Something needs to be done about this "fake tank" crap

central_scrutinizer

I actually love pugging for situations like this. I put a lot of work into my toons getting skill points and unlocking skills and running ma/trials/da ect for the sets their inventories are full of, they can all turn into a tank/dps with a few keypresses and all the magic toons can be healer/tank/dps. With varying degrees of efficiency, obviously. But They can all do whatever role I choose for them almost anywhere outside of veteran trial board runs.
And I always run with at least one of my friends, most of whom have equally/more powerful characters and the knowledge to use them.
Which is to say that I have the normal resources of somebody who has been playing for awhile.

But I don't like being chumped. When this kind of stuff happens, I'll ask the person what's up. If they're honest, np I probably won't care. If they're new, even better, again no problem, I'll pull double duty AND teach them if they want to learn.
If they don't answer, or are rude, we kick them.

If they are actually trying and are just struggling/ignorant, I will support them any way I can. If somebody's trying something odd, I will absolutely go along for the ride, even if I know there's no way it will work (And I might be surprised and learn stuff).

This is probably quite a problem for new players though, they might not have the resources/knowledge to adapt, and they might be learning bad habits too, which is probably how many "fake tanks" come to be. Unfortunately normal non-dlc dungeons are not a very good teacher, especially since maxed players can join and trivialize content for them. Honestly it would probably be best for a new player to join a guild so they can run with other newbs instead of being dragged along by some bored farmer who zergs normals just for speed.

Silver_Strider

Either content needs to be difficult enough to warrant a Tank, which people will complain about or they add an easy to bypass system that checks if you have a Tank/Healer ability slotted for group content.

Either way, it won't really solve the issue without complaints.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Ahh, the battle cry of the fake tank has appeared! It isn’t my fault the dungeon failed. If the dps were good we would have been fine!!

Sure sure. You are the one not doing the role you selected. Usually because you don’t want to wait, obviously because you are more important then everyone else. So of course you should go first. But it is a dps problem.

VonNelson

Best ‘fake’ tank experience today - allocated a group for random daily. At last boss one of the dps leaves group. New dps assigned then vote to kick keeps appearing (did not pass). The ‘tank’ then messages the new guy to say sorry mate you have to leave because we need a tank not a dps -

Jhalin

If you're not doing vet then you don't get to complain about fake tanks. If someone catches aggro for a second then proceeed to run around like a headless chicken, that's the problem. Four dps has been the best way to do normals for ages now. One or two self heals is more than enough for them, and a good player will not start fleeing from the boss and pulling him out of AoEs when a tank loses taunt, because normal level bosses pose no threat.

Glurin

VonNelson wrote: »

Best ‘fake’ tank experience today - allocated a group for random daily. At last boss one of the dps leaves group. New dps assigned then vote to kick keeps appearing (did not pass). The ‘tank’ then messages the new guy to say sorry mate you have to leave because we need a tank not a dps -

I find that both sad and hilarious.

VaranisArano

Jhalin wrote: »

If you're not doing vet then you don't get to complain about fake tanks. If someone catches aggro for a second then proceeed to run around like a headless chicken, that's the problem. Four dps has been the best way to do normals for ages now. One or two self heals is more than enough for them, and a good player will not start fleeing from the boss and pulling him out of AoEs when a tank loses taunt, because normal level bosses pose no threat.

I've had a fake tank yell at a DD who got boss aggro and then proceeded to drag the boss all over the arena because he was squishy and didn't realize I could have kept him healed if he'd just stood still. The fake tank admitted he wasn't taunting at the end of the dungeon.

I was like "Are you kidding me? You yelled at that guy for not doing your job?"

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Jhalin wrote: »

If you're not doing vet then you don't get to complain about fake tanks. If someone catches aggro for a second then proceeed to run around like a headless chicken, that's the problem. Four dps has been the best way to do normals for ages now. One or two self heals is more than enough for them, and a good player will not start fleeing from the boss and pulling him out of AoEs when a tank loses taunt, because normal level bosses pose no threat.

If you queue as a tank I don’t really care if it is normal, if you don’t get aggro, I am most certainly going to run in a circle if as a dps I always end up with aggro. Honestly because it is funny as hell to watch people try to dps while I run in circles with the boss.

Sure maybe it would go faster if I didn’t. Sure maybe I’m just being a weenie. But if you want to skip to the front of the line, go ahead and slap a taunt on your bar and have at it. Im sure your awesome dps won’t be crippled by having to taunt from time to time. It is a normal after all. It is the least you can do for skipping to the front.

VaranisArano

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

If you're not doing vet then you don't get to complain about fake tanks. If someone catches aggro for a second then proceeed to run around like a headless chicken, that's the problem. Four dps has been the best way to do normals for ages now. One or two self heals is more than enough for them, and a good player will not start fleeing from the boss and pulling him out of AoEs when a tank loses taunt, because normal level bosses pose no threat.

If you queue as a tank I don’t really care if it is normal, if you don’t get aggro, I am most certainly going to run in a circle if as a dps I always end up with aggro. Honestly because it is funny as hell to watch people try to dps while I run in circles with the boss.

Sure maybe it would go faster if I didn’t. Sure maybe I’m just being a weenie. But if you want to skip to the front of the line, go ahead and slap a taunt on your bar and have at it. Im sure your awesome dps won’t be crippled by having to taunt from time to time. It is a normal after all. It is the least you can do for skipping to the front.

Hey, if you have to tank for them, why should they get a decent DPS parse?

Jhalin

VaranisArano wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

If you're not doing vet then you don't get to complain about fake tanks. If someone catches aggro for a second then proceeed to run around like a headless chicken, that's the problem. Four dps has been the best way to do normals for ages now. One or two self heals is more than enough for them, and a good player will not start fleeing from the boss and pulling him out of AoEs when a tank loses taunt, because normal level bosses pose no threat.

If you queue as a tank I don’t really care if it is normal, if you don’t get aggro, I am most certainly going to run in a circle if as a dps I always end up with aggro. Honestly because it is funny as hell to watch people try to dps while I run in circles with the boss.

Sure maybe it would go faster if I didn’t. Sure maybe I’m just being a weenie. But if you want to skip to the front of the line, go ahead and slap a taunt on your bar and have at it. Im sure your awesome dps won’t be crippled by having to taunt from time to time. It is a normal after all. It is the least you can do for skipping to the front.

Hey, if you have to tank for them, why should they get a decent DPS parse?

So you just want to drawn out a 10minute run into a 30minute run because???? What you're being petty? Normal bosses pose no threat, zero, nada, zilch. I go into normal dungeons solo as a 17k health stamblade and do just fine tanking, dpsing, and self healing.

What would possess someone to think they have any chance of dying from a normal boss when there's now four other people to kill things for you? That's honestly impressive levels of bad.

VaranisArano

Jhalin wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

If you're not doing vet then you don't get to complain about fake tanks. If someone catches aggro for a second then proceeed to run around like a headless chicken, that's the problem. Four dps has been the best way to do normals for ages now. One or two self heals is more than enough for them, and a good player will not start fleeing from the boss and pulling him out of AoEs when a tank loses taunt, because normal level bosses pose no threat.

If you queue as a tank I don’t really care if it is normal, if you don’t get aggro, I am most certainly going to run in a circle if as a dps I always end up with aggro. Honestly because it is funny as hell to watch people try to dps while I run in circles with the boss.

Sure maybe it would go faster if I didn’t. Sure maybe I’m just being a weenie. But if you want to skip to the front of the line, go ahead and slap a taunt on your bar and have at it. Im sure your awesome dps won’t be crippled by having to taunt from time to time. It is a normal after all. It is the least you can do for skipping to the front.

Hey, if you have to tank for them, why should they get a decent DPS parse?

So you just want to drawn out a 10minute run into a 30minute run because???? What you're being petty? Normal bosses pose no threat, zero, nada, zilch. I go into normal dungeons solo as a 17k health stamblade and do just fine tanking, dpsing, and self healing.

What would possess someone to think they have any chance of dying from a normal boss when there's now four other people to kill things for you? That's honestly impressive levels of bad.

So, for the record, I normally don't do this. My healer is more than capable of standing still while tanking the boss, healing, buffing, and doing my own DPS.

I have, however, seen this happen. I've seen it happen to a DPS who got boss aggro and who would not stand still even though I could heal him through it. I've also seen it happen to a healer when I was a DPS - they weren't prepared to stand and tank on top of doing their healing and DPS - so they had to move around and kite the boss.

It didn't take a half hour. It took, maybe, a couple extra minutes. But they shouldn't have had to deal with something they weren't built to handle because they queued up with a reasonable expectation of getting an actual tank.

Is my suggestion essentially "The fake tank didn't respect my time and role so I'm going to make it harder for him to DPS - which he could fix real quick by actually doing what he signed up to do"?

Yeah. I generally don't do it, because I try not be be a jerk in turn. But I definitely understand anyone who HAS to kite the boss and I certainly understand anyone who decides a little payback is in order for the fake tank. After all, if the fake tank doesn't enjoy it, he could fix it quick by actually slotting a taunt and doing the role he queued up for.

Zalicius

Jhalin wrote: »

So you just want to drawn out a 10minute run into a 30minute run because???? What you're being petty? Normal bosses pose no threat, zero, nada, zilch. I go into normal dungeons solo as a 17k health stamblade and do just fine tanking, dpsing, and self healing.

What would possess someone to think they have any chance of dying from a normal boss when there's now four other people to kill things for you? That's honestly impressive levels of bad.

Players that are new to the game, inexperienced players, players that are new to mmos in general. You can't honestly assume everyone is good at the game and know what they are doing. ESO does get new players now and then. At least I hope they do. Also, for its genre, ESO has a bit of a learning curve.

Datolite

I was about to say, hey that never happens to me, then I remembered I was a tank.

dodgehopper_ESO

My recommendation: Roll up a tank.

VaranisArano

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

My recommendation: Roll up a tank.

I've got a tank. Ebon Armory and everything.

Strangely enough, that doesn't help me when I'm on my healer and I get a fake tank. I wonder why.

LadyAstrum

Fake tanks wouldn't have gotten away with it in Lotro's heyday, but then classes were clearly defined in that game, and thus their roles.

NyassaV

I can fill any role on the same character but then to play a DPS. I carry Spell power cure, Amberplasm, Fortified brass, Alteration mastery, and Julianos on my person at all times. Just becuase they have 17k healthy and do 30k+ doesn't mean they can't suddenly have 30k health and do 8k DPS by spamming a taunt

VaranisArano

Hollery wrote: »

I can fill any role on the same character but then to play a DPS. I carry Spell power cure, Amberplasm, Fortified brass, Alteration mastery, and Julianos on my person at all times. Just becuase they have 17k healthy and do 30k+ doesn't mean they can't suddenly have 30k health and do 8k DPS by spamming a taunt

Yeah, I've got no problems with people who queue as multiple roles and can actually fill those roles with a little gear/skill swap.

I do have a problem with the people who queue as a tank with zero intentions of taunting or otherwise performing the role of a tank.

Soris

Jeremy wrote: »

DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.

These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.

I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.

@Jeremy What class are you playing? If playing templar or warden you can pretty much tank and heal at the same time. Queue for tank and ask your healer to do damage. Or do LFM3DD in zone chat. The latter is almost instant at forming groups.

CompM4s

In rare cases where the "fake tank" is a solid dps and the dungeon doesnt require a tank, I dont mind at all. Otherwise just kick em.

josiahva

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The veteran dungeon finder really needs to check players before putting them in groups.

Anyone queued as a tank should have at minimum a frost staff or shield equipped and a minimum of 25k health.

Anyone queued as a healer should have at minimum a restoration staff equipped.

I have a tank/DPS hybrid that I can effectively tank at 24k health while dealing 20k DPS. Its true this hybrid isnt up to most of the vet DLC dungeons and certainly not for trials...but I don't take it there either(in a pinch with a gear change it can also heal as well as it can tank)

The point is that X health requirements are not cut and dry depending on the build. For that matter I have seen people effectively tank with just a 2 hander and inner fire...so equipment isn't that cut and dry either, there are plenty of builds that dont fit in your box.

jerj6925

I will do one of 2 things depending one the instance.

1) I will start a vote to kick the DPS who Que as a tank. if the vote does not go through I simply wont heal at all then until the kick goes through.

2) Ill just do the healer tank thing to get through it.

I used to leave the group but then I got sick of getting hit with the penalty so for the most part I just do option 1) and wont heal anyone until the kick goes through.

NyassaV

jerj6925 wrote: »

I will do one of 2 things depending one the instance.

1) I will start a vote to kick the DPS who Que as a tank. if the vote does not go through I simply wont heal at all then until the kick goes through.

2) Ill just do the healer tank thing to get through it.

I used to leave the group but then I got sick of getting hit with the penalty so for the most part I just do option 1) and wont heal anyone until the kick goes through.

This ^

Sky_WK

I queue as a tank with my sorc in PvP gear every night, haven't died yet in about 2 months. Slot undaunted taunt, carry the garbage dps and heal myself since the level 27 warden healer in my group hasn't quite figured it out yet. I keep the heat off of the other group members with my taunt and even heal them sometimes. Random normals are so easy... That being said I'm sorry to those of you who have a dps queuing as tank and ACTING like a DPS. That makes things harder and is frustrating, but until the dungeon finder is fixed I will continue doing what I'm doing and and being successful. I look forward to the angry responses you will post that I won't read.

VaranisArano

Sky_WK wrote: »

I queue as a tank with my sorc in PvP gear every night, haven't died yet in about 2 months. Slot undaunted taunt, carry the garbage dps and heal myself since the level 27 warden healer in my group hasn't quite figured it out yet. I keep the heat off of the other group members with my taunt and even heal them sometimes. Random normals are so easy... That being said I'm sorry to those of you who have a dps queuing as tank and ACTING like a DPS. That makes things harder and is frustrating, but until the dungeon finder is fixed I will continue doing what I'm doing and and being successful. I look forward to the angry responses you will post that I won't read.

Why would we be angry? If you queue as a tank, have a taunt, and actually succeed as a tank, then this post isn't really about you. You are doing the job of a tank, that's great!

The "fake tank" referred to in the OP is someone who is a DPS that does not have a taunt and has no intention of trying to be a tank or hold aggro.

Dubhliam

Jeremy wrote: »

DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.

These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.

I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.

Solution?
Revert all the nerfs tanks got over the years.

Thannazzar

Vote kick and ignore. Problem solved.

Jaimeh

There is another caveat why queuing for the wrong role can be problematic; a DPS queuing as a tank might be confident they can burn through the mobs/bosses, but then the person queuing as the healer could also be a DPS. That leaves the group with no actual healer and tank, and if the fourth player happens to be a low level player, then they have to deal with aggro and no healing, which is unfair for them. With friends people can run whatever group configurations they wish, but for PUGs, it'd be nice if they were considerate to others, and at least perform the bare minimum necessities of their assigned roles.

Grimm13

I have been leveling a DK tank since update 17. At the point where I need to Undaunted exp to get a skill to help with tanking. It becomes a catch 22 if I can not go do the dungeons to get where you need to be. I have been aware of the vitriol spewing about this topic but still want to advance the character. So I been queuing as a fake DPS instead.

VaranisArano

Grimm13 wrote: »

I have been leveling a DK tank since update 17. At the point where I need to Undaunted exp to get a skill to help with tanking. It becomes a catch 22 if I can not go do the dungeons to get where you need to be. I have been aware of the vitriol spewing about this topic but still want to advance the character. So I been queuing as a fake DPS instead.

Are you talking about Inner Fire? Why not just use Pierce Armor until you have that unlocked?