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Pay to Win? The Math on Research Scrolls
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Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭I beat Molag Bal knowing zero traits. I win the game lol. No P2W here, move along.3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EvilAutoTech wrote: »300k crowns per character. Assuming one person decides to do it on the current 15 characters slots on just a server that would be: 300k crowns x 15 char = 4,500k crowns. Dividing that number with 21k crown packs give us 215 x 21k crown packs. Finally, each of these 21k crown packs cost $150 each, so... 215 x $150 = $4,515 for 15 characters per server.
That's insane.
Actually, it's even more insane than you posted. Your last equation is incorrect.
215 X $150 is $32,250
That's a lot of money. I'm not sure why you'd need more than one 9-trait crafter per account, but wow!0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For anyone calling the Crown Research Scrolls Pay-to-win, I'm curious. What do you think of the high price to max out crafting?
For anyone who thinks the Crown Research Scrolls are Pay-For-Convenience or Pay-for-Catch-up, do you think the prices are balanced compared to the time investment of waiting or using In-game research scrolls?0 -
Kodrac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Jealousy does not equate to P2W. That's all this is. Jealous that someone has more expendable income than you. Jealous and/or butthurt that someone climbed the mountain faster than you did. No one won anything either way.2 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Play to win has different meanings for the various types of games in the market.
This was written 7 years ago on urban dictionary.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
the FACT is if player A who is new to the game can purchase their way to craft full tier sets and experience scrolls to get to max level in a day.
Player B who is new to the game will not be able to make full tier (and in some cases BIS) by day two by playing the game only.
The FACT is, the crown store is PAY TO WIN by the very definition of PAY TO WIN. The argument "you can have it crafted for you" does not apply to new people who do not know anyone. Its the same argument that the play to win guy in an FPS won the match for the rest of the team. The rest of the team winning does not mean that the pay to win account is not pay to win.
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Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »For anyone calling the Crown Research Scrolls Pay-to-win, I'm curious. What do you think of the high price to max out crafting?
For anyone who thinks the Crown Research Scrolls are Pay-For-Convenience or Pay-for-Catch-up, do you think the prices are balanced compared to the time investment of waiting or using In-game research scrolls?
The prices for research scrolls go beyond the well defined dictionary definition of pure unadulterated greed....and are also defined as pay to win.1 -
Kodrac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »For anyone who thinks the Crown Research Scrolls are Pay-For-Convenience or Pay-for-Catch-up, do you think the prices are balanced compared to the time investment of waiting or using In-game research scrolls?
Gods no. This is Zo$ remember. Everything is overpriced.2 -
Kodrac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The argument "you can have it crafted for you" does not apply to new people who do not know anyone. Its the same argument that the play to win guy in an FPS won the match for the rest of the team. The rest of the team winning does not mean that the pay to win account is not pay to win.
There's a flaw in your argument.This was written 7 years ago on urban dictionary.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.better items then everyone else
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Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The argument "you can have it crafted for you" does not apply to new people who do not know anyone. Its the same argument that the play to win guy in an FPS won the match for the rest of the team. The rest of the team winning does not mean that the pay to win account is not pay to win.
There's a flaw in your argument.This was written 7 years ago on urban dictionary.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.better items then everyone else
There is no flaw in my argument, you are cherry picking a single word, a terrible semantic argument.
By your definition, pay to win would mean only 1 person in the entire world would get that benefit, which is clearly not the case. So please, if you intend to argue a point at least try.
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FLuFFyxMuFFiN✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Play to win has different meanings for the various types of games in the market.
This was written 7 years ago on urban dictionary.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
So gaining the ability to craft gear that thousands of other players already have access to somehow makes the game unbalanced? Okay then. Feel free to stick with your delusional ways but if you need me I'll be around staying woke2 -
kringled_1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
for a magplar tbs (which is 9 trait) with julianos is pretty good, or would be if you could craft jewellery to go with it.
the only gold i've made from crafting gear is from lvl1 stuff with traits on for others to research.
Yeah, I don't think the 7-9 sets are all bad; I just made a Kagrenac's hope set for a PvP magplar healer I'm trying. Might work well in some of the dungeons I've pugged as well, rezzes aplenty. I just regard that as a rather niche usage compared to Julianos.
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Kodrac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There is no flaw in my argument, you are cherry picking a single word, a terrible semantic argument.
By your definition, pay to win would mean only 1 person in the entire world would get that benefit, which is clearly not the case. So please, if you intend to argue a point at least try.
No it's not cherry picking at all. I'm using your own definition that you laid out. P2W is getting better items than everyone else gets by normally playing the game. Your flaw is that nothing in the crown store gives you or lets you create better items. You can argue it's expensive. You can argue that the convenience items are nickle and diming you. But nothing nets you better items.Edited by Kodrac on March 8, 2018 11:39PM3 -
Stefirex✭✭✭There are as many ways to win a game as there are players. EVERYONE has their own definition of what winning is and if they can achieve their goal, and get their prize by paying, it is by their personal definition. PTW! Get over it and stop telling people it's not PTW just because your definition doesn't match theirs.3 -
kringled_1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There are as many ways to win a game as there are players. EVERYONE has their own definition of what winning is and if they can achieve their goal, and get their prize by paying, it is by their personal definition. PTW! Get over it and stop telling people it's not PTW just because your definition doesn't match theirs.
This is so broad a definition of winning that it's meaningless. Cosmetics become P2W because someone values reaching a particular appearance. At that point, you've just defined having a cash shop with anything at all in it as P2W.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The fallacy of arguments OP presents is they fail to demonstrate that the item purchased from the crown store provides the character with weapons and gear that make them more powerful than they can with gear obtainable in the game.
He/She goes through a bunch of words and some numbers that really just hide the fact that OP has not demonstrated how this makes a player stronger.
In just two sentences I will completely obliterate the entire OP.
If I need something crafted I can join a guild and ask for someone to craft me the item and ask for a set bonus or trait.
If I need to change a trait of a piece of gear I have I can learn the trait in a matter hour 8 hours. The few traits total per piece would take less than a couple days per piece of armor an weapons.
As someone who ahs all traits learned on 4 characters, almost 5, I certainly fail to see the light of OPs argument.1 -
Stefirex✭✭✭kringled_1 wrote: »There are as many ways to win a game as there are players. EVERYONE has their own definition of what winning is and if they can achieve their goal, and get their prize by paying, it is by their personal definition. PTW! Get over it and stop telling people it's not PTW just because your definition doesn't match theirs.
This is so broad a definition of winning that it's meaningless. Cosmetics become P2W because someone values reaching a particular appearance. At that point, you've just defined having a cash shop with anything at all in it as P2W.
It's not any more meaningless than you defining winning to match your own personal goals. Maybe you should look up the word,
Mirrium's Webster's Dictionary Definition of Win:Definition of win
won play \ˈwən\; winning
transitive verb
1 a : to get possession of by effort or fortune
b : to obtain by work : earn
striving to win a living from the sterile soil
2 a : to gain in or as if in battle or contest
won the championship
b : to be the victor in
won the war
3 a : to make friendly or favorable to oneself or to one's cause —often used with over
won him over with persuasive arguments
b : to induce to accept oneself in marriage
was unable to win the woman he loved
4 a : to obtain (something, such as ore, coal, or clay) by mining
b : to prepare (a vein or bed) for regular mining
c : to recover (metal) from ore
5 : to reach by expenditure of effort
In case you couldn't hear it, the first definition was followed by the sound of the Mic being dropped!Edited by Stefirex on March 9, 2018 12:39AM1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Play to win has different meanings for the various types of games in the market.
This was written 7 years ago on urban dictionary.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
the FACT is if player A who is new to the game can purchase their way to craft full tier sets and experience scrolls to get to max level in a day.
And join the thousands of other maxed-out crafters who are already in existence. So I'm not sure what "better items" they can make "faster". And how they will therefore unbalance the game. ESO is not new, and crafting is not some Amazing God Ability - the person who drops a bundle on research scrolls tomorrow will not be the one source of top-tier stuff, gouging everyone else on the server with jacked up prices and amassing all the gold.
Honestly, since ESO doesn't keep jacking the level cap & releasing new crafting recipes that can only be gained from the new max-level raids - like, say, WoW - there's really no ability to dominate the market by being the only crafter who can make something. Even when a new DLC has new crafted sets, they're still unlocked by having the same 9 traits researched. Any new set can be made by a huge number of people, there's nothing to profit on anymore. There's no more "I win" in crafting. Lots of people have 9 traits, and it just increases over time. Newer players having a (stupid tax) option to get to 9 traits faster just waters down the market even further. It doesn't "win" them anything, except maybe the ability to craft their own gear for their own use.
Truly trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Drama for drama's sake.
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The fallacy of arguments OP presents is they fail to demonstrate that the item purchased from the crown store provides the character with weapons and gear that make them more powerful than they can with gear obtainable in the game.
He/She goes through a bunch of words and some numbers that really just hide the fact that OP has not demonstrated how this makes a player stronger.
In just two sentences I will completely obliterate the entire OP.
If I need something crafted I can join a guild and ask for someone to craft me the item and ask for a set bonus or trait.
If I need to change a trait of a piece of gear I have I can learn the trait in a matter hour 8 hours. The few traits total per piece would take less than a couple days per piece of armor an weapons.
As someone who ahs all traits learned on 4 characters, almost 5, I certainly fail to see the light of OPs argument.
Hi, I'm the OP.
I don't recall ever calling Research Scrolls Pay to Win. What I did do is work out the math of Research Scrolls compared to patiently researching and offer that as an addition to the debate.
My own belief, as I've stated later in the thread and on other threads, is that the research scrolls arent pay to win because being a 9 trait crafters doesn't give a player anything they couldn't get through other players or using an alt to leanr traits for transmutation.
You and I agree. ive made exactly the same argument in other threads. My point in this thread, however, was to talk about the MATH of researching vs in game scrolls vs crown store scrolls because nobody on either side of the argument seemed to know the math.
If you want to argue with the people who thing crown store scrolls are Pay to win, argue with someone else. I think crown store scrolls are "pay-through-the-nose".
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exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
that is absolutely not what pay to win means. That definition is some bastardized modern definition made up by people who have never experienced actual p2w games (which are extremely rare nowdays) who likely dont rememeber what free to play online gaming was actually like before LoL blew up.
Pay to win means to skirt the typical slow mechanics a game offers to fast track to the best gear in game. Crowns allow for this. Ergo, crowns are pay to win.This game is absolutely pay to win, you just have to go through hoops but it's still pay to win.
You do have to buy the game, so in very basic terms, it is pay to win. If someone doesn't pay, you can't play the game at all.
I'm still waiting for one of the "time warp scrolls are pay to win" people to tell me what it is that I could "win". Yes, you get a 9 trait crafter. Yes, you can make any crafted set of gear in the game. AND SO WHAT DO YOU WIN?
You don't get on the leaderboards. You don't get teh bestest weapons automatically appearing in your inventory. You don't get teh bestest dropped armor automatically in your inventory. You get nothing that is uber/super/bestest/oneshot/godmode anything if you have a 9 trait crafter.
There is nothing p2w in eso, period. Its not even open to opinions ffs. Circumventing any type of grind time is not pay to win no mater how *** it is in certain games.
Edited by exeeter702 on March 9, 2018 12:41AM1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The argument "you can have it crafted for you" does not apply to new people who do not know anyone. Its the same argument that the play to win guy in an FPS won the match for the rest of the team. The rest of the team winning does not mean that the pay to win account is not pay to win.
There's a flaw in your argument.This was written 7 years ago on urban dictionary.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.better items then everyone else
There is no flaw in my argument, you are cherry picking a single word, a terrible semantic argument.
By your definition, pay to win would mean only 1 person in the entire world would get that benefit, which is clearly not the case. So please, if you intend to argue a point at least try.
No. He's not. That's a very important concept you just dumped in your race to get to the end first.
Actually, several points you missed along the way.
Even if you decide to commit to burning XP pots to grind to level cap in a day... you can't. Not from the word go, not without know what you're doing.
Yes, it's theoretically possible. Your player could go to Skyreach Catacombs, and pop a scroll, and then set off grinding... except, then the first problem already pops up: How are they going to farm Skyreach? That's not cheap if you're hiring other players, so that means you need to have money in game before hand.
Before you question it, yes, some players can, and do, farm Skyreach Catacombs alone, but those are players who already know the game inside out. That's not something your FotB Newbie will be able to buy their way to.
So, your newbie just dropped thousands of dollars on research scrolls... and now they can instantaneously max out their crafting... except... with what?
I don't know if you craft, but in order to research a trait, you need an item with that trait in your inventory to use for research. Okay, so, most items are pretty easy to come by, but then you get to Nirn. Now, prices vary, but buying all 34 nirnhoned research pieces will set you back around 300k (at least on PC/NA) and that's assuming you can get your hands on them.
So, where does your FotB newbie get the 300k they need to do this? Not from the Crown Store.
But, we're not done.
Your impossible newbie has just hit 720, and it's time for them to craft their best in slot gear. But, I'm having a bit of a brain fart, can you remind me where you craft SPC or Mending (if they want to be a healer), where you craft Ebon Armory, Plague Doctor, or Alkosh (if they're a tank, and remember, they'll need to craft that Alkosh jewelry), or where they can craft those really useful DPS sets like TFS, or Scathing...
Oh, right... you can't. Those are all drop sets. In fact, a lot of BiS gear is dropped. There are some really vital crafted sets out there. Stuff like Hunding's or Julianos. But those sets are just, "extremely good," not, "best in slot."
But, after all of this, and your impossible newbie's super-credit-card-powers, they scamper off into the wild, and immediately upgrade all their gear to gold, which requires another half a million gold that they didn't get from the crown store.5 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »
that is absolutely not what pay to win means. That definition is some bastardized modern definition made up by people who have never experienced actual p2w games (which are extremely rare nowdays) who likely dont rememeber what free to play online gaming was actually like before LoL blew up.
Pay to win means to skirt the typical slow mechanics a game offers to fast track to the best gear in game. Crowns allow for this. Ergo, crowns are pay to win.This game is absolutely pay to win, you just have to go through hoops but it's still pay to win.
You do have to buy the game, so in very basic terms, it is pay to win. If someone doesn't pay, you can't play the game at all.
I'm still waiting for one of the "time warp scrolls are pay to win" people to tell me what it is that I could "win". Yes, you get a 9 trait crafter. Yes, you can make any crafted set of gear in the game. AND SO WHAT DO YOU WIN?
You don't get on the leaderboards. You don't get teh bestest weapons automatically appearing in your inventory. You don't get teh bestest dropped armor automatically in your inventory. You get nothing that is uber/super/bestest/oneshot/godmode anything if you have a 9 trait crafter.
There is nothing p2w in eso, period. Its not even open to opinions ffs. Circumventing any type of grind time is not pay to win no mater how *** it is in certain games.
Imperial is debatable. The base stat buffs are very potent, and at several points in the game's life cycle, they've been arguably the best tanks, and or best Stam DPS. To be fair, I think we've gotten to a point where we can honestly say they simply perform both roles very well, now, and they aren't the clear, best option for both, but it took a few minutes.
Warden isn't really, but there's still a few people that look at the class, and think it's flat out better than anything they can field through other means. This isn't really true, but for some specific roles, there's a legitimate argument to be made, even if it's rarely articulated.
Other than that? Nope, not really.0 -
Zalicius✭✭✭It's definitely not paying to win. It's paying to craft more stuff sooner. There's too much skill involved to complete higher level content and you cant buy that. There's also planning out skill trees and learning mechanics, getting a good rotation and working well with your group. Maybe buying top tier gear would be close to being pay to win, but it's still more than just gear that makes you good.0 -
Thunderknuckles✭✭✭✭"Pay to Win" is a PvP term. It means you can only buy the very top (BiS) gear with real money. Gear that gives you a very decidedly high advantage over other players. Crown store scrolls are not "Pay to Win".
For example, if Maelstrom weapons and their equivalent were only available through monetary purchase....that would be "pay to win".
Then again, we live in an age when terms and phrases are thrown around without people having a clue as to their true meaning and/or taken out of context on a very, very routine basis.3 -
MW2K✭✭✭I don't think ESO yet has anything that I'd regard as a pay to win mechanism. If they ever introduce elite (Collector's Edition) mercenaries a la EQ2 or mithril coins a la LOTRO that make the game a faceroll in the former case and questing much easier in the latter, then the accusation for P2W might be more accurate. As of right now, ESO has nothing in its cash shop that puts the game at the level of these MMOs I've mentioned.
The cynic in me says give it time.Lighting braziers and dispelling wards in Tamriel since 19940 -
Thunderknuckles✭✭✭✭I don't think ESO yet has anything that I'd regard as a pay to win mechanism. If they ever introduce elite (Collector's Edition) mercenaries a la EQ2 or mithril coins a la LOTRO that make the game a faceroll in the former case and questing much easier in the latter, then the accusation for P2W might be more accurate. As of right now, ESO has nothing in its cash shop that puts the game at the level of these MMOs I've mentioned.
The cynic in me says give it time.
LotRO PvP is a perfect example of "pay to win". When I played it 10 years ago you had to grind and earn the ranks and skills to make your toon more powerful. Now.....you can just flat out buy the stuff with your credit card. I understand you can still grind for it, but it literally takes years.0 -
Niobium✭✭✭✭Who are these mythical people who actually make money out of crafting?
Coming from a 9 trait crafter the old fashioned way, I don't make cash for it. I might get a tip, but usually folks provide the materials necessary and I get a nice thank you at the end of it.
This isn't pay to win. This is barely pay for convenience. This is just pay 340,000 crowns so you can make someone's clothes for cost value and a thank you.
There's no "win" here.3 -
Hokiewa✭✭✭✭Play to win has different meanings for the various types of games in the market.
This was written 7 years ago on urban dictionary.
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
the FACT is if player A who is new to the game can purchase their way to craft full tier sets and experience scrolls to get to max level in a day.
Player B who is new to the game will not be able to make full tier (and in some cases BIS) by day two by playing the game only.
The FACT is, the crown store is PAY TO WIN by the very definition of PAY TO WIN. The argument "you can have it crafted for you" does not apply to new people who do not know anyone. Its the same argument that the play to win guy in an FPS won the match for the rest of the team. The rest of the team winning does not mean that the pay to win account is not pay to win.
Still no facts, just opinions. It's been clear what your opinion is for months. Since you love to state how long you've played MMOs, convenience items (time gate bypasses that do not contain completed gear or skill sets and do not provide access to anything that any other player can not access) HAVE never been considered P2W by the "millions of other players that have played MMOs over the last two decades". Now, commence accusing me of being a paid shill for ZOS.
And really, using Urban Dictionary as some sort of definitive proof that your opinion equates fact? Very amusing.Edited by Hokiewa on March 9, 2018 11:48AM2 -
Olen_Mikko✭✭✭✭✭
✭...Edited by Olen_Mikko on March 9, 2018 12:19PMNB enthusiastic:- Woodhippie stamblade - DW hard-hitter / PvE
- Know-it-all elf Magblade - Healer / PvE & PvP
- Hate-them-all elf Magblade - Destrostaff AoE monster / PvE
- Cyrodiil-Refugee stamblade - Stamina Tank / PvE
Go dominion or go home
Nightblade-Hipster. I played Nightblade before it was cool - from 1.5 onwards.0
This discussion has been closed.