PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

ol_BANK_lo

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I do not see these changes to block cost being anything different than on Live server in terms of sustain, as long as you are heavy attacking you should be fine. Do not forget about when heavy attacking an offbalanced enemy you restore double the resources which you can do every 20 seconds.

There are also more than just 2 synergies that you can use. And maybe groups might be setting up for that now, that would be a nice change of pace instead of just throwing all of your points into penetration CP.

@Nifty2g That is correct except one thing . Heavy attacks cost time which is used for keeping buff/debuffs with higher uptime . I honestly have no idea how I am going to fit heavy attacks while keeping taunt , heroic slash , mountain blessing , blockade and engulfing flames uptime while using balance to keep my magicka up .

You really do not need to use blockade honestly, if you are heavy attacking you can keep crusher up just fine doing that. Heavy attacking does not take long at all, you shouldn't be losing downtimes.

Sustaining won't be that difficult if you roll the appropriate race and class for it, and we are end game players, running what is best in slot should not be an issue for anyone.

I agree these are straight nerfs and we keep getting tank nerfs because of PvP which is ridiculous but these nerfs aren't the end of the world, I kinda like these ones as it's going to make tanking a little harder.

I disagree with one point.

Tanks are getting nerfs not only because of PVP, rather also because they are capable of virtually if not entirely abandoning "tanking" sets for damage sets designed to boost group performance.

PVP is what people are whining about, but "tanks" running destro dps skills back bar is a microcosm of how far tanking has shifted.

That may be true, but moving to all "tanking sets" doesn't change anything regarding that. Lack of sustain will happen in both buff sets and "tanking sets". So, if that's one of their reasons, nothing changes.

I think this whole move is just stupid. PVE tanking should be based on dealing with mechanics, not running out of resources. Permablocking is necessary in some places...and ZOS already nerfed sustain/block cost twice - once with no ability to regen stam while blocking and then with increased costs. Now they want to increase cost of block and reduce ability to get resources from synergies. This is just stupid.

As Nifty said, it will nearly require Argonians and full sturdy. No diversity. It will also making newer or less skilled tanks not want to play. And lastly, permablocking in some trials or situations is necessary. So, yes, I think PVP tanks play a bigger role in the choice for this change. Once again, balancing PVE and PVP will never work. And quite frankly, who cares if a tank in PVP can permablock. They are the same ones who can't do any damage...so everyone just leaves them alone until last in a group fight.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom STOP WITH THE SUSTAIN NERFS!!!! You are making the game boring as hell. Make good mechanical fights (like most of the vMoL fights). That's what people want. And stop worrying about no damage/permablocking PVP.

Maura_Neysa

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I PVE as much as I PVP. PVE tanking is boring, players don't want to tank. Not because its hard, rather because its boring. For much of the content you can tape your block button down with no issues whatsoever.

Lazy PVE players that don't want to change doesn't improve the dynamics of tanking. It doesn't encourage more players to tank. Outside of trying to provide max support, tanking is by and large a joke. It is easy, boring, and almost thoughtless.

The tanking meta's have emerged because maintaining block and mitigation is far to easy. There is no real active mitigation. Perma blocking has evolved "block" into functioning the same as the passive stat boosts of early WoW game play. WoW adapted tanking and moved to a more active mitigation. Adding more mechanics and add control to make tanking more interactive and interesting.

ESO needs to evolve. Tanking needs to be more than perma blocking. Tanking needs to be more than wearing dps sets to try and buff the group.

Your first line shows you don't tank. Tanking isn't boring its the most dynamic role in the game. You're speaking as if all you do is block and taunt. You don't, a good tank is controlling the whole battle, positioning every enimey, trekking and taunting every high priority enemy (Deathstriker, Stone Braker, EarthGore, Trampler, etc), Stopping every mechanic they can, warning for every mechanic they can't, keeping ads off allies, keeping track of allies so they don't get hit with cleaves.

Sure not all content needs an End Game tank, but then if you don't need a tank for the content you've in, its time you moved up. Stop playing in the Kiddy pool

The population is low because if you screw up everyone knows it, making the slow or timid not try. And if you're of the right skills level to play a tank, a lot of them only tank with know groups because getting bad DPS means taking forever. Vet HRC, I spent 20 minutes soloing Yokeida Kai (top boss) 600k health because the other 5 couldn't stay up. Every time I paused from interupts to bite them, they would go down. So we waited on my 3k DPS to do its work instead of 30k x4

No, just no. Anecdotal delusions of grandeur stacked with false assumptions do nothing to support your claims. The inability of your group to perform has no bearing on the state of tanking. You begin with the claim that blocking and taunting is not everything, then list taunting as an additional task. You pretend that warning allies is somehow specific to tanking and restricted from other roles. In summation you exaggerate to a ridiculous degree.

The slow and timid are the majority of players trying to tank, or rather those new enough to the game to not know better. There are few good players that consistently tank, those that do complain of being stuck as tanks and never getting to DPS. There are even fewer good players that want to tank. Players are groomed to tank until they get sick of it and then they groom someone else and the cycle continues.

- I listed all tasks, not additional ones
- Sure other people can do call outs. Other people aren't constantly watching the boss
- The slow or timid are the majority of players period. The majority of tanks I know still main a tank even over a year later. Yes I happy teach tanking, no it isn't to replace me.
- Attacking me or my anecdotal stories has in no way given me reason to believe you have any idea how to tank. Go tank, or try to atleast, even one run of vDSA, because it sounds like haven't ever been beyond vet non DLC.

Maura_Neysa

aeowulf wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

I’m so torn on this. Personally I hate the fact that tanking is a support role. That Tank set that just keep you alive and holding agro are looked down on. They are no go’s for trails and hard core content. At the same time it will hurt long running Guilds in the short term. Which can start a bad run away effect on PvE groups and numbers.

But I feel like this is what the Tanking role needed. Hear me out now. The great sets that keep you the guy that should never die alive are near useless to the team so no team likes them. Now look at this for the role of a new player. You take the sets that keep you up in a fight while holding agro but everyone bites your head off for running it. You are forced to take powers that do nothing for you in favor of DPS. After a few days or week which will you do learn the counter intuitive Tanking role or the straight forward DD role.

At it’s heart this is the problem that tanking is so counter intuitive that sets and powers that just keep you alive and holding agro is just not good enough. This is a bitter pill to swallow for player with no real time invested in the game.

I do believe for the problem of too few Tanks to be fixed. That Tanking needs to first be done with Tanking sets and powers. And that Tanking endgame needs to be doable for all five classes if they must Tank in different ways that’s not only fine it’s the best case scenario. Making Tanking more fun and less paint by numbers. Addressing the counter intuitive nature of Tanking is the only real first step, but it’s not the last.

Completely agree, especially the last paragraph.

@Toc de Malsvi, @Maura_Neysa - stop arguing, you're both right just looking at it from different situations! Some tanks play taunt/block, others play more dynamically. Which you prefer is your own choice. Which is the best way? Depends on the group and what you are doing.

From what I can tell the big issues re tanking are:

PVE vs PVP - The 'tank' role doesn't exist in PVP, it's just a role that's assigned to group finder/groups in PVE. In PVP they are just another build which could be heavy armour DPS or heavy armour highly survivable. The only issue i really see here is some people complaining they cannot kill them (that's fine, you've matched the counter to your build) when the actual issue is these heavy armour builds can also pump out serious damage. There should be no such thing as a perfect build, I always liked the rock-paper-scissors design, in this case tank-mage-rogue. Answer is probably something along the lines of doubling the damage bonuses on medium/light armour and reducing damage overall to counter this doubling. It would make those armour types significantly better in that armour's suggested role.

The gap between new and old tanks is some classes is too great. Unless you are in the top 1% of NB/sorc or templar tanks, you are going to find out you're not going to be tanking, simple. As a new player, you are not in this 1% so will quit before your potential can be realised. If you are lucky enough to be in that 1% there's a good chance you're switching role or class at some point because DK/Warden do it significantly better. By the time a new player realises this he may well of fallen in love with his toon and does not want to change, so can either swap roles to DPS/healer, struggle on, create a new toon or quit. The balance between the tank role for each class needs to be lessened - until then the tank pool is around 60% smaller than it could be. That resolves another beef - finder. DPS queue can be FAR too long, especially if you are queueing for yesterdays DLC.

FUN! It's not fun, anymore. For me this revolves as much around performance as well as other things. Spell effects for one - in trials (as DPS) when everyone starts nuking at the same time, particle effects go wild, FPS drops to lag-like conditions. Same can be seen at Alik'r dolmens and vMA, from about half way through in one sitting. I would not be suprised if this is the same issue as Cyrodiil people see, except it will be WAY worse there when scaled up. If a tank is hit with this and misses a boss mechanic, the trial will wipe. Thats why perma block is important currently. Look at sap tanks, these were effectively removed and were a ton of fun. Why was this decision made?

ZoS & listening. The likes of Gilliam, Deltia, Woeler have provided TONS of feedback historically. These guys have spent countless hours suggesting things to try to improve the game from the players perspective. Maybe ZoS listens, the feedback thread is there which is great. Also it's now been a year since NB/Templar tanks were effectively removed, classes were promised to be looked at, and it's not even on the horizon apart from a 'um' from Wrobel

aeowulf wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

I’m so torn on this. Personally I hate the fact that tanking is a support role. That Tank set that just keep you alive and holding agro are looked down on. They are no go’s for trails and hard core content. At the same time it will hurt long running Guilds in the short term. Which can start a bad run away effect on PvE groups and numbers.

But I feel like this is what the Tanking role needed. Hear me out now. The great sets that keep you the guy that should never die alive are near useless to the team so no team likes them. Now look at this for the role of a new player. You take the sets that keep you up in a fight while holding agro but everyone bites your head off for running it. You are forced to take powers that do nothing for you in favor of DPS. After a few days or week which will you do learn the counter intuitive Tanking role or the straight forward DD role.

At it’s heart this is the problem that tanking is so counter intuitive that sets and powers that just keep you alive and holding agro is just not good enough. This is a bitter pill to swallow for player with no real time invested in the game.

I do believe for the problem of too few Tanks to be fixed. That Tanking needs to first be done with Tanking sets and powers. And that Tanking endgame needs to be doable for all five classes if they must Tank in different ways that’s not only fine it’s the best case scenario. Making Tanking more fun and less paint by numbers. Addressing the counter intuitive nature of Tanking is the only real first step, but it’s not the last.

Completely agree, especially the last paragraph.

@Toc de Malsvi, @Maura_Neysa - stop arguing, you're both right just looking at it from different situations! Some tanks play taunt/block, others play more dynamically. Which you prefer is your own choice. Which is the best way? Depends on the group and what you are doing.

From what I can tell the big issues re tanking are:

PVE vs PVP - The 'tank' role doesn't exist in PVP, it's just a role that's assigned to group finder/groups in PVE. In PVP they are just another build which could be heavy armour DPS or heavy armour highly survivable. The only issue i really see here is some people complaining they cannot kill them (that's fine, you've matched the counter to your build) when the actual issue is these heavy armour builds can also pump out serious damage. There should be no such thing as a perfect build, I always liked the rock-paper-scissors design, in this case tank-mage-rogue. Answer is probably something along the lines of doubling the damage bonuses on medium/light armour and reducing damage overall to counter this doubling. It would make those armour types significantly better in that armour's suggested role.

The gap between new and old tanks is some classes is too great. Unless you are in the top 1% of NB/sorc or templar tanks, you are going to find out you're not going to be tanking, simple. As a new player, you are not in this 1% so will quit before your potential can be realised. If you are lucky enough to be in that 1% there's a good chance you're switching role or class at some point because DK/Warden do it significantly better. By the time a new player realises this he may well of fallen in love with his toon and does not want to change, so can either swap roles to DPS/healer, struggle on, create a new toon or quit. The balance between the tank role for each class needs to be lessened - until then the tank pool is around 60% smaller than it could be. That resolves another beef - finder. DPS queue can be FAR too long, especially if you are queueing for yesterdays DLC.

FUN! It's not fun, anymore. For me this revolves as much around performance as well as other things. Spell effects for one - in trials (as DPS) when everyone starts nuking at the same time, particle effects go wild, FPS drops to lag-like conditions. Same can be seen at Alik'r dolmens and vMA, from about half way through in one sitting. I would not be suprised if this is the same issue as Cyrodiil people see, except it will be WAY worse there when scaled up. If a tank is hit with this and misses a boss mechanic, the trial will wipe. Thats why perma block is important currently. Look at sap tanks, these were effectively removed and were a ton of fun. Why was this decision made?

ZoS & listening. The likes of Gilliam, Deltia, Woeler have provided TONS of feedback historically. These guys have spent countless hours suggesting things to try to improve the game from the players perspective. Maybe ZoS listens, the feedback thread is there which is great. Also it's now been a year since NB/Templar tanks were effectively removed, classes were promised to be looked at, and it's not even on the horizon apart from a 'um' from Wrobel

No, playing a block/taunt just means you haven't progressed to everything you can do. I do permablock and l'm am block casting everything on my bar. I only drop block when I need the more mobility.

PvP tanking is the same as PvE, crowd control, enemy positioning, absorb damage. My bars look exactly the same except War Horn becomes Permafrost, Inner Rage becomes Corrupting Pollin, and Pierce Armor becomes Shimmering Shield/Siege Shield.

Toc de Malsvi

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I PVE as much as I PVP. PVE tanking is boring, players don't want to tank. Not because its hard, rather because its boring. For much of the content you can tape your block button down with no issues whatsoever.

Lazy PVE players that don't want to change doesn't improve the dynamics of tanking. It doesn't encourage more players to tank. Outside of trying to provide max support, tanking is by and large a joke. It is easy, boring, and almost thoughtless.

The tanking meta's have emerged because maintaining block and mitigation is far to easy. There is no real active mitigation. Perma blocking has evolved "block" into functioning the same as the passive stat boosts of early WoW game play. WoW adapted tanking and moved to a more active mitigation. Adding more mechanics and add control to make tanking more interactive and interesting.

ESO needs to evolve. Tanking needs to be more than perma blocking. Tanking needs to be more than wearing dps sets to try and buff the group.

Your first line shows you don't tank. Tanking isn't boring its the most dynamic role in the game. You're speaking as if all you do is block and taunt. You don't, a good tank is controlling the whole battle, positioning every enimey, trekking and taunting every high priority enemy (Deathstriker, Stone Braker, EarthGore, Trampler, etc), Stopping every mechanic they can, warning for every mechanic they can't, keeping ads off allies, keeping track of allies so they don't get hit with cleaves.

Sure not all content needs an End Game tank, but then if you don't need a tank for the content you've in, its time you moved up. Stop playing in the Kiddy pool

The population is low because if you screw up everyone knows it, making the slow or timid not try. And if you're of the right skills level to play a tank, a lot of them only tank with know groups because getting bad DPS means taking forever. Vet HRC, I spent 20 minutes soloing Yokeida Kai (top boss) 600k health because the other 5 couldn't stay up. Every time I paused from interupts to bite them, they would go down. So we waited on my 3k DPS to do its work instead of 30k x4

No, just no. Anecdotal delusions of grandeur stacked with false assumptions do nothing to support your claims. The inability of your group to perform has no bearing on the state of tanking. You begin with the claim that blocking and taunting is not everything, then list taunting as an additional task. You pretend that warning allies is somehow specific to tanking and restricted from other roles. In summation you exaggerate to a ridiculous degree.

The slow and timid are the majority of players trying to tank, or rather those new enough to the game to not know better. There are few good players that consistently tank, those that do complain of being stuck as tanks and never getting to DPS. There are even fewer good players that want to tank. Players are groomed to tank until they get sick of it and then they groom someone else and the cycle continues.

- I listed all tasks, not additional ones
- Sure other people can do call outs. Other people aren't constantly watching the boss
- The slow or timid are the majority of players period. The majority of tanks I know still main a tank even over a year later. Yes I happy teach tanking, no it isn't to replace me.
- Attacking me or my anecdotal stories has in no way given me reason to believe you have any idea how to tank. Go tank, or try to atleast, even one run of vDSA, because it sounds like haven't ever been beyond vet non DLC.

"Attacking" you now? I was merely commenting on your wild, baseless, and false claims, which you offered with no provocation.

I don't need to give YOU reason to believe I know how to tank. I have my own experience to go on, and there is plenty of that. Tanking vDSA is not particularly hard after you have done it once or twice, but of course if vet-DLC content is your measuring stick I could see how that might mislead you.

You are right about one thing though, although you didn't address it explicitly rather choosing libelous proclamations as your strategy. Saying tanking is just holding block and taunting is an exaggeration, although not much of one. Holding block and taunting is all that is necessary, it is what preoccupies the majority of your time, the rest is icing, its freebies, its fluff. You do it because it makes runs smoother and why not, you have nothing else to do right?

The majority of fights it is beneficial for the boss to be parked, as such the tank is parked. The tank gets to chain in an add or two, throw out a few warhorns, hooray! They are controlling the battlefield, trekking, taunting!! LOL!!! The rest of the time when you are standing there with your finger tied to block at least you can hope that your team mates royally screw up so you can come to the rescue and do something interesting for a change.

commdt

OK, kids, I've had this enough [snip] but I guess its time to start theorycrafting already

Like what about
Front bar: Dragon/Jorvuld - 1H/Shield
BackBar: Particular Asylum weapon/random destro/random anything else
Rings, neck, Waist - 4 jorvuld
Other slots - 4 dragon
Monster set - Bloodspawn for this case or traditional Lord Warden

So DDs buff their crit chance (like Mother Sorrow/Leviathan, Thieve) to utilize nearly 100% uptime of major force

[Edited to remove hate speech]

SirCritical

Aedaryl wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Hey everyone . Been doing some testing and ran one of the new dungeons with a DK tank in PTS today . Nerfs to PvE Tank sustain is quite high sadly . I am hoping this thread will help you understand what is going on and/or find a way around it .

BLOCK COST

Base block cost reduced to 1730 from 2160 .

Live patch block cost calculation :

Block Cost = (( 2160 * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) (1-Fortress)) - Shield-Play) * (1-Defensive Posture)

Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 88 .

And here is the new one =

Block Cost = (( 1730 - Shield-Play ) * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) ( 1-Fortress)) * (1-Defensive Posture)

Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 336 .

Now , the important part is , how effective Shield-Play is .

Let's do two different setups . First one with 3 Shield-Play enchants , second one with none .

First setup has 336 block cost while the second one has 520 . Looking at the difference , Shield-Play enchants doesn't seem to be as effective as before . 3 enchants give you a block cost reduction of 184 , which was 609 before the nerf . This brings up the question . Shield-Play enchants are worth it or not ?

I think the answer lies in what kind of fight you will be tanking in . For example , while tanking axes , Shield-Play enchants will win without a doubt while Magicka Recovery enchants perform better in fights where you don't block as much . I would say Stamina Cost Reduction could be useful as well but they get their share from diminishing returns too and there isn't really a lot of skills that cost stamina except Pierce Armor and Heroic Slash . To sum it up , I think we have to keep different jewelries with different enchants on them , for different fights .

While running one of the new dungeons , I tried 3 Magicka Recovery glyphs on jewelry . My build was Ebon/Alkosh/Lord Warden , 8 Sturdy , all tri-stat enchants as an Imperial . Classic trials tank build in other words . I was running Lord Mundus and Equilibrium . Being honest with you , I had issues whenever I permablocked . I had to drop my block and throw some heavy attacks time to time . You actually can keep permablocking with just Equilibrium and Igneous Shield spam , especially with the help of potions and Battle Roar passive , it is quite easy as long as you have a decent healer . Still , this doesn't matter because you will have to support your team with usage of other skills , costing time and resources .

SYNERGIES AND ALKOSH

Another nerf we need to talk about is Orb and Spear synergy . The cooldown increased to 30 seconds from 20 seconds . This is a straight nerf to Alkosh and sustain . I don't know why this happened , even though ZOS says it's because they are not triggering the Global Cooldown anymore . I don't see it being a good reason for such a strong nerf like this .

There are some more nerfs to Alkosh wearing tanks and Stamina DDs . Such as ;

Blood Funnel and Blood Feast (Blood Altar & morphs) : Increased the radius of the prompt to 28 meters.
Radiate (Inner Fire & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the taunted enemy.
Spawn Broodlings, Black Widows, and Arachnophobia (Trapping Webs & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the webbed enemy.

With these changes , I don't see Alkosh being as good as before even though you could use it on both tanks and still get high uptime . Only synergies you will be using are Conduit and Orbs/Shards as a tank , which makes Alkosh uptime really low when solo and worse compared to current live version .

With the new CP increase , DDs will get less and less benefits from damage oriented CPs . I think it is time for DDs to cover the lack of penetration with the extra CP and let tanks use some other support set .

It almost looks like ZOS wants to make Alkosh useless (both for tanks and melee DDs) but it is such a good set , I hope ZOS will revent some of these changes so we can keep using it more effectively .

OFF BALANCE AND LIGHTNING STAFF

Another important change is about Off Balance . I know a lot of tanks use Lightning Staff on their back bar for better Crusher uptime and some help with Off Balance . With the new block cost changes and Off Balance changes , I think Lightning Staff is not useful anymore . During my testing runs , I used a Frost Staff without the Tri-Focus passive . If you take that passive , your Magicka will be RIP while on back bar . It is really , really bad . I do not recommend it to anyone . Just don't take the passive and try to stay as low amount time as possible on your back bar .

I think keeping a Destro Staff on back bar is still a very good strat for better Crusher uptime , whether it be Frost , Lightning or Flame . Frost preferred obviously .

CLASS DIFFERENCE

Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .

FINAL WORDS

It almost looks like to me that ZOS wants tanks to drop support sets and wear sets that will give them self-sustain , tankiness etc. Tanking is and always been a support role in this game and should stay that way . These changes will make quite a lot of PvE tanks to stop playing their tank and play some other role . No offense to PvP players but these changes are hilarious just because some players fails to kill a tank in Cyrodiil . I think a lot of people on forums read that one thread where some guy kills 10 high-rank players (all of them had cost increase poisons) on his own as a permablock DK . What a joke ... Well guess what , there are already too few tanks in PvE and these changes will make some of them quit their role . I remember in Morrowind where ZOS introduced all the sustain nerfs and almost half of my raiding group quit the game because how boring it was to play . Now the same thing is happening to this small PvE tanking community that makes me wonder how many will continue . I know that this is only the first week of PTS and there will be changes but for now , this is what I think . I am hoping for better changes coming in the next several weeks .

Thanks for reading ,

Liofa

There is a lot of *** in your Final Words.

PvP Tanky damage meta doesn't use block cost glyphs. All the mates that are playing block based builds don't need block cost reduction glyph for sustain block.

You speak about things you don't know.

In fact the buff to base block cost will buff theze cancer build in PvP.

If ZoS think block cost glyph nerf will fix PvP, they are wrong.

Block cost glyphs always has been a PvE thing.

ZoS nerfed PvE tanking and buffed the PvP one. No one is happy trust me.

I agree with your conclusion, and laughed on all the other stuff there

Rugel

This only has bad things implicated in hard mode veteran trials because a few people couldn't kill a troll shield build in cyrodiil.

SirCritical

Couldn't conclude better.

Olupajmibanan

Hybrid templar tank is good as well in proper hands.

Werewolf Hide seems like perfect replacement for alkosh. My guess is that new tank meta will shift towards ultigen sets and could look like this MT:Bloodspawn/Dragon/Werewolf and OT: Lord Warden/Dragon/Ebon

IwakuraLain42

Didn't they told us on the last ESO Live show that this patch would bring changes to (some) boss fights allowing for more "strategic play" ? Unless I'm mistaken there is nothing in the patch notes describing such changes. Are these ninja fixes or did they promised something they couldn't keep ?

aeowulf

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

My bars look exactly the same except War Horn becomes Permafrost, Inner Rage becomes Corrupting Pollin, and Pierce Armor becomes Shimmering Shield/Siege Shield.

So they're not exactly the same as you stated? They are infact 25% different.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

No, playing a block/taunt just means you haven't progressed to everything you can do. I do permablock and l'm am block casting everything on my bar. I only drop block when I need the more mobility.

A block/taunt tank does cast other things, not literally just hold block & press taunt. That's the description of the primary features of the play stye.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

PvP tanking is the same as PvE, crowd control, enemy positioning, absorb damage.

They are not the same. one is PvE, one is PvP, one has scripted 100% predictable responses from mobs, the other is less predictable. You've already already confirmed they are different by having significantly (25%) different bar set ups. If they were the same, you'd have the same bars. Also taunt features heavily in PvE. There is however an overlap. If you limit yourself to being a tank in PvP you are doing yourself a disservice. There is also no role selector for campaigns (thankfully)

Either way round 'fun' is pretty important for a game, and tanking isn't fun right now, especially not on non-dk/warden, nor is sat in the group finder queue for an eon.

Rugel

Player made metas are never going to go away.

I main a warden tank, and I played a DK before having said Warden.

Some of you argue that the player made meta of Alkosh / Destro staff back bar is negative and that change is good. Player made innovations like this is what inspired a long time playing PvE players to keep logging in and subscribing, buying your cash shop items.

This change is without a doubt a direct result of people getting salty about permablock builds in pvp. Guess what will happen each time you try to nerf things as a result of PvP, you demotivate your PvE crowd while dedicated PvP'ers find new ways to win easily in PvP leading to another player made meta nerf.

This change undoubtedly will discourage Non-Dk / Warden tanks from serious veteran trial goals.

People have been calling for the separation of PvE and PvP balancing for a long time.

It's in everyone's interest that you, ZoS, consider trying to separate balances to avoid burning out your player base.

Maura_Neysa

aeowulf wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

My bars look exactly the same except War Horn becomes Permafrost, Inner Rage becomes Corrupting Pollin, and Pierce Armor becomes Shimmering Shield/Siege Shield.

So they're not exactly the same as you stated? They are infact 25% different.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

No, playing a block/taunt just means you haven't progressed to everything you can do. I do permablock and l'm am block casting everything on my bar. I only drop block when I need the more mobility.

A block/taunt tank does cast other things, not literally just hold block & press taunt. That's the description of the primary features of the play stye.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

PvP tanking is the same as PvE, crowd control, enemy positioning, absorb damage.

They are not the same. one is PvE, one is PvP, one has scripted 100% predictable responses from mobs, the other is less predictable. You've already already confirmed they are different by having significantly (25%) different bar set ups. If they were the same, you'd have the same bars. Also taunt features heavily in PvE. There is however an overlap. If you limit yourself to being a tank in PvP you are doing yourself a disservice. There is also no role selector for campaigns (thankfully)

Either way round 'fun' is pretty important for a game, and tanking isn't fun right now, especially not on non-dk/warden, nor is sat in the group finder queue for an eon.

If you want to describe a tank by its primary function its crowd control, taunt is just one of the tools for that. Even in PvP where getting someone to focus there attention on you isnt just one button it is still what I do. I'm part by playing boldly being the closest enemy, rez get attention, I'm a vampire so my health bar often looks like I'm in more trouble than I am. Given the chance I'll be keeping my CC up and cc is what kills 90% of the time. You get a player to the point where they cant avoid everything being dished out. There is a reason CC is a staple of very PvP build, if you ad in someone who is constantly supplying it, your chance of landing your combo at the right time go way up.

100% predictable response, there is a since telling you the answer to that one. Sociology, people do in fact behave in entirely predictable ways. Glitch and skipped mechanics mean NPC do not also behave in predictable ways.

If you dont enjoy tanking then I am sorry for that. I most certainly do, and dumbing down the role isn't the way to get more tanks. Its the way to loss the ones there are.

Liofa

Rugel wrote: »

This change undoubtedly will discourage Non-Dk / Warden tanks from serious veteran trial goals.

Warden tanks are RIP too . Take a look at all of that Off Balance changes . mDK PvE DPS is even more garbage than what it already is now . Shock Blockade will be replaced by Fire Blockade . Engulfing Flames is a must to use skill for a tank . It will be one of the best debuffs in the game for any PvE content . I was playing a Warden Tank for months until I saw these changes . I already made my DK tank ready for next patch . It is not about sustain at this point . It is all about group support . I could understand if DK had the best sustain but they have literally everything best and that annoys me a lot . One class having access to a skill that increases DPS of each DD by at least 3-4k while other classes don't is absurd . I still don't understand how ZOS is not aware this huge imbalance

Asardes

They nerfed Magicka DK DPS to make tanking a meaningful choice for most players. Put that BSW in storage and grab the Torug

GreatGildersleeve

Liofa wrote: »

Rugel wrote: »

This change undoubtedly will discourage Non-Dk / Warden tanks from serious veteran trial goals.

I still don't understand how ZOS is not aware this huge imbalance

But they do know it. I paraphrase slightly, but I distinctly remember Gina saying on an ESO live that DKs were the tanking class.

I started playing shortly after launch and mained a sorc tank until I evolved into running vet trials. No trials guild I’ve been in would let me run until I rolled a dk. ZoS can try and balance classes so they can all tank effectively, but end game community will always want meta and, unless ZoS completely wrecks it, that will always be dk.

Knowledge

I don't understand why they want to discourage tanking. It's the least played role in the game and things like this just push people away from the role.

actosh

Once again.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/346854/non-dk-tank-suggestions-general-nb-stuff/p1

Its not like they wouldnt get ideas from the community(dont mean mine, others often post cool ideas)

Masel

In anything other than veteran trials, I can only recommend running vicious ophidian on a tank. You can just stand there and have your groupmates kill something and you're still going to get that 2150 stamina and major expedition. And you only need it on front bar. You'll have stamina management as you've never seen it before and permanent increased movement speed.

Best beginner tanking set in dragonstar arena and all harder dungeons, as there's just always adds who die

usmcjdking

I really miss being able to repent Engine Guardian. This was a very unique method of sustain for Templar tank that was torn away for no specific reason whatsoever.

BlazingDynamo

Tanking is a mess in this game. I considered Warden tank after NB got shafted out of the role but now I can see they will be a grimp to any serious end game guilds. I refuse to make a DK tank. No thanks I'll just stay out of it until I can competitively tank on my NB again.

paulsimonps

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Tanking is a mess in this game. I considered Warden tank after NB got shafted out of the role but now I can see they will be a grimp to any serious end game guilds. I refuse to make a DK tank. No thanks I'll just stay out of it until I can competitively tank on my NB again.

@BlazingDynamo

@Liofa runs a Warden PvE Tank in end game and is very successful with it. I don't think people see Wardens as that far from the DKs in terms of Tanking, and honestly they really aren't. There is some very nice differences with the two that makes the unique to play but at the same time to both offer what most teams want.

code65536

paulsimonps wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Tanking is a mess in this game. I considered Warden tank after NB got shafted out of the role but now I can see they will be a grimp to any serious end game guilds. I refuse to make a DK tank. No thanks I'll just stay out of it until I can competitively tank on my NB again.

@BlazingDynamo

@Liofa runs a Warden PvE Tank in end game and is very successful with it. I don't think people see Wardens as that far from the DKs in terms of Tanking, and honestly they really aren't. There is some very nice differences with the two that makes the unique to play but at the same time to both offer what most teams want.

Off-balance changes mean magicka DPS will switch back to Fire Blockade next patch.

This requires that there be Engulfing Flames in the group.

The last time Fire Blockade was the meta, the engulfing slave in most raid groups was a mDK DPS. But things are not looking good for mDKs next patch, which means that the job of engulfing slave will now fall on the tank.

Wardens are fine this patch. But they will be at a disadvantage next patch as a result, unless mDK DPS somehow gets a big PvE boost in the final weeks of PTS.

paulsimonps

code65536 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Tanking is a mess in this game. I considered Warden tank after NB got shafted out of the role but now I can see they will be a grimp to any serious end game guilds. I refuse to make a DK tank. No thanks I'll just stay out of it until I can competitively tank on my NB again.

@BlazingDynamo

@Liofa runs a Warden PvE Tank in end game and is very successful with it. I don't think people see Wardens as that far from the DKs in terms of Tanking, and honestly they really aren't. There is some very nice differences with the two that makes the unique to play but at the same time to both offer what most teams want.

Off-balance changes mean magicka DPS will switch back to Fire Blockade next patch.

This requires that there be Engulfing Flames in the group.

The last time Fire Blockade was the meta, the engulfing slave in most raid groups was a mDK DPS. But things are not looking good for mDKs next patch, which means that the job of engulfing slave will now fall on the tank.

Wardens are fine this patch. But they will be at a disadvantage next patch as a result, unless mDK DPS somehow gets a big PvE boost in the final weeks of PTS.

Ah yea...... forgot about that....

Liofa

code65536 wrote: »

Off-balance changes mean magicka DPS will switch back to Fire Blockade next patch.

This requires that there be Engulfing Flames in the group.

The last time Fire Blockade was the meta, the engulfing slave in most raid groups was a mDK DPS. But things are not looking good for mDKs next patch, which means that the job of engulfing slave will now fall on the tank.

Wardens are fine this patch. But they will be at a disadvantage next patch as a result, unless mDK DPS somehow gets a big PvE boost in the final weeks of PTS.

Exactly . Which is why after all successful raids with my Warden tank , I stopped raiding with it and got my DK tank ready for next patch . After this point , it is not about sustain . It is not about tankiness . DK will be the one and only competitive tank class choice because nothing can beat Engulfing Flames unless , as you said , ZOS makes a huge change to mDK DPS . Which is very unlikely

Bevik

Liofa wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Off-balance changes mean magicka DPS will switch back to Fire Blockade next patch.

This requires that there be Engulfing Flames in the group.

The last time Fire Blockade was the meta, the engulfing slave in most raid groups was a mDK DPS. But things are not looking good for mDKs next patch, which means that the job of engulfing slave will now fall on the tank.

Wardens are fine this patch. But they will be at a disadvantage next patch as a result, unless mDK DPS somehow gets a big PvE boost in the final weeks of PTS.

Exactly . Which is why after all successful raids with my Warden tank , I stopped raiding with it and got my DK tank ready for next patch . After this point , it is not about sustain . It is not about tankiness . DK will be the one and only competitive tank class choice because nothing can beat Engulfing Flames unless , as you said , ZOS makes a huge change to mDK DPS . Which is very unlikely

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, and welcome to our latest combat update. We have been busy going through your PTS feedback for Update 17, which is largely where our combat-related focus has been. To restate our main goals for this update:

• Improve Synergy responsiveness and power to promote better group gameplay
• Improve interrupt rulesets so that there is more interesting and tactical interrupt gameplay
• Improve the Off Balance status effect so it is more useful for everyone

As we near the end of this PTS cycle, we will continue fixing reported bugs and plan to make a few more adjustments to combat balance. You can expect to see some adjustments to Off Balance, iterations on Synergy cooldowns and updates to abilities that fall outside of our Block and Dodge rulesets. A huge thank you to those of you that have experienced the changes first hand and provided feedback. Your feedback and testing results are invaluable to us.

On a different note, we’d like to talk to you about our future plans for these combat updates. We’ve seen some great conversation come out of these (and we thank you all for staying constructive as we asked). Starting after this combat update, we will be shifting to doing these quarterly rather than monthly. As you’ve noticed, most of our major combat changes arrive in our quarterly game updates, and we’d like to utilize our written combat updates to give you an early look at what we’re planning. We were finding that subsequent combat updates were becoming “we’re still working on the things we mentioned before” without providing much substance. We want these combat updates to be both meaningful and impactful – changing them to quarterly will ensure that’s the case.

We still plan to keep you informed in between the larger quarterly updates, and we have some other related plans in the works that we’re really excited to share with you; it’s a bit too early to talk about them now, but we’ll divulge more information as soon as we can. Please continue posting your feedback here, both involving combat and how we can better communicate information to you.

Still 2 more patches to go so. Atleast we have PTS to test things out and anything can be changed for the best.

Gralor

Liofa wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Off-balance changes mean magicka DPS will switch back to Fire Blockade next patch.

This requires that there be Engulfing Flames in the group.

The last time Fire Blockade was the meta, the engulfing slave in most raid groups was a mDK DPS. But things are not looking good for mDKs next patch, which means that the job of engulfing slave will now fall on the tank.

Wardens are fine this patch. But they will be at a disadvantage next patch as a result, unless mDK DPS somehow gets a big PvE boost in the final weeks of PTS.

Exactly . Which is why after all successful raids with my Warden tank , I stopped raiding with it and got my DK tank ready for next patch . After this point , it is not about sustain . It is not about tankiness . DK will be the one and only competitive tank class choice because nothing can beat Engulfing Flames unless , as you said , ZOS makes a huge change to mDK DPS . Which is very unlikely

Watch out what you wish for. Before they buff mDKs or revert some of the off-balance changes they will nerf Engulfing Flames, that’s for sure.

Maura_Neysa

Liofa wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Off-balance changes mean magicka DPS will switch back to Fire Blockade next patch.

This requires that there be Engulfing Flames in the group.

The last time Fire Blockade was the meta, the engulfing slave in most raid groups was a mDK DPS. But things are not looking good for mDKs next patch, which means that the job of engulfing slave will now fall on the tank.

Wardens are fine this patch. But they will be at a disadvantage next patch as a result, unless mDK DPS somehow gets a big PvE boost in the final weeks of PTS.

Exactly . Which is why after all successful raids with my Warden tank , I stopped raiding with it and got my DK tank ready for next patch . After this point , it is not about sustain . It is not about tankiness . DK will be the one and only competitive tank class choice because nothing can beat Engulfing Flames unless , as you said , ZOS makes a huge change to mDK DPS . Which is very unlikely

I'm on console so I haven't tested, but how in the world is it not going to be about sustain when block cost is over tripling? I understand that engulfing will replace Off-Balance, but how is that different from a Templar Tank with PotL verses bringing along the single Stamplar? Bring along a single mDK and you have Engulfing and infinite chains. They're already must haves in maw and HoF.
With the block cost changes that should make Wardens an even stronger choice. Maybe even switch it to Warden main DK off.

Either way I wont be changing because my DK tank is absolute garbage solo, good for writs is about all. While my Warden is still fun solo just enough slower that I avoid trash mobs out in the world rather then spend 15 seconds to kill them.

xaraan

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

So after watching yesterdays ESO Live I think PvE tanking isn't getting hit nearly so hard as I originally thought. Here's why, with synergies no longer being on globle cool down it means they no longer have to shore space with our skills. They are becoming a tanks weave skill. Meaning we will be able to synergize once per second instead. Instead of 1- skill, 2 - skill, 3 - bar swap+sk ill, 4 - skill. It can be 1 - synergy+skill, 2 -synergy+skill, 3- synergy+bar swap+skill. Provide the synergies are available this will be a big boost to resource return via undaunted passives. Xbox so I wont be able to test it until its live. Just feels like this was what was between the lines of what @wrobel was saying on ESO Live

Picking up synergies was always a bigger issue for dps than tanks. Usually people are away from tanks and we were able to pick them up still while doing things like blocking, we aren't spamming a skill as constantly as they are. Sometimes it was annoying, but it wasn't nearly as bad as what the other players on the team worried about.

Overall, the synergy being nerfed to 30 second cooldown will end up being a nerf 90% of the time to me as a tank.

xaraan

Nolic1 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I think the era of the support tank might be going the way of the dodo. ZOS has been, for a long time, trying to shy tanks away from secondary supports sets that focus on buffing/debuffing DPS numbers through straight up nerfs in an attempt to force tanks into more selfish gear.

I think this has fewer implications for tanking than it does for endgame DPS, damage boosters that are typically provided by tanks are going to be harder to actually maintain.

This is right on the money. You can tell by the way they create sets aimed at tanks vs. healers - I mean, Alkosh isn't a tanking set, it's a dps set and became the go-to tanking set for a long time - zos knows this, they know what people want out of tanks and they aren't giving it.

Instead we get a set that's about doing a heavy attack and getting even more resources back while healers get a set aimed at giving them buff uptimes. (the heavy attack set is funny b/c half of their fights don't even give you much time to squeeze in a heavy attack and if you fail in half of those, you die from a one shot). Why tanks have been relegated to taunt monkeys and not allowed to be full support is really making the only role I love in the game unappealing. I enjoyed doing much more for my team than stab boss, hold block and do heavy attack so I keep rinse and repeat.

I've said this a million times already I know, but if ZoS had rolled out all the changes to tanking/heavy armor/shields that they have since Morrowind in one patch, the community would be up-in-arms about it, but doing it patch by patch, they are slowly ruining it while people argue about how bad a change really is and if they can deal with it.

The devs I will say have been doing some good with a lot of the changes they have made by allowing more options to be more effective in many ways but it is a direct effect on the meta tanking and it could or could not be that the did not intend tanks to be that way. But I can not say for sure cause I do not know what there intended set ups are we as player are just given tools to use to make the builds and use what we feel is the best options and that right now and for over a year has mostly been meta so I am sure they are trying to open more options up with most of the changes.

I don't disparage the idea of making more options for builds, but I don't like to see it done by nerfing a roles base abilities so much that sets like the one that gives you more stats back for a heavy attack become more appealing. (Not that I think people will run it that much, but it shows you their line of reasoning imo.)

There are a lot of little interesting things you could do with sets for tanking that would increase group synergy and I think that is what we need added. There are a few that have cool uses (Imperium, maybe Lunar Bastion) but having a variety of sets that do different things like that, whether offensive like Alkosh's five piece (even if it was a little smaller of a pen number if attached to heavy armor) or defensive like Imperium - that were all somewhat useful in various situations - would give tanks some variety.

The selfish tanking sets are already there - the ones that make you a super tank at the cost of group synergy and the resource sets are there (the new heavy attack set, Black Rose - even though they still need to un-nerf it after they nerfed the passive it buffs - and regen sets like Path, Seducer, etc). But what we are short on are group synergy sets. As of now we have to look at running a medium set (Alkosh) or the new light set (Guidance) which means no healthy jewelry and perhaps a buffed side-stat we aren't interested in. And frankly, neither of those were meant for tanking by design (and alkosh is especially horrible with bad uptime and zero benefit to tanks from 2/3/4 pieces). I mean, look at torug's pact - it's a "go-to" tanking set now just for giving 700 more pen to infused crusher and a little more uptime and it's not even that great of a set tbh. Tanks are starved to provide group synergy and top trials groups will always be pushing a tank to run anything that gives them .1% more dps, no matter how much harder it makes tanking - but so many other runs in the game can need different types of support (HoT's, shields, etc.) that I think more of those options should be there.

I'd also say ZoS doesn't understand much about the role when most of the tanking sets are just - here have some health as the two piece, oh, and some more health as the 3 piece, oh and some healing in. Not that it doesn't have it's place, but look at how much they've kicked resources where it hurts, give us more regen (not health unless the whole set is aimed that way), they could even add like a 2% cost reduction as 2/3/4 piece style bonus like they did with adding spell pen in the last round of armor sets they did. But ZoS would think - oh, we've nerfed blocking into the ground, so now we can add this awesome set that gives you a 5 piece bonus of block cost reduction will be desired - yes (sarcasm if you miss it) thank you for giving us the ability to do what we used to be able to do by giving up a five piece bonus.