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Powerlash & Searing Strike 3.3.3

  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    DDuke wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Right, but casting Frags/Assassin's Will requires resources (Power Lash doesn't). Also, while it might be accurate to say "Assassin's Will requires no resource investment", that does not hold true for Frags - it only procs from your magicka costing abilities. Whether you land them or not is irrelevant to the fact.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Isn't that how it works on Live now, you set it up with your CC (Flame Clench/Rune Cage/Scamp stun)+other burst?
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    Power Lash isn't "Backlash" or "Wrath" - it's Power Lash, a semi-spammable. If you want "Backlash" or "Wrath" equivalents in DK toolkit, look for FoO or Draw Essence.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    No you don't. Your Power Lashes cost nothing and they do not consume the Off Balance like they do on Live.

    On Live, you get a free Lash every 5-7 seconds on most of the viable builds, on PTS you get a free Lash every 3 seconds.

    It's not rocket science.


    Best part? You get those two Lashes naturally by just CC'ing the opponent on cooldown and can even refresh that 5s Off Balance duration easily if you have Talons slotted (or Tactician CP/Lightning Staff).

    Power lash IS the DK equivalent. FOO/Draw essence have none of the counter breakers extra, its just a normal AoE/projectile, just delayed, nor do they have any extra counter. A la fury. I'm not on about delayed abilities, I am on about those that work uniquely. As for how frags work, since the change its a little different, but the CC lands around a similar time as the frags hit, I don't deny its a bit lackluster of a skill, even so, it doesn't require a mandatory CC which would say to the target "roll, frag incoming." Obviously using fossilize means it is more likely to hit, since you have both CCs, so are more likely to proc and hit it if accounting for latency/reactions.

    Powerlash costing nothing is half true, because the setup does. (And I repeat, it can fail as is. If you cannot see a talons and [insert root breaker] before the FL to stop powerlash, then there is an issue. And its not just dueling, where the DK can sit on you, OW 1vX there is more ways to not be focused) And to the 2x lashes per foss. It means a lot less when you realize that it will be dodged much more commonly than before. Then you will have to use more CC+normal lashes to kill the target.

    Contrary to the others in the 15+ threads, I don't think the class is specifically any more RIP, and will continue playing it, probably landing the same amount of lashes as before, just less reliably. Its just another annoyance change that no one asked for. [Cough: Numerous roar nerfs, range on petrify, more and more exceptions to wings etc] that slowly wittle the class away further and further for OW.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    I'm going to take a wild guess and say that they mean the Flame lash that can be dodged from within talons. Technically if you have FM up and break free from foss fast enough, you won't be CC'd when the lash hits, so not set offbalance that way either.

    There are plenty of ways to counter it before hand.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Right, but casting Frags/Assassin's Will requires resources (Power Lash doesn't). Also, while it might be accurate to say "Assassin's Will requires no resource investment", that does not hold true for Frags - it only procs from your magicka costing abilities. Whether you land them or not is irrelevant to the fact.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Isn't that how it works on Live now, you set it up with your CC (Flame Clench/Rune Cage/Scamp stun)+other burst?
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    Power Lash isn't "Backlash" or "Wrath" - it's Power Lash, a semi-spammable. If you want "Backlash" or "Wrath" equivalents in DK toolkit, look for FoO or Draw Essence.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    No you don't. Your Power Lashes cost nothing and they do not consume the Off Balance like they do on Live.

    On Live, you get a free Lash every 5-7 seconds on most of the viable builds, on PTS you get a free Lash every 3 seconds.

    It's not rocket science.


    Best part? You get those two Lashes naturally by just CC'ing the opponent on cooldown and can even refresh that 5s Off Balance duration easily if you have Talons slotted (or Tactician CP/Lightning Staff).

    Power lash IS the DK equivalent. FOO/Draw essence have none of the counter breakers extra, its just a normal AoE/projectile, just delayed, nor do they have any extra counter. A la fury. I'm not on about delayed abilities, I am on about those that work uniquely.

    There's a whole bunch of abilities that "work uniquely", doesn't mean they have to go against common rulesets on skills.
    We’ve updated several abilities so they better adhere to our block and dodge mechanics. The system is set up to be intuitive – attacks on the ground such as fire or Caltrops cannot be blocked or dodged. We also want dodging to be useful during some instances, and blocking to be useful at other times. The ruleset is as follows:
    Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
    AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
    Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
    Attacks that cannot be blocked or dodged
    Damage on the ground such as Wall of Elements, Caltrops, or Lightning Splash.
    Effects that are on or inside a player character, such as Daedric Curse, or Backlash. (Damage over time effects)
    Attacks that can be dodged, but not blocked
    Secondary effects that penetrate Block such as the Damage over Time from Sunfire, the surprise attack armor debuff, or the snare from Low Slash snare.
    Note: Block continues to provide stun immunity, so it will stop a secondary effect like the stun from Stonefist.
    Exceptions to these rules will be stated each ability’s tooltip, such as Fiery Grip which cannot be dodged or reflected.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    As for how frags work, since the change its a little different, but the CC lands around a similar time as the frags hit, I don't deny its a bit lackluster of a skill, even so, it doesn't require a mandatory CC which would say to the target "roll, frag incoming." Obviously using fossilize means it is more likely to hit, since you have both CCs, so are more likely to proc and hit it if accounting for latency/reactions.

    You don't need to use the Power Lash immediately, use another skill instead & watch the opponent waste his dodge roll and then use Power Lash.
    Note: this is pretty much only vs medium armor builds, other builds cannot afford dodging every 3 seconds.

    Just like how good sorcs time their frags properly with other burst and don't just throw them out whenever they're off cooldown.


    I'd be happy to show how it works on PTS.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Powerlash costing nothing is half true, because the setup does. (And I repeat, it can fail as is. If you cannot see a talons and [insert root breaker] before the FL to stop powerlash, then there is an issue. And its not just dueling, where the DK can sit on you, OW 1vX there is more ways to not be focused)

    Every rotation costs magicka/stamina.

    But if your rotation involves more free Power Lashes than before, then your sustain will be better because the average magicka/second you spend is less than it'd be if you used a free cost ability only every 5-7 seconds.

    Not.Rocket.Science.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    And to the 2x lashes per foss. It means a lot less when you realize that it will be dodged much more commonly than before. Then you will have to use more CC+normal lashes to kill the target.

    Yes, god forbid those dodge roll builds live longer than 5 seconds.

    Why do you think they're making these changes to undodgeable abilities like Power Lash & Birds??
    Don't answer, the question was purely rhetorical.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Contrary to the others in the 15+ threads, I don't think the class is specifically any more RIP, and will continue playing it, probably landing the same amount of lashes as before, just less reliably. Its just another annoyance change that no one asked for. [Cough: Numerous roar nerfs, range on petrify, more and more exceptions to wings etc] that slowly wittle the class away further and further for OW.

    No, it's not "RIP" as the clueless [snip] are saying - it's buffed against most other builds in PvP and yes, I'm also landing around the same amount of lashes as before - vs dodge rollers (some miss every now & then giving them a respite & chance to survive another 5 seconds). I'm landing them twice as often vs other builds on PTS.
    Sustain vs all builds is better thanks to the extra Power Lashes.

    And you say no one asked for Power Lash to be dodgeable... have you read the forums lately? People have been complaining about undodgeable bs & medium armor being garbage for almost a year now.
    Edited by DDuke on February 6, 2018 1:11AM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    I'm going to take a wild guess and say that they mean the Flame lash that can be dodged from within talons. Technically if you have FM up and break free from foss fast enough, you won't be CC'd when the lash hits, so not set offbalance that way either.

    There are plenty of ways to counter it before hand.

    So they meant to only provide half the facts? If the game works on global cooldowns, how does one break free from fossilize before the DK hits with a flame Lash? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the DK was slow? So I'd have to run 2H and cast forward Momentum every 8 seconds to avoid Fossilize-Power-lash?

    If you and other DKs want to say "Yeah but" and justify why DK mechanics should break the normal patterns of combat, then by all means knock yourselves out. For all the good it did other classes.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack [snip] with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.

    [Edited to remove profanity]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 7, 2018 2:05PM
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    I'm going to take a wild guess and say that they mean the Flame lash that can be dodged from within talons. Technically if you have FM up and break free from foss fast enough, you won't be CC'd when the lash hits, so not set offbalance that way either.

    There are plenty of ways to counter it before hand.

    So they meant to only provide half the facts? If the game works on global cooldowns, how does one break free from fossilize before the DK hits with a flame Lash? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the DK was slow? So I'd have to run 2H and cast forward Momentum every 8 seconds to avoid Fossilize-Power-lash?

    If you and other DKs want to say "Yeah but" and justify why DK mechanics should break the normal patterns of combat, then by all means knock yourselves out. For all the good it did other classes.

    ?
    Depending on latency you can break from CC before they can hit you. Within the 1s (ish) I'm not quite sure what their gcd has to do with breaking free.

    That is just one way every 8s. Talons being the more common way since it is every 2s. But that can easily be countered as said before.

    It's not going to be reverted. ZOS never does. But as for breaking the normal pattern of combat, there are so many abilities that don't fit mechanically with others. Take sleet storm vs destro ult, one is blockable and one isn't. IMO as long as something has sufficient counters to make up for the one it ignores, (shalk being an example) it's fine.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • CaliMade
    CaliMade
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    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack [snip] with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.

    [Edited for quote]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 7, 2018 2:06PM
    XB1 GT- Cali Made


    Praetorian Stam DK Redguard

    Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard

    Major Mag DK Dark Elf

    lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
  • CaliMade
    CaliMade
    ✭✭✭✭
    I HATE MY PHONE.

    the whole first response to @DDuke was supposed to be deleted but i guess not anymore
    Edited by CaliMade on February 6, 2018 3:20AM
    XB1 GT- Cali Made


    Praetorian Stam DK Redguard

    Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard

    Major Mag DK Dark Elf

    lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack [snip] with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.

    You can very easily stop it procing before. If I get talons on me I would mist. And I have given you the other examples, try them. No cc = no powerlash. Unless ls Meme building, (fair but rare, it can be moved out of I suppose. This build is dead though) interrupted or for some reason the mdk is running tactician.

    I also never said it "cant ever set people off balance" just that it is possible to stop it without adding another area.

    Whereas you can dodge someone's frags, but they cannot stop you from getting frags up.

    The cool down complaint are pve mainly, except for ls builds.. If they changed nothing but the times it'd be a buff. How exactly did you get to "proccing it every 1s.

    [Edited for quote]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 7, 2018 2:06PM
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good. If you react late then by definition, you will get hit by a power lash because you didnt play good. Its really not a hard concept.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.
    Edited by pieratsos on February 6, 2018 3:27AM
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Exactly. It's rewarding those who miss the first two counters to your traditional setup.

    After patch I will still land powerlash against megabads, and slow builds, but to reliably land one against a semi competent stam build I will have to use Foss, the power of latency and hope they don't have fm up.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Exactly. It's rewarding those who miss the first two counters to your traditional setup.

    After patch I will still land powerlash against megabads, and slow builds, but to reliably land one against a semi competent stam build I will have to use Foss, the power of latency and hope they don't have fm up.

    Good. Now you have to play like every other class and use ur ability in combos. That was exactly the point.
  • CaliMade
    CaliMade
    ✭✭✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”
    Edited by CaliMade on February 6, 2018 3:40AM
    XB1 GT- Cali Made


    Praetorian Stam DK Redguard

    Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard

    Major Mag DK Dark Elf

    lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.

    You can very easily stop it procing before. If I get talons on me I would mist. And I have given you the other examples, try them. No cc = no powerlash. Unless ls Meme building, (fair but rare, it can be moved out of I suppose. This build is dead though) interrupted or for some reason the mdk is running tactician.

    I also never said it "cant ever set people off balance" just that it is possible to stop it without adding another area.

    Whereas you can dodge someone's frags, but they cannot stop you from getting frags up.

    The cool down complaint are pve mainly, except for ls builds.. If they changed nothing but the times it'd be a buff. How exactly did you get to "proccing it every 1s.

    Because on live power lash consumes off balance. For the cooldown to be considered a nerf then you would have to set people off balance prety much every second. This is only the case in PVE. You basically admitted that so you also basically admitted that the 3s cooldown is actually a buff and not a nerf. Power lash also has a CC now which is possibly a big buff for OW (trust me, i know how good it is to have a cc attached to a high dmg ability) and potentially opening up new builds with chains instead of fossilize so you can constantly stay on top of people and keep them in talons which will constantly proc even more power lashes.

    But just stop for a second and think. If you can very easily stop it before the proc then it means you can also do that very easily now. There is literally nothing changing but somehow all of a sudden after the patch you wont proc it? It doesnt even make any sense. And all this non sense about constant dodge rolling is only for high regen medium armor builds. Everyone else simply cant dodge roll that much. Its like you intentionally want to hard counter anyone in medium for no reason.

    And it doesnt matter if ur frag can proc. Its still wont do anything without a cc combo. Its the same concept. Again if you dont like the fact that it procs on off balance feel free and suggest a change for that. But there is just no reason for power lash to be undodgeable.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”

    Yes, block is also a counter for prety much everything you know. Not exclusive to power lash.
    And they are the same. Like frags and spectral bow you know. There is really no point having this conversation with you. It seems like you will never be happy unless you can land power lashes on everyone without them being able to do anything.
  • CaliMade
    CaliMade
    ✭✭✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”

    Yes, block is also a counter for prety much everything you know. Not exclusive to power lash.
    And they are the same. Like frags and spectral bow you know. There is really no point having this conversation with you. It seems like you will never be happy unless you can land power lashes on everyone without them being able to do anything.

    I just listed like 4 different counters already in effect, how is that not being able to do anything?

    As ive said before , by all means make it dodgeable, just give Dk something to compensate. Like a powerlash that procs of the actual cc not the follow up flame lash.

    I wouldnt be bothered if OW Dk didnt depend on this skill landing, but it does.


    It is not the same as spectral nor frag. as Nbs Doesnt need Spectral bow to survive in open world. And sorcs are just on the other side of the graveyard with thier wet noodle attack we call procced frags. But landing frags in pvp doesnt boost thier surviability outside of the obvious KOBK.

    I want you to test somthing.

    Go into PVP solo and play mag dk with powerlash. For like 2-3 days

    Then go into PVP solo and play mag Dk with molten whip on the exact same build and tell me how that works out for your survivability.

    Sorcs and NBs dont need to land frags or spectrals to stay alive.








    XB1 GT- Cali Made


    Praetorian Stam DK Redguard

    Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard

    Major Mag DK Dark Elf

    lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
  • FloppyTouch
    FloppyTouch
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Derra wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Dueling should have no place on the discussion table when talking about balance period. This is not mortal combat.

    Dueling/1v1 should have as much place in a discussion as battleground builds and cyrodiil pvp. All of them are from ZOS aknowledged forms of pvp by now.

    Otherwise you can dismiss most arguments to balance with the argument of more people balancing things out or making microbalancing irrelevant.

    I disagree a class preforming well is duels should not be the benchmark for nerfs. Duels are a fun activity to do with friends or to learn ur burst rotation. Having duels be a part of the discussion only leads to unnecessary nerfs and effects a class further in group play.

    PvP even battlegrounds is mainly group play not 1v1. I love dueling but would never consider it a way on how a class is OP or underperforming.

    To add to this some classes like nb are a stealth class made for catching people off guard and ganking them. They don’t do so well in a duel bc ur taking away some of the strongest aspects of the class. Duels also remove some of the items and tactics used in open world like immovable pots and LoS. Duels also use builds that most would not use in a group play environment like full burst build with little recovery or sets that might be great 1v1 but are terrible in open world.

    We have many forms of pvp but the main is group play open world pvp and that’s what classes should be balance around.

    Well i disagree completely - bc quite frankly said if someone is somewhat adapt in build and theorycrafting nothing keeps them from putting the mechanics that overperform in duels into smallgrp play practice.
    Sometimes that even makes matters worse (sometimes not - my personal feeling is that problematic defense is less problematic in grps while problematic offense is even more so in a grp setting).

    Having undodgeable whip, embers, birbs, nb finisher and whatnot was simply bad for anything ranging up to 6ppl grps - at that point it gets arguably irrelevant.

    Mind you i don´t think the game should be balanced around duels nor should classes power solely assessed based on duels. But neither do i think 1v1 performance should be completely ignored.
    In that regard I just think dueling gives a very strong insight on mechanics that overperform in these 1v1 scenarios - that happen a lot
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Exactly. It's rewarding those who miss the first two counters to your traditional setup.

    After patch I will still land powerlash against megabads, and slow builds, but to reliably land one against a semi competent stam build I will have to use Foss, the power of latency and hope they don't have fm up.

    Good. Now you have to play like every other class and use ur ability in combos. That was exactly the point.

    Minus the crazy burst other classes have and execution ability other classes have along with the insane cost of our abilities that other classes don’t have. Yes we are very much even now... wait
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    Probably I’ll get pitchforked again - but I still find it funny that the only form of counterplay the DK majority wants to allow is essentially “don’t go near me”.

    Edit:
    And sorcs are just on the other side of the graveyard with thier wet noodle attack we call procced frags

    That’s accurate though.
    Edited by Feanor on February 6, 2018 8:09AM
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • Passifest
    Passifest
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    The changes are not the end of the world from a pvp perspective. The average mdk will do better vs non-dodge rollers and worse vs dodge rollers. This 4 second heal thing sounds like a bug so I wouldn't factor that in. Maybe it is a bug fix and the passive was supposed to effect the heal in the first place :D? Pvp wise besides from dodge rollers the only negative impact will be to people using lighting staff builds which I do so I am mad about the changes.

    Really though who wanted these changes? I feel like originally the change to powerlash was to "buff" mdk in pve and then once they realized it imbalanced pvp heavily they nerfed it nerfing both pve and pvp players. I didn't think this was supposed to be a balance update but these off balance changes will have a sweeping effect on the entire game. I'm no pver but who the hell wants to time *** around a 5 second window which they can't really control? If it were up to me I would revert all the off balance changes as I do not see a reason for the change other than to make life more difficult and buff dodge rollers.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    CaliMade wrote: »

    I just listed like 4 different counters already in effect, how is that not being able to do anything?

    This is why i told you that there is no point having this conversation with you. Cause you actually believe that only power lash has counters. Block, dodge, counter cc, mist form, cloak are counters for prety much everything. If we go at range abilities like frags and spectral bow and any other projectile for that matter then they can also be reflected and absorbed. Frags also have visual cues indicating when the frag is rdy. I just listed abilities with 4-8 different counters. Some of them also help with survivability like swallow soul. According to you all of them should be undodgeable. Why not make them go through block while we are at it. Can you comprehend how ridiculously dumb that sounds? Power lash is not the black ship of the game. Its just another ability. And if we are being honest, it is one of the most overloaded abilities in the game.
    CaliMade wrote: »

    As ive said before , by all means make it dodgeable, just give Dk something to compensate. Like a powerlash that procs of the actual cc not the follow up flame lash.

    I wouldnt be bothered if OW Dk didnt depend on this skill landing, but it does.


    It is not the same as spectral nor frag. as Nbs Doesnt need Spectral bow to survive in open world. And sorcs are just on the other side of the graveyard with thier wet noodle attack we call procced frags. But landing frags in pvp doesnt boost thier surviability outside of the obvious KOBK.

    I want you to test somthing.

    Go into PVP solo and play mag dk with powerlash. For like 2-3 days

    Then go into PVP solo and play mag Dk with molten whip on the exact same build and tell me how that works out for your survivability.

    Sorcs and NBs dont need to land frags or spectrals to stay alive.

    Now you are just going all over the place and started listing class issues to excuse power lash being undodgeable. This is also stupid. For starters, who says that i dont play mDK? You are just assuming that anyone who doesnt simply say "buff DK" is a DK "hater" who doesnt play the class. Also an indicator of ur bias. I dont consider the class perfect and imo it does have issues. That doesnt mean that abilities should start ignoring mechanics. If the class lacks passive healing embers could be reworked into a hot instead of a burst heal. This way if you apply it on multiple people then you have a ton of incoming healing. Wings also need a buff.

    Point is, if a class has issues then by all means suggest buffs/changes to help fixing those issues. But not with abilities ignoring mechanics and basic rulesets that were implemented to have some sort of balance.
  • FlamingBeard
    FlamingBeard
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”

    Yes, block is also a counter for prety much everything you know. Not exclusive to power lash.
    And they are the same. Like frags and spectral bow you know. There is really no point having this conversation with you. It seems like you will never be happy unless you can land power lashes on everyone without them being able to do anything.

    You could already dodge Flame Lash, dodge out of roots, use immovable potions to prevent Fossilize or other hard CCs, and prevent yourself from being set Off-Balance in the first place...

    And since Power Lash is now dodgeable, why should it also get a 3 second cooldown?

    There was no apparent reason to tack both of those changes onto Power Lash, especially an arbitrary cooldown.

    As I keep having to repeat over and over, Power Lash had plenty of available counterplay before, and simply making it dodgeable would have been fine.

    But then they added a cooldown, immediately making Off-Balance builds (legitimate builds on Live currently, referred to as "meme builds" by duke, even though it's a way of building for high damage with very little survivability since it uses Lightning staff instead of Restoration staff, but now magDK doesn't even have that option anymore, it's simply erased from being worth using now lol...)
  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”

    Yes, block is also a counter for prety much everything you know. Not exclusive to power lash.
    And they are the same. Like frags and spectral bow you know. There is really no point having this conversation with you. It seems like you will never be happy unless you can land power lashes on everyone without them being able to do anything.

    You could already dodge Flame Lash, dodge out of roots, use immovable potions to prevent Fossilize or other hard CCs, and prevent yourself from being set Off-Balance in the first place...

    And since Power Lash is now dodgeable, why should it also get a 3 second cooldown?

    There was no apparent reason to tack both of those changes onto Power Lash, especially an arbitrary cooldown.

    As I keep having to repeat over and over, Power Lash had plenty of available counterplay before, and simply making it dodgeable would have been fine.

    But then they added a cooldown, immediately making Off-Balance builds (legitimate builds on Live currently, referred to as "meme builds" by duke, even though it's a way of building for high damage with very little survivability since it uses Lightning staff instead of Restoration staff, but now magDK doesn't even have that option anymore, it's simply erased from being worth using now lol...)

    Since you care about mag Dks losing a currently viable build, did you also care about stambuilds when 4 out of 5 classes basically lost the option to play in medium armor with a bow because they get "erased" by more and more undodgeable nonsense?
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”

    Yes, block is also a counter for prety much everything you know. Not exclusive to power lash.
    And they are the same. Like frags and spectral bow you know. There is really no point having this conversation with you. It seems like you will never be happy unless you can land power lashes on everyone without them being able to do anything.

    You could already dodge Flame Lash, dodge out of roots, use immovable potions to prevent Fossilize or other hard CCs, and prevent yourself from being set Off-Balance in the first place...

    And since Power Lash is now dodgeable, why should it also get a 3 second cooldown?

    There was no apparent reason to tack both of those changes onto Power Lash, especially an arbitrary cooldown.

    As I keep having to repeat over and over, Power Lash had plenty of available counterplay before, and simply making it dodgeable would have been fine.

    But then they added a cooldown, immediately making Off-Balance builds (legitimate builds on Live currently, referred to as "meme builds" by duke, even though it's a way of building for high damage with very little survivability since it uses Lightning staff instead of Restoration staff, but now magDK doesn't even have that option anymore, it's simply erased from being worth using now lol...)

    Since you care about mag Dks losing a currently viable build, did you also care about stambuilds when 4 out of 5 classes basically lost the option to play in medium armor with a bow because they get "erased" by more and more undodgeable nonsense?

    Counter breakers are bad unless they themselves have a counter or.other limit. I.e. Shalk or pl. Something like chains, embers, bird are things that deserved it.

    If we are making abilities that can already be countered with dodge (the talons and the lash) then dodgeable again then we might as well make everything dodgeable.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • FlamingBeard
    FlamingBeard
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack sh*t with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”

    Yes, block is also a counter for prety much everything you know. Not exclusive to power lash.
    And they are the same. Like frags and spectral bow you know. There is really no point having this conversation with you. It seems like you will never be happy unless you can land power lashes on everyone without them being able to do anything.

    You could already dodge Flame Lash, dodge out of roots, use immovable potions to prevent Fossilize or other hard CCs, and prevent yourself from being set Off-Balance in the first place...

    And since Power Lash is now dodgeable, why should it also get a 3 second cooldown?

    There was no apparent reason to tack both of those changes onto Power Lash, especially an arbitrary cooldown.

    As I keep having to repeat over and over, Power Lash had plenty of available counterplay before, and simply making it dodgeable would have been fine.

    But then they added a cooldown, immediately making Off-Balance builds (legitimate builds on Live currently, referred to as "meme builds" by duke, even though it's a way of building for high damage with very little survivability since it uses Lightning staff instead of Restoration staff, but now magDK doesn't even have that option anymore, it's simply erased from being worth using now lol...)

    Since you care about mag Dks losing a currently viable build, did you also care about stambuilds when 4 out of 5 classes basically lost the option to play in medium armor with a bow because they get "erased" by more and more undodgeable nonsense?

    Forward Momentum from Two-Hander together with immovability potions gives you the ability to completely prevent all methods of magDK's class skills being able to set you off-balance and then wear Troll King to completely out-heal the DK's non-off-balance damage and defile them with poisons, then shred the magDK to bits if they aren't using a restoration staff, and even then they can only hope for Light's Champion to pop up right when they need it.

    So while I do care about the viability of all playstyles, medium builds have plenty of options when it comes to countering melee-ranged, single target, high-risk burst from magDKs without there being an arbitrary 3 second cooldown on one of magDK's quintessential burst techniques which already had multiple countermeasures in place, let alone now being dodgeable.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack [snip] with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”

    Yes, block is also a counter for prety much everything you know. Not exclusive to power lash.
    And they are the same. Like frags and spectral bow you know. There is really no point having this conversation with you. It seems like you will never be happy unless you can land power lashes on everyone without them being able to do anything.

    You could already dodge Flame Lash, dodge out of roots, use immovable potions to prevent Fossilize or other hard CCs, and prevent yourself from being set Off-Balance in the first place...

    And since Power Lash is now dodgeable, why should it also get a 3 second cooldown?

    There was no apparent reason to tack both of those changes onto Power Lash, especially an arbitrary cooldown.

    As I keep having to repeat over and over, Power Lash had plenty of available counterplay before, and simply making it dodgeable would have been fine.

    But then they added a cooldown, immediately making Off-Balance builds (legitimate builds on Live currently, referred to as "meme builds" by duke, even though it's a way of building for high damage with very little survivability since it uses Lightning staff instead of Restoration staff, but now magDK doesn't even have that option anymore, it's simply erased from being worth using now lol...)



    Power lash has a cooldown because power lash spam would be beyond broken. You would actually know this if you were doing any kind of PVP. So stop with these stupid comments. You cant break PVP because PVE mDKs have issues.

    Power lash became dodgeable and now all of a sudden power lash is very hard to proc with a lot of counters. The irony is that all those counters you mentioned already exist on live. That would mean that you dont proc power lash already. But when the cooldown was announced suddenly all of you are playing power lash spam builds setting people off balance every second, 3 seconds is a big nerf and you are getting mad at people calling them meme builds. You are just cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed. There is so much bias that is actually tragic.

    You will never be happy unless you can spam undodgeable power lashes on everyone. According to you mDK will only be balanced when you can automatically delete everyone who even gets close to you.

    [Edited for quote]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 7, 2018 2:10PM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack [snip] with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”

    Yes, block is also a counter for prety much everything you know. Not exclusive to power lash.
    And they are the same. Like frags and spectral bow you know. There is really no point having this conversation with you. It seems like you will never be happy unless you can land power lashes on everyone without them being able to do anything.

    You could already dodge Flame Lash, dodge out of roots, use immovable potions to prevent Fossilize or other hard CCs, and prevent yourself from being set Off-Balance in the first place...

    And since Power Lash is now dodgeable, why should it also get a 3 second cooldown?

    There was no apparent reason to tack both of those changes onto Power Lash, especially an arbitrary cooldown.

    As I keep having to repeat over and over, Power Lash had plenty of available counterplay before, and simply making it dodgeable would have been fine.

    But then they added a cooldown, immediately making Off-Balance builds (legitimate builds on Live currently, referred to as "meme builds" by duke, even though it's a way of building for high damage with very little survivability since it uses Lightning staff instead of Restoration staff, but now magDK doesn't even have that option anymore, it's simply erased from being worth using now lol...)

    Since you care about mag Dks losing a currently viable build, did you also care about stambuilds when 4 out of 5 classes basically lost the option to play in medium armor with a bow because they get "erased" by more and more undodgeable nonsense?

    Counter breakers are bad unless they themselves have a counter or.other limit. I.e. Shalk or pl. Something like chains, embers, bird are things that deserved it.

    If we are making abilities that can already be countered with dodge (the talons and the lash) then dodgeable again then we might as well make everything dodgeable.

    All single target non channel instant cast abilities are already dodgeable. And talons is not dodgeable. Its AOE. You roll out of it after you get hit but the ability itself is not dodgeable. It seems like you have trouble distinguishing different types of abilities and the rulesets that were designed for them and instead you are just creating your own rulesets based on what you personally believe its fair.

    [Edited for quote]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 7, 2018 2:07PM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack [snip] with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”

    Yes, block is also a counter for prety much everything you know. Not exclusive to power lash.
    And they are the same. Like frags and spectral bow you know. There is really no point having this conversation with you. It seems like you will never be happy unless you can land power lashes on everyone without them being able to do anything.

    You could already dodge Flame Lash, dodge out of roots, use immovable potions to prevent Fossilize or other hard CCs, and prevent yourself from being set Off-Balance in the first place...

    And since Power Lash is now dodgeable, why should it also get a 3 second cooldown?

    There was no apparent reason to tack both of those changes onto Power Lash, especially an arbitrary cooldown.

    As I keep having to repeat over and over, Power Lash had plenty of available counterplay before, and simply making it dodgeable would have been fine.

    But then they added a cooldown, immediately making Off-Balance builds (legitimate builds on Live currently, referred to as "meme builds" by duke, even though it's a way of building for high damage with very little survivability since it uses Lightning staff instead of Restoration staff, but now magDK doesn't even have that option anymore, it's simply erased from being worth using now lol...)

    Since you care about mag Dks losing a currently viable build, did you also care about stambuilds when 4 out of 5 classes basically lost the option to play in medium armor with a bow because they get "erased" by more and more undodgeable nonsense?

    Forward Momentum from Two-Hander together with immovability potions gives you the ability to completely prevent all methods of magDK's class skills being able to set you off-balance and then wear Troll King to completely out-heal the DK's non-off-balance damage and defile them with poisons, then shred the magDK to bits if they aren't using a restoration staff, and even then they can only hope for Light's Champion to pop up right when they need it.

    So while I do care about the viability of all playstyles, medium builds have plenty of options when it comes to countering melee-ranged, single target, high-risk burst from magDKs without there being an arbitrary 3 second cooldown on one of magDK's quintessential burst techniques which already had multiple countermeasures in place, let alone now being dodgeable.

    A medium armor dodge build without rally will get deleted by any semi decent mDK in seconds by just putting a couple of dots on him. You literally dont even need flame lash or power lash.

    [Edited for quote]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 7, 2018 2:07PM
  • FlamingBeard
    FlamingBeard
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack [snip] with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”

    Yes, block is also a counter for prety much everything you know. Not exclusive to power lash.
    And they are the same. Like frags and spectral bow you know. There is really no point having this conversation with you. It seems like you will never be happy unless you can land power lashes on everyone without them being able to do anything.

    You could already dodge Flame Lash, dodge out of roots, use immovable potions to prevent Fossilize or other hard CCs, and prevent yourself from being set Off-Balance in the first place...

    And since Power Lash is now dodgeable, why should it also get a 3 second cooldown?

    There was no apparent reason to tack both of those changes onto Power Lash, especially an arbitrary cooldown.

    As I keep having to repeat over and over, Power Lash had plenty of available counterplay before, and simply making it dodgeable would have been fine.

    But then they added a cooldown, immediately making Off-Balance builds (legitimate builds on Live currently, referred to as "meme builds" by duke, even though it's a way of building for high damage with very little survivability since it uses Lightning staff instead of Restoration staff, but now magDK doesn't even have that option anymore, it's simply erased from being worth using now lol...)



    Power lash has a cooldown because power lash spam would be beyond broken. You would actually know this if you were doing any kind of PVP. So stop with these stupid comments. You cant break PVP because PVE mDKs have issues.

    Power lash became dodgeable and now all of a sudden power lash is very hard to proc with a lot of counters. The irony is that all those counters you mentioned already exist on live. That would mean that you dont proc power lash already. But when the cooldown was announced suddenly all of you are playing power lash spam builds setting people off balance every second, 3 seconds is a big nerf and you are getting mad at people calling them meme builds. You are just cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed. There is so much bias that is actually tragic.

    You will never be happy unless you can spam undodgeable power lashes on everyone. According to you mDK will only be balanced when you can automatically delete everyone who even gets close to you.

    I don't play a magDK, as I've also mentioned countless times before.

    I know many amazing players who do, and I have fought them many, many times.

    They have to build for activating Off-Balance more often if they want more Power Lashes by using a Lightning staff.

    That build type was just made completely obsolete and pointless, due to the cooldown.

    You have no clue about the things of which you speak other than repeating the same "DK deserves to be nerfed because they keep killing me and that makes me sad :(" drivel you persistently vomit into this thread.

    [Edited for quote]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 7, 2018 2:06PM
  • CaliMade
    CaliMade
    ✭✭✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »

    I just listed like 4 different counters already in effect, how is that not being able to do anything?

    This is why i told you that there is no point having this conversation with you. Cause you actually believe that only power lash has counters. Block, dodge, counter cc, mist form, cloak are counters for prety much everything. If we go at range abilities like frags and spectral bow and any other projectile for that matter then they can also be reflected and absorbed. Frags also have visual cues indicating when the frag is rdy. I just listed abilities with 4-8 different counters. Some of them also help with survivability like swallow soul. According to you all of them should be undodgeable. Why not make them go through block while we are at it. Can you comprehend how ridiculously dumb that sounds? Power lash is not the black ship of the game. Its just another ability. And if we are being honest, it is one of the most overloaded abilities in the game.
    CaliMade wrote: »

    As ive said before , by all means make it dodgeable, just give Dk something to compensate. Like a powerlash that procs of the actual cc not the follow up flame lash.

    I wouldnt be bothered if OW Dk didnt depend on this skill landing, but it does.


    It is not the same as spectral nor frag. as Nbs Doesnt need Spectral bow to survive in open world. And sorcs are just on the other side of the graveyard with thier wet noodle attack we call procced frags. But landing frags in pvp doesnt boost thier surviability outside of the obvious KOBK.

    I want you to test somthing.

    Go into PVP solo and play mag dk with powerlash. For like 2-3 days

    Then go into PVP solo and play mag Dk with molten whip on the exact same build and tell me how that works out for your survivability.

    Sorcs and NBs dont need to land frags or spectrals to stay alive.

    Now you are just going all over the place and started listing class issues to excuse power lash being undodgeable. This is also stupid. For starters, who says that i dont play mDK? You are just assuming that anyone who doesnt simply say "buff DK" is a DK "hater" who doesnt play the class. Also an indicator of ur bias. I dont consider the class perfect and imo it does have issues. That doesnt mean that abilities should start ignoring mechanics. If the class lacks passive healing embers could be reworked into a hot instead of a burst heal. This way if you apply it on multiple people then you have a ton of incoming healing. Wings also need a buff.

    Point is, if a class has issues then by all means suggest buffs/changes to help fixing those issues. But not with abilities ignoring mechanics and basic rulesets that were implemented to have some sort of balance.


    So because the counters I listed were strong counters to pretty much everything that means power lash needs an extra one?

    Stop comparing Power lash to abilities that can be cast every single second.

    It is not the same.

    If i had to first land a swallow soul on a CC’d target then swallow soul once again to access its heal then YES the later procced swallow soul can be undodgeable. Yet even then, the night blade doesnt need that to survive and sustain. So theres an argument here.


    As far as that “game mechanics” argument you lean on. Power lash can be countered as ive listed the counters over and over again. Just because they counter other things to doesnt mean they arent valid counters. Power lash is “technically” instant cast. It cannot be lumped in with other instant cast abilities. Its the “Y” in “ A E I O & U”. It doest fit in the same box as other instant cast abilities so it should have its mechanics ajdjusted to adhere to is uniqueness. One option is to make it undodgeable, another it to have it Instant cast from an actual CC. The latter hurts PVE DK even more. To have it dodgeable after it offers a valid amout of counters will make it like the other abilities in this game with too many counters, not worth the trouble. Not worth the trouble is actually a trend in DK skills

    Dragons blood
    Wings
    Igneous sheild
    Molten whip
    Magma shell

    All abilities that on paper sound solid,
    until you use them.


    And if you wanna be on the same side as @DDuke and say “ throw extra abilities in between just to get it to land” then its most clearly a nerf at that point because you are wasting more resources to get what you could now with less.

    If and ability has multiple ways to be denied already and you need on more, thats a personal problem.
    XB1 GT- Cali Made


    Praetorian Stam DK Redguard

    Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard

    Major Mag DK Dark Elf

    lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
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