Something needs to be done about this "fake tank" crap

Jeremy

DPS classes queuing up as tanks to shorten their wait times has gotten out of hand on this game. 5 out of the last 6 dungeon queues I joined had players who were tanks in name-only.

These players frequently don't taunt, have low HP pools and defenses and sometimes don't even bother initiating fights (they just sit there waiting for other group members to attack). One of them had 12k health and was getting killed in one hit by almost everything. It's gotten so bad I'm just about ready to quit queuing up as my healer as I usually just end up having to change into my tank anyway during the run.

I'm not sure what the best solution here would be. Some basic requirements before you can choose a specified role? A new feature added to the report function that specifically allows players to report players who abuse the system by lying about their role? I don't know. But something needs to be done to discourage this.

Apache_Kid

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

Waffennacht

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

They're not fake, just bad

I agree though, good tanks are hard to come by, and I hate fake tanks.

And tanks are an absolute must for Scalecaller

Apache_Kid

Waffennacht wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

They're not fake, just bad

I agree though, good tanks are hard to come by, and I hate fake tanks.

And tanks are an absolute must for Scalecaller

So you're saying they're failing to adequately pefrom the role they queued for?

Sounds alot like the tanks OP is posting about. I see no difference.

Katahdin

Also fake healers. Did 2 runs last night with DPS qued as healer. Was annoying.

dennissomb16_ESO

Queing roles is a pain in many MMOs. There unfortunately will always be those players who que as tank or healer even though they are truly just a dps toon as a way to bypass long que times. It gets worse of course because so many players will come to the forums and claim that they run everything with just dps toons (there is a big difference between well geared experienced groups who can go all dps and puggers who are undergeared, low CP and un-experienced)

It would be nice if the new level advisor tool could somehow be used to determine if a player is geared/set up for a tank/healer role (of course this would cause its own forum mass protest topic)

mikemacon

Fake tanks and fake healers. The bane of my PUG existence.

If you're good enough DPS, carrying a low-DPS "DPS" isn't an issue.

VaranisArano

Nothing is going to get done about fake tanks - i.e. DPS queuing as tanks for the faster queue with no taunt and no desire to taunt. (No, your super high DPS is almost never sufficient to hold boss aggro).

What can be done:
ZOS hopefully improved the quality of tanking in general with their Skill Advisor having tanking roles.

And then there's the things you can do as a player:
Kick the fake tank - don't expect people to be happy
Don't heal the fake tank - don't expect people to be happy
Complain in group chat about the fake tank - don't expect the fake tank to listen to you

When I'm a DPS with a fake tank, I suck it up and DPS as best I can with the boss running every which way. I main a tank, so I can at least stay put and semi-tank on my DPS most of the time.

When I'm on my healer, I just LOVE healing, buffing, DPSing, and tanking the boss, NOT! I'm very tempted to just run around like a chicken with my head cut off even though I'm perfectly capable of standing still, because if I have to tank the boss for a fake tank, why should the fake tank get to enjoy a good DPS parse?

Ch4mpTW

The new dungeons are definitely exposing the fake tanks for what they are, so I have been told. Everything from not being able to withstand damage from bosses and boss mechanics, to being unable to even properly position things. My feelings go out to those you who must endure this wave of non-experienced tanks, and fake tanks alike.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

They're not fake, just bad

I agree though, good tanks are hard to come by, and I hate fake tanks.

And tanks are an absolute must for Scalecaller

So you're saying they're failing to adequately pefrom the role they queued for?

Sounds alot like the tanks OP is posting about. I see no difference.

So you are saying in your world you see no difference in someone trying to do something and coming up short, and someone not trying at all?

Ok I guess.

Mindcr0w

The problem is the difficulty or lack thereof. A motivated mediocre player can solo normal dungeons, a good player can solo vet dungeons. Nobody takes the need for a tank seriously so this ish goes on. I've played mmo's where you absolutely needed a tank to complete a dungeon and this was never an issue because people knew the dungeon wasn't getting done if they pulled this crap.

Jeremy

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

I don't see an incentive to lie about being a DPS. So chances are these are just bad players and not those who are purposely and selfishly abusing the system to shorten wait times and take up a spot that should go to a real tank.

But even assuming they are - fake damage-dealers are more easily dealt with and can usually be replaced in short order. Tanks are rare (which is why players like to pretend they are tanks for faster queues). So these players can really screw over someone's run and waste other people's time.

kringled_1

It's even more fun healing when the fake tank can't dps either. And the dps is super squishy.

KiraTsukasa

How would you determine this? By the number of X type skills they have points in? If I have 3 points in Tank skills, and 2 in DPS skills, I'd automatically be queued as a Tank, even though I'd prefer to be DPS. And you can't force queues based on class because that forces classes to build one way and only that way, destroying one of the attractive features of ESO that the game doesn't bottleneck you into one play type.

It's quite easy to say "fix this!" but it's quite another to come up with an actual fix for it.

VaranisArano

So this is what happens in a dungeon with a fake tank (a DPS with no interest in taunting).

First boss fight.

The boss aggros one person for about 7 seconds. Then the boss aggros on someone else, running across the arena.

The boss either sticks on one person (a DPS or Healer who probably wasn't expecting to be tanking and may or may not be prepared to stand still and let everyone else DPS the boss) or the Boss runs around from person to person and definitely not staying in everyone's ground-based AOES.

Rinse repeat.

If the boss aggros on someone who is prepared to stand still and let the boss whale on them so everyone else can DPS, this goes great! (Though if that person is my healer, you'd better believe I know you aren't tanking, and I'm mad as a wet hen about having to tank for you.)

If the boss aggros on someone who isn't prepared to stand still and effectively tank, or the boss is running around out the ground-based AOEs, that boss fight just got A LOT more annoying for everyone involved.

All it takes is for one person to not be prepared to tank the boss or for one person to need extra attention from the healer and that fake tank turned a smooth run into a hassle.

And yes, that's even true on normal dungeons. I've met a lot of fake tanks on normal dungeons, and again, all it takes is for one person to not be ready to be self-sufficient, or too squishy, and what should be an easy-peasy smooth run turns into a hassle.

Apache_Kid

mikemacon wrote: »

Fake tanks and fake healers. The bane of my PUG existence.

If you're good enough DPS, carrying a low-DPS "DPS" isn't an issue.

It's not about being able to complete the content or not. It's about another player actively choosing to waste the time of 3 other people by queueing as a DPS for the vet daily and spamming a gap closer as your main form of damage.

Jeremy

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

How would you determine this? By the number of X type skills they have points in? If I have 3 points in Tank skills, and 2 in DPS skills, I'd automatically be queued as a Tank, even though I'd prefer to be DPS. And you can't force queues based on class because that forces classes to build one way and only that way, destroying one of the attractive features of ESO that the game doesn't bottleneck you into one play type.

It's quite easy to say "fix this!" but it's quite another to come up with an actual fix for it.

It's not an easy thing to fix. But any attempt to at least discourage this practice would be welcome.

If having a set of basic requirements (such as a taunt and a certain health threshold) doesn't work - then maybe a new report option specifically designed for players who abuse the dungeon finder. That way Zenimax could investigate the situation to determine if the player was attempting to game the system or not. It's likely just having that option there at all would serve as a deterrent even if it was rarely used.

Apache_Kid

Jeremy wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

I don't see an incentive to lie about being a DPS. So chances are these are just bad players and not those who are purposely and selfishly abusing the system to shorten wait times and take up a spot that should go to a real tank.

But even assuming they are - fake damage-dealers are more easily dealt with and can usually be replaced in short order. Tanks are rare (which is why players like to pretend they are tanks for faster queues). So these players can really screw over someone's run and waste other people's time.

Yes that's exactly what people do who queue for DPS but are only doing a few K actual dps. This is wasting the time of other players.

Unless it's a vet DLC dungeon I get happy when I see there is a DPS who queued in as a tank because that means my run will go faster! Having both a tank and a healer for most dungeons, even on vet, is overkill. One of them is fine and if all DPS can self-heal 4dps is actually ideal. It takes the least amount of time.

Yeah some less experienced groups will need all roles for all content but we already know not everyone is equal.

Colecovision

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

You think being bad at a video game is the same as cutting in line and telling everyone else to f-off? No wonder there is so much toxicity in this game.

Apache_Kid

Colecovision wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

You think being bad at a video game is the same as cutting in line and telling everyone else to f-off? No wonder there is so much toxicity in this game.

I was only half-serious. There is really no solution to role woes that we have in the group finder. This issue has been argued to death forever and zos hasn't hinted at changes by now so they aren't coming.

That being said how am I being toxic? For being annoyed that a player queued for content they cannont adequately DPS for and wasting the time of myself and two other players?

Why isn't the other player viewed as toxic for purposefully selecting an activity expecting a carry? This attitude you have here is strange to me. I am the one who's most valuable resource, time, Is being robbed. Being annoyed at that does not make mean "toxicity".

Jeremy

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

I don't see an incentive to lie about being a DPS. So chances are these are just bad players and not those who are purposely and selfishly abusing the system to shorten wait times and take up a spot that should go to a real tank.

But even assuming they are - fake damage-dealers are more easily dealt with and can usually be replaced in short order. Tanks are rare (which is why players like to pretend they are tanks for faster queues). So these players can really screw over someone's run and waste other people's time.

Yes that's exactly what people do who queue for DPS but are only doing a few K actual dps. This is wasting the time of other players.

Unless it's a vet DLC dungeon I get happy when I see there is a DPS who queued in as a tank because that means my run will go faster! Having both a tank and a healer for most dungeons, even on vet, is overkill. One of them is fine and if all DPS can self-heal 4dps is actually ideal. It takes the least amount of time.

Yeah some less experienced groups will need all roles for all content but we already know not everyone is equal.

But your ignoring my point. Fake DPS are easier to replace. Tanks are more difficult so waiting to get a real one after you kick the fake one can take awhile. Often times it can end the whole run. So fake tanks are more of a problem. I ended up having to change my healer into a tank to save several runs for example.

Players who want to create alternative groups comprised of more DPS for faster runs are welcome to. But they should do that among themselves and not lie about being a tank when they aren't.

There is also a big difference in lying about your role to cut in line of others and then under-performing.

WhitePawPrints

I cannot stand the arrogance of fake tyanks in vet dungeons. I don’t appreciate having my DPS cut by up to 60% because I have to use a ton of resources to stay alive on trash mobs. And on bosses my DPS is further cut because I end up getting the aggro nearly every time. I didn’t queue as a tank because I’m not one, so don’t cut in line and have me pull all the aggro because your own DPS sucks!

You fake arrogant *** think your helping us get in a dungeon faster? No, you’re wasting everyone’s time. I don’t just stand around having emote wars while waiting. I’m busy when I’m not in a dungeon.

VaranisArano

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

You think being bad at a video game is the same as cutting in line and telling everyone else to f-off? No wonder there is so much toxicity in this game.

I was only half-serious. There is really no solution to role woes that we have in the group finder. This issue has been argued to death forever and zos hasn't hinted at changes by now so they aren't coming.

That being said how am I being toxic? For being annoyed that a player queued for content they cannont adequately DPS for and wasting the time of myself and two other players?

Why isn't the other player viewed as toxic for purposefully selecting an activity expecting a carry? This attitude you have here is strange to me. I am the one who's most valuable resource, time, Is being robbed. Being annoyed at that does not make mean "toxicity".

I have no problem with you being annoyed with people that queued and are unable or unwilling to fill their role as a DPS.

I do object to being told that my annoyance with people that are queued for but unwilling to do the basic job of a tank should take a backseat to your annoyance, as you did when you said:

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

If they are both problems, they can be solved together.

I suspect, however that there's a difference between:
I'm a a bad DPS because I don't know how to be a good DPS
I'm a a bad DPS because I don't care to learn to be a good DPS
I'm a bad tank because I know know how to be a good tank
I'm a bad tank because I have no interest in being a good tank

ZOS and players can work with someone how doesn't know. even if the learning process is annoying to others, we all went through it ourselves.

We can't work with people who don't want to to their job and who just want a carry. Bad DPS and Fake Tanks alike just want a carry from the other DPS and the healer who has to suffer because of them.

Jeremy

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

I cannot stand the arrogance of fake tyanks in vet dungeons. I don’t appreciate having my DPS cut by up to 60% because I have to use a ton of resources to stay alive on trash mobs. And on bosses my DPS is further cut because I end up getting the aggro nearly every time. I didn’t queue as a tank because I’m not one, so don’t cut in line and have me pull all the aggro because your own DPS sucks!

You fake arrogant *** think your helping us get in a dungeon faster? No, you’re wasting everyone’s time. I don’t just stand around having emote wars while waiting. I’m busy when I’m not in a dungeon.

Well said.

Apache_Kid

Jeremy wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

I don't see an incentive to lie about being a DPS. So chances are these are just bad players and not those who are purposely and selfishly abusing the system to shorten wait times and take up a spot that should go to a real tank.

But even assuming they are - fake damage-dealers are more easily dealt with and can usually be replaced in short order. Tanks are rare (which is why players like to pretend they are tanks for faster queues). So these players can really screw over someone's run and waste other people's time.

Yes that's exactly what people do who queue for DPS but are only doing a few K actual dps. This is wasting the time of other players.

Unless it's a vet DLC dungeon I get happy when I see there is a DPS who queued in as a tank because that means my run will go faster! Having both a tank and a healer for most dungeons, even on vet, is overkill. One of them is fine and if all DPS can self-heal 4dps is actually ideal. It takes the least amount of time.

Yeah some less experienced groups will need all roles for all content but we already know not everyone is equal.

But your ignoring my point. Fake DPS are easier to replace. Tanks are more difficult so waiting to get a real one after you kick the fake one can take awhile. Often times it can end the whole run. So fake tanks are more of a problem. I ended up having to change my healer into a tank to save several runs for example.

Players who want to create alternative groups comprised of more DPS for faster runs are welcome to. But they should do that among themselves and not lie about being a tank when they aren't.

I'm not ignoring your point. Here's the problem with it. In order to replace that poopy DPS player i need 2 other votes. Now if even one of the other two players for some God forsaken reason is perfectly OK with the dungeon run taking twice as long as need be because they have alot more free-time than I do then I'm SOL. Either take the penalty or be tortured watching someone do 5kdps for a whole dungeon.

Also when you need a replacement you are placed near the front of the queue so it never takes my groups long at all to find a replacement tank when one needs kicking when they queued in to vet Bloodroot.

I agree that people shouldn't queue for tank as DPS because it is cutting the line. I only do it with friends or when I'm doing a normal that is just too easy. And even then I slot a taunt and hold aggro. However I'm happy when others do it for me because it means 3 DPS which means faster run.

With that being said, it would be great if everyone who queued for a dungeon could adequately perform their role but as long as the DPS queue is so long players are going to try and cut it. It's human nature.

redspecter23

If you don't want to group with absolute tools that don't perform their roles properly or even at all, why are you pugging? Find a few guilds. Get social and find some friends that play at similar times and run it with people you know. Don't expect the group finder to work magic. Look at the pool of players it has to work with.

Jeremy

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Right after they do something about the fake DPS I keep seem to be getting as group-mates via the activity finder...

I don't see an incentive to lie about being a DPS. So chances are these are just bad players and not those who are purposely and selfishly abusing the system to shorten wait times and take up a spot that should go to a real tank.

But even assuming they are - fake damage-dealers are more easily dealt with and can usually be replaced in short order. Tanks are rare (which is why players like to pretend they are tanks for faster queues). So these players can really screw over someone's run and waste other people's time.

Yes that's exactly what people do who queue for DPS but are only doing a few K actual dps. This is wasting the time of other players.

Unless it's a vet DLC dungeon I get happy when I see there is a DPS who queued in as a tank because that means my run will go faster! Having both a tank and a healer for most dungeons, even on vet, is overkill. One of them is fine and if all DPS can self-heal 4dps is actually ideal. It takes the least amount of time.

Yeah some less experienced groups will need all roles for all content but we already know not everyone is equal.

But your ignoring my point. Fake DPS are easier to replace. Tanks are more difficult so waiting to get a real one after you kick the fake one can take awhile. Often times it can end the whole run. So fake tanks are more of a problem. I ended up having to change my healer into a tank to save several runs for example.

Players who want to create alternative groups comprised of more DPS for faster runs are welcome to. But they should do that among themselves and not lie about being a tank when they aren't.

I'm not ignoring your point. Here's the problem with it. In order to replace that poopy DPS player i need 2 other votes. Now if even one of the other two players for some God forsaken reason is perfectly OK with the dungeon run taking twice as long as need be because they have alot more free-time than I do then I'm SOL. Either take the penalty or be tortured watching someone do 5kdps for a whole dungeon.

Also when you need a replacement you are placed near the front of the queue so it never takes my groups long at all to find a replacement tank when one needs kicking when they queued in to vet Bloodroot.

I agree that people shouldn't queue for tank as DPS because it is cutting the line. I only do it with friends or when I'm doing a normal that is just too easy. And even then I slot a taunt and hold aggro. However I'm happy when others do it for me because it means 3 DPS which means faster run.

With that being said, it would be great if everyone who queued for a dungeon could adequately perform their role but as long as the DPS queue is so long players are going to try and cut it. It's human nature.

Well I don't see much here to disagree with - only to say that I haven't had your luck when it comes to being able to quickly replace fake tanks with real ones. Usually what happens is we sit around waiting forever after we kick the fake tank - which is probably why so many people just put up with it because kicking them often doesn't do much good. It usually just ends up with us 3-manning the rest of the dungeon or me changing into a tank to pick up the slack (at which point I would have just preferred to queued as a tank to begin with).

I'm glad we agree that DPS shouldn't be queuing as a tank.

Jeremy

redspecter23 wrote: »

If you don't want to group with absolute tools that don't perform their roles properly or even at all, why are you pugging? Find a few guilds. Get social and find some friends that play at similar times and run it with people you know. Don't expect the group finder to work magic. Look at the pool of players it has to work with.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that people who queue as tanks to actually be tanks.

Inexperienced or even bad players I don't mind dealing with. I expect that when I pug and that's fine. But having to deal with players who purposely lie about their role for quicker queue times is a different matter.

VaranisArano

redspecter23 wrote: »

If you don't want to group with absolute tools that don't perform their roles properly or even at all, why are you pugging? Find a few guilds. Get social and find some friends that play at similar times and run it with people you know. Don't expect the group finder to work magic. Look at the pool of players it has to work with.

Yet Groupfinder would undoubtedly work better if everyone using it queued for roles they were prepared to fill.

When I use Groupfinder, I'm agreeing to play with random players in the tank, healer, and DD role. I accept that there is no guarantee that they will be good at those roles.

What I don't agree to, however, is to run without a tank and instead get a DD who can't be bothered to slot a taunt. If I wanted to do a 3DD + healer run, I wouldn't be PUGing it, no? If i want a 3DD+healer run, I'd make a pre-made group for it. Not a PUG.

Dojohoda

Speaking of the dungeons that require a Tank... It's chaos when the bosses are running around targeting the squishies and healer. Wipes happen, tempers flare.

Utter Chaos.




That said, there are some bosses that cannot stay taunted. I wish I had a list of them.

redspecter23

Jeremy wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If you don't want to group with absolute tools that don't perform their roles properly or even at all, why are you pugging? Find a few guilds. Get social and find some friends that play at similar times and run it with people you know. Don't expect the group finder to work magic. Look at the pool of players it has to work with.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that people who queue as tanks to actually be tanks.

Inexperienced or even bad players I don't mind dealing with. I expect that when I pug and that's fine. But having to deal with players who purposely lie about their role for quicker queue times is a different matter.

Oh, it would be fantastic if people weren't liars, trolls or jerks, but no system of forcing players to do what they sign up for is likely to work out as well as just choosing your own group mates to begin with. It's essentially what it boils down to eventually. You exclude enough people based on enough variables until you have a group composition that you are comfortable with. All I'm saying is that if the end result is forming a group with like minded people that all respect each other and do what they sign up for, a system is in place for that already and no matter how you fix the group finder, it will never be as good as a friends list.