paulsimonps wrote: »

Going against the meta just to go against the meta... Well yea, you can do it, I mean I did say there was a difference between clearing content and doing so as best and fast as possible. But you do know that by doing so you are also preventing everyone in your group from achieving their max potential right? Which is probably why most won't let you go in with just any set up in Trials. Doing it differently "just cause" sounds like a bad idea, but you do you. I mean I guess it can be fun, but I don't see the appeal in choosing a play style that instead of boost your abilities, diminishes you abilities.

Also Max Stamina will not save you from running out of stamina on long boss fights. Max Stamina does not increase the amount of resources gained from Heavy Attacks, Constitution, Helping Hand, Battle Roar, Potions, Shards or Orbs. These are the things that matter, sure you get slightly more from Undaunted Command but that won't make or break your blocking. Learning when to drop block and to use your abilities at the right time and not to early is the way to achieve great stamina sustain. Your stamina gives you a bigger buffer to work with and can help in some situations, and obviously to little stamina is a thing, but one should not be trying to push every little bit of stamina they can out of their gear and skill choices in the hopes of making it easier to perma block.

Personally won't be getting any more stamina than I already have, think I am gonna be just fine. A bit of a transition period for sure with how long my stamina will last but with more reliable synergies and knowing when to drop block, I won't have to change much if anything.

One never said I was against the meta I do not play the meta cause it offers me nothing I want to play. As for everything else I am only here to offer ideas nothing more if you do not like my choice in what I play go find like minded people to play with.

As for the rest of your comment do you all have to keep pushing this idea I do not know the meta cause repeating the same stuff is not going to change my idea of the game its making you look like a bully forcing me into something I do not want to do. And here again lies the problem with every end game meta player and none meta player so can we just stop and let this go and get back on topic of how to make the block cost work.

So you know I did test it and with a 23k stam I was able to hold the block down and still do all the things listed above and was fine tanking with perma block thanks to the help of others. With the cost going up to 336 you could maybe get away with it being 20k but I like a cushion to fall back on.

Liofa wrote: »

Now to the video it was the fact I do not play the meta live does not mean I do not use it to test other ideas

@Nolic1

Even with this here you said , I honestly don't understand why you want to make an obviously weaker build . You can still make a proper build that can compete with meta . You don't have to gimp the group that much just to play your own style . I mean , when I first completed the 5th platform nuke on Rakkhat HM , I was using a build that is far from what people considered meta during that time . Did I prove it to be as effective as meta builds ? Hell yes . There were only a few groups that done it back then and I was one of them , playing with an absurd build . If you want me to believe that your build is as effective as meta , show me some videos and scores . I am gonna be honest here . I took me about a month to make a proper Warden Main Tank build . I was raiding with different gear and CP setups everytime to find what works best . That build has proven itself in leaderboards . When you publish 10 end-game tank builds for a patch that is not even out yet , that makes me doubt these tests you are doing . Especially the ones that makes you think higher Max Stamina gives more sustain .

usmcjdking wrote: »

Any class can permablock.

Any. Class.

Some classes require more effort and direct customization towards being able to do it - but any class can do it and to say otherwise is patently false.

I was referring to his reasoning for people choosing DK over other classes . Not the ''any class can permablock'' part . I thought this was very clear but whatever ^^

So thanks for your advice I will leave you all to your deeds I have work to do.

Nolic1 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Going against the meta just to go against the meta... Well yea, you can do it, I mean I did say there was a difference between clearing content and doing so as best and fast as possible. But you do know that by doing so you are also preventing everyone in your group from achieving their max potential right? Which is probably why most won't let you go in with just any set up in Trials. Doing it differently "just cause" sounds like a bad idea, but you do you. I mean I guess it can be fun, but I don't see the appeal in choosing a play style that instead of boost your abilities, diminishes you abilities.

Also Max Stamina will not save you from running out of stamina on long boss fights. Max Stamina does not increase the amount of resources gained from Heavy Attacks, Constitution, Helping Hand, Battle Roar, Potions, Shards or Orbs. These are the things that matter, sure you get slightly more from Undaunted Command but that won't make or break your blocking. Learning when to drop block and to use your abilities at the right time and not to early is the way to achieve great stamina sustain. Your stamina gives you a bigger buffer to work with and can help in some situations, and obviously to little stamina is a thing, but one should not be trying to push every little bit of stamina they can out of their gear and skill choices in the hopes of making it easier to perma block.

Personally won't be getting any more stamina than I already have, think I am gonna be just fine. A bit of a transition period for sure with how long my stamina will last but with more reliable synergies and knowing when to drop block, I won't have to change much if anything.

One never said I was against the meta I do not play the meta cause it offers me nothing I want to play. As for everything else I am only here to offer ideas nothing more if you do not like my choice in what I play go find like minded people to play with.

As for the rest of your comment do you all have to keep pushing this idea I do not know the meta cause repeating the same stuff is not going to change my idea of the game its making you look like a bully forcing me into something I do not want to do. And here again lies the problem with every end game meta player and none meta player so can we just stop and let this go and get back on topic of how to make the block cost work.

So you know I did test it and with a 23k stam I was able to hold the block down and still do all the things listed above and was fine tanking with perma block thanks to the help of others. With the cost going up to 336 you could maybe get away with it being 20k but I like a cushion to fall back on.

I think you misunderstand. I do get that you know the meta, never said you didn't, and I said going against the meta, not being against it. Going against in this case meaning purposefully not utilizing it, which is what you are doing. Gimping yourself and your team in favor of what is essentially roleplaying reason, which to be honest now that I think about it does make me laugh cause its a Role Playing Game but then again the essence of end game content in MMORPGs and the idea "Play as you want" are very far removed from each other and the spirit of roleplaying in the sense of "be your fantasy you" is very much so dead in end game MMORPGs as numbers are king, queen and law.

What I am perplexed about though is your insistence in the claim that Max Stamina equals better block sustain.


Usage of Stamina
Pierce Armor 1497/12s=124.75/s
Heroic Slash 2614/9s=290.44444/s
Lowest Block cost 336x4=1344/s
Total 124.75+290.44444+1344=1759.19444/s

1759 stamina per second

Recovery of stamina
Constitution 5p 540/4=135/s
Potions 7582/45=168.48889/s
Warhorn 11500/68=169/s
Spears/Orbs 3960/20=198/s
Total 135+168.48889+169+198=670.48889

670 stamina per second

1759-670=1089

Add in Helping Hand

Helping Hand 990stamina per 4050magicka

And even if you have a Igneous Shield every second you would lose 99 stamina every second. And I don't think you got 8100 magicka recovery. Now obviously in most boss fights you do not get hit every second. And this is where I stop instead of explaining more and make a point, where in all of this does max stamina come into play? No where, its helpful as a buffer/cushion and nothing more. And having 23k as opposed to 20k will really not change your ability to perma block. Cause even though that math session was really not my point, I will point out that it was completely lacking heavy attacks cause a true perma blocker cannot heavy attack. Not blocking all the time is the best possible way to increase sustain, cause not only are you not draining at that time but heavy attacking recovers a lot of stamina. Max stamina is irrelevant. Having enough to give yourself time for the bursts of stamina return to kick in is more than enough, anything more than that is a waste. At this point its way to late for me to continue this and its become a bit of a ramble, I hope I explained myself well enough.

warhorn explanation

Bevik wrote: »

The more I read this meta tanking the more sounds like it's some kind of Godlike creature. Like you have to do things so precisely and timed if you miss with 0.00000001 seconds the whole group will wipe. Please tell me it's not true and these experienced tanks just want some attention.

(I've never tanked vet trials yet so keep your flame for yourself)

Been said the whole permablocking is rubbish, shouldn't be a thing. End of story. ZOS should rework some mechanics to make tanking a fun "job". I played tanks in other MMOs and they were a lot of fun, here I liked also very much and I played as an active tank, means I tried to block at the right time, not perma holding the block. Yes sometimes I made bad timing so I flew back, happens. Since I'm up to 50k+ Health I had the luxury to be able to take 1-2 hits. While so many tanks died from some bosses I still had 5-20k HP and I was ok and could ress all the member if they died. I'm not a pro tank, nor some super experienced but hell I want to tank for fun, not for some kind of meta boring let's hold block as long as you can. The only thing made it interesting that I was running around and took all the trashes, otherwise just take the big mobs and bosses and hold block. So boring. ZOS is right, should end this permablock thing in PvP and PvE also. Garbage, rubbish, end it, rework mechanics, rework tanks.

You guys don't see this or just blindfolded because of you used to this boring tanking? And wearing Alkosh not a tanking set is another ridiculous move. Call me selfish wearing tanking sets. Alkosh shouldn't be a thing either. There must be a support tank set but not Alkosh.

Why, cause its medium armor? Would you think of it as a thing that shouldn't be if it was heavy?

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Going against the meta just to go against the meta... Well yea, you can do it, I mean I did say there was a difference between clearing content and doing so as best and fast as possible. But you do know that by doing so you are also preventing everyone in your group from achieving their max potential right? Which is probably why most won't let you go in with just any set up in Trials. Doing it differently "just cause" sounds like a bad idea, but you do you. I mean I guess it can be fun, but I don't see the appeal in choosing a play style that instead of boost your abilities, diminishes you abilities.

Also Max Stamina will not save you from running out of stamina on long boss fights. Max Stamina does not increase the amount of resources gained from Heavy Attacks, Constitution, Helping Hand, Battle Roar, Potions, Shards or Orbs. These are the things that matter, sure you get slightly more from Undaunted Command but that won't make or break your blocking. Learning when to drop block and to use your abilities at the right time and not to early is the way to achieve great stamina sustain. Your stamina gives you a bigger buffer to work with and can help in some situations, and obviously to little stamina is a thing, but one should not be trying to push every little bit of stamina they can out of their gear and skill choices in the hopes of making it easier to perma block.

Personally won't be getting any more stamina than I already have, think I am gonna be just fine. A bit of a transition period for sure with how long my stamina will last but with more reliable synergies and knowing when to drop block, I won't have to change much if anything.

One never said I was against the meta I do not play the meta cause it offers me nothing I want to play. As for everything else I am only here to offer ideas nothing more if you do not like my choice in what I play go find like minded people to play with.

As for the rest of your comment do you all have to keep pushing this idea I do not know the meta cause repeating the same stuff is not going to change my idea of the game its making you look like a bully forcing me into something I do not want to do. And here again lies the problem with every end game meta player and none meta player so can we just stop and let this go and get back on topic of how to make the block cost work.

So you know I did test it and with a 23k stam I was able to hold the block down and still do all the things listed above and was fine tanking with perma block thanks to the help of others. With the cost going up to 336 you could maybe get away with it being 20k but I like a cushion to fall back on.

Meta

xaraan wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

Permablock is only a feature available to some classes, DK mainly, and potentially warden. It looks like the latter will no longer be perma blocking after this patch which may well leave only DK. If ZOS want to stop permablocking they should only tweak the classes that can still do it. NB used to be able to perma block, but Morrowind changed that because a class skill was changed. Sorcs can't because they have a cast time on stamina regen. The crazy thing was my DK got better sustain from the class changes in morrowid! The forum is complaining about PVP perma blocking DK's and the fix is looking like it will be one that wil mainly affect all classes in PVE?

Honestly, I think perma blocking is/was fine, at least in PVE, but there should be sacrifices. Like increased cost of skills you 'block cast' or wearing a set that has a 5 piece that helps in some way (be either through reduced block cost, pooling the cost between mag/stam, etc) This would go quite a way to remove the expectation of tanks to be wearing DPS support sets too.

Tanking should be a lot more fun than it is. There needs to be greater balance between he classes, I really hope we'll see a class get a skill tree split today.

Any class can perma block its that the DK Iron skin gives more in block damage that it why so many play them. As for a sorc adjust the stamina pool and you can perma block just like the DK you will take 10% more damage is all. The reason for Argonian is there passive for potions makes it easier with the lower stam and magicka to manage the lower resource pools along with some of the other passives. Woeler tanks with a Khajitt DK with the same meta set up many others do and does it fine with a 35k hp and 17k stam and 17k magicka.

As for Block Casting costing more no what they need to look into is changing the mechanics for how often we have to block things to a lesser degree so we can have time to manage resources on tanks like through heavy attacks and such. But I think we will not see that till the next major update when we could see changes in alot of other things because by then it will have been a 1 year sense Morrowind which would of given them time to gather alot more data and have time to adjust things accordingly or at least thats what I am hoping they do.

There is a lot of info here that doesn't quite hit the mark. No, any class cannot perma-block in hard situations (nobody really cares about the easy stuff), and DK's using earthen heart to get stam back while holding block adds to their ability to do so. What ZoS needs to do is add little ways to allow for every class to work for stam while blocking besides squeezing in heavies (as it's no always do-able).

And, Woeler is a good tank, but a horrible example to use in situations like this. It's a cakewalk to tank for a high-end group vs. your everyday raid team or group. Anyone that has ever tanked with a wide variety of players of different skills can tell you how easy it is to tank for a super group vs. even an average/good one (not even going to say a bad group). Talk to tanks that are working with groups to just now clear vAS HM and not the guys that probably did it in the first couple weeks - those are the tanks that have to deal with real resource management.

I do agree they need to look into the mechanics of fights that require perma-block situations though, but I doubt they will.

This notion that no other class but DK can permablock is so ridiculously false - why do people keep repeating it?

I suppose it's more accurate to say that no class can perma-block every situation the game (especially if they aren't in a build that is not completely focused on just that, but even so). But DK has an easier time of attempting it. You can say that's not accurate, but I'm talking vHM trials, vHM new dungeon stuff, etc. You know I tank on every class JD and you know I've tanked everything in the game from PvP to PvE HM stuff, I've seen plenty situations that cannot be perma-blocked and I've seen several situations that a non-dk would have trouble with on that road before a DK.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

The more I read this meta tanking the more sounds like it's some kind of Godlike creature. Like you have to do things so precisely and timed if you miss with 0.00000001 seconds the whole group will wipe. Please tell me it's not true and these experienced tanks just want some attention.

(I've never tanked vet trials yet so keep your flame for yourself)

Been said the whole permablocking is rubbish, shouldn't be a thing. End of story. ZOS should rework some mechanics to make tanking a fun "job". I played tanks in other MMOs and they were a lot of fun, here I liked also very much and I played as an active tank, means I tried to block at the right time, not perma holding the block. Yes sometimes I made bad timing so I flew back, happens. Since I'm up to 50k+ Health I had the luxury to be able to take 1-2 hits. While so many tanks died from some bosses I still had 5-20k HP and I was ok and could ress all the member if they died. I'm not a pro tank, nor some super experienced but hell I want to tank for fun, not for some kind of meta boring let's hold block as long as you can. The only thing made it interesting that I was running around and took all the trashes, otherwise just take the big mobs and bosses and hold block. So boring. ZOS is right, should end this permablock thing in PvP and PvE also. Garbage, rubbish, end it, rework mechanics, rework tanks.

You guys don't see this or just blindfolded because of you used to this boring tanking? And wearing Alkosh not a tanking set is another ridiculous move. Call me selfish wearing tanking sets. Alkosh shouldn't be a thing either. There must be a support tank set but not Alkosh.

Why, cause its medium armor? Would you think of it as a thing that shouldn't be if it was heavy?

No, because these:

(2 Items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical

(3 Items) Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon and Trial Monsters by 5%.

(4 Items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage

(5 Items) When you activate a synergy, you send a shockwave from your position that deals 1720 Physical Damage and an additional 12040 Physical Damage over 10 seconds.

xaraan wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Going against the meta just to go against the meta... Well yea, you can do it, I mean I did say there was a difference between clearing content and doing so as best and fast as possible. But you do know that by doing so you are also preventing everyone in your group from achieving their max potential right? Which is probably why most won't let you go in with just any set up in Trials. Doing it differently "just cause" sounds like a bad idea, but you do you. I mean I guess it can be fun, but I don't see the appeal in choosing a play style that instead of boost your abilities, diminishes you abilities.

Also Max Stamina will not save you from running out of stamina on long boss fights. Max Stamina does not increase the amount of resources gained from Heavy Attacks, Constitution, Helping Hand, Battle Roar, Potions, Shards or Orbs. These are the things that matter, sure you get slightly more from Undaunted Command but that won't make or break your blocking. Learning when to drop block and to use your abilities at the right time and not to early is the way to achieve great stamina sustain. Your stamina gives you a bigger buffer to work with and can help in some situations, and obviously to little stamina is a thing, but one should not be trying to push every little bit of stamina they can out of their gear and skill choices in the hopes of making it easier to perma block.

Personally won't be getting any more stamina than I already have, think I am gonna be just fine. A bit of a transition period for sure with how long my stamina will last but with more reliable synergies and knowing when to drop block, I won't have to change much if anything.

One never said I was against the meta I do not play the meta cause it offers me nothing I want to play. As for everything else I am only here to offer ideas nothing more if you do not like my choice in what I play go find like minded people to play with.

As for the rest of your comment do you all have to keep pushing this idea I do not know the meta cause repeating the same stuff is not going to change my idea of the game its making you look like a bully forcing me into something I do not want to do. And here again lies the problem with every end game meta player and none meta player so can we just stop and let this go and get back on topic of how to make the block cost work.

So you know I did test it and with a 23k stam I was able to hold the block down and still do all the things listed above and was fine tanking with perma block thanks to the help of others. With the cost going up to 336 you could maybe get away with it being 20k but I like a cushion to fall back on.

Meta

xaraan wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

Permablock is only a feature available to some classes, DK mainly, and potentially warden. It looks like the latter will no longer be perma blocking after this patch which may well leave only DK. If ZOS want to stop permablocking they should only tweak the classes that can still do it. NB used to be able to perma block, but Morrowind changed that because a class skill was changed. Sorcs can't because they have a cast time on stamina regen. The crazy thing was my DK got better sustain from the class changes in morrowid! The forum is complaining about PVP perma blocking DK's and the fix is looking like it will be one that wil mainly affect all classes in PVE?

Honestly, I think perma blocking is/was fine, at least in PVE, but there should be sacrifices. Like increased cost of skills you 'block cast' or wearing a set that has a 5 piece that helps in some way (be either through reduced block cost, pooling the cost between mag/stam, etc) This would go quite a way to remove the expectation of tanks to be wearing DPS support sets too.

Tanking should be a lot more fun than it is. There needs to be greater balance between he classes, I really hope we'll see a class get a skill tree split today.

Any class can perma block its that the DK Iron skin gives more in block damage that it why so many play them. As for a sorc adjust the stamina pool and you can perma block just like the DK you will take 10% more damage is all. The reason for Argonian is there passive for potions makes it easier with the lower stam and magicka to manage the lower resource pools along with some of the other passives. Woeler tanks with a Khajitt DK with the same meta set up many others do and does it fine with a 35k hp and 17k stam and 17k magicka.

As for Block Casting costing more no what they need to look into is changing the mechanics for how often we have to block things to a lesser degree so we can have time to manage resources on tanks like through heavy attacks and such. But I think we will not see that till the next major update when we could see changes in alot of other things because by then it will have been a 1 year sense Morrowind which would of given them time to gather alot more data and have time to adjust things accordingly or at least thats what I am hoping they do.

There is a lot of info here that doesn't quite hit the mark. No, any class cannot perma-block in hard situations (nobody really cares about the easy stuff), and DK's using earthen heart to get stam back while holding block adds to their ability to do so. What ZoS needs to do is add little ways to allow for every class to work for stam while blocking besides squeezing in heavies (as it's no always do-able).

And, Woeler is a good tank, but a horrible example to use in situations like this. It's a cakewalk to tank for a high-end group vs. your everyday raid team or group. Anyone that has ever tanked with a wide variety of players of different skills can tell you how easy it is to tank for a super group vs. even an average/good one (not even going to say a bad group). Talk to tanks that are working with groups to just now clear vAS HM and not the guys that probably did it in the first couple weeks - those are the tanks that have to deal with real resource management.

I do agree they need to look into the mechanics of fights that require perma-block situations though, but I doubt they will.

This notion that no other class but DK can permablock is so ridiculously false - why do people keep repeating it?

I suppose it's more accurate to say that no class can perma-block every situation the game (especially if they aren't in a build that is not completely focused on just that, but even so). But DK has an easier time of attempting it. You can say that's not accurate, but I'm talking vHM trials, vHM new dungeon stuff, etc. You know I tank on every class JD and you know I've tanked everything in the game from PvP to PvE HM stuff, I've seen plenty situations that cannot be perma-blocked and I've seen several situations that a non-dk would have trouble with on that road before a DK.

Before these block cost changes everything could be permablocked. Can't think of a situation where I could not. Except for no CP PvP.

Bevik wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

The more I read this meta tanking the more sounds like it's some kind of Godlike creature. Like you have to do things so precisely and timed if you miss with 0.00000001 seconds the whole group will wipe. Please tell me it's not true and these experienced tanks just want some attention.

(I've never tanked vet trials yet so keep your flame for yourself)

Been said the whole permablocking is rubbish, shouldn't be a thing. End of story. ZOS should rework some mechanics to make tanking a fun "job". I played tanks in other MMOs and they were a lot of fun, here I liked also very much and I played as an active tank, means I tried to block at the right time, not perma holding the block. Yes sometimes I made bad timing so I flew back, happens. Since I'm up to 50k+ Health I had the luxury to be able to take 1-2 hits. While so many tanks died from some bosses I still had 5-20k HP and I was ok and could ress all the member if they died. I'm not a pro tank, nor some super experienced but hell I want to tank for fun, not for some kind of meta boring let's hold block as long as you can. The only thing made it interesting that I was running around and took all the trashes, otherwise just take the big mobs and bosses and hold block. So boring. ZOS is right, should end this permablock thing in PvP and PvE also. Garbage, rubbish, end it, rework mechanics, rework tanks.

You guys don't see this or just blindfolded because of you used to this boring tanking? And wearing Alkosh not a tanking set is another ridiculous move. Call me selfish wearing tanking sets. Alkosh shouldn't be a thing either. There must be a support tank set but not Alkosh.

Why, cause its medium armor? Would you think of it as a thing that shouldn't be if it was heavy?

No, because these:

(2 Items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical

(3 Items) Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon and Trial Monsters by 5%.

(4 Items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage

(5 Items) When you activate a synergy, you send a shockwave from your position that deals 1720 Physical Damage and an additional 12040 Physical Damage over 10 seconds.

You know that some tanks even used to use light armor set with no inherent "Tank" bonuses. The heresy I tell you.

Let me ask you @Bevik what tank sets are you using?

Bevik wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

The more I read this meta tanking the more sounds like it's some kind of Godlike creature. Like you have to do things so precisely and timed if you miss with 0.00000001 seconds the whole group will wipe. Please tell me it's not true and these experienced tanks just want some attention.

(I've never tanked vet trials yet so keep your flame for yourself)

Been said the whole permablocking is rubbish, shouldn't be a thing. End of story. ZOS should rework some mechanics to make tanking a fun "job". I played tanks in other MMOs and they were a lot of fun, here I liked also very much and I played as an active tank, means I tried to block at the right time, not perma holding the block. Yes sometimes I made bad timing so I flew back, happens. Since I'm up to 50k+ Health I had the luxury to be able to take 1-2 hits. While so many tanks died from some bosses I still had 5-20k HP and I was ok and could ress all the member if they died. I'm not a pro tank, nor some super experienced but hell I want to tank for fun, not for some kind of meta boring let's hold block as long as you can. The only thing made it interesting that I was running around and took all the trashes, otherwise just take the big mobs and bosses and hold block. So boring. ZOS is right, should end this permablock thing in PvP and PvE also. Garbage, rubbish, end it, rework mechanics, rework tanks.

You guys don't see this or just blindfolded because of you used to this boring tanking? And wearing Alkosh not a tanking set is another ridiculous move. Call me selfish wearing tanking sets. Alkosh shouldn't be a thing either. There must be a support tank set but not Alkosh.

Why, cause its medium armor? Would you think of it as a thing that shouldn't be if it was heavy?

No, because these:

(2 Items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical

(3 Items) Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon and Trial Monsters by 5%.

(4 Items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage

(5 Items) When you activate a synergy, you send a shockwave from your position that deals 1720 Physical Damage and an additional 12040 Physical Damage over 10 seconds.

Did you purposely not include the debuff or what?

This is some next level arrogance

Yes it was by purpose I missed the debuff out. As that itself won't make the set a tanking set. Could be a nice support set for stamina DDs but unfortunately lost it's purpose. But anyway so many good sets out there people are just not using since "Elites" are all about achievements and the game itself let these things happen.

Sorry to burst your little bubble, but guess what, when you're doing trials you do it as a group, stop playing for yourself because of your own arrogance to wear a set because you don't want to adapt a playstyle, I don't care how harsh or elitist this comes across, but at least I and many other tanks are the ones playing as a team.

And tell us, what good sets out there are people not using, I'll let you know why people are not using them and I'll be as non biased as possible.

paulsimonps wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Going against the meta just to go against the meta... Well yea, you can do it, I mean I did say there was a difference between clearing content and doing so as best and fast as possible. But you do know that by doing so you are also preventing everyone in your group from achieving their max potential right? Which is probably why most won't let you go in with just any set up in Trials. Doing it differently "just cause" sounds like a bad idea, but you do you. I mean I guess it can be fun, but I don't see the appeal in choosing a play style that instead of boost your abilities, diminishes you abilities.

Also Max Stamina will not save you from running out of stamina on long boss fights. Max Stamina does not increase the amount of resources gained from Heavy Attacks, Constitution, Helping Hand, Battle Roar, Potions, Shards or Orbs. These are the things that matter, sure you get slightly more from Undaunted Command but that won't make or break your blocking. Learning when to drop block and to use your abilities at the right time and not to early is the way to achieve great stamina sustain. Your stamina gives you a bigger buffer to work with and can help in some situations, and obviously to little stamina is a thing, but one should not be trying to push every little bit of stamina they can out of their gear and skill choices in the hopes of making it easier to perma block.

Personally won't be getting any more stamina than I already have, think I am gonna be just fine. A bit of a transition period for sure with how long my stamina will last but with more reliable synergies and knowing when to drop block, I won't have to change much if anything.

One never said I was against the meta I do not play the meta cause it offers me nothing I want to play. As for everything else I am only here to offer ideas nothing more if you do not like my choice in what I play go find like minded people to play with.

As for the rest of your comment do you all have to keep pushing this idea I do not know the meta cause repeating the same stuff is not going to change my idea of the game its making you look like a bully forcing me into something I do not want to do. And here again lies the problem with every end game meta player and none meta player so can we just stop and let this go and get back on topic of how to make the block cost work.

So you know I did test it and with a 23k stam I was able to hold the block down and still do all the things listed above and was fine tanking with perma block thanks to the help of others. With the cost going up to 336 you could maybe get away with it being 20k but I like a cushion to fall back on.

Meta

xaraan wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

Permablock is only a feature available to some classes, DK mainly, and potentially warden. It looks like the latter will no longer be perma blocking after this patch which may well leave only DK. If ZOS want to stop permablocking they should only tweak the classes that can still do it. NB used to be able to perma block, but Morrowind changed that because a class skill was changed. Sorcs can't because they have a cast time on stamina regen. The crazy thing was my DK got better sustain from the class changes in morrowid! The forum is complaining about PVP perma blocking DK's and the fix is looking like it will be one that wil mainly affect all classes in PVE?

Honestly, I think perma blocking is/was fine, at least in PVE, but there should be sacrifices. Like increased cost of skills you 'block cast' or wearing a set that has a 5 piece that helps in some way (be either through reduced block cost, pooling the cost between mag/stam, etc) This would go quite a way to remove the expectation of tanks to be wearing DPS support sets too.

Tanking should be a lot more fun than it is. There needs to be greater balance between he classes, I really hope we'll see a class get a skill tree split today.

Any class can perma block its that the DK Iron skin gives more in block damage that it why so many play them. As for a sorc adjust the stamina pool and you can perma block just like the DK you will take 10% more damage is all. The reason for Argonian is there passive for potions makes it easier with the lower stam and magicka to manage the lower resource pools along with some of the other passives. Woeler tanks with a Khajitt DK with the same meta set up many others do and does it fine with a 35k hp and 17k stam and 17k magicka.

As for Block Casting costing more no what they need to look into is changing the mechanics for how often we have to block things to a lesser degree so we can have time to manage resources on tanks like through heavy attacks and such. But I think we will not see that till the next major update when we could see changes in alot of other things because by then it will have been a 1 year sense Morrowind which would of given them time to gather alot more data and have time to adjust things accordingly or at least thats what I am hoping they do.

There is a lot of info here that doesn't quite hit the mark. No, any class cannot perma-block in hard situations (nobody really cares about the easy stuff), and DK's using earthen heart to get stam back while holding block adds to their ability to do so. What ZoS needs to do is add little ways to allow for every class to work for stam while blocking besides squeezing in heavies (as it's no always do-able).

And, Woeler is a good tank, but a horrible example to use in situations like this. It's a cakewalk to tank for a high-end group vs. your everyday raid team or group. Anyone that has ever tanked with a wide variety of players of different skills can tell you how easy it is to tank for a super group vs. even an average/good one (not even going to say a bad group). Talk to tanks that are working with groups to just now clear vAS HM and not the guys that probably did it in the first couple weeks - those are the tanks that have to deal with real resource management.

I do agree they need to look into the mechanics of fights that require perma-block situations though, but I doubt they will.

This notion that no other class but DK can permablock is so ridiculously false - why do people keep repeating it?

I suppose it's more accurate to say that no class can perma-block every situation the game (especially if they aren't in a build that is not completely focused on just that, but even so). But DK has an easier time of attempting it. You can say that's not accurate, but I'm talking vHM trials, vHM new dungeon stuff, etc. You know I tank on every class JD and you know I've tanked everything in the game from PvP to PvE HM stuff, I've seen plenty situations that cannot be perma-blocked and I've seen several situations that a non-dk would have trouble with on that road before a DK.

Before these block cost changes everything could be permablocked. Can't think of a situation where I could not. Except for no CP PvP.

Then you need to run some of the hardest content in the game without the best players in the game for the best test.

Bevik wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

The more I read this meta tanking the more sounds like it's some kind of Godlike creature. Like you have to do things so precisely and timed if you miss with 0.00000001 seconds the whole group will wipe. Please tell me it's not true and these experienced tanks just want some attention.

(I've never tanked vet trials yet so keep your flame for yourself)

Been said the whole permablocking is rubbish, shouldn't be a thing. End of story. ZOS should rework some mechanics to make tanking a fun "job". I played tanks in other MMOs and they were a lot of fun, here I liked also very much and I played as an active tank, means I tried to block at the right time, not perma holding the block. Yes sometimes I made bad timing so I flew back, happens. Since I'm up to 50k+ Health I had the luxury to be able to take 1-2 hits. While so many tanks died from some bosses I still had 5-20k HP and I was ok and could ress all the member if they died. I'm not a pro tank, nor some super experienced but hell I want to tank for fun, not for some kind of meta boring let's hold block as long as you can. The only thing made it interesting that I was running around and took all the trashes, otherwise just take the big mobs and bosses and hold block. So boring. ZOS is right, should end this permablock thing in PvP and PvE also. Garbage, rubbish, end it, rework mechanics, rework tanks.

You guys don't see this or just blindfolded because of you used to this boring tanking? And wearing Alkosh not a tanking set is another ridiculous move. Call me selfish wearing tanking sets. Alkosh shouldn't be a thing either. There must be a support tank set but not Alkosh.

Why, cause its medium armor? Would you think of it as a thing that shouldn't be if it was heavy?

No, because these:

(2 Items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical

(3 Items) Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon and Trial Monsters by 5%.

(4 Items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage

(5 Items) When you activate a synergy, you send a shockwave from your position that deals 1720 Physical Damage and an additional 12040 Physical Damage over 10 seconds.

Did you purposely not include the debuff or what?

This is some next level arrogance

Yes it was by purpose I missed the debuff out. As that itself won't make the set a tanking set. Could be a nice support set for stamina DDs but unfortunately lost it's purpose. But anyway so many good sets out there people are just not using since "Elites" are all about achievements and the game itself let these things happen.

Sorry to burst your little bubble, but guess what, when you're doing trials you do it as a group, stop playing for yourself because of your own arrogance to wear a set because you don't want to adapt a playstyle, I don't care how harsh or elitist this comes across, but at least I and many other tanks are the ones playing as a team.

And tell us, what good sets out there are people not using, I'll let you know why people are not using them and I'll be as non biased as possible.

As I said above it's not about playsyle or a team. Alkosh is a DPS set. Sets like giving less damage from Dungeons and Trials.

Do you understand team building composition, I can help out a little bit. What other set are you going to wear, and I mean really, what set are you going to wear and why would you wear said sets, I want you to answer this to nullify my example of why you should wear alkosh.

The set offers a very powerful debuff, easy to manage debuff with good team synergy and get close to 100% uptime, allowing your group to get more damage by using other sets and using stronger mundus stones as a result. So in question, why would you put this set on a DD in your group lowering his damage for what it could be, and not to mention a DD will not get as many synergies as a tank would get because of placement and how synergies work.

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

The more I read this meta tanking the more sounds like it's some kind of Godlike creature. Like you have to do things so precisely and timed if you miss with 0.00000001 seconds the whole group will wipe. Please tell me it's not true and these experienced tanks just want some attention.

(I've never tanked vet trials yet so keep your flame for yourself)

Been said the whole permablocking is rubbish, shouldn't be a thing. End of story. ZOS should rework some mechanics to make tanking a fun "job". I played tanks in other MMOs and they were a lot of fun, here I liked also very much and I played as an active tank, means I tried to block at the right time, not perma holding the block. Yes sometimes I made bad timing so I flew back, happens. Since I'm up to 50k+ Health I had the luxury to be able to take 1-2 hits. While so many tanks died from some bosses I still had 5-20k HP and I was ok and could ress all the member if they died. I'm not a pro tank, nor some super experienced but hell I want to tank for fun, not for some kind of meta boring let's hold block as long as you can. The only thing made it interesting that I was running around and took all the trashes, otherwise just take the big mobs and bosses and hold block. So boring. ZOS is right, should end this permablock thing in PvP and PvE also. Garbage, rubbish, end it, rework mechanics, rework tanks.

You guys don't see this or just blindfolded because of you used to this boring tanking? And wearing Alkosh not a tanking set is another ridiculous move. Call me selfish wearing tanking sets. Alkosh shouldn't be a thing either. There must be a support tank set but not Alkosh.

Why, cause its medium armor? Would you think of it as a thing that shouldn't be if it was heavy?

No, because these:

(2 Items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical

(3 Items) Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon and Trial Monsters by 5%.

(4 Items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage

(5 Items) When you activate a synergy, you send a shockwave from your position that deals 1720 Physical Damage and an additional 12040 Physical Damage over 10 seconds.

Did you purposely not include the debuff or what?

This is some next level arrogance

Yes it was by purpose I missed the debuff out. As that itself won't make the set a tanking set. Could be a nice support set for stamina DDs but unfortunately lost it's purpose. But anyway so many good sets out there people are just not using since "Elites" are all about achievements and the game itself let these things happen.

Sorry to burst your little bubble, but guess what, when you're doing trials you do it as a group, stop playing for yourself because of your own arrogance to wear a set because you don't want to adapt a playstyle, I don't care how harsh or elitist this comes across, but at least I and many other tanks are the ones playing as a team.

And tell us, what good sets out there are people not using, I'll let you know why people are not using them and I'll be as non biased as possible.

As I said above it's not about playsyle or a team. Alkosh is a DPS set. Sets like giving less damage from Dungeons and Trials.

Do you understand team building composition, I can help out a little bit. What other set are you going to wear, and I mean really, what set are you going to wear and why would you wear said sets, I want you to answer this to nullify my example of why you should wear alkosh.

The set offers a very powerful debuff, easy to manage debuff with good team synergy and get close to 100% uptime, allowing your group to get more damage by using other sets and using stronger mundus stones as a result. So in question, why would you put this set on a DD in your group lowering his damage for what it could be, and not to mention a DD will not get as many synergies as a tank would get because of placement and how synergies work.

3. It does not, in any way, have 100% up time, the uptime on Alkosh is horrible. Not even counting synergy trouble, any change in ground height can cause it not to apply and even if there is no change, I've triggered it and watched the stuff I'm facing not get any of the effect of it on debuffs.

4. CP has gone up enough to replace the pen you'd get from Alkosh and you could allow your tank to wear something beneficial to the team in some other way. If you are pumping a ton of points into something that is already getting horrible diminishing returns instead of just taking some pen points, then it's a little selfish unless your whole team is building for some sort of burn strat on certain runs..

I just want to talk about these 2 points you had

1: Not sure how you are not getting close to 100% you have 3 usable synergies, sometimes 4 if you set up for it. It is quite easy to get close to 100%, and you also have an off tank running it too.

2: You are not at the point where CP can replace penetration. Apprentice with Torugs+Alkosh+Infused Crusher is still the best.


Side note for what you said about being more tanky and not running alkosh/torugs. You can get just over 50k health using torugs and alkosh.

Bevik wrote: »

Been said the whole permablocking is rubbish, shouldn't be a thing. End of story. ZOS should rework some mechanics to make tanking a fun "job". I played tanks in other MMOs and they were a lot of fun, here I liked also very much and I played as an active tank, means I tried to block at the right time, not perma holding the block. Yes sometimes I made bad timing so I flew back, happens. Since I'm up to 50k+ Health I had the luxury to be able to take 1-2 hits. While so many tanks died from some bosses I still had 5-20k HP and I was ok and could ress all the member if they died. I'm not a pro tank, nor some super experienced but hell I want to tank for fun, not for some kind of meta boring let's hold block as long as you can.

The danger in big hits is the stun, not the health loss - a good healer can take care of that no problem. Even if you have the stamina to cc break that's at least a second where you can't reapply taunt, move mobs, refresh your buffs, or block the next big hit. That's enough time to lose control of the battlefield and cause a wipe.

I agree that perma-block shouldn't be a thing, but on some fights it has to be used because of the way the encounters were designed. There are trial fights where the tank holds 3+ heavy hitters at once and the timing frequently means you don't have a window to drop block, let alone heavy attack for resources. It happens in dungeons too, like CoS and BF.

Also lag. I don't know how much latency you play with, but I average 130-350 ms. That's enough that I have to pro-actively block because if I wait for the telegraph on a big hit I'll be too late, and that makes my window to drop block less than 2 seconds (the time needed to regen any stamina whatsoever); at that point I might as well keep block up instead of chancing the stun.

You guys don't see this or just blindfolded because of you used to this boring tanking? And wearing Alkosh not a tanking set is another ridiculous move. Call me selfish wearing tanking sets. Alkosh shouldn't be a thing either. There must be a support tank set but not Alkosh.

I don't run Alkosh, ftr, even though I have a full set.

After ebon, there aren't many heavy sets that help the group. There are a few sets that heal allies within 8 metres, but healers take care of that. There are some that provide defensive shields or resist bonuses but trial tanks are already resist maxed, and if you're using low slash you're already inflicting maim. There's some potential in sets like Beckoning Steel (intercepts projectiles) and Lunar Bastion (provides aegis) but a lot of bosses are so big that if your dps are stacked on the far side they won't get the buff (this is why not many people run Lord Warden in end game, afaict). Alkosh however works against everything - single bosses, group bosses, trash - and doesn't depend on where the dps are standing.

Nifty2g wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

The more I read this meta tanking the more sounds like it's some kind of Godlike creature. Like you have to do things so precisely and timed if you miss with 0.00000001 seconds the whole group will wipe. Please tell me it's not true and these experienced tanks just want some attention.

(I've never tanked vet trials yet so keep your flame for yourself)

Been said the whole permablocking is rubbish, shouldn't be a thing. End of story. ZOS should rework some mechanics to make tanking a fun "job". I played tanks in other MMOs and they were a lot of fun, here I liked also very much and I played as an active tank, means I tried to block at the right time, not perma holding the block. Yes sometimes I made bad timing so I flew back, happens. Since I'm up to 50k+ Health I had the luxury to be able to take 1-2 hits. While so many tanks died from some bosses I still had 5-20k HP and I was ok and could ress all the member if they died. I'm not a pro tank, nor some super experienced but hell I want to tank for fun, not for some kind of meta boring let's hold block as long as you can. The only thing made it interesting that I was running around and took all the trashes, otherwise just take the big mobs and bosses and hold block. So boring. ZOS is right, should end this permablock thing in PvP and PvE also. Garbage, rubbish, end it, rework mechanics, rework tanks.

You guys don't see this or just blindfolded because of you used to this boring tanking? And wearing Alkosh not a tanking set is another ridiculous move. Call me selfish wearing tanking sets. Alkosh shouldn't be a thing either. There must be a support tank set but not Alkosh.

Why, cause its medium armor? Would you think of it as a thing that shouldn't be if it was heavy?

No, because these:

(2 Items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical

(3 Items) Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon and Trial Monsters by 5%.

(4 Items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage

(5 Items) When you activate a synergy, you send a shockwave from your position that deals 1720 Physical Damage and an additional 12040 Physical Damage over 10 seconds.

Did you purposely not include the debuff or what?

This is some next level arrogance

Yes it was by purpose I missed the debuff out. As that itself won't make the set a tanking set. Could be a nice support set for stamina DDs but unfortunately lost it's purpose. But anyway so many good sets out there people are just not using since "Elites" are all about achievements and the game itself let these things happen.

Sorry to burst your little bubble, but guess what, when you're doing trials you do it as a group, stop playing for yourself because of your own arrogance to wear a set because you don't want to adapt a playstyle, I don't care how harsh or elitist this comes across, but at least I and many other tanks are the ones playing as a team.

And tell us, what good sets out there are people not using, I'll let you know why people are not using them and I'll be as non biased as possible.

As I said above it's not about playsyle or a team. Alkosh is a DPS set. Sets like giving less damage from Dungeons and Trials.

Do you understand team building composition, I can help out a little bit. What other set are you going to wear, and I mean really, what set are you going to wear and why would you wear said sets, I want you to answer this to nullify my example of why you should wear alkosh.

The set offers a very powerful debuff, easy to manage debuff with good team synergy and get close to 100% uptime, allowing your group to get more damage by using other sets and using stronger mundus stones as a result. So in question, why would you put this set on a DD in your group lowering his damage for what it could be, and not to mention a DD will not get as many synergies as a tank would get because of placement and how synergies work.

3. It does not, in any way, have 100% up time, the uptime on Alkosh is horrible. Not even counting synergy trouble, any change in ground height can cause it not to apply and even if there is no change, I've triggered it and watched the stuff I'm facing not get any of the effect of it on debuffs.

4. CP has gone up enough to replace the pen you'd get from Alkosh and you could allow your tank to wear something beneficial to the team in some other way. If you are pumping a ton of points into something that is already getting horrible diminishing returns instead of just taking some pen points, then it's a little selfish unless your whole team is building for some sort of burn strat on certain runs..

I just want to talk about these 2 points you had

1: Not sure how you are not getting close to 100% you have 3 usable synergies, sometimes 4 if you set up for it. It is quite easy to get close to 100%, and you also have an off tank running it too.

2: You are not at the point where CP can replace penetration. Apprentice with Torugs+Alkosh+Infused Crusher is still the best.


Side note for what you said about being more tanky and not running alkosh/torugs. You can get just over 50k health using torugs and alkosh.

I already explained the problems not counting synergy issues. There are times that even when you use it, it doesn't apply the debuff.

And talking two tanks there are many situations in trials where both tanks are together enough for both they synergies to apply to everything, or even just the one boss. Or it proc's at a time that isn't working for the best damage return.

Not to mention the fact that if you aren't in a top dps team, then the fights will last much longer and the tanks will be tested much more resource wise. Buffing ok dps doesn't always give you great results.

And yes, you can put pen to make up for Alkosh with CP. 3k permanent pen from CP is better than Alkosh's uptime if you can afford to let your tank not run it. Combining it with three other buffs to make your example doesn't help. You can still run Crusher - you can still run infused crusher - you can still run torugs, crusher, and you can still run torugs, infused, crusher if that 600 extra pen is that valuable that you could not afford to spend CP on it.

The meta for tanking isn't a set, most tanks know it's be as tanky as you need to be and then start putting the rest into buffing/helping the group. As nerfs have hit tanking over the past year plus, nobody has been willing to recognize the need to shift gear. Anyone using a top trials group as an example is doing a disservice - that doesn't work for 99% of the rest of the player base, even the players that are actually pretty good at the game. I've done runs where I feel like I could have been naked and done my job, doesn't mean that's a recommended build, and I've done runs where I felt like I was the tankiest in the world and it wasn't enough - same - doesn't mean it's a recommended build. The needs actually fall somewhere in the middle and most of the people talking meta tanking sets that get 'views' are in those top guilds that don't see the true tests of how tanky they are or how tanky the next rung down on the group ladder needs to be. (I've seen these same people wipe in four man dungeons on stream before).

In the end, I don't think Alkosh needs to be the tank meta anymore. It gives stamina jewelry, which most don't need. It gives you nothing by way of the 2, 3 and 4 piece. And a replaceable debuff on the five piece. It has it's place/use and I definitely keep a set. But more than half the time, there is another set I can run, whether defensive, offensive or just making myself tankier that will help the group in some other way (whether it means the healer can ignore me, the group can get shields, etc).

Edit: sure, you can get 50k with torug's alkosh, and you can also never cast a skill outside of your taunt b/c you never have resources. You can never change up gear as easily on the fly b/c you've dumped all enchants and points into health. You can't get the most out of your armor enchants b/c you've bypassed tri glyphs for health glyphs, etc. Having to build around Alkosh frankly sucks and needs to be put in the past.