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Why being a "CP Elitist" Makes No Sense

Inarre
Inarre
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"CP Elitists" (AKA players who gauge whether or not other players are good enough to run dungeons with them based on their CP) have been appearing more and more often in my PUG groups, often resulting in the Elitist leaving our group to repeat this behavior somewhere else 15 minutes later... So I wanted to put some thoughts to the community to hopefully put this ideal in perspective.

CP Elitists completed the same content with people 129CP less a year and a half ago.
Being an Elitist when the CP cap was 561 meant the "most elite" completed content with 561CP. A year and a half later, the majority of the veteran content out there is exactly the same as it was in One Tamriel, only the players have gained CP. With this in mind, you could say instant vote-kicking someone between 690 and 561CP is basically admitting maxCP a year ago was not good enough to run the content. And of course, we know that to be false, since we all completed content!

CP has been frontloaded for almost a year, meaning the benefits of more CP is less effective
I used the Morrowind CP optimal distribution for a mage with the same CP build as a rough starting point to calculate the average percent difference in damage for each CP level. This is just a very basic comparison, but the difference was laughable.
  • The average difference between a character with 690CP and a fresh vet at 160CP is is approximately 19.79%
  • The average difference between a character with 690CP and 300CP is approximately 13.26%
  • The average difference between a character with 690CP and 561CP is approximately 3.93%
If this is accurate, it suggests that Elitists are always kicking based on less than 20% and often vote-kicking players for less than a 5% character power difference. Which brings me to my next point...

Skills and knowledge mean far more than CP ever will
If Combat prayer adds 8% damage, and 129 CP adds 4% damage, which is more important? Of course, the elitist will say "Well, I want a cp690 healer who runs combat prayer", and sure, that is ideal, but... we have ALL run PUG's and they are rarely ideal. In fact, there are many max cp players who have 0 clue what they are doing. Instantly kicking someone based on CP rather than skill says that the CP is more important. Which mathematically makes no sense.

Or in other words, CP doesn’t matter as much as knowledge and teamwork does. And I'm not even going to get into how 690 CPs can be invested to be absolutely worthless. Or the limited effect 690CPs actually has on roles like tanking and healing. Or even, the fact that before we couldn't even see each others CP!

In conclusion I would like to ask the community to re-think the inclination to vote-kick the next time you see a lower CP player in your PUG group, or even the importance of recruiting max-level CP players to your premades. CP really means very little in the grand scheme of veteran dungeons.
Edited by Inarre on January 31, 2018 6:06PM
  • WhitePawPrints
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    I had a CP690 spam light bow attack in a vet dungeon. Did not know a single mechanic either. I have no idea how someone can reach 690 and not know a thing about rotation or basic mechanics. The account must have been bought or he literally got carried through grinds for months.

    I simply ask what someone’s DPS is when I’m forming a group with higher expectations. And sometimes what sets the healer is wearing.
    Dozens of core groups that I participated in have left the game. We would bring our grievances here, but after years of white knights on the forum shouting down legitimate complaints, backed up by the inconsistent and biased hammer of moderators, we have all moved onto other games. Enjoy the sinking ships you've built whiteknights.
  • Katahdin
    Katahdin
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    I think number of skill points on a character to be as important if not more important. Because skill points=skills unlocked and morphed (hopefully). Unfortunately CP is the only indicator we have.

    I always give the group a chance because yes you can be surprised sometimes.

    I wait until the first boss to evaluate. I explain mechanics where necessary.

    If the group wipes badly 3 times with no improvement on the first boss or on a boss I know is easy compared to later bosses, and I feel it is going to be an extremely difficult or impossible run, I leave the group.

    I just don't have the time or the patience most of the time to deal with it.
    Edited by Katahdin on January 31, 2018 6:19PM
    Beta tester November 2013
  • WhoSlappedThePie
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    Get a keyboard > message the player and explain that you’re low cp but you know mechanics and rotation. That should keep you from being kicked if you’re lower CP.

    There’s no way to tell if someone low cp knows more than you think they do other than typing. This always gets brought up. People are too concerned with numbers than trying their luck with someone who might be decent.

    I’d rather group with higher cp as most my pugs with max cp have been better. Most my pugs with lower cp have been worse.
    "It does not matter how slowly you go so long as you do not stop."

    Current Toons (Max CP):
    Magsorc Breton
    Magblade Darkelf
    Stam DK Redguard
    Healer Templar High Elf
    Tank DK Argonian
    Stamblade Redguard

    Completed: vHoF | vMoL | vSO | vSO HM | vAA | vAA HM | vHR | vHR HM | vMA | vDSA
  • Ratzkifal
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    Who kicks 561CP players?! below 300CP vet DLC dungeons take hours to complete if at all possible. It has always been like that. I used to hate this "elitist" behavior too, but I didn't understand how CP were increasing your stats in addition to what passives you put them in to. Now I understand it and explain it to low CP players whenever Dungeon finder throws me into hard vet content.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Beardimus
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    Unless you are going for no death or hard mode (an of you are doing via a pug is a bit foolish) it really doesn't matter. Decent players on cap should be able to pull others thru.

    My rule is see if it impacts the run. If I'm on time pressure and someone's got no AOE, are light attacking the first mobs and boss, not on comms then odds are ill probably just leave rather then try to boot them. Of I have time ill try to see it thru
    Xbox One | EU | EP
    Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
    Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
    1st Emperor of Ravenwatch
    Alts - - for the Lolz
    Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
    Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
    Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master

    Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
    Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
    Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | FourSquareTraders

    Xbox One | NA | EP
    Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
    Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
    Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
    Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach
  • idk
    idk
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    Get a keyboard > message the player and explain that you’re low cp but you know mechanics and rotation. That should keep you from being kicked if you’re lower CP.

    There’s no way to tell if someone low cp knows more than you think they do other than typing. This always gets brought up. People are too concerned with numbers than trying their luck with someone who might be decent.

    I’d rather group with higher cp as most my pugs with max cp have been better. Most my pugs with lower cp have been worse.

    Lol. If only.

    As a lowbie (lvl 45) but max CP had a vet character kick me because normal dungeons was not the place to get XP. It's a guy who I've never seen in any raid group so probably below average and needed players to do serious carrying if him.

    It's players like that who are ignorant and if which probably call into the category OP is mentioning.
  • KingYogi415
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    Someone with 500CP could have started 3-4 months ago. Where someone with 800-900cop started 2-3 YEARS ago.

    Big differernce.

    When pugging you think about about your own time constraints. Maybe post a 30k+ dps parse and you wont get kicked from vet dlc content.
  • Dojohoda
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    thedude33 wrote: »
    OP is an English and grammar elitist.

    Correct spelling, capitals, paragraphs, commas, periods, bold font, underlines.

    omg we dont want those types on these here forums !

    It's a thing of beauty. I am still passed out on the floor.
    Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
    Might be joking in comments.
  • Liley
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    I know a guy who did vMA flawless with less than 500 cp's.
    I know a tank with less than 300 cp's, doing greater than a lot of 690+ cp tanks.

    So yeah, there are people with low cp's who are very good. However, if you don't know anyone in your group, you just assume that the player with a lot of cp's knows how to play his char.
    When I'm looking for a decent player in zone chat and someone low cp whispers me, I'm willing to give them a chance if they have got at least a few certain achievments that prove that they somehow know what they are doing.
    PC | EU

    Muriel Winterhauch | Magicka Sorcerer


  • klowdy1
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    Going into a vet dungeon sub 160cp tells people that person doesn't understand basic game systems. There is no reason to go into a vet dungeon sub 160cp other than to say you did it. Gear is obsolete after 1-10 levels, and the exp isn't that good when you take an hour to finish the dungeon.

    I personally don't care, I'll drop group if it gets too bad. Others see it as an instant kick circumstance. I don't use CP as a gauge, because people change platforms, and they may be great players.

    Some players may enter a vet without knowing, too. I used to get through half of a vet before someone would ask me why I was in there before 160cp. I entered using a random, but was automatically set to queue for vets, and I would forget to change it.

  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    The correlation between player skill and CP, is probably pretty small. You are either a good button pusher or you arent. Sure, eso has a learning curve, but a good gamer can do a basic DPS rotation long before they get to the CP cap. Age is probably the biggest factor here as most gamers reach their peak in their late teens or early 20's.

    The correlation between CP and player's knowledge of the game is probably more relevant. I dont want to take a CP 100 player through VCOS, because the likely just havent played enough to grasp this games more nuanced mechanics, which will cause issues. You dont need any CP to clear any of this games 4-man content, but you have to know the content. While I am generally opposed to kicking solely based on CP, there situations where I at least get it. The better way to address this is of course not to join a random queue for harder content.

    The only place where I think it is acceptable to discriminate based on CP is score runs, but thats not really relevant as groupfinder and score run dont go together.
    Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - 1,800+ CP

    My Toons:
    DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Khajiit, Bearzilla - Argonian
    Sorcs: Bear Shot First - AR44 - Breton, Bearricane - Orc, Molag Bear - Khajiit
    NBs: Bearclaw Oreyn - Dunmer, Bearblade - Bosmer, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
    Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Orc, Bearamedic - Argonian
    Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer (DC)
    Necros: Bearomancer - Dunmer, ßearßones - Orc, Bearona Virus - Breton

    vKAHM, vSSHM, vCR+3, vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vBRP, vDSA, Flawless Conqueror-All Classes, Spirit Slayer
  • idk
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    Someone with 500CP could have started 3-4 months ago. Where someone with 800-900cop started 2-3 YEARS ago.

    Big differernce.

    When pugging you think about about your own time constraints. Maybe post a 30k+ dps parse and you wont get kicked from vet dlc content.

    And someone with CP 100 can do more dps than many beyond the CP cap. I've seen it.

    When putting your rolling the dice by choice. It ends up beInt not a big deal most if the time for good players though since they can carry others. It's why the good players don't really complain about this not kick players from the group due to CP and stuff like that.
  • Aurielle
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    Someone with 500CP could have started 3-4 months ago. Where someone with 800-900cop started 2-3 YEARS ago.

    Big differernce.

    When pugging you think about about your own time constraints. Maybe post a 30k+ dps parse and you wont get kicked from vet dlc content.

    Big difference? How? I only have 570ish CP and haven't been here since day 1 (didn't buy the game after beta), but I can GUARANTEE you I'm a better player than anyone beyond the CP cap who never bothered to look up/test builds, test their DPS, etc.

    Use the first boss as a gauge. If that non-capped player stands in the back of the room Sniping or light attacking ferociously, then feel free to kick.
  • AlienatedGoat
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    What makes even less sense is the CP elitists that gauge player ability based on CP points earned over the CP cap.

    Having 1000 CP points doesn't make you a better player than someone with 800, 700, or only CP cap.
    PC-NA Goat
  • O_LYKOS
    O_LYKOS
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    CP is just a measure of time played. Nothing else. Granted you'd expect someone with such high cp to understand their character, roll, skills etc but this isn't always the case. A cp 300 can easily put more time and effort in to their characters skills and rotation and pull more dps than a lazy 690.
    PC NA - IIOLYKOSII
  • zaria
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    Git gud then. Cp is now ez af to get. I insta kick everyone below 160.

    Then don't pug groups. If you did not set up your own "git gud" group then don't be salty and kick because you get a low CP in your group. If you are so "gud", most content my boyfriend and I can two-man so if you get one low CP, it shouldn't affect you for most 4 man dungeons (vet and normal). :|
    This group finder is very nice for easy content. Normals its pretty pointless to make guild groups for unless farming.
    Easier vet dungeons also tend to work well.
    However if you use finder on hard veteran content and expect smooth run and HM you live in an fantasy world far less realistic than tamriel.

    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Hurtfan
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    CP elite-ism does exist in PvP also. Good news is, in PvP you can get a group no problem even with low CP. But I noticed low CP toons get passed over on rezes all the time. I rez everyone regardless of CP total, I figure hey, they made it all the way to this keep with 210 CPs, they deserve a rez.

    But I agree with some of what has already been said, I've been owned by a low CP player a couple of times, I still can't wrap my mind around it ...but Kudos to them and their build. Because of this, I will group with low CP players in dungeons, and a vast majority of the time they do fine.
    For the Pact!
    Keyboard not found, press any key to continue
  • Inarre
    Inarre
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    below 300CP vet DLC dungeons take hours to complete if at all possible. It has always been like that. I used to hate this "elitist" behavior too, but I didn't understand how CP were increasing your stats in addition to what passives you put them in to.

    I disagree with your statement.

    I was once cp300 (as we all were) and completed vet DLC dungeons. I farmed my entire SPC set doing vWGT speed runs/no deaths with CP260 back before vWGT got nerfed. I also completed vICP. I continue to complete vet DLC content with players of all levels, just the other day we did vWGT hard mode with a 126CP player. Many players have posted hard content completions with 300CP or even less, there are even 0CP runs done in VMA on youtube, which I see many players claim is the hardest content in the game (some claim in any game!).

    I wont post the whole thing here as it's long, but here is a link to a post by Asayre that explains the mathematics behind stat increases (click on the arrows):
    Asayre wrote: »
    Of course the percentage will depend on your base stats so I won't compare it, but if you translate that into a percentage using Asayre's example it is in line with my rough framework done in the original post.

    CP doesn't make or break any dungeon team in my experience, not even a vet DLC dungeon. Who you run with is your choice, just please don't submit group finder groups to your requirements if you need max CP to complete DLC content. Players with less than max CP have the right to queue using group finder without being kicked for other player's misconceptions.


    Edited by Inarre on February 1, 2018 12:30AM
  • Runefang
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    When so many players have max CP now days its just easy to pick only those players to run with.
  • Inarre
    Inarre
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    thedude33 wrote: »
    OP is an English and grammar elitist.

    Correct spelling, capitals, paragraphs, commas, periods, bold font, underlines.

    omg we dont want those types on these here forums !

    I had to get elitist if I wanted my wall of text read by you plebs! (jk jk :) )
  • Jacozilla
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    While I agree with what I think OP's general intention was, what he actually said is disingenuous at best and deliberately misleading at worst.

    OP positions the debate as high CP / max or beyond cap players leaving lower CP players, with a deliberate bias skewed example of 500+ to 690 CP.
    OP also positions one main counterpoint as lots of dungeons haven't changed from days when CP cap was lower, and in truth that is correct - as many dungeons were scaled -and still are- back when VR14 / VR16 was the system max.

    Yet he mentions not at all the extremely higher scaled, and much more difficult content that has been thrown at us at the same time many dungeons stayed the same (e.g. many of the DLC dungeons - vWGT, vCOS, vBF, etc)

    So as I said, disingenuous at best or deliberate straw man insertion and misleading. That isn't the common scenario of high CP players leaving and OP ought to know that. Whether it is right or wrong to do so can be debated, but the more common scenario is max cap player leaving when group has too many CP 100-200, not CP 500-689.

    Context, like in many other things in life, is KEY.

    If L33T max cap CP player Bob leaves 2 sec after joining Fungal Grotto 1, because he sees couple of CP 500'ish players- yea, I'd say a lot of reasonable players are going to say that is unreasonable. Whether labeled as 'elitism' or not, it's fair to say pretty unreasonable both because FG1 is entry level, even on vet mode, and CP 500'ish isn't exactly low.

    If average Joe player with ~20 hours or less to play ESO all week, but has been playing since Beta so is well beyond CP cap, joins a random daily that throws him into vWGT or any other DLC dungeon on vet mode with couple or all other players at CP 200 or lower, then as long as the guy exercises his freedom to go elsewhere without throwing out needless insults or potty mouth, reasonable people ought to be able to agree that is....reasonable.

    OP is conflating a number of side issues into this 'elitism' debate -

    1- whatever your CP or CP differential, how you leave a group is more important than the simple fact of leaving. If you leave and that's it, then anyone saying you should have stayed is simple entitlement syndrome. My time is not here to make your time more effective. But neither is it my place to insult, type demeaning messages, 'git gud' or 'git CP u scrub' before leaving.

    A loudmouth at low CP is still a loudmouth at high CP. Being an idiot is not CP based. If you have issues with people being 'elitist' re: CP levels, it's the idiot player, not the idiot 'high cp' player being elitist. OP is conflating being a jerk while you leave vs just the simple exercise of decision that your time could be better spent in different group.

    2- lumping in high mid to fairly high CP example as if this were the norm for 'elitists' to abandon. Just because I've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen - so no way am I saying that. But while I've seen my share of elitist jerks - of all levels - I've not yet seen a max cap player abandon a group because they think CP 500'ish is too low. Could it happen? Sure. Does it happen often? Probably not - at least not often enough you can toss it out as a case example when you make OP's elitism allegation.

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