Pay to Win? The Math on Research Scrolls

DaveMoeDee

badmojo wrote: »

How do you win in ESO? If that is the line in the sand where microtransactions become pay to win, then what do you people consider winning in ESO?

I mentioned stuff like this being p2w because it gets a player to "end game" faster, because that to me is the only thing a player can win in this game. Leaderboards exist, but its not really the common players end goal to get first in vma or become emp in Cyrodiil.

Getting to endgame isn't a win. For many people (definitely NOT me) that is just where the game starts. If endgame is a thing, I don't see a problem with helping people get there. Then, at end game, they can try to win by competing with others.

People not interested in leaderboards or emp, like me, aren't interested in "winning." We are just here to play.

Sgtmeg

I won't argue about the idea of defining pay2win, but I kudos on all the math work Patience is a virtue for sure, and so are crafter friends who can make you what you need without spending money! (Just be sure to pay them!!)

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The fallacy of arguments OP presents is they fail to demonstrate that the item purchased from the crown store provides the character with weapons and gear that make them more powerful than they can with gear obtainable in the game.

He/She goes through a bunch of words and some numbers that really just hide the fact that OP has not demonstrated how this makes a player stronger.

In just two sentences I will completely obliterate the entire OP.

If I need something crafted I can join a guild and ask for someone to craft me the item and ask for a set bonus or trait.
If I need to change a trait of a piece of gear I have I can learn the trait in a matter hour 8 hours. The few traits total per piece would take less than a couple days per piece of armor an weapons.

As someone who ahs all traits learned on 4 characters, almost 5, I certainly fail to see the light of OPs argument.

Hi, I'm the OP.

I don't recall ever calling Research Scrolls Pay to Win. What I did do is work out the math of Research Scrolls compared to patiently researching and offer that as an addition to the debate.

My own belief, as I've stated later in the thread and on other threads, is that the research scrolls arent pay to win because being a 9 trait crafters doesn't give a player anything they couldn't get through other players or using an alt to leanr traits for transmutation.

You and I agree. ive made exactly the same argument in other threads. My point in this thread, however, was to talk about the MATH of researching vs in game scrolls vs crown store scrolls because nobody on either side of the argument seemed to know the math.

If you want to argue with the people who thing crown store scrolls are Pay to win, argue with someone else. I think crown store scrolls are "pay-through-the-nose".

Read your own title. It is perfectly clear and without doubt that you are questioning the P2W aspect.

TBH, I did not read the entire lengthy OP. Looked over it to see what you see the number are. However, based on what you just said it you merely went for the cheap click bait title it seems. BTW, it never matters how much the item costs, pay-through the nose means nothing.

VaranisArano

idk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The fallacy of arguments OP presents is they fail to demonstrate that the item purchased from the crown store provides the character with weapons and gear that make them more powerful than they can with gear obtainable in the game.

He/She goes through a bunch of words and some numbers that really just hide the fact that OP has not demonstrated how this makes a player stronger.

In just two sentences I will completely obliterate the entire OP.

If I need something crafted I can join a guild and ask for someone to craft me the item and ask for a set bonus or trait.
If I need to change a trait of a piece of gear I have I can learn the trait in a matter hour 8 hours. The few traits total per piece would take less than a couple days per piece of armor an weapons.

As someone who ahs all traits learned on 4 characters, almost 5, I certainly fail to see the light of OPs argument.

Hi, I'm the OP.

I don't recall ever calling Research Scrolls Pay to Win. What I did do is work out the math of Research Scrolls compared to patiently researching and offer that as an addition to the debate.

My own belief, as I've stated later in the thread and on other threads, is that the research scrolls arent pay to win because being a 9 trait crafters doesn't give a player anything they couldn't get through other players or using an alt to leanr traits for transmutation.

You and I agree. ive made exactly the same argument in other threads. My point in this thread, however, was to talk about the MATH of researching vs in game scrolls vs crown store scrolls because nobody on either side of the argument seemed to know the math.

If you want to argue with the people who thing crown store scrolls are Pay to win, argue with someone else. I think crown store scrolls are "pay-through-the-nose".

Read your own title. It is perfectly clear and without doubt that you are questioning the P2W aspect.

TBH, I did not read the entire lengthy OP. Looked over it to see what you see the number are. However, based on what you just said it you merely went for the cheap click bait title it seems. BTW, it never matters how much the item costs, pay-through the nose means nothing.

1. This is the second discussion thread of mine to which you've fired off a quick response without bothering to read the entire thing. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here. Last time, you'd have gotten the answer to your problem if you'd bothered to read the whole post. This time, I know there's a lot of math, but its a little strange trying to discuss what I actually said or didn't say in the post with someone who didn't actually read the post and who's apparently making snap judgments from my title, you know?

2. As I said in a post a little lower from the OP, I considered giving it a very academic sounding title like "the Math on Rsearch scrolls: comparing the virtues of patience, in-game scrolls, and Crown Research Scrolls"

Then I thought, "Nah, that doesn't sound like anything anyone wants to read." The thread title might be click-bait, but it gets read AND it ties into the reason I did the math in the first place. I did the math because no one complaining about pay to win seemed to have any idea of the comparisons, and I thought it made an interesting addition to the debate ggoing on, as I mentioned in the post itself.

I answered my own question for myself. Pay to Win? More like pay through the nose for convenience. Other people can draw their own conclusion from the data.

Charliff1966

Could it be that its so expensive because they dont want everybody to buy the scroll. Afterall those who do it in game stay probably longer then those who spent the crowns.

VaranisArano

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Could it be that its so expensive because they dont want everybody to buy the scroll. Afterall those who do it in game stay probably longer then those who spent the crowns.

I do think its expensive because ZOS knows it takes somewhat around 1-2 years to become a full 9-trait crafter. $2000 to instantly become a 9 trait crafters vs 1-2 years patiently researching starts to look like a balanced, but still expensive method for players to catch up conveniently.

I was rather amused by the notion of saving 34 crowns every hour I research patiently.

BuddyAces

VaranisArano wrote: »

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Could it be that its so expensive because they dont want everybody to buy the scroll. Afterall those who do it in game stay probably longer then those who spent the crowns.

I do think its expensive because ZOS knows it takes somewhat around 1-2 years to become a full 9-trait crafter. $2000 to instantly become a 9 trait crafters vs 1-2 years patiently researching starts to look like a balanced, but still expensive method for players to catch up conveniently.

I was rather amused by the notion of saving 34 crowns every hour I research patiently.

I think it's expensive because they don't think anyone's going to actually use em to burn off all 9 traits instantly. I think they were going more for people who want to burn a couple days off of research here and there. I'm just shocked anyone would even buy them, I mean, more power to you if that's your thing but they are worthless in my eyes.

Charliff1966

Some people burn 300 bucks on a saturday night on entertainment, some people spend thousands on a holliday. So why cant people spend money in a game they love?

Sgtmeg

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Some people burn 300 bucks on a saturday night on entertainment, some people spend thousands on a holliday. So why cant people spend money in a game they love?

Completely agreed, but we can't forget about companies encouraging bad spending habits either. You wouldn't spend 300 dollars EVERY Saturday night, for example. Overspending, price jacking and encouraging gambling habits are real issues too. Gotta have a balance where you can spend, but smartly.

Charliff1966

Sgtmeg wrote: »

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Some people burn 300 bucks on a saturday night on entertainment, some people spend thousands on a holliday. So why cant people spend money in a game they love?

Completely agreed, but we can't forget about companies encouraging bad spending habits either. You wouldn't spend 300 dollars EVERY Saturday night, for example. Overspending, price jacking and encouraging gambling habits are real issues too. Gotta have a balance where you can spend, but smartly.

True, banning crates though wont happen. There might be a change so they tell us what percentage the droprate of items are but that doesnt save those who are gambling addicts. Is that a problem Zenimax should solve though?

My only point was that some people see certain prices for items as greed and blame those that have no problem with it for the existance of those prices. Would i pay 13.000 for a house? Nope, my wife though sees no problem with the price. Would she do that every day, of course not. But people blaming her because she sees the price as ok and others dont, is stupid.
We know what we can spend and work hard for the money so we can spend it.

JKorr

badmojo wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

They exchanged money for crowns and crowns for time. What on Nirn did they win?

Coming soon the crownstore....

Lazy Scroller Bundle

---

-15 max level characters, 3 of each class, plus 15 name, race and appearance change tokens.
-1 000 000 of every material
-Every BOP set piece in the game, legendary quality
-Every BOE set piece in the game, legendary quality
-All traits on all characters
-All skillpoints
-3600 champion points
-10 000 000 gold
-Every mount obtainable with gold
-PVP rank 50
-All titles
-Every skill line at max level
-Every motif obtainable in-game
-Every recipe and furnishing recipe
-etc(basically everything you can get in the game without spending crowns)

Is that still not pay to win?

Um...yeah, in your example, they are buying gear that isn't crafted, already improved to legendary. That is better than crafted sets. That gear can't be crafted. Yes, that alone would be pay to win. The rest of your example is really over the top pointless sarcasm. Also that is not what is under discussion. The time warp scrolls.

So, going back to reducing research time for traits for crafted sets that are not bis dropped gear, what are the people who buy the time warp scrolls winning?

EDIT: Especially since any 9 trait crafter can make the gear. Ask your guild crafters. For the people who claim to know no one in the game at all, and have actual physical aversion to joining a guild, ask in zone chat for a 9 trait crafter. The player who wants the crafted gear does not have to have all 9 traits researched to use the crafted gear.

VaranisArano

I've updated the original post to include a discussion of ZOS' new Research Scroll for ALL research in the new Scalecaller Crown Crates.



Its nearly impossible to do the math on cost-effectiveness because ZOS does not release the gambling odds for Crown Crates.

Still, I usually get about 4 crown gems per crate (small sample size because I only get the free crates). At that rate, I'd need 25 crates to get the 100 crown gems necessary to buy the All Research scroll. Its cheaper to buy 30 crates, so if I don't get an All Research scroll in those 30 crates, the cost of buying the scroll with crown gems is 10,000 crowns. If I do get a scroll, obviously, that's lower in cost. In contrast, three 7-day scrolls costs 7,500 crowns.

TLDR: ZOS, releasing the odds on Crown Crates would make math people like me happy.

Merlin13KAGL

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

Time is a factor in an MMORPG. When you can cut your time investment down, that is pay2win.

How much $$$ does the poor man save by being patient and doing it the normal way, ultimately reaching same level as the rich man, with lots more cash in his pocket as a result?

Time is a factor in MMO's. I would argue that the the poor man is likely to end up more skilled because of the additional time invested. And how much time did the rich man really save, since it take so terribly long to hit CP160?

It is the time invested that leads to the game understanding and player skill. Not the gear. Not the CP level. Not the trait craft.

The rich man's not going to magically need 100 less hours learning vMA or anything else. He's simply going to get there a little faster.

Your anecdote may sound plausible, but some flaws remain.

EDIT: The other factor your story neglects is that part of why the rich man probably didn't become a rich man through shelling out unnecessary $ as opposed to being patient and investing his time.

BuddyAces

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

If a millionaire and a poor man both started playing ESO at the same time and invested the same amount of playtime, but the millionaire purchased everything the crown store has that would help them progress, and the poor man purchased nothing but the base game.... who do you think would hit 1000000gold first? Who would hit cp cap first? Who would be doing veteran trials first? Who would be clearing vma first?

Time is a factor in an MMORPG. When you can cut your time investment down, that is pay2win.

How much $$$ does the poor man save by being patient and doing it the normal way, ultimately reaching same level as the rich man, with lots more cash in his pocket as a result?

Time is a factor in MMO's. I would argue that the the poor man is likely to end up more skilled because of the additional time invested. And how much time did the rich man really save, since it take so terribly long to hit CP160?

It is the time invested that leads to the game understanding and player skill. Not the gear. Not the CP level. Not the trait craft.

The rich man's not going to magically need 100 less hours learning vMA or anything else. He's simply going to get there a little faster.

Your anecdote may sound plausible, but some flaws remain.

EDIT: The other factor your story neglects is that part of why the rich man probably didn't become a rich man through shelling out unnecessary $ as opposed to being patient and investing his time.

Being rich is not going to get you into vma any sooner...

Maybe by buying ambrosia(s) to level up faster but in no way shape or form can you buy your way to a vma clear.

OrdoHermetica

BuddyAces wrote: »

Being rich is not going to get you into vma any sooner...

Maybe by buying ambrosia(s) to level up faster but in no way shape or form can you buy your way to a vma clear.

I mean... there ARE people out there who sell vMA clears. Granted, you have to trust someone with your account long enough to clear it, but yeah. That exists.

Luciferazazell

I mean look at something as simple as stacking potion how its made to bloat your inventory so you have to buy extra inventory space which granted you can buy for in game gold from a pack merchant for alot of gold when you start getting to those high inventory space numbers OR you can buy space from the crown store all for convenience of the player lol and money ofcourse
. They could easily do the same as they do with poison just one stack as long as its the same potion same quality and level but no potions apparently only need to be stacked by 100 lol This is just magicka mind you lets not for get theres health and stamina and i believe when you craft the potions it does stack by 200 but which is still not how it should stack .