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Something needs to be done about this "fake tank" crap
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Stinkyremy✭✭✭✭✭Apache_Kid wrote: »Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...
Touche old bean0 -
Stinkyremy✭✭✭✭✭I am a tank main and often hear gg tank, or great tanking and thought people were just being nice, but after trying to level a healers undaunted and it taking over a week in activity finder, I know that good tanks, let alone real ones are scarce.
I had one tank try to taunt only the big netch in darkshade 2, had no clue about the mechanics.1 -
Im_MegaDeath✭✭✭I Q in as all 3 rolls becuase its easy duneons and if I dont the wait time can be up to hours
and even if I dont my group could be all lvl 10s and *** because there isnt any type of filter on the group toolDC - Im MegaDeath (Stam DK) PvP0 -
Grimm13✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »I have been leveling a DK tank since update 17. At the point where I need to Undaunted exp to get a skill to help with tanking. It becomes a catch 22 if I can not go do the dungeons to get where you need to be. I have been aware of the vitriol spewing about this topic but still want to advance the character. So I been queuing as a fake DPS instead.
Are you talking about Inner Fire? Why not just use Pierce Armor until you have that unlocked?
Why the heck is that not in the skills advisor for a tank role? Thank you, missed that.
Another point not even mentioned in this thread, unless I missed it. Players need to understand the mechanics of aggro in a dungeon. DPS and Healers can pull aggro with high levels of their skill, especially when they have CP behind it that a tank might not have behind them. There are also some random events programed in to make a boss aggro a different target. It is important to learn to time your big ticket items, you drop several in a row and get aggro don't blame a tank. Back off the insensitive and let the tank regain control , know that many are trying to re-balance sustain since the update.Edited by Grimm13 on March 1, 2018 12:50AM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »I have been leveling a DK tank since update 17. At the point where I need to Undaunted exp to get a skill to help with tanking. It becomes a catch 22 if I can not go do the dungeons to get where you need to be. I have been aware of the vitriol spewing about this topic but still want to advance the character. So I been queuing as a fake DPS instead.
Are you talking about Inner Fire? Why not just use Pierce Armor until you have that unlocked?
Why the heck is that not in the skills advisor for a tank role? Thank you, missed that.
It might be different based on which class you have? But yeah, I would definitely grab a one-hand and shield and use Puncture as a main taunt until you have Inner Fire for a ranged taunt. Pierce Armor has a great debuff and is super handy for a melee taunt.
If you need a ranged taunt until you can get Inner Fire, you could also back bar a Ice Staff and with the Tri-Focus passive, Ice staff Heavy attacks are a taunt. However, I've never used this so I don't know how handy it is to use. Some tanks seem to do really well with it and others really don't.0 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Role isn't the true issue here. I don't think you should look at it as a problem with fake tanks, but rather bad players. Some might be generally good players who think that because they can solo a boss, that all they need is a taunt to tank it for a group. They are ignorant of the expectations of positioning and may even attempt to kite.
The irony is that they get frustrated at everyone else for lacking their kiting know-how and individual survivability.
I say that because pretty much any magicka dps build with some slight modifications can tank dungeons well in the hands of a good player. I prefer this kind of tank in dungeons because bosses melt. DPS tanks are definitely viable, it's just that most are bad at tanking without realizing it.
Maybe someone can make a tutorial video called "DPS Tanks: what you're doing wrong."Edited by zyk on March 1, 2018 12:50AM0 -
Grimm13✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »I have been leveling a DK tank since update 17. At the point where I need to Undaunted exp to get a skill to help with tanking. It becomes a catch 22 if I can not go do the dungeons to get where you need to be. I have been aware of the vitriol spewing about this topic but still want to advance the character. So I been queuing as a fake DPS instead.
Are you talking about Inner Fire? Why not just use Pierce Armor until you have that unlocked?
Why the heck is that not in the skills advisor for a tank role? Thank you, missed that.
It might be different based on which class you have? But yeah, I would definitely grab a one-hand and shield and use Puncture as a main taunt until you have Inner Fire for a ranged taunt. Pierce Armor has a great debuff and is super handy for a melee taunt.
If you need a ranged taunt until you can get Inner Fire, you could also back bar a Ice Staff and with the Tri-Focus passive, Ice staff Heavy attacks are a taunt. However, I've never used this so I don't know how handy it is to use. Some tanks seem to do really well with it and others really don't.
Build is DK Stoneskin Dragon with 1H and Shield. Yet another thank taht needs to be pointed out about the skill advisor.Edited by Grimm13 on March 1, 2018 12:52AM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Role isn't the true issue here. I don't think you should look at it as a problem with fake tanks, but rather bad players. Some might be generally good players who think that because they can solo a boss, that all they need is a taunt to tank it for a group. They are ignorant of the expectations of positioning and may even attempt to kite.
The irony is that they get frustrated at everyone else for lacking their kiting know-how and individual survivability.
I say that because pretty much any magicka dps build with some slight modifications can tank dungeons well in the hands of a good player. I prefer this kind of tank in dungeons because bosses melt. DPS tanks are definitely viable, it's just that most are bad at tanking without realizing it.
Maybe someone can make a tutorial video called "DPS Tanks: what you're doing wrong."
Generally, the only thing the ones I meet are doing wrong is refusing to slot a taunt...0 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Actually , I won't talk much to fake tank unless the PUG content is a bit tough ... and he didn't slot Pierce Armor / Inner Rage ...1 -
Colecovision✭✭✭✭✭
✭I queue as a tank with my sorc in PvP gear every night, haven't died yet in about 2 months. Slot undaunted taunt, carry the garbage dps and heal myself since the level 27 warden healer in my group hasn't quite figured it out yet. I keep the heat off of the other group members with my taunt and even heal them sometimes. Random normals are so easy... That being said I'm sorry to those of you who have a dps queuing as tank and ACTING like a DPS. That makes things harder and is frustrating, but until the dungeon finder is fixed I will continue doing what I'm doing and and being successful. I look forward to the angry responses you will post that I won't read.
So you go in as a tank and actually doing the job. That makes me more than mad...
"We HATES it!......ForEVER!"1 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
So many CP players in normal dungeons, using the 400K xp to level, need gear or quest on alt.The problem is the difficulty or lack thereof. A motivated mediocre player can solo normal dungeons, a good player can solo vet dungeons. Nobody takes the need for a tank seriously so this ish goes on. I've played mmo's where you absolutely needed a tank to complete a dungeon and this was never an issue because people knew the dungeon wasn't getting done if they pulled this crap.
DLC is worst as many do vet-vet-normal for dailies.
So if getting carried is not an issue. this teaches bad behavior.
For some reason I have always ended on second last boss in Scalecaller Peak normal then I pug it and yes its mechanic took us some wipes to figure out the first time.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Baconlad✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why the hell are you expecting to complete get instances with a pug? I would expect normal purging. But don't q for get pugs. That's just a *** idea0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've said it before, I'll say it again. Make people do a simple test before they are allowed to queue as support rolls.
Make DPS show they can kill a target in a reasonable timelimit. Boom. Problem solved.
Edited by Doctordarkspawn on March 1, 2018 2:20AM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »I've said it before, I'll say it again. Make people do a simple test before they are allowed to queue as support rolls.
That'll help with anyone who doesn't know how to tank. It won't help the people who are refusing to tank despite queuing as the tank.2 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »I've said it before, I'll say it again. Make people do a simple test before they are allowed to queue as support rolls.
That'll help with anyone who doesn't know how to tank. It won't help the people who are refusing to tank despite queuing as the tank.
Yes, it'll lock them out.
Unless they actually wanna put in the work at which point it's all that easier to spot people.
But I'd say autokicking these people if they dont have taunt slotted is fine by me if you wanna fix that problem.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »I've said it before, I'll say it again. Make people do a simple test before they are allowed to queue as support rolls.
That'll help with anyone who doesn't know how to tank. It won't help the people who are refusing to tank despite queuing as the tank.
Yes, it'll lock them out.
Unless they actually wanna put in the work at which point it's all that easier to spot people.
But I'd say autokicking these people if they dont have taunt slotted is fine by me if you wanna fix that problem.
Sorry, I should have clarified. My assumption is that anyone who makes it a habit of queuing as a tank despite not slotting a taunt and having no intention of tanking is more than capable of doing the training as a tank and then going right back to their old habits.1 -
disintegr8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The only way to stop fake tanks is to make it so that all normal dungeons actually need a tank.
Currently the non DLC normal dungeons can be completed by even mildly competent DPS without a tank, so you end up with DPS queuing as tanks to save on wait times. They then get caught out if they get placed in a DLC dungeon which actually needs a tank.
I don't think fake DPS is a 'thing', it is usually a bad DPS - he is trying to do damage but not doing it well. Whereas a fake tank is there to do damage, has no intention of maintaining aggro and has insufficient health and resistance to take the hits and survive.Australian on PS4 NA server.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.0 -
Twenty0zTsunami✭✭✭✭DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.
These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.
I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.
if it's a normal dungeon you have no reason to complain. unless everyone is on literally their first lvl 10. I fake tanked my way to lvl 50 on multiple characters. The only issue was on my ranger I couldnt really taunt, but even if we lost a player, the fights always ended in success.0 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭disintegr8 wrote: »The only way to stop fake tanks is to make it so that all normal dungeons actually need a tank.
Currently the non DLC normal dungeons can be completed by even mildly competent DPS without a tank, so you end up with DPS queuing as tanks to save on wait times. They then get caught out if they get placed in a DLC dungeon which actually needs a tank.
I don't think fake DPS is a 'thing', it is usually a bad DPS - he is trying to do damage but not doing it well. Whereas a fake tank is there to do damage, has no intention of maintaining aggro and has insufficient health and resistance to take the hits and survive.
The distinction doesn't really matter in practice. You can still be a great 'fake' tank (i.e. massive DPS + solo survivability + taunt). Or you can be a bad fake tank (low dps, no taunt, kiting constantly etc).0 -
DoctorESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.
These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.
I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.
Maybe they thought "tank" is a damage dealer? A tank does big damage in real life and changes the outcome of a fight. Innocent misunderstanding?3 -
zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭
I agreeApache_Kid wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...
I don't see an incentive to lie about being a DPS. So chances are these are just bad players and not those who are purposely and selfishly abusing the system to shorten wait times and take up a spot that should go to a real tank.
But even assuming they are - fake damage-dealers are more easily dealt with and can usually be replaced in short order. Tanks are rare (which is why players like to pretend they are tanks for faster queues). So these players can really screw over someone's run and waste other people's time.
Yes that's exactly what people do who queue for DPS but are only doing a few K actual dps. This is wasting the time of other players.
Unless it's a vet DLC dungeon I get happy when I see there is a DPS who queued in as a tank because that means my run will go faster! Having both a tank and a healer for most dungeons, even on vet, is overkill. One of them is fine and if all DPS can self-heal 4dps is actually ideal. It takes the least amount of time.
Yeah some less experienced groups will need all roles for all content but we already know not everyone is equal.
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disintegr8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
If you are actually taunting, holding aggro and keeping yourself alive, you are tanking and therefore are not 'fake'. If you hold aggro but quickly run out of resources and keep dying, or the healer needs to spend too much time keeping you alive, you can be ether a fake tank or just a bad tank.disintegr8 wrote: »The only way to stop fake tanks is to make it so that all normal dungeons actually need a tank.
Currently the non DLC normal dungeons can be completed by even mildly competent DPS without a tank, so you end up with DPS queuing as tanks to save on wait times. They then get caught out if they get placed in a DLC dungeon which actually needs a tank.
I don't think fake DPS is a 'thing', it is usually a bad DPS - he is trying to do damage but not doing it well. Whereas a fake tank is there to do damage, has no intention of maintaining aggro and has insufficient health and resistance to take the hits and survive.
The distinction doesn't really matter in practice. You can still be a great 'fake' tank (i.e. massive DPS + solo survivability + taunt). Or you can be a bad fake tank (low dps, no taunt, kiting constantly etc).
A fake tank is not taunting at all and/or has to keep running away from the boss. A fake DPS would be someone who queues as a DPS and doesn't try and deal damage, maybe they heal.
Australian on PS4 NA server.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.1 -
dazee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is a direct consequence of having these roles be rigidly defined with strict requirements for each in the first place. You get terrible "tanks" in FFXIV too, where every class plays exactly the same, every black mage has the same rotation and every warrior has the same as every other warrior.
even the gear is pretty samey for each class, and class locked. and this problem exists there too.
Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The solution is OP learns to taunt, then kicks the fake tank if he/she is not tanking.
Most fake tanks I have seen taunt and as long as they can taunt the boss then it is fine. Mobs in most of the dungeons are a joke and can be AoEed down easily.
In the end, most fake tanks, ones who have a taunt, do a service by shortening queue times and most dungeons do not require tankish character. Further, Zos cannot put a restriction on the GF since any of us can perform multiple roles without issue on any of our characters. I can do all roles on a couple without issue and Zos really has no way to restrict me other than making sure I have one point into a taunt.
What is needed is more of those that complain about fake tanks start tanking. Many of the tanks do not enter GF because of low dps and questionably experienced healers. That is why you have fake tanks.Edited by idk on March 1, 2018 3:42AM2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Twenty0zTsunami wrote: »DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.
These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.
I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.
if it's a normal dungeon you have no reason to complain. unless everyone is on literally their first lvl 10. I fake tanked my way to lvl 50 on multiple characters. The only issue was on my ranger I couldnt really taunt, but even if we lost a player, the fights always ended in success.
I absolutely can complain in a normal dungeon when a fake tank leaves my healer with boos aggro on top of having to heal the group, buff the group, and dps the boss. My healer can tank on top of all that but shouldn't have to. And That's not accounting for whether a player is really squishy or a genuinely new player who needs a little more babysitting from the healer.
The run will be successful, sure, but the fake tank makes a lot more work for me. Which is the whole point, the fake tank gets a quick, easy run for them by throwing the work of tanking onto other people.
Dammit, Jim! I'm a healer, not a tank!2 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Twenty0zTsunami wrote: »DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.
These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.
I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.
if it's a normal dungeon you have no reason to complain. unless everyone is on literally their first lvl 10. I fake tanked my way to lvl 50 on multiple characters. The only issue was on my ranger I couldnt really taunt, but even if we lost a player, the fights always ended in success.
I absolutely can complain in a normal dungeon when a fake tank leaves my healer with boos aggro on top of having to heal the group, buff the group, and dps the boss. My healer can tank on top of all that but shouldn't have to. And That's not accounting for whether a player is really squishy or a genuinely new player who needs a little more babysitting from the healer.
The run will be successful, sure, but the fake tank makes a lot more work for me. Which is the whole point, the fake tank gets a quick, easy run for them by throwing the work of tanking onto other people.
Dammit, Jim! I'm a healer, not a tank!
There's no "work" in tanking a normal non-dlc boss. Literally all you have to do as the person with aggro is stand still. Players will always be mediocre until they learn that they don't have to fear enemies in PvE. I regularly do vAA as healer, and I taunt the final boss every time so the group doesn't end up chain lightning'd to death. Usually I also end up pulling aggro on an axe or two when my Mending procs on them while they're only soft-taunted.
My first instinct is not to run away from them. A good player doesn't panic, and doesn't flee, they just do as they're supposed to and lead it back to the tank for them to taunt again, or in this case, pull the boss calmly back into the AoE. Once they learn that mobs are not something to panic over, they can actually start improving themselves as players.0 -
Maura_Neysa✭✭✭✭✭I really don't get why everyone cries so much. Getting bad or fake what ever role just means you get to get better
On my tank with bad dps and heals? So what I solo mob pull vSanctum mantikiora mob because that's what it takes to end game tank.
On my Healer with no tank and bad DPS? Sounds exactly like Asylum with everyones all over the map from Storm and the boss being immune half the time.
On my DPS with no tank and no healer? That's Maelstrom.
If you're good enough that Vet of each of those is a walk, then what are you running 4 man for anyway?
Edited by Maura_Neysa on March 1, 2018 7:35AMMaiden Maura - Xbox NA
Warden Ice Tank (By far my favorite) -RIP #NerfmireStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer(solo tanked), Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe,Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's CoadjutorDragon Knight Healer (Since Homestead)
MajorShehai Shatterer, Mageslayer,Warden 2x Bow DPSStormproof, Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Ophidian Overlord, Assistant Alienist, Boethiah's Scythe, Maw of Lorkhaj Conqueror, Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor, Sunspire Saint,Others
PvP StamDen, Warden Healer, MagDen, Stamplar, StamSorc, DK Failed Attempt, NB Failed Attempt
Playing BiS isn't impressive, playing unique at BiS lvl, THAT's impressive.0 -
Anhedonie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What about fake damage dealers?
I'm tired of light attacking bowtards.
If only ZOS made content harder, making bosses hit for 30k and have enrage timer of 10-15 minutes.Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.0
