Something needs to be done about this "fake tank" crap

SydneyGrey · March 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Why isn't the other player viewed as toxic for purposefully selecting an activity expecting a carry? This attitude you have here is strange to me. I am the one who's most valuable resource, time, Is being robbed. Being annoyed at that does not make mean "toxicity".

Because they aren't necessarily expecting a carry. They might think their DPS is better than it actually is, or they might be a noob who just doesn't know any better. When you queue for a dungeon there are only three options to choose for your role, and if a person knows they aren't a tank or healer, then they have to select DPS by default or else just not do the dungeon. That's why I'd never call them a "fake" DPS, just a "bad" DPS.

I can see this issue only getting worse with the new skill adviser, because that program is now basically encouraging noobs to queue for 4-man dungeons at ridiculously low levels. I did a PUG a few days ago (an easy dungeon on normal) where I was the only 720 there, and everyone else was ... I'm not kidding ... under level 40. Not CP40. Just 40. LOL. That's what I get for PUGging. I finished the dungeon with them, but it was painful.

Jeremy · March 2018

Androconium wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.

These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.

I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.

Can't you just compensate for them? You sound like you think you're a good player. Or maybe, when you say this:

I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run

- maybe you're actually a tank queuing as a fake healer?

If you're a good tank and there aren't enough, why not just play as a tank in the first place?

As for reporting "bad" players? Seriously? I'm a crap DPS. I don't use buffs, because LAG means they never apply in time (for me) anyway. I should still be allowed to queue as DPS and not have the other three players complain about me. In all seriousness, if you're that concerned about player 'quality' - then why don't you assess what your team is before you start - by asking them - and then strategise around that.

On that basis I'd argue to remove the kick option and force all you super-heroes into dealing with the players that you have.
That means providing them with some help and/or training. Otherwise, you should drop out and queue again; or do your dungeon play from pre-formed teams of players whose quality has been assured.

I have a tank build. I have a healer build. When I queue up as healer I am wanting to play as a healer (imagine that). I'm not wanting to compensate a fake tank by having to switch into my tank build.

It's not about me thinking I'm a good player. It's about expecting players not to lie about their role for faster queue times and forcing others to change into the role they are suppose to be.

You are also putting words in my mouth. I never said report bad players. What I said is perhaps they should add a new function where players can report those who abuse the system by intentionally queuing up as tanks or healers when they aren't. That's not the same as reporting bad players. That's reporting selfish people who are abusing the dungeon finder at the expense of others.

Glurin · March 2018

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Why isn't the other player viewed as toxic for purposefully selecting an activity expecting a carry? This attitude you have here is strange to me. I am the one who's most valuable resource, time, Is being robbed. Being annoyed at that does not make mean "toxicity".

Because they aren't necessarily expecting a carry. They might think their DPS is better than it actually is, or they might be a noob who just doesn't know any better. When you queue for a dungeon there are only three options to choose for your role, and if a person knows they aren't a tank or healer, then they have to select DPS by default or else just not do the dungeon. That's why I'd never call them a "fake" DPS, just a "bad" DPS.

I can see this issue only getting worse with the new skill adviser, because that program is now basically encouraging noobs to queue for 4-man dungeons at ridiculously low levels. I did a PUG a few days ago (an easy dungeon on normal) where I was the only 720 there, and everyone else was ... I'm not kidding ... under level 40. Not CP40. Just 40. LOL. That's what I get for PUGging. I finished the dungeon with them, but it was painful.

Uh, you do realize that 40 is about right for easy, normal dungeons, right? I mean, that's exactly who they were meant for in the first place. Not maxed out 650CP+ characters.

Jeremy · March 2018

oli.j.reillyb16_ESO wrote: »

Want a real tank? Don’t use the finder - it’s really that simple.
.

No. If you aren't a tank then don't queue as a tank.

It's really that simple.

SydneyGrey · March 2018

Glurin wrote: »

Uh, you do realize that 40 is about right for easy, normal dungeons, right? I mean, that's exactly who they were meant for in the first place. Not maxed out 650CP+ characters.

They were less than 40.
I'm a healer, and I've noticed a huge difference between healing people who are over CP200 and people who are less than level 40. Trust me when I say the under-40 people are WAAAAYYYY squishier. That's why I said it was painful. They were all so squishy that their health would go down a whole lot faster than it should have. These were noobs without champion points.

Glurin · March 2018

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Uh, you do realize that 40 is about right for easy, normal dungeons, right? I mean, that's exactly who they were meant for in the first place. Not maxed out 650CP+ characters.

They were less than 40.
I'm a healer, and I've noticed a huge difference between healing people who are over CP200 and people who are less than level 40. Trust me when I say the under-40 people are WAAAAYYYY squishier. That's why I said it was painful. They were all so squishy that their health would go down a whole lot faster than it should have. These were noobs without champion points.

What's your point? Normal dungeons are tuned for pre-CP levels and I'd be surprised if there wasn't a difference in healing someone under level 40 as opposed to someone who's above 200CP. That's kind of the reason to level up to 200CP or more.

I'm sorry, but you sound like you're actually offended that someone less than 200CP would have the audacity queue for a dungeon that was built for character level 12.

SydneyGrey · March 2018

Glurin wrote: »

What's your point? Normal dungeons are tuned for pre-CP levels and I'd be surprised if there wasn't a difference in healing someone under level 40 as opposed to someone who's above 200CP. That's kind of the reason to level up to 200CP or more.
I'm sorry, but you sound like you're actually offended that someone less than 200CP would have the audacity queue for a dungeon that was built for character level 12.

You sound horrifically offended by everything I've said. LOL. Not sure why, unless you like to do dungeons at level 24 and are taking it personally.
I wasn't "offended." You're just misinterpreting me. I was just groaning that I had bad luck in that particular draw. Usually when I do normals, I get put in with one or two low levels, and at least one who isn't low level. It was just a first for me to get grouped with three who were all that low level ... one 30-something, and two 20-somethings. People who are 20-something don't even have all their passives unlocked yet. If I'd been on my DPS, I would have been carrying the group. I'm OK with that. If I wasn't ok with it, I wouldn't be doing PUGs. The only reason I was even there was I was working to level Undaunted on my alt.

Anyway, this thread is about fake tanks, and this is derailing the original topic.

Grimm13 · March 2018

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

What's your point? Normal dungeons are tuned for pre-CP levels and I'd be surprised if there wasn't a difference in healing someone under level 40 as opposed to someone who's above 200CP. That's kind of the reason to level up to 200CP or more.
I'm sorry, but you sound like you're actually offended that someone less than 200CP would have the audacity queue for a dungeon that was built for character level 12.

You sound horrifically offended by everything I've said. LOL. Not sure why, unless you like to do dungeons at level 24 and are taking it personally.
I wasn't "offended." You're just misinterpreting me. I was just groaning that I had bad luck in that particular draw. Usually when I do normals, I get put in with one or two low levels, and at least one who isn't low level. It was just a first for me to get grouped with three who were all that low level ... one 30-something, and two 20-somethings. People who are 20-something don't even have all their passives unlocked yet. If I'd been on my DPS, I would have been carrying the group. I'm OK with that. If I wasn't ok with it, I wouldn't be doing PUGs. The only reason I was even there was I was working to level Undaunted on my alt.

Anyway, this thread is about fake tanks, and this is derailing the original topic.

Actually I think it does go along with the original topic. How many of these "fake tanks" are simply lower level PC's queuing in the proper dungeon level as each has a minimum level requirement. You are not the first that I have heard people complaining about low level PC's in dungeons. Even seen several people say that level requirements are needed when there already are, just not to the levels that they want to see.

Know that if you end up in a dungeon with low level pc's, you are the odd one out. ZOS does not lock you out of the content as they want higher level people to be in there to show them the ropes. Teach them the mechanics. One Tamriel offers a great amount of play latitude but i t comes with some responsibility for players get along regardless of levels.

Tommy_The_Gun · March 2018

From OP's description it sounds just like a bad, inexperienced tanks... How do you know they were suppose to be DPS ? They use bow or destro staff as tank ? In all my playthrough using dungeon group finder I learned not to expect anything at all from randoms. That include tanks not slotting taunts, DPS in heavy armour using one handed & shield or even healers in 7 pcs medium armour spamming vigor...
You would think that it happens only in normal dungeons right ? But in veteran dungeon finder it actually gets worse...

commdt · March 2018

Jeremy wrote: »

I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.

I do random normal a lot recently and I have seen everything. A tank with a good HP pool, with a sword and shield, maybe with a taunt, but he doesnt even try to taunt anything, just stands there light attacking boss, and if the boss eventually aggroes at him he starts to run from it. Should I report him? Another one does actually have a taunt, but he just taunts boss once, than stand in permablock doing nothing until the boss is untaunted at which time he already dont have any stamina left so he starts to run in rounds after the boss light attacking it. Should I report him? Another one taunts properly but doesnt try to heal at all, while standing in all possible AOEs and i dont know if hes naked, but sometimes its just impossible to heal him, so hes dead 90% of the time (while the other party lives no problem). Should i report him?
I do random normal on my low-level twinks a lot and I havent seen a proper tank yet. Im a tank myself, doing vet trials so this "tanks" insult me. Actually I would love to report them. The thing is they are all useless, so I now often pick a tank role on my low level twinks not to see them and to have at least extra DD, because you dont actually need a tank or a healer in normal.

Concerning vets I agree that some clueless DD should not queue as a tank. But when I queue to non-DLC vets with my actual tank I spec to DD with a taunt ability slotted to have extra DPS and we do it no problem. Would you report me in this case?

That said there is no need in any reporting system for this, there are already means to deal with it:
1. If you see a DD queued as a tank and either he is that bad or the content requires an actual tank, just vote to kick him. If he is with his friends which wouldnt kick him, leave the party yourself and let them suffer.
2. Queue as a tank and be safe

Maura_Neysa · March 2018

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

From OP's description it sounds just like a bad, inexperienced tanks... How do you know they were suppose to be DPS ? They use bow or destro staff as tank ? In all my playthrough using dungeon group finder I learned not to expect anything at all from randoms. That include tanks not slotting taunts, DPS in heavy armour using one handed & shield or even healers in 7 pcs medium armour spamming vigor...
You would think that it happens only in normal dungeons right ? But in veteran dungeon finder it actually gets worse...

Trust me there are a whole lot of inxepranced tanks out there. Every person who says tanking is the boring role is one of them. If you think that, you don't know EDIT ABOUT tanking. I PuG a lot because I find the challenge fun. That is what I am teaching most often, how to behave like a tank. Because Heavy armor and a Taunt does not make you a tank.
I can tank on my 7 light healer, my x2 Bow Stamden even without a taunt because I understand how aggro works. I know which of my skills provide what utility is needed and see when that utility needs to be applied. Your Caltrops better beat the Liquid Lighting to the ground if you want the mobs to stay tightly packed. You should cast it every 3 to 5 seconds to keep up the 70% snare up, instead of its full 12 seconds.

You can't have a pass fail check for a tank because what makes or breaks a tank is knowledge coupled with skills.

Androconium · March 2018

Thannazzar wrote: »

Vote kick and ignore. Problem solved.

Take kick away.
Make you work harder.

Your problem now.

Androconium · March 2018

Zalicius wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

So you just want to drawn out a 10minute run into a 30minute run because???? What you're being petty? Normal bosses pose no threat, zero, nada, zilch. I go into normal dungeons solo as a 17k health stamblade and do just fine tanking, dpsing, and self healing.

What would possess someone to think they have any chance of dying from a normal boss when there's now four other people to kill things for you? That's honestly impressive levels of bad.

Players that are new to the game, inexperienced players, players that are new to mmos in general. You can't honestly assume everyone is good at the game and know what they are doing. ESO does get new players now and then. At least I hope they do. Also, for its genre, ESO has a bit of a learning curve.

you left out people that dont read or write english

D0PAMINE · March 2018

I never give any gear I get to someone who refuses to attempt to perform their role unless its agreed on at the beginning that we're all choosing to have no tank or healer or all DPS.

When you run with someone who uses Chains and Talons perfecly you can storm through vet and vet dlc dungeons quite fast.

Mayrael · March 2018

I meet fake tax... um... tanks and healers less often than fake DDs which is far worse. There is a lot of dungs that can be done just with good dps but without it most of dungs are a way through torment. I found that its easier to clear most of dungs when I do dungs on my DD with random healers and tanks than when I did them on my tank or healer with random DDs (maybe I am terrible tank and healer?

).

clocksstoppe · March 2018

If you have 12k dps you are a fake dps buddy. Why would people invest in a real tank when their dpsers arent even trying?

Araxyte · March 2018

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

Made me laugh

JungleBoot · March 2018

So, let me see if I understand this correctly. The OP is basically stating that nobody should que for activities that don't meet his / her standards for dungeons? that about it? When do the "new" players get to get good gear or have an opportunity for the "B.I.S." gear if you won't let them run with you? A "new" tank may not have the gear you want them to have. At least they are trying. When did you forget this game is about having fun and not just chasing your achievements or having perfect groups and perfect runs?

Jhalin · March 2018

JungleBoot wrote: »

So, let me see if I understand this correctly. The OP is basically stating that nobody should que for activities that don't meet his / her standards for dungeons? that about it? When do the "new" players get to get good gear or have an opportunity for the "B.I.S." gear if you won't let them run with you? A "new" tank may not have the gear you want them to have. At least they are trying. When did you forget this game is about having fun and not just chasing your achievements or having perfect groups and perfect runs?

While the complaint is still stupid, that's not what the OP takes issue with. They're mad at DPS tagging as tank in order to circumvent the near eternal dps queues, but usually these players expect to be queued with competent player who can understand that since tanks aren't required for the vast majority of normal dungeons, another dps would be objectively more useful to have than a fully spec'd tank in most cases, even in DLC dungeons.

Sure if they don't even slot a taunt it's annoying when some other players loses their mind and runs the boss around like an idiot, but again, competent players won't do that if boss changes aggro, and generally the player running the boss around is far more annoying.

Jhalin · March 2018

edit: i goofed

Kevin_of_Devinshire · March 2018

I'm a tank because I say I'm a tank. There!

Armatesz · March 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

They're not fake, just bad

I agree though, good tanks are hard to come by, and I hate fake tanks.

And tanks are an absolute must for Scalecaller

No it is still fake, and bad as well. Bad player mannerism and unsporting behavior.

knaveofengland · March 2018

last night had a few guides want to do a few normall dungeon runs so we used fake tanks/ dd to do the runs it was ok not much problems .

have seen quite a few problems . now i think certain dungeons should be restricted to a set level for the harder ones i am cp 195 , belive i should only go up to the medium ones , have got pledge bloodroot and probally can be done have tried never finished it group gave up .

so think these ones should be for higher level players even though i am healer wont try for the harder ones now i just do the vets easier ones and white tower for the armour sets .

jeremy has a valid point and eso hopefully will look into this i am a healer as well cp195 i try hard getting better at understanding the dungeons way they work .

but think might be idea to have set levels so it make it a better experience all round , been helping fellow new players in dungeons , would also say the guilds should help trian players and builds for them .

since i am in guild that has website dottz gaming its easier for us to point them in right direction , i would like to think all guilds are helping with this issue.

wish you all well

red_emu · March 2018

I hate trash mobs that queue as bosses!

Aurielle · March 2018

disintegr8 wrote: »

I don't think fake DPS is a 'thing', it is usually a bad DPS - he is trying to do damage but not doing it well. Whereas a fake tank is there to do damage, has no intention of maintaining aggro and has insufficient health and resistance to take the hits and survive.

Fake damage dealers are absolutely a thing (on PS4, at least). I've lost track of the number of times I've queued in to vet dungeons with guys who are lazily spamming light bow attacks while carrying on a conversation with a family member in the room. They are there for the vet pledge carry and have no intention of actually dealing damage. I first ask them to mute their mics (because I REALLY don't need to hear their girlfriends complaining about Becky at work), then ask them to do a little more than LA spam. If they don't listen, I vote to kick. If vote to kick fails, I inform the group that I'm not here to carry light attack spammers and leave.

The entitlement of people in this game who queue for roles they have no intention of performing is unreal.

BlanketFort · March 2018

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

My recommendation: Roll up a tank.

Honestly, answers like these are annoying and don’t really solve anything. I already have a Tank main, what am I supposed to do when I’m on my DD or healer, going through the daily pledges, hmm? Do people who give answers like yours just expect everyone who is complaining about fake tanks, to simply forever play a tank themselves and nothing else?

Silver_Strider · March 2018

I've honestly given up entirely with this ever being resolved.

If the tank/healer/DPS is not doing their job, I initiate vote kick and if it fails, I drop group. It sucks but if people refuse to do their jobs properly and are not listening to advise, it's not fair to the group to carry them thru.

Twenty0zTsunami · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Twenty0zTsunami wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.

These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.

I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.

if it's a normal dungeon you have no reason to complain. unless everyone is on literally their first lvl 10. I fake tanked my way to lvl 50 on multiple characters. The only issue was on my ranger I couldnt really taunt, but even if we lost a player, the fights always ended in success.

I absolutely can complain in a normal dungeon when a fake tank leaves my healer with boos aggro on top of having to heal the group, buff the group, and dps the boss. My healer can tank on top of all that but shouldn't have to. And That's not accounting for whether a player is really squishy or a genuinely new player who needs a little more babysitting from the healer.

The run will be successful, sure, but the fake tank makes a lot more work for me. Which is the whole point, the fake tank gets a quick, easy run for them by throwing the work of tanking onto other people.

Dammit, Jim! I'm a healer, not a tank!

Not always the cast. I was doing it from lvl 20-50 on my warden, with new blue quality gear every 15 lvls or so, stuff just melted, plus I could heal myself and others so it was a win/win. Never once had a complaint in 30 levels.

Beodamacsa · March 2018

redspecter23 wrote: »

If you don't want to group with absolute tools that don't perform their roles properly or even at all, why are you pugging? Find a few guilds. Get social and find some friends that play at similar times and run it with people you know. Don't expect the group finder to work magic. Look at the pool of players it has to work with.

Problem with this is not everyone lives in the same time zone. I myself am on at very quiet times as I live in New Zealand and I always have to pug in group finder myself.

VaranisArano · March 2018

Jhalin wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Twenty0zTsunami wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.

These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.

I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.

if it's a normal dungeon you have no reason to complain. unless everyone is on literally their first lvl 10. I fake tanked my way to lvl 50 on multiple characters. The only issue was on my ranger I couldnt really taunt, but even if we lost a player, the fights always ended in success.

I absolutely can complain in a normal dungeon when a fake tank leaves my healer with boos aggro on top of having to heal the group, buff the group, and dps the boss. My healer can tank on top of all that but shouldn't have to. And That's not accounting for whether a player is really squishy or a genuinely new player who needs a little more babysitting from the healer.

The run will be successful, sure, but the fake tank makes a lot more work for me. Which is the whole point, the fake tank gets a quick, easy run for them by throwing the work of tanking onto other people.

Dammit, Jim! I'm a healer, not a tank!

There's no "work" in tanking a normal non-dlc boss. Literally all you have to do as the person with aggro is stand still. Players will always be mediocre until they learn that they don't have to fear enemies in PvE. I regularly do vAA as healer, and I taunt the final boss every time so the group doesn't end up chain lightning'd to death. Usually I also end up pulling aggro on an axe or two when my Mending procs on them while they're only soft-taunted.

My first instinct is not to run away from them. A good player doesn't panic, and doesn't flee, they just do as they're supposed to and lead it back to the tank for them to taunt again, or in this case, pull the boss calmly back into the AoE. Once they learn that mobs are not something to panic over, they can actually start improving themselves as players.

I don't think you get my point.

You keep describing how people should deal with having a fake tank in group. You get aggro, you stand still, accept that normal bosses are nothing to be afraid of, and burn the boss. Which, yeah, I agree, thats the most efficient way to handle a fake tank situation.

My point is why should I have to? Why should my healer or my DD have to tank when that's NOT MY JOB? Why should the take tank expect other people to tank for them because they can't be bothered to do their job?