Merlin13KAGL wrote: »I'm gonna call "***" on some of the posts and reasoning here.
This is why most dungeons start with some warm-up trash mobs.
In any case, you're going to know by the first mini-boss whether your group can cut it. (If you can't gauge it by then, then you are likely the one that's inexperienced.
This may mean offering some helpful advice on mechanics or skill choice. This may mean flat out 'calling it' because it will waste everyone's time.
As to those saying the dungeon will take an hour if below cpXXX, I certainly hope you're talking about the DLC dungeons or No Death / Hard Mode situations, because someone skilled in four man, the vet versions are far from out of reach.
And to those that say you can't possibly understand the mechanics of the game at <CP160, just because you grinded your way to CP level does not mean everyone else did.
Unless the person is sitting at 11k health, refusing to eat food or follow any manner of instructions, take the fight to the first mini-boss before determining whether or not to continue ~ DLC dungeons being the exception.
At least have the courtesy or the guts to tell the person why they need replaced - often times, the experience (of getting their ass handed to them) will be enough for them to depart on their own.
Do you know why we’re having this conversation?
Because the entire dungeon set up for ESO is *** at building competency. CPs aren’t the real issue. The real issue is the gap between overland content and dungeons. With no solid starting foundation and subsequent build up of progression for dungeoneering to train players how to advance in them. We find many newer, often lower CP players at a loss for how to approach dungeons. The learning curve is a cliff and we all suffer for it.
ZOS needs to set up and address the failings of the system. Many people riff on the ‘slower’ combat of FFXIV compared to ESO. Well you know what FFXIV excels at? That’s right, introducing and preparing players for dungeons. The system needs to be overhauled simple as that.
CP is just a measure of time played. Nothing else. Granted you'd expect someone with such high cp to understand their character, roll, skills etc but this isn't always the case. A cp 300 can easily put more time and effort in to their characters skills and rotation and pull more dps than a lazy 690.
Anyone asking for a specific thing in a pug group are idiot ... No offence
Take my self for instance
I can switch gear and skills and I can pull 28k DPS rotation on a dummy (keep in mind I have arthritis in my hands so rotations are hard)
I have every skill point pretty much in the game except the last 9 or 10 I think you get for cyrodil ranks after rank 31 that's roughly 370 skill points
I'm CP 690
Yet I will pretty much most content in my favourite set up with my favourite skills which are a great utility set for groups but in this set up my hands can't keep up the rotation for high DPS in fact it tends to drop to the 18k to 22k mark
Longer a fight, more it drops as my finger start to lock and become painfully distracting
Yet on paper/ screenshots I can take my way into most groups requirements ...
I won't lie though I'm always pretty honest and it's one of the reason I've done so few trials
Too many elitists wanting *** even for normal trials ... Sorry but I refuse to bow to your eltism I've held my own in the trials I've done I've and proven to be more than capable even with my *** DPS
So this is a shout out to the heroes who understand that learning game mechanics and team synergy far out ways a number on a screen shot
Vermintide wrote: »A good player carries the group and teaches the less experienced players what they are doing wrong. A bad player simply whines, blames everyone else, and then quits.
So next time you come up to one of these guys, take comfort that it's them who are likely to suck at the game.
If anything my favourite experiences on this game are when you scrape through a dungeon as basically a 2 or 3 man, but instead of considering the less effective players as dead weight, you manage to gift them a little skill and understanding on the way through.
The topic is about low CP elitism, not bad player elitism.
If I'm on a tank build that doesn't do much damage, and the damage dealers spam light bow attacks (despite me patiently telling them that they need to use dots and class skills other than Snipe), I'M the bad player if I get frustrated and leave...? Yeah, sorry @Vermintide , but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. By swapping gear, I can only increase my DPS to about 11-12k on my tank. There's NO way I'm going to respec CP for light attack spammers to bring that up to 20k, which is the bare minimum I need to feel comfortable carrying a group in a reasonable amount of time. I could carry them, sure, and slowly chip away at bosses with my 5-12k damage, but I don't always have in excess of 45 mins to spend with people who refuse to listen, you know? I'll carry anyone on my pet sorc. It's a lot harder to carry people who refuse to learn when I'm on my tank (less so my healer, but that character's not built for damage dealing either) and STILL fulfill all the expectations of the tank/healer role.
Vermintide wrote: »The topic is about low CP elitism, not bad player elitism.
If I'm on a tank build that doesn't do much damage, and the damage dealers spam light bow attacks (despite me patiently telling them that they need to use dots and class skills other than Snipe), I'M the bad player if I get frustrated and leave...? Yeah, sorry @Vermintide , but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. By swapping gear, I can only increase my DPS to about 11-12k on my tank. There's NO way I'm going to respec CP for light attack spammers to bring that up to 20k, which is the bare minimum I need to feel comfortable carrying a group in a reasonable amount of time. I could carry them, sure, and slowly chip away at bosses with my 5-12k damage, but I don't always have in excess of 45 mins to spend with people who refuse to listen, you know? I'll carry anyone on my pet sorc. It's a lot harder to carry people who refuse to learn when I'm on my tank (less so my healer, but that character's not built for damage dealing either) and STILL fulfill all the expectations of the tank/healer role.
If someone genuinely sucks, refuses to learn, and is otherwise just causing you a pain in the backside then... That's a totally different situation, of course.
Besides, you can be the best bassist in the world, it doesn't make up for the rest of your band sucking. A good guitarist or drummer on the other hand... When you play tank you are willingly placing yourself in that bassist's shoes
Vermintide wrote: »The topic is about low CP elitism, not bad player elitism.
If I'm on a tank build that doesn't do much damage, and the damage dealers spam light bow attacks (despite me patiently telling them that they need to use dots and class skills other than Snipe), I'M the bad player if I get frustrated and leave...? Yeah, sorry @Vermintide , but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. By swapping gear, I can only increase my DPS to about 11-12k on my tank. There's NO way I'm going to respec CP for light attack spammers to bring that up to 20k, which is the bare minimum I need to feel comfortable carrying a group in a reasonable amount of time. I could carry them, sure, and slowly chip away at bosses with my 5-12k damage, but I don't always have in excess of 45 mins to spend with people who refuse to listen, you know? I'll carry anyone on my pet sorc. It's a lot harder to carry people who refuse to learn when I'm on my tank (less so my healer, but that character's not built for damage dealing either) and STILL fulfill all the expectations of the tank/healer role.
If someone genuinely sucks, refuses to learn, and is otherwise just causing you a pain in the backside then... That's a totally different situation, of course.
Besides, you can be the best bassist in the world, it doesn't make up for the rest of your band sucking. A good guitarist or drummer on the other hand... When you play tank you are willingly placing yourself in that bassist's shoes
Ep1kMalware wrote: »Also want to comment that depending on the dungeon I'll carry anyone lol.
For some of the other content I won't run a support without having guildies or friends join the pug with me. As long as you are mentally amd socially capable of taking instruction if you are faili g group mechanics for certain other dungeons that's also not a problem.
This is often not the case, as most people scream on the mic when you explain the mechs. And frankly, after explaining wgt and getting cussed at for the last 2 years my tolerance for it has worn down alot. I can sympathise with both parties.
My biggest pet peeve is when I carry people and they can't stop getting themselves killed and berate the team for not having time to rezz their ass so the carry can go back to spamming heavy attacks or wrecking blow. I'm a bit preoccupied doing their job lol.
I also want to mention that the vast majority of veteran content don't require many group heals. That's why in competstive trials healers are more focused on buffs. Not being stupid and getting hurt = more buffs for the team = more dps = faster and easier.
While there are a few notable exceptions, heals are for the tanks, not the dps. If you need a lot of heals (not being elitest, just black and white truth here) then you are screwing over both the tank, the other dps, and yourself because the same magica used to give you back resources and buffs is instead being spent on fixing your mistakes. Dps whining about heals are doing something wrong 99.99999999999% of the time. If you que as a dps, remember that you are not perfect.
People like to talk about infinite resourcs in trials, and that's not true by any measure. Raids with good sustain usually have 8 dps that avoid taking damage. This allows healers to use magics on orbs/shards instead of healing springs. Lol.
I think I speak for alot of people when I say I don't judge by cp, I don't even look at your level. I don't expect you to do anything useful, nor do I really care. I've got alot I want to do myself in this game and my time is too valuable to waste it on fg2 progressions. However, if you do ask, I'll teach you whatever it is you want to know. But you have to take that step and ask.
Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Ep1kMalware wrote: »Also want to comment that depending on the dungeon I'll carry anyone lol.
For some of the other content I won't run a support without having guildies or friends join the pug with me. As long as you are mentally amd socially capable of taking instruction if you are faili g group mechanics for certain other dungeons that's also not a problem.
This is often not the case, as most people scream on the mic when you explain the mechs. And frankly, after explaining wgt and getting cussed at for the last 2 years my tolerance for it has worn down alot. I can sympathise with both parties.
My biggest pet peeve is when I carry people and they can't stop getting themselves killed and berate the team for not having time to rezz their ass so the carry can go back to spamming heavy attacks or wrecking blow. I'm a bit preoccupied doing their job lol.
I also want to mention that the vast majority of veteran content don't require many group heals. That's why in competstive trials healers are more focused on buffs. Not being stupid and getting hurt = more buffs for the team = more dps = faster and easier.
While there are a few notable exceptions, heals are for the tanks, not the dps. If you need a lot of heals (not being elitest, just black and white truth here) then you are screwing over both the tank, the other dps, and yourself because the same magica used to give you back resources and buffs is instead being spent on fixing your mistakes. Dps whining about heals are doing something wrong 99.99999999999% of the time. If you que as a dps, remember that you are not perfect.
People like to talk about infinite resourcs in trials, and that's not true by any measure. Raids with good sustain usually have 8 dps that avoid taking damage. This allows healers to use magics on orbs/shards instead of healing springs. Lol.
I think I speak for alot of people when I say I don't judge by cp, I don't even look at your level. I don't expect you to do anything useful, nor do I really care. I've got alot I want to do myself in this game and my time is too valuable to waste it on fg2 progressions. However, if you do ask, I'll teach you whatever it is you want to know. But you have to take that step and ask.
Some people should actually take the time out to listen to themselves and they'd soon realise why it causes friction or can cause friction. More often than not, those doing the tutoring are condescending and simply don't come across very well. Amazing the amount of people who claim to help others by handing out advice before either leaving or kicking, yet they're being anything but. Always point the finger at the scrub when their advice is ignored. I have sat through many a lecture in vet dungeons (lectures not aimed at me) and the vast majority of them are painful listening. They get my back up and I'm not even the person being lectured. I can see why a lot of the teachers in this game get folks backs up because their people skills suck as much as the person they're lecturing play style does.
Ep1kMalware wrote: »Honestly what they need is a huge interactive cut-screen tutorial where everyging is highlighted and explained bit by bit. Sort of a simulated instance that shows you what to do and what skills are good in certain situations.
What a taunt is, how to use it. Etc. Or aoes skills for dps. Nothing extreme, nothing class specific, just the basic skills and how to use them.
Also eso is one of the first games of its kind, being a console mmo. Mmos have a huge demographic of players and skills sets. They're not meant to be mastered in 1 day. They're meant to keep you busy doing whatever it is you like doing for years. I think alot of players from the console scene just aren't used to this type of learn at your own pace gameplay. MMOs often force the players to learn how the game works by themselves, and collaberate.
These players either need to grow tf up and accept mmo life, or zos needs to appeal to the casual rpg eso group, and throw in a few tutorials to help people who are new to mmos. it needs to be one or the other. Not the middle ground of nerfing things zenimax usually takes. (Which does NOT help players advance in the first place.) it's pretty much that simple.
Nothing, unless there are one-shot mechanics or it's resulting in the player being on their back most of the time vs staying alive and performing their role.Ep1kMalware wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »I'm gonna call "***" on some of the posts and reasoning here.
This is why most dungeons start with some warm-up trash mobs.
In any case, you're going to know by the first mini-boss whether your group can cut it. (If you can't gauge it by then, then you are likely the one that's inexperienced.
This may mean offering some helpful advice on mechanics or skill choice. This may mean flat out 'calling it' because it will waste everyone's time.
As to those saying the dungeon will take an hour if below cpXXX, I certainly hope you're talking about the DLC dungeons or No Death / Hard Mode situations, because someone skilled in four man, the vet versions are far from out of reach.
And to those that say you can't possibly understand the mechanics of the game at <CP160, just because you grinded your way to CP level does not mean everyone else did.
Unless the person is sitting at 11k health, refusing to eat food or follow any manner of instructions, take the fight to the first mini-boss before determining whether or not to continue ~ DLC dungeons being the exception.
At least have the courtesy or the guts to tell the person why they need replaced - often times, the experience (of getting their ass handed to them) will be enough for them to depart on their own.
what's wrong with 11k? In vets I typically see people demanding to get carried lol.
Merlin13KAGL wrote: »Nothing, unless there are one-shot mechanics or it's resulting in the player being on their back most of the time vs staying alive and performing their role.Ep1kMalware wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »I'm gonna call "***" on some of the posts and reasoning here.
This is why most dungeons start with some warm-up trash mobs.
In any case, you're going to know by the first mini-boss whether your group can cut it. (If you can't gauge it by then, then you are likely the one that's inexperienced.
This may mean offering some helpful advice on mechanics or skill choice. This may mean flat out 'calling it' because it will waste everyone's time.
As to those saying the dungeon will take an hour if below cpXXX, I certainly hope you're talking about the DLC dungeons or No Death / Hard Mode situations, because someone skilled in four man, the vet versions are far from out of reach.
And to those that say you can't possibly understand the mechanics of the game at <CP160, just because you grinded your way to CP level does not mean everyone else did.
Unless the person is sitting at 11k health, refusing to eat food or follow any manner of instructions, take the fight to the first mini-boss before determining whether or not to continue ~ DLC dungeons being the exception.
At least have the courtesy or the guts to tell the person why they need replaced - often times, the experience (of getting their ass handed to them) will be enough for them to depart on their own.
what's wrong with 11k? In vets I typically see people demanding to get carried lol.
On the other hand, if there's nothing wrong with having 11k, why'd you have to grab the healing sigil?
Ep1kMalware wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »Nothing, unless there are one-shot mechanics or it's resulting in the player being on their back most of the time vs staying alive and performing their role.Ep1kMalware wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »I'm gonna call "***" on some of the posts and reasoning here.
This is why most dungeons start with some warm-up trash mobs.
In any case, you're going to know by the first mini-boss whether your group can cut it. (If you can't gauge it by then, then you are likely the one that's inexperienced.
This may mean offering some helpful advice on mechanics or skill choice. This may mean flat out 'calling it' because it will waste everyone's time.
As to those saying the dungeon will take an hour if below cpXXX, I certainly hope you're talking about the DLC dungeons or No Death / Hard Mode situations, because someone skilled in four man, the vet versions are far from out of reach.
And to those that say you can't possibly understand the mechanics of the game at <CP160, just because you grinded your way to CP level does not mean everyone else did.
Unless the person is sitting at 11k health, refusing to eat food or follow any manner of instructions, take the fight to the first mini-boss before determining whether or not to continue ~ DLC dungeons being the exception.
At least have the courtesy or the guts to tell the person why they need replaced - often times, the experience (of getting their ass handed to them) will be enough for them to depart on their own.
what's wrong with 11k? In vets I typically see people demanding to get carried lol.
On the other hand, if there's nothing wrong with having 11k, why'd you have to grab the healing sigil?
I was going for flawless on stamplar with 11k because people hated on stamplar. I did end up getting it, but that vid was very early on in my attempts.
I'm told that very few so-called "Neo Nazis" actually exist in the world.SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »Very few of these so-called "CP elitists" actually exist in the game.
Except that the original post was challenging exactly that expectation and explaining why it's not reasonable. I would recommend going back and reading it again and challenging the supporting examples in that initial argument.SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »What DOES exist is the reasonable and accurate expectation that *normally* higher CP players tend to be superior teammates. That's a fact-based observation we've made over the many long hours we spent getting ourselves to max CP.
Please tell me which normal dungeon actually teaches anyone mechanics? I just steamrolled through the new DLC dungeons in normal and didnt learn a single mechanic. Who said x player "belongs" in normal dungeons, and what is the point at which they can proceed to vet? When they reach vet rank? When they reach gear cap? When they reach CP stat cap of 300? When they reach cp cap? Which cp cap? The original cap of 501 placed in patch 2.2.0 Orsinium? Patch 2.5.5? 2.6.4? 3.0.0? 3.1.5? 3.2.0? Or 3.3.0?SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »they should be staying in normal where they belong, learning mechanics