Maintenance for the week of June 21:
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – June 24, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) – 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)

Why being a "CP Elitist" Makes No Sense

  • Ep1kMalware
    Ep1kMalware
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm gonna call "***" on some of the posts and reasoning here.

    This is why most dungeons start with some warm-up trash mobs.

    In any case, you're going to know by the first mini-boss whether your group can cut it. (If you can't gauge it by then, then you are likely the one that's inexperienced.

    This may mean offering some helpful advice on mechanics or skill choice. This may mean flat out 'calling it' because it will waste everyone's time.

    As to those saying the dungeon will take an hour if below cpXXX, I certainly hope you're talking about the DLC dungeons or No Death / Hard Mode situations, because someone skilled in four man, the vet versions are far from out of reach.

    And to those that say you can't possibly understand the mechanics of the game at <CP160, just because you grinded your way to CP level does not mean everyone else did.

    Unless the person is sitting at 11k health, refusing to eat food or follow any manner of instructions, take the fight to the first mini-boss before determining whether or not to continue ~ DLC dungeons being the exception.

    At least have the courtesy or the guts to tell the person why they need replaced - often times, the experience (of getting their ass handed to them) will be enough for them to depart on their own.

    what's wrong with 11k? In vets I typically see people demanding to get carried lol.

  • Ep1kMalware
    Ep1kMalware
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also want to comment that depending on the dungeon I'll carry anyone lol.

    For some of the other content I won't run a support without having guildies or friends join the pug with me. As long as you are mentally amd socially capable of taking instruction if you are faili g group mechanics for certain other dungeons that's also not a problem.

    This is often not the case, as most people scream on the mic when you explain the mechs. And frankly, after explaining wgt and getting cussed at for the last 2 years my tolerance for it has worn down alot. I can sympathise with both parties.

    My biggest pet peeve is when I carry people and they can't stop getting themselves killed and berate the team for not having time to rezz their ass so the carry can go back to spamming heavy attacks or wrecking blow. I'm a bit preoccupied doing their job lol.

    I also want to mention that the vast majority of veteran content don't require many group heals. That's why in competstive trials healers are more focused on buffs. Not being stupid and getting hurt = more buffs for the team = more dps = faster and easier.

    While there are a few notable exceptions, heals are for the tanks, not the dps. If you need a lot of heals (not being elitest, just black and white truth here) then you are screwing over both the tank, the other dps, and yourself because the same magica used to give you back resources and buffs is instead being spent on fixing your mistakes. Dps whining about heals are doing something wrong 99.99999999999% of the time. If you que as a dps, remember that you are not perfect.

    People like to talk about infinite resourcs in trials, and that's not true by any measure. Raids with good sustain usually have 8 dps that avoid taking damage. This allows healers to use magics on orbs/shards instead of healing springs. Lol.

    I think I speak for alot of people when I say I don't judge by cp, I don't even look at your level. I don't expect you to do anything useful, nor do I really care. I've got alot I want to do myself in this game and my time is too valuable to waste it on fg2 progressions. However, if you do ask, I'll teach you whatever it is you want to know. But you have to take that step and ask.
    Edited by Ep1kMalware on February 3, 2018 10:42AM
  • RavenSworn
    RavenSworn
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    dday3six wrote: »
    Do you know why we’re having this conversation?

    Because the entire dungeon set up for ESO is *** at building competency. CPs aren’t the real issue. The real issue is the gap between overland content and dungeons. With no solid starting foundation and subsequent build up of progression for dungeoneering to train players how to advance in them. We find many newer, often lower CP players at a loss for how to approach dungeons. The learning curve is a cliff and we all suffer for it.

    ZOS needs to set up and address the failings of the system. Many people riff on the ‘slower’ combat of FFXIV compared to ESO. Well you know what FFXIV excels at? That’s right, introducing and preparing players for dungeons. The system needs to be overhauled simple as that.

    While I agree with your initial thought, the problem doesn't just come from how zos is handling dungeons. The difference between normal dungeons and overland content is not that far, it's usually just mob density per pull. Some world bosses even, are harder than some of the normal dungeon bosses.

    The problem are the players themselves. There isn't any learning curve for group synergy. The players don't do the content for what they were meant for, grouped players. We have group setups like 3 dps 1 heals, or 4 dps for normals.. How do you expect the newer player (regardless of cp levels) to learn group synergy? How do they work with a tank? What is a good healer setup? These are what players need to learn in dungeons. Not whether I have enough cp for these dungeons.

    To the op, I won't kick anyone, period. If they fail, I teach. If they are awesome, I learn. Community is what makes or breaks the game. Not the devs.
    Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.


    Of Wolf and Raven
    Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!
  • Ep1kMalware
    Ep1kMalware
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Honestly what they need is a huge interactive cut-screen tutorial where everyging is highlighted and explained bit by bit. Sort of a simulated instance that shows you what to do and what skills are good in certain situations.

    What a taunt is, how to use it. Etc. Or aoes skills for dps. Nothing extreme, nothing class specific, just the basic skills and how to use them.

    Also eso is one of the first games of its kind, being a console mmo. Mmos have a huge demographic of players and skills sets. They're not meant to be mastered in 1 day. They're meant to keep you busy doing whatever it is you like doing for years. I think alot of players from the console scene just aren't used to this type of learn at your own pace gameplay. MMOs often force the players to learn how the game works by themselves, and collaberate.

    These players either need to grow tf up and accept mmo life, or zos needs to appeal to the casual rpg eso group, and throw in a few tutorials to help people who are new to mmos. it needs to be one or the other. Not the middle ground of nerfing things zenimax usually takes. (Which does NOT help players advance in the first place.) it's pretty much that simple.
    Edited by Ep1kMalware on February 3, 2018 11:47AM
  • SugaComa
    SugaComa
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anyone asking for a specific thing in a pug group are idiot ... No offence

    Take my self for instance

    I can switch gear and skills and I can pull 28k DPS rotation on a dummy (keep in mind I have arthritis in my hands so rotations are hard)

    I have every skill point pretty much in the game except the last 9 or 10 I think you get for cyrodil ranks after rank 31 that's roughly 370 skill points

    I'm CP 690

    Yet I will pretty much most content in my favourite set up with my favourite skills which are a great utility set for groups but in this set up my hands can't keep up the rotation for high DPS in fact it tends to drop to the 18k to 22k mark

    Longer a fight, more it drops as my finger start to lock and become painfully distracting

    Yet on paper/ screenshots I can take my way into most groups requirements ...

    I won't lie though I'm always pretty honest and it's one of the reason I've done so few trials

    Too many elitists wanting *** even for normal trials ... Sorry but I refuse to bow to your eltism I've held my own in the trials I've done I've and proven to be more than capable even with my *** DPS

    So this is a shout out to the heroes who understand that learning game mechanics and team synergy far out ways a number on a screen shot
  • SugaComa
    SugaComa
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    O_LYKOS wrote: »
    CP is just a measure of time played. Nothing else. Granted you'd expect someone with such high cp to understand their character, roll, skills etc but this isn't always the case. A cp 300 can easily put more time and effort in to their characters skills and rotation and pull more dps than a lazy 690.

    No it's not ... It's more a measure of players able to manipulate the xp gain through XP boosters and high XP content ...

    I've got more XP, more skill points on my main than some players who have played 3 times as long as me
  • Robisok74
    Robisok74
    ✭✭✭
    I will leave a group or vote to kick for 2 reasons. 1 we are running a dungeon that needs a tank and the player has put themselves down as all 3 roles and is clearly not a tank
    2 I am the tank and it has taken 10 minutes to kill the first lot of trash adds(i want to complete the dungeon in my lifetime)

    I have come across CP 690 players that are useless and CP 160 players that are very good...
  • Ep1kMalware
    Ep1kMalware
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    SugaComa wrote: »
    Anyone asking for a specific thing in a pug group are idiot ... No offence

    Take my self for instance

    I can switch gear and skills and I can pull 28k DPS rotation on a dummy (keep in mind I have arthritis in my hands so rotations are hard)

    I have every skill point pretty much in the game except the last 9 or 10 I think you get for cyrodil ranks after rank 31 that's roughly 370 skill points

    I'm CP 690

    Yet I will pretty much most content in my favourite set up with my favourite skills which are a great utility set for groups but in this set up my hands can't keep up the rotation for high DPS in fact it tends to drop to the 18k to 22k mark

    Longer a fight, more it drops as my finger start to lock and become painfully distracting

    Yet on paper/ screenshots I can take my way into most groups requirements ...

    I won't lie though I'm always pretty honest and it's one of the reason I've done so few trials

    Too many elitists wanting *** even for normal trials ... Sorry but I refuse to bow to your eltism I've held my own in the trials I've done I've and proven to be more than capable even with my *** DPS

    So this is a shout out to the heroes who understand that learning game mechanics and team synergy far out ways a number on a screen shot

    Some trials (i'm looking at you vmol) require very fast responsiveness or you kill your whole group. The (iirc) mathematical dps requirement to avoid enrage timers is for each dps to do 14k.

    Some of the normal trials (nhof) are slightly harder than some of the non hm veteran trials. It's often not a matter of dps.
  • Aurielle
    Aurielle
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vermintide wrote: »
    A good player carries the group and teaches the less experienced players what they are doing wrong. A bad player simply whines, blames everyone else, and then quits.

    So next time you come up to one of these guys, take comfort that it's them who are likely to suck at the game.

    If anything my favourite experiences on this game are when you scrape through a dungeon as basically a 2 or 3 man, but instead of considering the less effective players as dead weight, you manage to gift them a little skill and understanding on the way through.

    If I'm on a tank build that doesn't do much damage, and the damage dealers spam light bow attacks (despite me patiently telling them that they need to use dots and class skills other than Snipe), I'M the bad player if I get frustrated and leave...? Yeah, sorry @Vermintide , but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. By swapping gear, I can only increase my DPS to about 11-12k on my tank. There's NO way I'm going to respec CP for light attack spammers to bring that up to 20k, which is the bare minimum I need to feel comfortable carrying a group in a reasonable amount of time. I could carry them, sure, and slowly chip away at bosses with my 5-12k damage, but I don't always have in excess of 45 mins to spend with people who refuse to listen, you know? I'll carry anyone on my pet sorc. It's a lot harder to carry people who refuse to learn when I'm on my tank (less so my healer, but that character's not built for damage dealing either) and STILL fulfill all the expectations of the tank/healer role.

  • Cillion3117
    Cillion3117
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    CP don't mean much. I have over 800 cp, and still have no idea what I'm doing.
  • Vermintide
    Vermintide
    ✭✭✭✭
    Aurielle wrote: »

    If I'm on a tank build that doesn't do much damage, and the damage dealers spam light bow attacks (despite me patiently telling them that they need to use dots and class skills other than Snipe), I'M the bad player if I get frustrated and leave...? Yeah, sorry @Vermintide , but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. By swapping gear, I can only increase my DPS to about 11-12k on my tank. There's NO way I'm going to respec CP for light attack spammers to bring that up to 20k, which is the bare minimum I need to feel comfortable carrying a group in a reasonable amount of time. I could carry them, sure, and slowly chip away at bosses with my 5-12k damage, but I don't always have in excess of 45 mins to spend with people who refuse to listen, you know? I'll carry anyone on my pet sorc. It's a lot harder to carry people who refuse to learn when I'm on my tank (less so my healer, but that character's not built for damage dealing either) and STILL fulfill all the expectations of the tank/healer role.
    The topic is about low CP elitism, not bad player elitism.

    If someone genuinely sucks, refuses to learn, and is otherwise just causing you a pain in the backside then... That's a totally different situation, of course.

    Besides, you can be the best bassist in the world, it doesn't make up for the rest of your band sucking. A good guitarist or drummer on the other hand... When you play tank you are willingly placing yourself in that bassist's shoes ;)
    Edited by Vermintide on February 3, 2018 12:19PM
  • Ep1kMalware
    Ep1kMalware
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vermintide wrote: »
    Aurielle wrote: »

    If I'm on a tank build that doesn't do much damage, and the damage dealers spam light bow attacks (despite me patiently telling them that they need to use dots and class skills other than Snipe), I'M the bad player if I get frustrated and leave...? Yeah, sorry @Vermintide , but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. By swapping gear, I can only increase my DPS to about 11-12k on my tank. There's NO way I'm going to respec CP for light attack spammers to bring that up to 20k, which is the bare minimum I need to feel comfortable carrying a group in a reasonable amount of time. I could carry them, sure, and slowly chip away at bosses with my 5-12k damage, but I don't always have in excess of 45 mins to spend with people who refuse to listen, you know? I'll carry anyone on my pet sorc. It's a lot harder to carry people who refuse to learn when I'm on my tank (less so my healer, but that character's not built for damage dealing either) and STILL fulfill all the expectations of the tank/healer role.
    The topic is about low CP elitism, not bad player elitism.

    If someone genuinely sucks, refuses to learn, and is otherwise just causing you a pain in the backside then... That's a totally different situation, of course.

    Besides, you can be the best bassist in the world, it doesn't make up for the rest of your band sucking. A good guitarist or drummer on the other hand... When you play tank you are willingly placing yourself in that bassist's shoes ;)

    And then lies the problem. You might get asked to join a different band ;)
  • Aurielle
    Aurielle
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vermintide wrote: »
    Aurielle wrote: »

    If I'm on a tank build that doesn't do much damage, and the damage dealers spam light bow attacks (despite me patiently telling them that they need to use dots and class skills other than Snipe), I'M the bad player if I get frustrated and leave...? Yeah, sorry @Vermintide , but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. By swapping gear, I can only increase my DPS to about 11-12k on my tank. There's NO way I'm going to respec CP for light attack spammers to bring that up to 20k, which is the bare minimum I need to feel comfortable carrying a group in a reasonable amount of time. I could carry them, sure, and slowly chip away at bosses with my 5-12k damage, but I don't always have in excess of 45 mins to spend with people who refuse to listen, you know? I'll carry anyone on my pet sorc. It's a lot harder to carry people who refuse to learn when I'm on my tank (less so my healer, but that character's not built for damage dealing either) and STILL fulfill all the expectations of the tank/healer role.
    The topic is about low CP elitism, not bad player elitism.

    If someone genuinely sucks, refuses to learn, and is otherwise just causing you a pain in the backside then... That's a totally different situation, of course.

    Besides, you can be the best bassist in the world, it doesn't make up for the rest of your band sucking. A good guitarist or drummer on the other hand... When you play tank you are willingly placing yourself in that bassist's shoes ;)

    Okay, fair enough. It seemed as though you were suggesting that anyone who refuses to carry a group (for any reason) is a bad player. I apologize for assuming. I'm more than willing to help out low CP / no CP players who listen and learn, but there's simply no helping some people.
  • Prof_Bawbag
    Prof_Bawbag
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Also want to comment that depending on the dungeon I'll carry anyone lol.

    For some of the other content I won't run a support without having guildies or friends join the pug with me. As long as you are mentally amd socially capable of taking instruction if you are faili g group mechanics for certain other dungeons that's also not a problem.

    This is often not the case, as most people scream on the mic when you explain the mechs. And frankly, after explaining wgt and getting cussed at for the last 2 years my tolerance for it has worn down alot. I can sympathise with both parties.

    My biggest pet peeve is when I carry people and they can't stop getting themselves killed and berate the team for not having time to rezz their ass so the carry can go back to spamming heavy attacks or wrecking blow. I'm a bit preoccupied doing their job lol.

    I also want to mention that the vast majority of veteran content don't require many group heals. That's why in competstive trials healers are more focused on buffs. Not being stupid and getting hurt = more buffs for the team = more dps = faster and easier.

    While there are a few notable exceptions, heals are for the tanks, not the dps. If you need a lot of heals (not being elitest, just black and white truth here) then you are screwing over both the tank, the other dps, and yourself because the same magica used to give you back resources and buffs is instead being spent on fixing your mistakes. Dps whining about heals are doing something wrong 99.99999999999% of the time. If you que as a dps, remember that you are not perfect.

    People like to talk about infinite resourcs in trials, and that's not true by any measure. Raids with good sustain usually have 8 dps that avoid taking damage. This allows healers to use magics on orbs/shards instead of healing springs. Lol.

    I think I speak for alot of people when I say I don't judge by cp, I don't even look at your level. I don't expect you to do anything useful, nor do I really care. I've got alot I want to do myself in this game and my time is too valuable to waste it on fg2 progressions. However, if you do ask, I'll teach you whatever it is you want to know. But you have to take that step and ask.

    Some people should actually take the time out to listen to themselves and they'd soon realise why it causes friction or can cause friction. More often than not, those doing the tutoring are condescending and simply don't come across very well. Amazing the amount of people who claim to help others by handing out advice before either leaving or kicking, yet they're being anything but. Always point the finger at the scrub when their advice is ignored. I have sat through many a lecture in vet dungeons (lectures not aimed at me) and the vast majority of them are painful listening. They get my back up and I'm not even the person being lectured. I can see why a lot of the teachers in this game get folks backs up because their people skills suck as much as the person they're lecturing play style does.

    Edited by Prof_Bawbag on February 3, 2018 3:15PM
    Carebear Master Race
  • Ep1kMalware
    Ep1kMalware
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also want to comment that depending on the dungeon I'll carry anyone lol.

    For some of the other content I won't run a support without having guildies or friends join the pug with me. As long as you are mentally amd socially capable of taking instruction if you are faili g group mechanics for certain other dungeons that's also not a problem.

    This is often not the case, as most people scream on the mic when you explain the mechs. And frankly, after explaining wgt and getting cussed at for the last 2 years my tolerance for it has worn down alot. I can sympathise with both parties.

    My biggest pet peeve is when I carry people and they can't stop getting themselves killed and berate the team for not having time to rezz their ass so the carry can go back to spamming heavy attacks or wrecking blow. I'm a bit preoccupied doing their job lol.

    I also want to mention that the vast majority of veteran content don't require many group heals. That's why in competstive trials healers are more focused on buffs. Not being stupid and getting hurt = more buffs for the team = more dps = faster and easier.

    While there are a few notable exceptions, heals are for the tanks, not the dps. If you need a lot of heals (not being elitest, just black and white truth here) then you are screwing over both the tank, the other dps, and yourself because the same magica used to give you back resources and buffs is instead being spent on fixing your mistakes. Dps whining about heals are doing something wrong 99.99999999999% of the time. If you que as a dps, remember that you are not perfect.

    People like to talk about infinite resourcs in trials, and that's not true by any measure. Raids with good sustain usually have 8 dps that avoid taking damage. This allows healers to use magics on orbs/shards instead of healing springs. Lol.

    I think I speak for alot of people when I say I don't judge by cp, I don't even look at your level. I don't expect you to do anything useful, nor do I really care. I've got alot I want to do myself in this game and my time is too valuable to waste it on fg2 progressions. However, if you do ask, I'll teach you whatever it is you want to know. But you have to take that step and ask.

    Some people should actually take the time out to listen to themselves and they'd soon realise why it causes friction or can cause friction. More often than not, those doing the tutoring are condescending and simply don't come across very well. Amazing the amount of people who claim to help others by handing out advice before either leaving or kicking, yet they're being anything but. Always point the finger at the scrub when their advice is ignored. I have sat through many a lecture in vet dungeons (lectures not aimed at me) and the vast majority of them are painful listening. They get my back up and I'm not even the person being lectured. I can see why a lot of the teachers in this game get folks backs up because their people skills suck as much as the person they're lecturing play style does.

    Unfortunately mmos are played my many an introvert. And people skills are not instinctual.
  • dday3six
    dday3six
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Honestly what they need is a huge interactive cut-screen tutorial where everyging is highlighted and explained bit by bit. Sort of a simulated instance that shows you what to do and what skills are good in certain situations.

    What a taunt is, how to use it. Etc. Or aoes skills for dps. Nothing extreme, nothing class specific, just the basic skills and how to use them.

    Also eso is one of the first games of its kind, being a console mmo. Mmos have a huge demographic of players and skills sets. They're not meant to be mastered in 1 day. They're meant to keep you busy doing whatever it is you like doing for years. I think alot of players from the console scene just aren't used to this type of learn at your own pace gameplay. MMOs often force the players to learn how the game works by themselves, and collaberate.

    These players either need to grow tf up and accept mmo life, or zos needs to appeal to the casual rpg eso group, and throw in a few tutorials to help people who are new to mmos. it needs to be one or the other. Not the middle ground of nerfing things zenimax usually takes. (Which does NOT help players advance in the first place.) it's pretty much that simple.

    Console MMOs have existed for a long time before ESO. Phantasy Star Online for Dreamcast was the first, released 2001 in Japan then 2002 in the US. FFXI Online launched on PS2 in 2002 in Japan, and March of 2004 on in the US. WoW for reference launched in November of ‘04. Also Everquest Online Adventures was released in 2003.

    The main thing is that the console market was dominated by shooters and sports games for a very long time in North America and Europe, but console mmos are not that new of a thing.
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    I'm gonna call "***" on some of the posts and reasoning here.

    This is why most dungeons start with some warm-up trash mobs.

    In any case, you're going to know by the first mini-boss whether your group can cut it. (If you can't gauge it by then, then you are likely the one that's inexperienced.

    This may mean offering some helpful advice on mechanics or skill choice. This may mean flat out 'calling it' because it will waste everyone's time.

    As to those saying the dungeon will take an hour if below cpXXX, I certainly hope you're talking about the DLC dungeons or No Death / Hard Mode situations, because someone skilled in four man, the vet versions are far from out of reach.

    And to those that say you can't possibly understand the mechanics of the game at <CP160, just because you grinded your way to CP level does not mean everyone else did.

    Unless the person is sitting at 11k health, refusing to eat food or follow any manner of instructions, take the fight to the first mini-boss before determining whether or not to continue ~ DLC dungeons being the exception.

    At least have the courtesy or the guts to tell the person why they need replaced - often times, the experience (of getting their ass handed to them) will be enough for them to depart on their own.

    what's wrong with 11k? In vets I typically see people demanding to get carried lol.
    Nothing, unless there are one-shot mechanics or it's resulting in the player being on their back most of the time vs staying alive and performing their role.

    On the other hand, if there's nothing wrong with having 11k, why'd you have to grab the healing sigil? B)

    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • Ep1kMalware
    Ep1kMalware
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm gonna call "***" on some of the posts and reasoning here.

    This is why most dungeons start with some warm-up trash mobs.

    In any case, you're going to know by the first mini-boss whether your group can cut it. (If you can't gauge it by then, then you are likely the one that's inexperienced.

    This may mean offering some helpful advice on mechanics or skill choice. This may mean flat out 'calling it' because it will waste everyone's time.

    As to those saying the dungeon will take an hour if below cpXXX, I certainly hope you're talking about the DLC dungeons or No Death / Hard Mode situations, because someone skilled in four man, the vet versions are far from out of reach.

    And to those that say you can't possibly understand the mechanics of the game at <CP160, just because you grinded your way to CP level does not mean everyone else did.

    Unless the person is sitting at 11k health, refusing to eat food or follow any manner of instructions, take the fight to the first mini-boss before determining whether or not to continue ~ DLC dungeons being the exception.

    At least have the courtesy or the guts to tell the person why they need replaced - often times, the experience (of getting their ass handed to them) will be enough for them to depart on their own.

    what's wrong with 11k? In vets I typically see people demanding to get carried lol.
    Nothing, unless there are one-shot mechanics or it's resulting in the player being on their back most of the time vs staying alive and performing their role.

    On the other hand, if there's nothing wrong with having 11k, why'd you have to grab the healing sigil? B)

    I was going for flawless on stamplar with 11k because people hated on stamplar. I did end up getting it, but that vid was very early on in my attempts.
  • Agobi
    Agobi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    The only thing required to reach max CP ,is time...no skill or knowledge whatsoever. :D

    I always assume people like this are really bads that need top levels in their group to carry them through...

    Not someone I ever want to play with tbh ,so I'll take me measly 350 CP and go somewhere else :D
  • Sevalaricgirl
    Sevalaricgirl
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Which is why the CP change was terrible. I would rather they left the vet levels in. It really doesn't matter how many CP you have, it matters where you put them.
  • Ep1kMalware
    Ep1kMalware
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm gonna call "***" on some of the posts and reasoning here.

    This is why most dungeons start with some warm-up trash mobs.

    In any case, you're going to know by the first mini-boss whether your group can cut it. (If you can't gauge it by then, then you are likely the one that's inexperienced.

    This may mean offering some helpful advice on mechanics or skill choice. This may mean flat out 'calling it' because it will waste everyone's time.

    As to those saying the dungeon will take an hour if below cpXXX, I certainly hope you're talking about the DLC dungeons or No Death / Hard Mode situations, because someone skilled in four man, the vet versions are far from out of reach.

    And to those that say you can't possibly understand the mechanics of the game at <CP160, just because you grinded your way to CP level does not mean everyone else did.

    Unless the person is sitting at 11k health, refusing to eat food or follow any manner of instructions, take the fight to the first mini-boss before determining whether or not to continue ~ DLC dungeons being the exception.

    At least have the courtesy or the guts to tell the person why they need replaced - often times, the experience (of getting their ass handed to them) will be enough for them to depart on their own.

    what's wrong with 11k? In vets I typically see people demanding to get carried lol.
    Nothing, unless there are one-shot mechanics or it's resulting in the player being on their back most of the time vs staying alive and performing their role.

    On the other hand, if there's nothing wrong with having 11k, why'd you have to grab the healing sigil? B)

    I was going for flawless on stamplar with 11k because people hated on stamplar. I did end up getting it, but that vid was very early on in my attempts.

    Just to elaborate, there were a lot of misconceptions about stamplar at that time. Basically that it was trash for pve. As my main toon I had to prove everbody wrong.

    Stamplar absolutely wrecks in vma btw. It always has. People like to generalize classes and play them the same, gear them the same, and completely forget their strengths/weaknesses. Even the best endgamers forget this.
  • Diminish
    Diminish
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Me and some friends were running vet Bloodroot Forge last night trying to get the speed run achievement (side note, we did it in 20:29 - talk about being salty). In between swapping out our 4th player, we picked up a DPS via group finder. He was like a CP 184 or something like that. We got through without a single wipe in about 30 mins. He did fine, and only had a couple deaths, but... we also had no healer so in my book he did better than many high CP players I've ran it with. People just need to give others a chance. You can be a low level and a great player just as commonly as being a high level and a terrible player.
    Edited by Diminish on February 11, 2018 11:16PM
  • DoctorESO
    DoctorESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    .
    Edited by DoctorESO on September 23, 2018 3:25AM
  • notimetocare
    notimetocare
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Law of averages:
    A CP 160 vs a cp690+, in most cases the 690 has more experience. Always the case? No. but again, law of averages
  • a1i3nz
    a1i3nz
    ✭✭✭✭
    Wtf is a CP elitist?

    Not even hard to get 690+ anymore
  • temjiu
    temjiu
    ✭✭✭✭
    I agree that CP is a horrid way to judge someone. The flip side of the coin, however, is that it's all we got outside of simply spending time with the player.

    This is not something alien to MMO's. Elitist behavior seems to come in any game that advertises "competitive" content. I've seen it in WoW, LotRO, SWtOR, Wildstar...name the MMO, it probably suffers the same disease.

    The only exception I've experienced is FFXIV, and it's probably the best in terms of player flexibility and group training, And I would love to see ESO work on doing similar things. I'm the kind of player that is willing to take time with new players and help them grow and understand. And even with that, there are times that I know I don't have the emotional energy and/or time to do it. But I usually in those times just don't DO IT. I do something else.

    That being said, I also understand the position of someone who's ran things 100's of times, and is not sure they can do one more long wipefest. I get it. it happens. every person has to take the information given them and make a judgement call about what they can/should do with their time.

    I think the only pivotal requirement is that people approach others with respect and dignity. If I have someone that says, "Sorry guys, I just don't have the time today for a long run, wish you the best." and leaves, I'll salute them and move on. the problem isn't the CP. It's the players who think they have the right to treat others rudely and disrespectful because they think they are better.

    Even with the CP filter, the game would simply be a better place if people followed the goodwill approach outlined above.
    Edited by temjiu on February 12, 2018 4:58AM
  • Gnortranermara
    Gnortranermara
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very few of these so-called "CP elitists" actually exist in the game. Very few people are going to kick a 200-500cp player from a random or daily undaunted dungeon without giving them a chance. That's not end-game content and most of us are happy to give it a shot and see what happens, because we know from experience that some low CP players are good enough and that some max CP players are trash.

    What DOES exist is the reasonable and accurate expectation that *normally* higher CP players tend to be superior teammates. That's a fact-based observation we've made over the many long hours we spent getting ourselves to max CP. Most of us DO want at least cp160 players in veteran content, because players below cp160 are almost universally too weak for most vet dungeons (especially DLCs) and the drops they get are worthless. It's not our job to carry them in vet content when they should be staying in normal where they belong, learning mechanics and gaining xp to reach the gear cap so they can get properly outfitted.

    And no, we're not going to go into the very hardest end-game content (veteran trials, especially DLCs) with players who are not max CP, close to it, or at least already proven themselves in some way. You are not entitled to impose burdens on players who worked their way to the top and want to run with others who have earned a spot in end-game groups.
    Edited by Gnortranermara on February 19, 2018 4:39AM
  • Inarre
    Inarre
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very few of these so-called "CP elitists" actually exist in the game.
    I'm told that very few so-called "Neo Nazis" actually exist in the world.
    I guess it depends on the definition of "very few", the potential harm caused by the very few, and what is at stake.
    The definition of very few would probably change depending on how many people of society ran into them and identified them as Neo Nazis through their actions.
    That's a metaphor by the way.
    What DOES exist is the reasonable and accurate expectation that *normally* higher CP players tend to be superior teammates. That's a fact-based observation we've made over the many long hours we spent getting ourselves to max CP.
    Except that the original post was challenging exactly that expectation and explaining why it's not reasonable. I would recommend going back and reading it again and challenging the supporting examples in that initial argument.
    they should be staying in normal where they belong, learning mechanics
    Please tell me which normal dungeon actually teaches anyone mechanics? I just steamrolled through the new DLC dungeons in normal and didnt learn a single mechanic. Who said x player "belongs" in normal dungeons, and what is the point at which they can proceed to vet? When they reach vet rank? When they reach gear cap? When they reach CP stat cap of 300? When they reach cp cap? Which cp cap? The original cap of 501 placed in patch 2.2.0 Orsinium? Patch 2.5.5? 2.6.4? 3.0.0? 3.1.5? 3.2.0? Or 3.3.0?
    Edited by Inarre on February 20, 2018 5:42PM
  • Sabbathius
    Sabbathius
    ✭✭✭✭
    I kinda get both points of view.

    Yes, having a CP165 in the group isn't the end of the world. And yes, sometimes a CP165 will perform much better than a CP720. BUT for vast, vast, vaaaaast majority of the cases, the CP0 to ~CP400 will still be a very "green" player. Which would be fine, except again in vast, vast, vaaaaaast majority of cases in PUGs, these guys don't learn and don't improve at a sufficient pace.

    This last one is evidenced by how long it takes players to beat vMA. Some people first attempt takes 6 hrs, others 12 hrs, others weeks, yet others months. And many can't do it at all, but feel they're entitled to be carried in a vet or a trial somehow. In a PUG, I usually have enough patience for 10-20 wipes, but assuming I see improvement.

    Also, if I'm totally honest, I never actually look at CP or classes unless I see the group struggling. And again in vast, vast, vaaaaast majority of the time, if group is struggling, you feel it immediately. With experience, you don't need a DPS meter or a heal meter to know that the group is struggling. It's typically obvious on the very first trash pull. At which point I will look at CP, but usually give them the benefit of the doubt until at least a few bosses. But if you wipe on trash? Yeah, either you go or I go. I'm not wasting my time.

    Final thought, I am NOT FINE with people treating vet dungeons, especially DLC dungeons, like a practice yard. A veteran dungeon is a VETERAN dungeon. If you are a green noob unfamiliar even with the most basic game mechanics, you have no business in a VETERAN dungeon, because you ain't one. I cannot tell you how many times we get (painfully) to the last boss in vet Direfrost Keep, only for me to have to start teaching people how break-free works, because they don't know. There's a certain expectation of competence in vet dungeons. It means pots if you can't make it work without them, it definitely means food, it means decent spec, not "Tee hee I'm roleplaying, so I don't need no stinkin' bow" from a guy pulling an awesome 6k DPS. Vets are vets. It's time to get serious. In Normals though? I don't care. You can play tiddlywinks while I solo the instance.

    Oh, and your reasons #1 and #2 make no sense. The first because CP today isn't the CP we had 1.5 years ago, the bonuses were completely different, and game behaved completely differently mechanics-wise (like proc sets critting). Heck, even a year ago things were completely different (Morrowind sustain nerf). So that point is entirely moot, it was a different game back then. And second point is moot because if you don't have the CP, it doesn't matter how frontloaded it is, you still don't got it. The third point about experience is true, but experience comes with time, and time typically results in high CP, so high experience and high CP often (but not always) go hand in hand.
    Edited by Sabbathius on February 20, 2018 6:25PM
  • ManicDee
    ManicDee
    CP is a proxy for "how quickly will I complete this dungeon with these people that I don't know?"

    If I arrive in vet ICP and see that the group I'm with has one DPS under 200CP I'll leave. I don't have four hours to run one dungeon. Assuming all else remains equal (player skill, character build, etc), CP is a factor I have control over. I'll also check the health of the people in the party: under 16k? I'm out of there.

    If the group is all over 300CP and everyone has at least 16k health, I'll give them until the first boss. If the group single target DPS is under 50k, I'm not hanging around. This is not "elitism" this is "managing my play time." There are no magic mirrors that I can ask to give me accurate predictions of players' capabilities, so I have to make decisions based on the poor information I am presented.

    Yes, we completed the same content with less CP years ago. But that was years ago, the content was new, and we were willing to run the content with people at about the same level of competence as ourselves. We knew how long it would take to finish each dungeon given a decent group. We still dropped out if people were too low or looked poorly geared.

    Yes, CP has been front loaded for a year. But more CP is still always better. A DPS with 300CP is still unlikely to have the same damage dealing capacity as someone with 690CP. Sure, that person with 561CP might be a recent PC arrival who learned to play on console. But then you have a decision to make: fight to the first boss and gauge the party's capability there, or kick the sub-690 and get someone likely to have more DPS, more survivability, and more sustainability, then gauge at the first boss knowing you are more likely to complete the dungeon in the time you have allocated.

    The OP suggests that skill and knowledge mean far more than CP ever will, but assuming equal skill and knowledge CP matter. OP even performs the calculations: the difference between 561 and 690CP is just under 4% DPS. That is the decision that so-called "elitists" are making: they are assuming all players are of equal skill and knowledge, and making a snap decision based on CP. Kicking you from the group means spending a few seconds waiting for a replacement DPS. Leaving you in the group means taking a few minutes longer to complete the dungeon. That's a profitable trade-off.

    CP means everything in the grand scheme of things, because it's the only metric we have.
Sign In or Register to comment.