make great armor or weapons or, hell, even food/drink?
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake0 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter ).
There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.
Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.
wrong ..... for several reasons that have been stated clearly on the other thread on this topic.
why is there another thread?1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter ).
There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.
Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.
wrong ..... for several reasons that have been stated clearly on the other thread on this topic.
why is there another thread?
Wrong....your arguments have already been destroyed on numerous occasions, such as my points above that can EASILY be observed by anyone who has played this game for a minimum of 3 months.
3 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »This game is absolutely pay to win, you just have to go through hoops but it's still pay to win.
You do have to buy the game, so in very basic terms, it is pay to win. If someone doesn't pay, you can't play the game at all.
I'm still waiting for one of the "time warp scrolls are pay to win" people to tell me what it is that I could "win". Yes, you get a 9 trait crafter. Yes, you can make any crafted set of gear in the game. AND SO WHAT DO YOU WIN?
You don't get on the leaderboards. You don't get teh bestest weapons automatically appearing in your inventory. You don't get teh bestest dropped armor automatically in your inventory. You get nothing that is uber/super/bestest/oneshot/godmode anything if you have a 9 trait crafter.
What is this leaderboard thing I always see pop up when a guildie completes something? How do you get the "Emperor" title in PVP?
Pay to win means to skirt the typical slow mechanics a game offers to fast track to the best gear in game. Crowns allow for this. Ergo, crowns are pay to win.
That's not "winning" an MMO. That's winning portions of it, it could be argued. For many that leaderboard business is moot as is the Emperorship because neither of those constitute "winning an MMO". Both are difficult to be sure but achieving either of them doesn't mean you "win" ESO.
Ah, so would carrying folk through dungeons be "P2W"? How about the passives on crafting? Those P2W as well?
Still moot because "win" usually means "beaten everything on offer" and that's not what MMOs are about.
Incorrect, the title itself is the winning achievement.
Someone being carried through a dungeon has no affect on point.
By your argument, people who purchase the best items in game for real life money in other games (another example of pay to win) who help their team, is it pay to win for the team members? Its a non related argument in a case where pay to win very much exists, just like this game.
2 -
FLuFFyxMuFFiN✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter ).
There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.
Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.
I could get a free full set of crafted gear from a friend as soon as I make a new character so that point is invalid and the amount of gold someone makes doesn't give them an advantage either. Also when people sell the gear they craft they usually just charge for mats or have the person provide the mats which cannot be bought in the crown store. These points you are trying to make are nonsense.2 -
Acrolas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You do have to buy the game, so in very basic terms, it is pay to win. If someone doesn't pay, you can't play the game at all.
Since we're breaking the actual *** meaning of words three years into this tired argument, can we make up new terms, too?
Maybe something like P2MTAHCID (Pay To Make Threads About How Crafting Is Dead)?
Because that's what research scrolls get you.signing off1 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »This game is absolutely pay to win, you just have to go through hoops but it's still pay to win.
You do have to buy the game, so in very basic terms, it is pay to win. If someone doesn't pay, you can't play the game at all.
I'm still waiting for one of the "time warp scrolls are pay to win" people to tell me what it is that I could "win". Yes, you get a 9 trait crafter. Yes, you can make any crafted set of gear in the game. AND SO WHAT DO YOU WIN?
You don't get on the leaderboards. You don't get teh bestest weapons automatically appearing in your inventory. You don't get teh bestest dropped armor automatically in your inventory. You get nothing that is uber/super/bestest/oneshot/godmode anything if you have a 9 trait crafter.
What is this leaderboard thing I always see pop up when a guildie completes something? How do you get the "Emperor" title in PVP?
Pay to win means to skirt the typical slow mechanics a game offers to fast track to the best gear in game. Crowns allow for this. Ergo, crowns are pay to win.
That's not "winning" an MMO. That's winning portions of it, it could be argued. For many that leaderboard business is moot as is the Emperorship because neither of those constitute "winning an MMO". Both are difficult to be sure but achieving either of them doesn't mean you "win" ESO.
Ah, so would carrying folk through dungeons be "P2W"? How about the passives on crafting? Those P2W as well?
Still moot because "win" usually means "beaten everything on offer" and that's not what MMOs are about.
Incorrect, the title itself is the winning achievement.
Someone being carried through a dungeon has no affect on point.
By your argument, people who purchase the best items in game for real life money in other games (another example of pay to win) who help their team, is it pay to win for the team members? Its a non related argument in a case where pay to win very much exists, just like this game.
At the end of the day, the Emperor title has no effect either. It's just pixels and does not constitute "winning" ESO. As I said before, it's one bit of ESO but gaining that isn't winning the game.
Any aspect you can stipulate, I will counter with "there is no winning an MMO" because...there's no way to win an MMO.
Now, in non-MMOs, oh absolutely there is P2W and it is just that.
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake0
This discussion has been closed.