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Pay to Win? The Math on Research Scrolls
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Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter
).
There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.
Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.
I could get a free full set of crafted gear from a friend as soon as I make a new character so that point is invalid and the amount of gold someone makes doesn't give them an advantage either. Also when people sell the gear they craft they usually just charge for mats or have the person provide the mats which cannot be bought in the crown store. These points you are trying to make are nonsense.
Gear has no affect on endgame performance for a "new" toon (low level).
I have NEVER seen anyone give out a full legendary set of nirnhoned weapons or legendary gear to anyone in game.
Regardless, its still pay to win if a person used crowns to fast track their abilities in game. Fast tracking to get better gear is the very definition of pay to win.3 -
Juju_beans✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The faster you unlock traits (crowns), the faster your bank unlocks (crowns), the faster your riding, stamina and mount bag space unlock (crowns), the faster you unlock character inventory (crowns) and the mandatory subscription if one chooses to craft (to make gold), all allow you to make gold faster. This is the very definition of PAY TO WIN. You can get some of the best armor in game, in some cases BIS by spending gold. The best and fastest way to make gold is to have all the necessary unlocks open to facilitate making that gold. That is done through crowns.
Sorry you are unable to connect the dots, but this game is very very much "pay to win", they just do it in a way that obfuscates the obvious to most people, such as yourself.
I have more gold saved than some others who have been playing for years.
My traits are not maxed out.
I bought bank slots with my gold.
I bought riding/bag skills with my gold and finished it up.
But I still don't have 9 traits. And not having 9 traits has not prevented me from saving close to 1 million gold along with having 7 homes. And I don't buy crowns; I just get the 1500 with my ESO+ sub.
3 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »This game is absolutely pay to win, you just have to go through hoops but it's still pay to win.
You do have to buy the game, so in very basic terms, it is pay to win. If someone doesn't pay, you can't play the game at all.
I'm still waiting for one of the "time warp scrolls are pay to win" people to tell me what it is that I could "win". Yes, you get a 9 trait crafter. Yes, you can make any crafted set of gear in the game. AND SO WHAT DO YOU WIN?
You don't get on the leaderboards. You don't get teh bestest weapons automatically appearing in your inventory. You don't get teh bestest dropped armor automatically in your inventory. You get nothing that is uber/super/bestest/oneshot/godmode anything if you have a 9 trait crafter.
What is this leaderboard thing I always see pop up when a guildie completes something? How do you get the "Emperor" title in PVP?
Pay to win means to skirt the typical slow mechanics a game offers to fast track to the best gear in game. Crowns allow for this. Ergo, crowns are pay to win.
That's not "winning" an MMO. That's winning portions of it, it could be argued. For many that leaderboard business is moot as is the Emperorship because neither of those constitute "winning an MMO". Both are difficult to be sure but achieving either of them doesn't mean you "win" ESO.
Ah, so would carrying folk through dungeons be "P2W"? How about the passives on crafting? Those P2W as well?
Still moot because "win" usually means "beaten everything on offer" and that's not what MMOs are about.
Incorrect, the title itself is the winning achievement.
Someone being carried through a dungeon has no affect on point.
By your argument, people who purchase the best items in game for real life money in other games (another example of pay to win) who help their team, is it pay to win for the team members? Its a non related argument in a case where pay to win very much exists, just like this game.
At the end of the day, the Emperor title has no effect either. It's just pixels and does not constitute "winning" ESO. As I said before, it's one bit of ESO but gaining that isn't winning the game.
Any aspect you can stipulate, I will counter with "there is no winning an MMO" because...there's no way to win an MMO.
Now, in non-MMOs, oh absolutely there is P2W and it is just that.
I am sorry but you are wrong. Winning in an MMO still exists, in a different form sure but when a new player sees someone in some epic armor or with some epic mount that is rare, that is considered winning, not by me but by literally millions of people who have played mmorpg's over the course of 2 decades.
2 -
riberion✭✭✭It's not like you don't have access to crafted sets if you aren't a max level crafter. As has been pointed out, I can get crafted gear from friends/guildies or buy them from guild stores. This isn't P2W because you already have access to these same sets, you just can't craft them yourself.
And crafted sets aren't even the best in the game.PC NA1 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »
The questions have been answered, you just choose to ignore them.
no they haven't.
i am a 9 trait crafter... i won nothing, there is no title.
am i concerned about the scrolls?
no. i just wish they had been around earlier.
There's another point. Is it "P2W" if you have a crafter (who didn't use scrolls to head that one off) make great armor or weapons or, hell, even food/drink?
all things that anyone can buy from another player... no exclusivity there.
how many emperors (current or past) or top leaderboard players do you see in only crafted gear?0 -
jcaceresw✭✭✭✭✭300k crowns per character. Assuming one person decides to do it on the current 15 characters slots on just a server that would be: 300k crowns x 15 char = 4,500k crowns. Dividing that number with 21k crown packs give us 215 x 21k crown packs. Finally, each of these 21k crown packs cost $150 each, so... 215 x $150 = $4,515 for 15 characters per server.
That's insane.0 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »This game is absolutely pay to win, you just have to go through hoops but it's still pay to win.
You do have to buy the game, so in very basic terms, it is pay to win. If someone doesn't pay, you can't play the game at all.
I'm still waiting for one of the "time warp scrolls are pay to win" people to tell me what it is that I could "win". Yes, you get a 9 trait crafter. Yes, you can make any crafted set of gear in the game. AND SO WHAT DO YOU WIN?
You don't get on the leaderboards. You don't get teh bestest weapons automatically appearing in your inventory. You don't get teh bestest dropped armor automatically in your inventory. You get nothing that is uber/super/bestest/oneshot/godmode anything if you have a 9 trait crafter.
What is this leaderboard thing I always see pop up when a guildie completes something? How do you get the "Emperor" title in PVP?
Pay to win means to skirt the typical slow mechanics a game offers to fast track to the best gear in game. Crowns allow for this. Ergo, crowns are pay to win.
That's not "winning" an MMO. That's winning portions of it, it could be argued. For many that leaderboard business is moot as is the Emperorship because neither of those constitute "winning an MMO". Both are difficult to be sure but achieving either of them doesn't mean you "win" ESO.
Ah, so would carrying folk through dungeons be "P2W"? How about the passives on crafting? Those P2W as well?
Still moot because "win" usually means "beaten everything on offer" and that's not what MMOs are about.
Incorrect, the title itself is the winning achievement.
Someone being carried through a dungeon has no affect on point.
By your argument, people who purchase the best items in game for real life money in other games (another example of pay to win) who help their team, is it pay to win for the team members? Its a non related argument in a case where pay to win very much exists, just like this game.
At the end of the day, the Emperor title has no effect either. It's just pixels and does not constitute "winning" ESO. As I said before, it's one bit of ESO but gaining that isn't winning the game.
Any aspect you can stipulate, I will counter with "there is no winning an MMO" because...there's no way to win an MMO.
Now, in non-MMOs, oh absolutely there is P2W and it is just that.
I am sorry but you are wrong. Winning in an MMO still exists, in a different form sure but when a new player sees someone in some epic armor or with some epic mount that is rare, that is considered winning, not by me but by literally millions of people who have played mmorpg's over the course of 2 decades.
No you're not and I'm not.
I've honestly never, ever heard that definition for "winning" and, since we're playing the Gaming GeezerCard, I have been playing since UO, actually before that but I start "counting" at UO.
I posit that newbs who see folk who've more than they have see it as something to aim for but getting it doesn't constitute a win, nor does not getting it constitute a loss.
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake3 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »
The questions have been answered, you just choose to ignore them.
no they haven't.
i am a 9 trait crafter... i won nothing, there is no title.
am i concerned about the scrolls?
no. i just wish they had been around earlier.
There's another point. Is it "P2W" if you have a crafter (who didn't use scrolls to head that one off) make great armor or weapons or, hell, even food/drink?
all things that anyone can buy from another player... no exclusivity there.
how many emperors (current or past) or top leaderboard players do you see in only crafted gear?
Can't answer that last because, well, I don't hang with the PvP crowd.
As to the "ooooh, someone bought a scroll and got there before I did, omg omg omg", that just doesn't faze me. I guess if one measures their enjoyment or validation based on someone getting there faster, scrolls would be annoying. But, not "winning".
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake1 -
author, you keep in mind that crown store scrolls isnt All Research scrolls, but separated by professions?0
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jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »
The questions have been answered, you just choose to ignore them.
no they haven't.
i am a 9 trait crafter... i won nothing, there is no title.
am i concerned about the scrolls?
no. i just wish they had been around earlier.
There's another point. Is it "P2W" if you have a crafter (who didn't use scrolls to head that one off) make great armor or weapons or, hell, even food/drink?
all things that anyone can buy from another player... no exclusivity there.
how many emperors (current or past) or top leaderboard players do you see in only crafted gear?
Can't answer that last because, well, I don't hang with the PvP crowd.
As to the "ooooh, someone bought a scroll and got there before I did, omg omg omg", that just doesn't faze me. I guess if one measures their enjoyment or validation based on someone getting there faster, scrolls would be annoying. But, not "winning".
yeah.. i don't hang with them either. but most that i see have, at least, two or possibly three pieces of dropped gear. i use those two examples because they are objective 'wins'. emperor or top of the leaderboard for whatever. for that moment those people are winners.0 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ya....not exactly.
"Winning" in and MMORPG has multiple meanings. As its been LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG established in the MMORPG gaming industry, collecting is a HUGE MASSIVE part of an MMORPG. Those who have the cool mounts, armor, etc are "winning".
Secondly. Making gold in ESO is extremely difficult on the large scale for the average person. Making large amounts of gold requires all bank slots to be unlocked, all traits to be researched (which can take the better part of a year to complete), requires a subscription for the bag and requires being in a number of well established trade guilds and you generally only get into the established trade guilds if you are selling a lot, or donating a lot of gold.
Grinding alone does not make gold, and every time someone finds a way of making gold faster, ZOS nurfs it. When boss drops are a paltry 1-3 gold, and mob drops are no better and when many white items sell for ZERO, its basically ZOS making it hard to make gold in game.
Why?
To lead and force players to the crown store.
The faster you unlock traits (crowns), the faster your bank unlocks (crowns), the faster your riding, stamina and mount bag space unlock (crowns), the faster you unlock character inventory (crowns) and the mandatory subscription if one chooses to craft (to make gold), all allow you to make gold faster. This is the very definition of PAY TO WIN. You can get some of the best armor in game, in some cases BIS by spending gold. The best and fastest way to make gold is to have all the necessary unlocks open to facilitate making that gold. That is done through crowns.
Sorry you are unable to connect the dots, but this game is very very much "pay to win", they just do it in a way that obfuscates the obvious to most people, such as yourself.
What do you win if you manage to accrue all the gold in the game? Why is it vital to get gold as fast as possible?
The boss drops you can decon and sell the mats and tempers from? The mob drops you can decon and sell the mats and tempers from? [not to mention doing so raises your crafting skill, and lets you unlock crafting passives faster WITHOUT SCROLLS]
The crafting bag does make things easier, true. However, everyone played at least two years WITHOUT a crafting bag because it didn't exist. People still collected mats and still crafted. Inventory shuffle is a pain, but it is doable.
Ask around about the guilds; in pc/na there are quite a few guilds that consistently get traders, don't require dues, high sales every week, don't require donations, and offer voluntary participation raffles and auctions. I'm in one; if there is an open slot, any guildmember can send out an invite, no fee involved.
I guess I have a different viewpoint; I started my characters in early access, before the trading guilds really started. Maxed the bank space first, then the inventory space for 7 characters. I farmed mats and made mule alts for additional inventory space that turned into real characters.Yes, eventually I had crowns built up from subbing, so the last character I bought the last two or three inventory upgrades in the crown store.
None of that has gotten my characters the emperor's crown, top slot on a leaderboard, best time in a trial, or anything else that could be considered "winning" aside from fun playing the game.
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ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pay to catch up, not pay to win. Still BS either way but it is what it is and it isn't pay to win. Do you get an advantage in your actual gameplay by being a better crafter? Not at all no."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm1 -
kringled_1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thanks for working through the math a bit @VaranisArano . My impression before was that these were a bad deal for most people but this makes it seem even more so. I'm at just over a year into playing, without any scrolls I'm at 7 traits across the board, mostly 9 in woodworking, and I haven't even put more than one skill point in each of the research passives. (Not enough skill points). At that, I have just about every trait I want, much of the rest is armor nirn and invigorating, some training. The only rush on any of it for me at this point is meeting the requirements on a master writ, and I can and do sell ones that are too far from doable for me.
As for all the p2w silliness, I'm still waiting to hear which 7-9 trait sets you can reliably make money on, or that are even useful except for small niche builds.2 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »
The questions have been answered, you just choose to ignore them.
no they haven't.
i am a 9 trait crafter... i won nothing, there is no title.
am i concerned about the scrolls?
no. i just wish they had been around earlier.
There's another point. Is it "P2W" if you have a crafter (who didn't use scrolls to head that one off) make great armor or weapons or, hell, even food/drink?
all things that anyone can buy from another player... no exclusivity there.
how many emperors (current or past) or top leaderboard players do you see in only crafted gear?
Can't answer that last because, well, I don't hang with the PvP crowd.
As to the "ooooh, someone bought a scroll and got there before I did, omg omg omg", that just doesn't faze me. I guess if one measures their enjoyment or validation based on someone getting there faster, scrolls would be annoying. But, not "winning".
yeah.. i don't hang with them either. but most that i see have, at least, two or possibly three pieces of dropped gear. i use those two examples because they are objective 'wins'. emperor or top of the leaderboard for whatever. for that moment those people are winners.
Ah! I see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.
But (there had to be one) it's not winning the game.
I think this all boils down to the old "journey vs. destination" schism. There are those for whom the destination is the pinnacle and they consider that to be a "win" even though it will be short lived when either they get toppled or new content is added. Then there are those for whom the journey is the thing.
Or, yet another way to look at it; battle vs. war
The "war" in an MMO is unwinnable (at least one hopes it will be or game stagnates) but there are battle victories.
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake1 -
PlagueSD✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oh for heaven's sake. Pay to win means there is content that you can buy within the game with real money, which will make you stronger than anything that you can acquire without paying for.
None, absolutely none of the items in the crown store will make you stronger than the ingame items. It will only allow you to reach the same state faster.
Once and for all: there is no pay to win. None. DLC, or a chapter, is not pay to win. It's what was called an extension before, or even "the next in series".
This endless and useless and baseless discussion is very very boring by now.
Correct. The best example of "Pay2Win" is the mobile app "Game of War" In this game, you build your city and defend it with troops. What makes this pay to win is the fact you can buy troops with real money (instead of training them - which takes a while) and invade other players and steal their resources. By paying real money, you can quickly upgrade your city and troops a LOT faster than someone that doesn't spend money.
Paying to speed up trait research is NOT a pay2win scenario as it does not provide any relevant "advantage" in game. This is more of a "convenience" than anything.2 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭kringled_1 wrote: »Thanks for working through the math a bit @VaranisArano . My impression before was that these were a bad deal for most people but this makes it seem even more so. I'm at just over a year into playing, without any scrolls I'm at 7 traits across the board, mostly 9 in woodworking, and I haven't even put more than one skill point in each of the research passives. (Not enough skill points). At that, I have just about every trait I want, much of the rest is armor nirn and invigorating, some training. The only rush on any of it for me at this point is meeting the requirements on a master writ, and I can and do sell ones that are too far from doable for me.
As for all the p2w silliness, I'm still waiting to hear which 7-9 trait sets you can reliably make money on, or that are even useful except for small niche builds.
for a magplar tbs (which is 9 trait) with julianos is pretty good, or would be if you could craft jewellery to go with it.
the only gold i've made from crafting gear is from lvl1 stuff with traits on for others to research.0 -
randomkeyhits✭✭✭✭✭I would say it actually could be called pay 2 win though the game at its current state mitigates the fact.
If these scrolls had been in on day #1 of the games release then they would absolutely be declared to be P2W. Oh look, rather than plug through that very long research period I can buy some scrolls and be able to craft these sweet 9 trait sets immediately. You suckers havn't dropped your crowns into the scrolls? tough.
Now the impact of that is lost, guildies/friends can make you the appropriate sets with almost no effort, they may ask for mats but thats all it needs. So at this stage of the game it gets considered a catch up method.
Seen it in other games too. Later game offerings which would have been riot inducing on release end up just... .meh...EU PS41 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »
The questions have been answered, you just choose to ignore them.
no they haven't.
i am a 9 trait crafter... i won nothing, there is no title.
am i concerned about the scrolls?
no. i just wish they had been around earlier.
There's another point. Is it "P2W" if you have a crafter (who didn't use scrolls to head that one off) make great armor or weapons or, hell, even food/drink?
all things that anyone can buy from another player... no exclusivity there.
how many emperors (current or past) or top leaderboard players do you see in only crafted gear?
Can't answer that last because, well, I don't hang with the PvP crowd.
As to the "ooooh, someone bought a scroll and got there before I did, omg omg omg", that just doesn't faze me. I guess if one measures their enjoyment or validation based on someone getting there faster, scrolls would be annoying. But, not "winning".
yeah.. i don't hang with them either. but most that i see have, at least, two or possibly three pieces of dropped gear. i use those two examples because they are objective 'wins'. emperor or top of the leaderboard for whatever. for that moment those people are winners.
Ah! I see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.
But (there had to be one) it's not winning the game.
I think this all boils down to the old "journey vs. destination" schism. There are those for whom the destination is the pinnacle and they consider that to be a "win" even though it will be short lived when either they get toppled or new content is added. Then there are those for whom the journey is the thing.
Or, yet another way to look at it; battle vs. war
The "war" in an MMO is unwinnable (at least one hopes it will be or game stagnates) but there are battle victories.
yes... i take your point there is a win in terms of a specific battle but in the bigger picture (to paraphrase fallout 4)
war... war never ends...1 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »
The questions have been answered, you just choose to ignore them.
no they haven't.
i am a 9 trait crafter... i won nothing, there is no title.
am i concerned about the scrolls?
no. i just wish they had been around earlier.
There's another point. Is it "P2W" if you have a crafter (who didn't use scrolls to head that one off) make great armor or weapons or, hell, even food/drink?
all things that anyone can buy from another player... no exclusivity there.
how many emperors (current or past) or top leaderboard players do you see in only crafted gear?
Can't answer that last because, well, I don't hang with the PvP crowd.
As to the "ooooh, someone bought a scroll and got there before I did, omg omg omg", that just doesn't faze me. I guess if one measures their enjoyment or validation based on someone getting there faster, scrolls would be annoying. But, not "winning".
yeah.. i don't hang with them either. but most that i see have, at least, two or possibly three pieces of dropped gear. i use those two examples because they are objective 'wins'. emperor or top of the leaderboard for whatever. for that moment those people are winners.
Ah! I see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.
But (there had to be one) it's not winning the game.
I think this all boils down to the old "journey vs. destination" schism. There are those for whom the destination is the pinnacle and they consider that to be a "win" even though it will be short lived when either they get toppled or new content is added. Then there are those for whom the journey is the thing.
Or, yet another way to look at it; battle vs. war
The "war" in an MMO is unwinnable (at least one hopes it will be or game stagnates) but there are battle victories.
yes... i take your point there is a win in terms of a specific battle but in the bigger picture (to paraphrase fallout 4)
war... war never ends...
If it does, bye bye players. This is really the main reason I like MMOs. Good or bad, they evolve. There is no "win"/game-over.
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter ).
There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.
Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.
wrong ..... for several reasons that have been stated clearly on the other thread on this topic.
why is there another thread?
Because this one has MATH!
I don't actually think that Crown Research Scrolls are Pay to Win. But nobody talking about them seemed to know the math involves or the cost in time vs crowns. So I decided to find out and post the results for discussion,
Over $2000 to instantly become a 9 trait crafter seems a stiff price to me.1 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Let's say an infused crafted staff is BiS, and we have two players who want this staff, but follow different routes to get it: player A buys a research scroll from the CS, learns the trait, and crafts the staff. Player B asks a guildie/friend to make the staff, or pays a crafter for the service. They both get the staff they want, when they want it, so they both 'win' at the end. There is no logical P2W argument here. P2W would be if a BiS staff was available to aquire in the CS, for example being able to buy a perfected asylum staff with crowns.4 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter ).
There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.
Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.
wrong ..... for several reasons that have been stated clearly on the other thread on this topic.
why is there another thread?
Because this one has MATH!
I don't actually think that Crown Research Scrolls are Pay to Win. But nobody talking about them seemed to know the math involves or the cost in time vs crowns. So I decided to find out and post the results for discussion,
Over $2000 to instantly become a 9 trait crafter seems a stiff price to me.
meh.... the cost is a red herring. could i pay it (not that i need to) yes. would i pay it? no, well hmm... i may have bought a few.
it's the same as all the other fluff in the crown store. could i buy it? yes. will i buy it? no. because it would add nothing to my enjoyment of the game.
and that's the win..... enjoying the game for what it is.Edited by jedtb16_ESO on March 8, 2018 8:21PM1 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter ).
There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.
Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.
I could get a free full set of crafted gear from a friend as soon as I make a new character so that point is invalid and the amount of gold someone makes doesn't give them an advantage either. Also when people sell the gear they craft they usually just charge for mats or have the person provide the mats which cannot be bought in the crown store. These points you are trying to make are nonsense.
Gear has no affect on endgame performance for a "new" toon (low level).
I have NEVER seen anyone give out a full legendary set of nirnhoned weapons or legendary gear to anyone in game.
Regardless, its still pay to win if a person used crowns to fast track their abilities in game. Fast tracking to get better gear is the very definition of pay to win.
Is nirnhoned the best trait again? I know the prices for nirncrux have apparently dropped a bit.
I don't know about who you know in game, but I've given away sets of gear to new players, improved to blue. Free. Not worth improving to purple or gold if you're going to outlevel it in a few hours. I have given friends/guildies gold weapons. Since I'm not running bots or farming non-stop I don't have the gold tempers to make full sets of armor gold. I have made cp160 gear improved to purple for a few people without asking for mats or tempers though.
If one player "fast tracks" to better gear that is pay to win, you say. So getting better gear free from a friend/guildie is also pay to win? Who paid? The new player getting the free gear, or the crafter who made it for free?2 -
FLuFFyxMuFFiN✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter ).
There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.
Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.
I could get a free full set of crafted gear from a friend as soon as I make a new character so that point is invalid and the amount of gold someone makes doesn't give them an advantage either. Also when people sell the gear they craft they usually just charge for mats or have the person provide the mats which cannot be bought in the crown store. These points you are trying to make are nonsense.
Gear has no affect on endgame performance for a "new" toon (low level).
I have NEVER seen anyone give out a full legendary set of nirnhoned weapons or legendary gear to anyone in game.
Regardless, its still pay to win if a person used crowns to fast track their abilities in game. Fast tracking to get better gear is the very definition of pay to win.
You've seemed to have missed the point. My point is that anyone can obtain any crafted gear set with any trait at any level regardless if they have any traits researched. It doesn't matter if I know all traits or not I could still get nirnhoned gear by simply having someone else craft it for me. I'll say it once more so you can understand it, EVERYONE. IN. THE. GAME. REGARDLESS. OF. LEVEL. HAS. EQUAL. ACCESS. TO. ANY. CRAFTED. SET. Just because you can't craft it yourself doesn't mean you cant obtain it at all. So once again it is not P2W it is purely convenience to the player.8 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is most definately pay to win. You pay to instantly complete research. There is no doubt, this IS pay to win. What can be debatable though is the DEGREE of pay to win we are talking about here. As an example: a game that has p2w elements that allow you to get get boosted stats for either pve or pvp is probably the worst p2w offenses there is. Compare that to the issue at hand with the instant completion of research, I would say this is in the category of lesser p2w offenses. But still p2w nonetheless.3 -
EvilAutoTech✭✭✭✭✭
✭300k crowns per character. Assuming one person decides to do it on the current 15 characters slots on just a server that would be: 300k crowns x 15 char = 4,500k crowns. Dividing that number with 21k crown packs give us 215 x 21k crown packs. Finally, each of these 21k crown packs cost $150 each, so... 215 x $150 = $4,515 for 15 characters per server.
That's insane.
Actually, it's even more insane than you posted. Your last equation is incorrect.
215 X $150 is $32,250
2 -
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jcaceresw✭✭✭✭✭EvilAutoTech wrote: »300k crowns per character. Assuming one person decides to do it on the current 15 characters slots on just a server that would be: 300k crowns x 15 char = 4,500k crowns. Dividing that number with 21k crown packs give us 215 x 21k crown packs. Finally, each of these 21k crown packs cost $150 each, so... 215 x $150 = $4,515 for 15 characters per server.
That's insane.
Actually, it's even more insane than you posted. Your last equation is incorrect.
215 X $150 is $32,250
Oh yes, my bad.0 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »I guess some people still don't understand the meaning of "P2W" (or "TLDR" for that matter ).
There's nothing about researching traits that gives you an advantage over another player. Buying scrolls that get it done quicker is purely a Quality of Life issue - as such it's something that can be debated from various angles, but P2W isn't one of them.
Incorrect. Pay to win is fast tracking to get gear faster than the typical player. Unlocking traits allows for faster gold to be made in game to use for gear. You can only unlock traits faster with crowns. IF there was a gold option, my argument would be void, but there are not gold options for unlocking traits, just a LOT of time which is done intentionally to push the "pay to win" customer towards the crown store.
I could get a free full set of crafted gear from a friend as soon as I make a new character so that point is invalid and the amount of gold someone makes doesn't give them an advantage either. Also when people sell the gear they craft they usually just charge for mats or have the person provide the mats which cannot be bought in the crown store. These points you are trying to make are nonsense.
Gear has no affect on endgame performance for a "new" toon (low level).
I have NEVER seen anyone give out a full legendary set of nirnhoned weapons or legendary gear to anyone in game.
Regardless, its still pay to win if a person used crowns to fast track their abilities in game. Fast tracking to get better gear is the very definition of pay to win.
You've seemed to have missed the point. My point is that anyone can obtain any crafted gear set with any trait at any level regardless if they have any traits researched. It doesn't matter if I know all traits or not I could still get nirnhoned gear by simply having someone else craft it for me. I'll say it once more so you can understand it, EVERYONE. IN. THE. GAME. REGARDLESS. OF. LEVEL. HAS. EQUAL. ACCESS. TO. ANY. CRAFTED. SET. Just because you can't craft it yourself doesn't mean you cant obtain it at all. So once again it is not P2W it is purely convenience to the player.
And that's all that is needed to say. Thread winner.They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd2 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭P2W is when the best gear is only available from the Cash Shop for $. (Either via "Buy Infinity+1 Sword for $50" or via "To survive you must upgrade your gear to +15, every step above +8 has a 1% chance of success & 25% chance to destroy the gear unless you buy Upgrade Boosters & Insurance for $$$!")
P2W is when your open-world/FFA/loot-the-bodies PvP game sells direct PvP advantage in the Cash Shop. (automatic healing potions that keep your HP topped up; "insurance" so that people who kill you can't take your stuff; etc)
...I think the most gratuitous thing I ever saw was "if you spend $1000 this month, you can ask a GM for a personal favor!" Gotta love Aeria f2p games.
P2W is almost exclusively in PvP games (especially the most extreme ones - free-for-all, open world, region control gets you bonuses, etc), since there's actual direct competition & "winning" between players.
Speeding up makework that doesn't really get you anything in the long run? Eh. Not feeling it.3
This discussion has been closed.