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Why being a "CP Elitist" Makes No Sense

  • Eyesinthedrk
    Eyesinthedrk
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    The part your forgetting is that cp Xp rate scales now to compensate for the increase. So a 501 (cap when I started) is closer to vr 10 with 350 cp than they are to a the vr16 with 501 two years ago.

    Because they gain at a higher rate they are lacking exactly what op said mattered most. Experience and skill.

    That said I still always give them a chance. Because I to have found some low levels that were surprisingly good. But those are the exception. For every one of them, I’ve ran with 20 that had no clue what they were doing. Worse they had no clue that they didn’t have a clue.
  • SJD_Phoenix
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    Liley wrote: »
    I know a guy who did vMA flawless with less than 500 cp's.
    I know a tank with less than 300 cp's, doing greater than a lot of 690+ cp tanks.

    So yeah, there are people with low cp's who are very good. However, if you don't know anyone in your group, you just assume that the player with a lot of cp's knows how to play his char.
    When I'm looking for a decent player in zone chat and someone low cp whispers me, I'm willing to give them a chance if they have got at least a few certain achievments that prove that they somehow know what they are doing.

    vMA has been done flawlessly with less than 200CP.
  • Sevalaricgirl
    Sevalaricgirl
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    A very good reason why CP was a stupid idea.
    I have a Bosmer, three cats, 2 Imps, an orc, a very short high elf and my favorite vamp. I own just about every pet and mount in the game. I can officially say "I'm in deep!"
  • Iccotak
    Iccotak
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    Because in my experience 8-9 times out of 10 the 160 CP player has no business being in a Higher End Vet dungeons, like The Blessed Crucible, Elden Hollow II, City of Ash II, Ruins of Mazzatun, Cradle of Shadows, Imperial City, etc
  • Malmai
    Malmai
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    Yez
  • Ley
    Ley
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    I'm just a "filthy casual" but I can see why some players who are trying to efficiently do end game content don't want to necessarily take a chance on a relatively low CP player who may or may not pan out. It's not that all max CP players know what their doing, it's just a bit less of a gamble.

    I've been in plenty of pug groups trying to complete content where none of us knew the mechanics for and we just died constantly. I can't really blame experienced players for not wanting to have to risk holding someones hand through that kind of stuff. I do appreciate it when someone takes the time to explain a boss fight to me but don't blame them if they just leave the group after a couple wipes.

    I'm hardly selective of my group members and their CP. Still, trying to do a vet DLC dungeon and seeing that your pug group consists of 3-4 people under or around 200CP, you can assume this is probably not going to go well.

    There are always exceptions to the rule but you can generally expect a CP 690+ to out perform a sub 690 CP player.

    Leylith - MagSorc | Leyloth - StamPlar | Leynerd - MagPlar | Leylit - StamBlade | Ley Eviticus - StamDK | Leydor - MagDen | Leylum - StamSorc | Leylux - MagBlade
  • Goshua
    Goshua
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    I had a CP690 spam light bow attack in a vet dungeon. Did not know a single mechanic either. I have no idea how someone can reach 690 and not know a thing about rotation or basic mechanics. The account must have been bought or he literally got carried through grinds for months.
    ...

    its not hard, im CP 740ish and have only finished a few (ithink) of the DLC vet dungeons, maybe one normal trial

    Cadwells gold, questing in general and pvp will get you there

    Edited by Goshua on January 31, 2018 10:39PM
  • xeNNNNN
    xeNNNNN
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    CP elitism never made or makes sense.

    Purely because you can have 1000 cp and still be utterly terrible. Seeing is believing which is why you never just judge someone by the amount of CP they have.

    The only place where it remotely matters is cyro and SOME PvE content mostly vet trials and one or two vet dungeons just because of damage and survivability and with pvp its more getting a specific set up working. But even then you can still do the content I think trials really is the only place where your CP would matter to enough of an extent where it will hinder you.

    I still think people with low CP should be allowed too try though. They shouldn't be flamed away simply because their CP number is lower than X and another persons is bigger than X. Its dumb.
    Edited by xeNNNNN on February 1, 2018 1:29AM
    Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.
  • Jacozilla
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    Everyone referring to max cap CP player can be terrible, while CP 100-200 guy be great - is correct - but treating the exception as the norm.

    What is more common?

    A CP 500+ being out performed in same class role v class role comparison by CP 200'ish? Or the other way around?

    You don't have to deny the possibility and very real likelihood that -SOME- low CP players will easily out perform high CP players in order to acknowledge the general probability that there are a lot less of the former than the latter.

    The common sense middle ground -for me- would be to try a few pulls first, since will have 15min penalty anyways (unless voluntarily asking for a vote kick to avoid that penalty). So might as well use a few min of that timer to see what the group might be able to do.

    But I also acknowledge that in some dungeons, vet DLC ones in particular, the likely expectation is what will happen if (3) CP 200'ish + the one max cap player are grouped into a random daily vDLC dungeon. So if a person wants to quit right at the start, but not make a big deal about it, cast insults, etc before leaving - then the real issue is from the players expecting to be partially carried and labeling the non-insulting player who merely chose to leave as 'elitist'.

    The counter reply would be 'entitlement'.

    If I leave because of significantly low CP grouping in a vet DLC dungeon, but cast some snide comments before I go - then shame on me. But if all I do is vote with my personal time and leave - and you think I'm an elitist for doing so, then shame on you and your entitlement syndrome expecting other people to value their time less than you do yours.
  • zaria
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    Hurtfan wrote: »
    CP elite-ism does exist in PvP also. Good news is, in PvP you can get a group no problem even with low CP. But I noticed low CP toons get passed over on rezes all the time. I rez everyone regardless of CP total, I figure hey, they made it all the way to this keep with 210 CPs, they deserve a rez.

    But I agree with some of what has already been said, I've been owned by a low CP player a couple of times, I still can't wrap my mind around it ...but Kudos to them and their build. Because of this, I will group with low CP players in dungeons, and a vast majority of the time they do fine.
    CP 720 but prefer the no cp campaigns as skill levels aligns more with this one, as in extremely low.
    Saying that I understand the warden pvp nerf demands. Honestly doing an noob warden in pvp I felt like an sorcerer healer in an normal dungeon.
    Cp might be an way to separate PvP and PvE, My pvp skils are very low so I prefer no cp.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Doctordarkspawn
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    It's a side effect of the pidgeon holing design, which haunts this games endgame community. It's just another qualifier before you'll even be talked to.
  • runagate
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    Phage wrote: »
    What makes even less sense is the CP elitists that gauge player ability based on CP points earned over the CP cap.

    Having 1000 CP points doesn't make you a better player than someone with 800, 700, or only CP cap.

    Well, I suspect that's more a way of gauging how long someone's played rather than their CP since obviously it stops mattering at cap. I have 970ish CP and have played 250+ days in-game and will tell you right now that I know better players with half those stats.

    I can't conceive of pugging something unless I'm wanting to help others, though.

    Pugging is for new players who don't have friends yet, or those who can't make them. Run-ahead tanks with ADHD and stunningly low verbal skills seem pretty common in the queues.

    I loved it way back when when the queues literally didn't work. It was great. Not sure what people used to talk about on the forums back then, though. Where to get good disguises, I guess.
  • Inarre
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    Jacozilla wrote: »
    While I agree with what I think OP's general intention was, what he actually said is disingenuous at best and deliberately misleading at worst.

    Yet he mentions not at all the extremely higher scaled, and much more difficult content that has been thrown at us at the same time many dungeons stayed the same (e.g. many of the DLC dungeons - vWGT, vCOS, vBF, etc)

    I did mention dlc content in the comment above yours, but my original message was a broad one and not limited to normal, vet or dlc dungeons. It's about groups. Period. I dont find what type of content to be relevant to the message when all levels can competently run all content with a little know how. It's a black and white issue in my eyes. Who is to say cp300 is ok to do vet dlc content while cp299 is not? If we have the right to discriminate based on cp (and I have already pointed out several reasons why that's futile, but I will humor you) how and where do we draw the line? And how do we ask zos to implement it in a way that minimizes group finder grief for players?

    I'm cutting out a lot of your comment because it seems to be different ways of communicating similar ideas. This is just for keeping it simple and in no way meant to offend you.
    Jacozilla wrote: »
    1- whatever your CP or CP differential, how you leave a group is more important than the simple fact of leaving. If you leave and that's it, then anyone saying you should have stayed is simple entitlement syndrome. My time is not here to make your time more effective. But neither is it my place to insult, type demeaning messages, 'git gud' or 'git CP u scrub' before leaving.

    A loudmouth at low CP is still a loudmouth at high CP. Being an idiot is not CP based.

    While your point is relevant, and a good one, my post was actually more so about max cp members initiating vote to kick movements based on cp. I imagine this is successful in some groups and i find it unfair that low cp members are first made to feel inferior, then unwelcome and finally forced to requeue when in fact they meet the requirements to run the content.
    Jacozilla wrote: »
    2- lumping in high mid to fairly high CP example as if this were the norm for 'elitists' to abandon. Just because I've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen - so no way am I saying that. But while I've seen my share of elitist jerks - of all levels - I've not yet seen a max cap player abandon a group because they think CP 500'ish is too low. Could it happen? Sure. Does it happen often? Probably not - at least not often enough you can toss it out as a case example when you make OP's elitism allegation.

    This point is similar to your first, but I guess it is more so disregarding my experiences as uncommon, rare or even completely unfounded. Again, I have experienced specifically this, a max CP player initiating a vote to kick a cp 540 player from a simple non dlc vet dungeon not once, not twice, not three times, but 4 times in the past month. I dont even PUG dungeons every day, not even three times a week. So maybe it isn't common in your experience, but it does happen and in my experience it happens quite often. Often enough that I would risk having my perspective tossed out as "strawman" or whatever your term was to get the word out.

    Just this morning I saw someone post their concern regarding the longevity of the game if zos keeps up releasing chapters, because the paywall becomes too steep for new players. A good point, but personally I'm more concerned about the longevity of the game if we as a community continue to toss new players out of our group content because we have a higher number next to our names.

    The original post was more to emphasize the high level idea behind the behavior and why it wasnt productive. If you dont relate to my examples that is totally fine. Fact remains that it does happen, whether 500 cp, 300 or 0. And in my eyes it's no more justified at 0cp than it is at 500.
  • PlagueSD
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    My experience with CP Elitism?

    Ran a reg dungeon, (forget which one) but had a CP 500+ tank that was terrible. He kept dying and couldn't hold agro on the boss (or didn't want to) which resulted in the boss basically one-shotting whoever had agro. After a few wipes, we vote kicked him and got a level 39 tank. Completed the rest of the dungeon with ease...

    I don't care what your CP level is. As long as you know what to do (or ASK if you don't know) I won't have any issues with you.
  • Diminish
    Diminish
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    Your post almost makes me feel bad for voting to kick that 584 CP DPS that joined our vBF PUG the other night. Then I remembered him running circles around Earthgore Amalgam relentlessly spamming like attacks on his sword and board DK, and I all the sudden felt much better about my decision.

    It isn't about the CP that gets you kicked. It's about how you play. Sorry to say, if you suck, and you are dragging everyone down with you, Elitist or not... you're getting the vote. I don't care if your are CP 10 or CP 690+
  • LioraValkyrie
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    I carried a group of random cp180 or less through vCoS on my tank. It was the first run for any of them. Sure, it took a bit of time, but everyone listened to advice, got their Velidreth helm and were really excited when we finished and appreciative of my help. Awesome times.

    Forget CP, or even the quality of the player, positive experiences in game are about the quality of the person.

    P.S. anyone who really knows, knows you can do any of the vet DLC dungeons in this game with 25k GROUP dps.
    Mistress of Apocrypha - Master PetSorc

    Founder of The Lollygaggers
    Creator of the 1-bar vMA build
    World first solo vFH
    Unchained Altmer Sorc Tank

    Visit me on YouTube! Mistress of Apocrypha ESO
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Inarre wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    below 300CP vet DLC dungeons take hours to complete if at all possible. It has always been like that. I used to hate this "elitist" behavior too, but I didn't understand how CP were increasing your stats in addition to what passives you put them in to.

    I disagree with your statement.

    I was once cp300 (as we all were) and completed vet DLC dungeons. I farmed my entire SPC set doing vWGT speed runs/no deaths with CP260 back before vWGT got nerfed. I also completed vICP. I continue to complete vet DLC content with players of all levels, just the other day we did vWGT hard mode with a 126CP player. Many players have posted hard content completions with 300CP or even less, there are even 0CP runs done in VMA on youtube, which I see many players claim is the hardest content in the game (some claim in any game!).

    I wont post the whole thing here as it's long, but here is a link to a post by Asayre that explains the mathematics behind stat increases (click on the arrows):
    Asayre wrote: »
    Of course the percentage will depend on your base stats so I won't compare it, but if you translate that into a percentage using Asayre's example it is in line with my rough framework done in the original post.

    CP doesn't make or break any dungeon team in my experience, not even a vet DLC dungeon. Who you run with is your choice, just please don't submit group finder groups to your requirements if you need max CP to complete DLC content. Players with less than max CP have the right to queue using group finder without being kicked for other player's misconceptions.


    Like I said, I am not the kind of person who kicks people above 300 CP. The Imperial City dungeons aren't what they used to be anymore. I heard that people can complete them way earlier now, but never experienced it as random group finder seems to avoid those two dungeons with me. Just as a note, I did my first vWGT run at 130CP because I had a team of three friends carrying my ass. In group finder you rarely get a team that good.
    For Bloodroot forge however, I've tried more than enough with low CPs and experience tells me that almost all players below 300 CP never did the dungeon before, or only did it on normal and think "it's just the same". Probably because those who can pull sufficient numbers don't go into Group finder. Usually I still go and try it out, because I am having trouble saying no to others, but in the end they have to admit defeat at the Minotaur, because that's where the high DPS is needed. I guess the issue is not as bad when you are playing DPS yourself as half of the groups damage will be decent, but as a tank you can really just watch as they can't manage to kill one stone atronach before the next spawns and slowly die to all the tremors.
    It's unfair, it's not fun but it's how the system works with newer DLC dungeon content and Dragon Bones will just be the same.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Jpk0012
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    CP 382 pla
    PlagueSD wrote: »
    I don't care what your CP level is. As long as you know what to do (or ASK if you don't know) I won't have any issues with you.

    That's it right there.

    You know it.. or you don't. If you don't know it... you better learn to listen. If you don't know it, and you don't listen... then auto-fail.

    "Newer" Normal and Vet aren't about brute strength. They are about knowing the mechanics. This is why nWGT or vWGT is terrible. Very few people know the mechanics. Sure, I know it. But what good does that do the group? At least, two people need to know it, imo. And I have been shocked to find out maxed CP people do not know the final boss, the library, or the flaming elemental(I don't blame anyone, this boss should be ruling the world, tbh). I think you just grab the box if someone is targeted, otherwise kill adds or dps when no adds. Seems to work for me. But it involves DPS actually getting involved(lol that aint happening in PUGS).
  • Diminish
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Who kicks 561CP players?! below 300CP vet DLC dungeons take hours to complete if at all possible. It has always been like that. I used to hate this "elitist" behavior too, but I didn't understand how CP were increasing your stats in addition to what passives you put them in to. Now I understand it and explain it to low CP players whenever Dungeon finder throws me into hard vet content.

    Not true, me and a tank friend of mine (both max CP) walked a couple through vet Bloodroot Forge. We queued in group finder, and not only got that dungeon, but also were lucky enough to get 2 who have never set foot in it before... and they were both just barely over CP 300.

    We coached them and got them through it in like 35 - 45 minutes. Kicking people before giving them a chance is stupid; no matter their CP level. Give me a competent CP250 over an incompetent CP690 any day of the week.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Diminish wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Who kicks 561CP players?! below 300CP vet DLC dungeons take hours to complete if at all possible. It has always been like that. I used to hate this "elitist" behavior too, but I didn't understand how CP were increasing your stats in addition to what passives you put them in to. Now I understand it and explain it to low CP players whenever Dungeon finder throws me into hard vet content.

    Not true, me and a tank friend of mine (both max CP) walked a couple through vet Bloodroot Forge. We queued in group finder, and not only got that dungeon, but also were lucky enough to get 2 who have never set foot in it before... and they were both just barely over CP 300.

    We coached them and got them through it in like 35 - 45 minutes. Kicking people before giving them a chance is stupid; no matter their CP level. Give me a competent CP250 over an incompetent CP690 any day of the week.

    I was exaggerating. Most of the time it takes me more than two hours until we either complete it or give up when I run vBF with people below 300CP (that damn Minotaur!).
    You were pretty lucky to get two decent players with good setups then. On average however a player with >300CP will deal more damage than a player with <300CP. People are yelling "elitist" even if you try to do the dungeon with them and kindly explain why continuing with them will just be a waste of time. (To be fair, a decent amount is very understanding though).
    Kicking players at 561CP only for their CP is ridiculous though. xP
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Juju_beans
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    Aurielle wrote: »
    Number one reason why CP elitists are silly: there are PLENTY of CP 690 folks who light attack/heavy attack/Snipe spam their way through dungeons on a regular basis. I'd take a CP 300 player who has a DPS rotation over a CP 690 light attacker any day,

    LOL..probably because they spent all that leveling time at Dolmens where it doesn't matter and just running through delves (not hitting anything mind you) to get to the skyshards.

    Oh power leveling gets you to cap quickly but they missed out on learning how to play their class.
  • Kozato
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    Being an elitist of any kind makes no sense. The players carrying that toxicity around need to stop or take it away from everyone else.
    Edited by Kozato on February 1, 2018 1:42AM
  • xenowarrior92eb17_ESO
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    Git gud then. Cp is now ez af to get. I insta kick everyone below 160.

    I 2nd this... lvl 1-50 takes 4 hours and cp 10-160 takes max 8 hours so u can cap in a day if you want...yet I see people saying after all these changed made by zos to make stuff even more easier...like it wasn't before...that they want it even more easier cuz is "2 hard".. don't you want max lvl and max cp upon character creation? also get a few millions of gold and all achivs and collectibles? all shards taken/books and skills morphed...then you will complain that it takes 2 long to press "CREATE" button.
  • Runefang
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    Aurielle wrote: »
    Number one reason why CP elitists are silly: there are PLENTY of CP 690 folks who light attack/heavy attack/Snipe spam their way through dungeons on a regular basis. I'd take a CP 300 player who has a DPS rotation over a CP 690 light attacker any day,

    LOL..probably because they spent all that leveling time at Dolmens where it doesn't matter and just running through delves (not hitting anything mind you) to get to the skyshards.

    Oh power leveling gets you to cap quickly but they missed out on learning how to play their class.

    This is such garbage.

    There is only two ways to learn to play your class:
    a) actually doing hard content
    b) practising rotations on a dummy (yes this is important! if you can't do it on a dummy you'll never do it while you have a dozen mechanics to handle as well)

    Wether you power level or level slowly its irrelevant. You cannot learn to play while leveling for several reasons:
    a) Overland content is far too easy, you don't need to dodge roll, block or even shield up
    b) You don't have all your skills so you can't learn to use your real end-game build
    c) You won't have access to the hard content to learn properly

    So most people power level BECAUSE they want to learn to play their class as soon as possible. Unless you enjoy questing for the Nth time you might as well Skyreach/Dolmen to 50 or max CP.

    I guarantee that most CP690 players who just light attack haven't power leveled, they've played overland for so long they don't have a clue how to do the hard stuff.
  • Lynnessa
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    Wow, so many arguments of hyperbole without any empirical evidence.

    I'll take a no-cp player who is fun to play with (i.e., nice, interested in learning, etc) in a PuG even if we don't finish the dungeon over a 10000 CP player who's seemingly just in it to prove he's actually better at something than other people.

    It's actually better for the game to give people a chance to safely learn the dungeons (and for dungeons, knowing the dungeons is more important than anything else, I've yet to run one that can't be done in reasonable time by low-CP groups who know the fights) than it is to build oneself up by tearing others down.
    Edited by Lynnessa on February 1, 2018 2:04AM
  • xenowarrior92eb17_ESO
    xenowarrior92eb17_ESO
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    @Lynnessa 3600cp is max u can get.
  • Lynnessa
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    Who has summoned me?

    Oh. Guess I too am guilty of using hyberbole ;)
  • FloppyTouch
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    Normals I don’t care who is in the group I’m going to run right through that thing and finish it as fast as possible.

    Vet dlc dungeons I can tell right at the first pull who is the weak link and even more at the 1st boss. Most if not all the time it is a lower cp player. I won’t vote to kick I’ll leave I don’t have the gaming time to waste my day on a dungeon that I know can be cleared in 20-30 mins. I’ll just leave switch characters and go back into pvp so my gaming time is not a full waste.

    I have done a ton of pugs bc I play early morning and most guild mates are not on. In my experience with group finder every time I’m in a group with full 690+ it’s a smooth and care free run in a vet dlc. On the other hand when there is 2 Lower cp players like 300 or less 50% of the time it feels like bashing my head against the wall.

    Yes sometimes there is good low lvl cp player but the majority are not good at all. Having higher cp does mean there is less bad players, I’m sure there out there but in years of pug groups on xb I have not met any max cp players that struggle like the lower lvl players.
    Edited by FloppyTouch on February 1, 2018 3:17AM
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