PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

Liofa · January 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

I'm on console so I haven't tested, but how in the world is it not going to be about sustain when block cost is over tripling? I understand that engulfing will replace Off-Balance, but how is that different from a Templar Tank with PotL verses bringing along the single Stamplar? Bring along a single mDK and you have Engulfing and infinite chains. They're already must haves in maw and HoF.
With the block cost changes that should make Wardens an even stronger choice. Maybe even switch it to Warden main DK off.

Either way I wont be changing because my DK tank is absolute garbage solo, good for writs is about all. While my Warden is still fun solo just enough slower that I avoid trash mobs out in the world rather then spend 15 seconds to kill them.

It is not about sustain because no one will take a tank that cannot apply Engulfing Flames even though they have amazing sustain .

The difference is , a Templar can actually pull high numbers and support the team even more with War Machine , unlike mDK . Even if there isn't a Templar in the group , PotL is something healers run .

mDKs are not a must have if you have good tanks . Tanks are doing all the chaining themselves for more than a year . I've never heard a group that runs a mDK in competitive runs because they have chains . Last time I saw this was when MoL first came out and they were using Siege Shield to increase range of chains . mDK DPS is in a really bad place in live server (actually the worst DPS spec) and will be even worse in next patch . So no , they are not must haves at all .

I played a Warden tank in almost every end-game content and had really good scores with it . I know how it works and I can say that after these changes , there will be fights that Warden will have issues where DK tanks can laugh at .

Btw , this thread is about trials and/or end-game content . No need to talk about Overland stuff that one can easily faceroll while naked .

xaraan · January 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

I really miss being able to repent Engine Guardian. This was a very unique method of sustain for Templar tank that was torn away for no specific reason whatsoever.

Agree. This was a neat little niche use that was not at all way OP in pve or pvp and gave a little something to templars (and even forced them to run this particular set to get that benefit). Considering templars are already not the best at tanking (when I think they should be much better than they are) it was a bad change.

code65536 · January 2018

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

how in the world is it not going to be about sustain when block cost is over tripling?

It's tripling only if you are currently spec'ed fully into block cost reduction. That is, full sturdy with all block cost enchants. For me, I'm not running full sturdy right now (but I will next patch), and in my case, block costs are going up maybe 20%. And let's face it, the old minimum block cost was pretty ridiculous, which is in part why I never got mine that low--I didn't need to.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

I understand that engulfing will replace Off-Balance, but how is that different from a Templar Tank with PotL verses bringing along the single Stamplar?

Because a stamplar will handily outperform a mag DK, so having a mag DK taking up one of the melee positions will hurt your overall group damage output. Furthermore, the more stamina you have, the more mileage you can get out of sets like NMG, Sunder, etc. As I said earlier, this wouldn't be an issue if they made mag DK DPS competitive in PvE again. I don't see this as a tanking issue--it's a DPS balancing issue that has implications spilling over into tanking.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

They're already must haves in maw and HoF.

Mag DKs are useful in Maw for beginner groups, but most experienced groups don't use mag DKs on the twins and rely solely on the tanks for add control. There is no mechanic in HoF that requires a DK.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Either way I wont be changing because my DK tank is absolute garbage solo, good for writs is about all. While my Warden is still fun solo just enough slower that I avoid trash mobs out in the world rather then spend 15 seconds to kill them.

That's fair. You can clear content without being fully optimized. It's just that for the next patch, groups that want to fully optimize will not have mag DK DPS and will want tanks that can provide Engulfing. If the groups that you run with don't care about that degree of optimization, then this isn't a problem.

Nolic1 · January 2018

The changes that are being made to certain things will change how end game works and to the meta set up. But as many have pointed out alot of the options many say you can not play like templar tank which by a math standard is better at tanking Hel Ra mostly due to there passives in blocking melee over projectile like DKs makes them just a tad better then DK on tanking axes and so on. But DK is better with other things Warden will still be good they just do not have engulfing flames and yes the meta will call for the tank to run it but the Warden will be in a good place this time around because of there CC and ability to apply minor maim better then DK ever will with chilled. Sorc tanks will be wanted for off balance in some groups cause they can use infused staffs with shock enchants and be better off with them then a DK. Any class has its place in the tank role its just the meta will always call for what offers the best return on number in the end.

Now do I agree with the changes to the DK magicka wise well I do not see it as that bad of a change with the right changes in cp they can preform quite well and could offer some great group utility and even some support the group might need to clear a few runs and learn the mechanics of a trial group. But yeah there not in a great place dps wise but that does not mean they can not be used.

Fuxo · January 2018

My bet is that ZOS will nerf engulfing flames in the upcoming PTS cycles

xaraan · January 2018

I have been testing my build with less block mit to equal what it should be close to after patch and some of the boss fights are crazy with how much they tax your block. Like Velidreth's flurry attack, each stab she does takes a good 10%+ of your stam, you cannot make a heavy attack afterward b/c her heavy attack is faster than yours and she often will pull you in to eat your ulti stopping your heavy. This is not counting extra costs like taunting, pulling other ads, blocking other ads, bashing if there is a rez going on, etc. (And I'm on argonian dk so resource management is solid).

In some runs the nerf to blocking doesn't seem to hurt you too much, but the fact that ZoS never goes back and re-balances things like that. There are several tweaks that need to be made throughout dungeons and trials. You don't even want to know how fun tanking the axes were today in AA - talk about no time for heavy attacks and insane drain to stamina.

note: I'm talking about running with teams that are pretty good, maybe not best in world or anything, but we know the mechanics, have decent dps, etc. I cannot imagine how hard it would be for groups that aren't experienced.

The nerf to blocking needs to be corrected a bit before live IMO, it's too strong of a change. Whether they make the jewelry enchants more worthwhile or some other change, but I know they are not going to put the work in to rebalance boss fights.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

So in other words, what I predicted is coming to pass. The changes are starting to make the cost of blocking outstrip tanks ability to manage they're resources.

It was inevitable.

Nolic1 · January 2018

If you adjust your max stamina you can compensate for the higher block costs Nord works good Orc and yes even argonian but they do not have as good of stam. If you go up to about 20k to 25k stam you can be good with the changes to block cost.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

If you adjust your max stamina you can compensate for the higher block costs Nord works good Orc and yes even argonian but they do not have as good of stam. If you go up to about 20k to 25k stam you can be good with the changes to block cost.

Yeah, but give it time. Eventually, you wont be able to balance you're stamina costs with the stat investment it'll take into health to be able to withstand the larger raid damage bursts.

In other words, the nerfs will outpace you're ability to mitigate damage. And it's not that far off, at this rate. It wont take very much to tip the scale, it might be another block nerf, it might be a change to mitigation that leaves you more dependant on health...but it'll happen.

victoriana-blue · January 2018

The longer this PTS goes, the less optimistic I become about NB tanking. I'm glad this thread is still going because I'd rather be prepared, but these changes will be rough for vet dlc dungeons and my last hopes of (off-)tanking vet trials are disappearing.

Nolic1 wrote: »

If you adjust your max stamina you can compensate for the higher block costs Nord works good Orc and yes even argonian but they do not have as good of stam. If you go up to about 20k to 25k stam you can be good with the changes to block cost.

Damn, going up that much stamina would substantially reduce the magicka available for utility abilities. This is not good news.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

Honestly I say, play normal, run a build you consider fun and let it be at this point, because that's basicly all that's left. I dont really think it'll take too long for tanking to be nerfed again on another cornerstone and fall apart.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

I played a Warden tank in almost every end-game content and had really good scores with it . I know how it works and I can say that after these changes , there will be fights that Warden will have issues where DK tanks can laugh at .

Btw , this thread is about trials and/or end-game content . No need to talk about Overland stuff that one can easily faceroll while naked .

What issues? This all sounds like a DPS drove a change.

code65536 wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Either way I wont be changing because my DK tank is absolute garbage solo, good for writs is about all. While my Warden is still fun solo just enough slower that I avoid trash mobs out in the world rather then spend 15 seconds to kill them.

That's fair. You can clear content without being fully optimized. It's just that for the next patch, groups that want to fully optimize will not have mag DK DPS and will want tanks that can provide Engulfing. If the groups that you run with don't care about that degree of optimization, then this isn't a problem.

Well thats good to hear, while I'm interested in that level it's extremely hard to find 11 other people who are who-.. I can stand to be around, to put it politely

anticlergy · January 2018

Hello. I am a long time lurker here on the forums. I have also been playing this game off and on since launch. I am just wondering if any other tank will be viable in vet trials. Now, I understand that for optimal performance, a DK is looking to be the best, but is it truly possible that it cannot be done with another tank?

Basically, I kind of feel that DK tanks are boring to an extent. And, because I come from a raiding background, I fully understand that the most optimal settup is best to get a kill. But, I wonder why ZOS would give the tools for any class to be able to tank but there is only one that works really well in Vet trials. Basically, I want to know if it is possible to be done on another class without 100% gimping a group. And, how hard would it be to convince a group to take a Nightblade tank for example?

Thanks guys.

Vahrokh · January 2018

anticlergy wrote: »

Basically, I want to know if it is possible to be done on another class without 100% gimping a group. And, how hard would it be to convince a group to take a Nightblade tank for example?

Thanks guys.

When a game balance team gets to their last death throes, they "WoWize" classes so that you get 1 spec of 1 class able to do 1 thing and that's it.

Look at what they have done to DKs and sorcs for years - and now to tanks: remove. Remove. Remove. A telltale sign is having to switch to "shared skills" (for instance, weapon / armor skill lines) because signature skills are complete garbage now.

Any diversity and flexibility - the Elder Scrolls signature vs other games - are being chipped away, rendering classes an hideous, boring, flatlined gameplay. ESO had somewhat playable healers diversity, tank diversity and PvP diversity? Take away all of that. You are nightblade or sorc? You DPS. You are DK? You tank or die. Templar? Go, heal. Go.

Total WoWization, maybe ESO game designers want a new job at Blizzard.

anticlergy · January 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

anticlergy wrote: »

Basically, I want to know if it is possible to be done on another class without 100% gimping a group. And, how hard would it be to convince a group to take a Nightblade tank for example?

Thanks guys.

When a game balance team gets to their last death throes, they "WoWize" classes so that you get 1 spec of 1 class able to do 1 thing and that's it.

Look at what they have done to DKs and sorcs for years - and now to tanks: remove. Remove. Remove. A telltale sign is having to switch to "shared skills" (for instance, weapon / armor skill lines) because signature skills are complete garbage now.

Any diversity and flexibility - the Elder Scrolls signature vs other games - are being chipped away, rendering classes an hideous, boring, flatlined gameplay. ESO had somewhat playable healers diversity, tank diversity and PvP diversity? Take away all of that. You are nightblade or sorc? You DPS. You are DK? You tank or die. Templar? Go, heal. Go.

Total WoWization, maybe ESO game designers want a new job at Blizzard.

I did not realize things were this gloomy. I will continue lurking.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

anticlergy wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

anticlergy wrote: »

Basically, I want to know if it is possible to be done on another class without 100% gimping a group. And, how hard would it be to convince a group to take a Nightblade tank for example?

Thanks guys.

When a game balance team gets to their last death throes, they "WoWize" classes so that you get 1 spec of 1 class able to do 1 thing and that's it.

Look at what they have done to DKs and sorcs for years - and now to tanks: remove. Remove. Remove. A telltale sign is having to switch to "shared skills" (for instance, weapon / armor skill lines) because signature skills are complete garbage now.

Any diversity and flexibility - the Elder Scrolls signature vs other games - are being chipped away, rendering classes an hideous, boring, flatlined gameplay. ESO had somewhat playable healers diversity, tank diversity and PvP diversity? Take away all of that. You are nightblade or sorc? You DPS. You are DK? You tank or die. Templar? Go, heal. Go.

Total WoWization, maybe ESO game designers want a new job at Blizzard.

I did not realize things were this gloomy. I will continue lurking.

My basic advice to you is A, pull all you're monitary support for now until things improve.

My longer advice, is not to even get into vet trials or dungeons until the balance team gets a clue. Because tanks are one patch away from falling apart for most vet content, and no other forms of damage mitigation are viable.

All it's gonna take is a increased importance on Stamina or health, or even magicka, and tanks are officially gimped beyond any reasonable point.

victoriana-blue · January 2018

anticlergy wrote: »

Hello. I am a long time lurker here on the forums. I have also been playing this game off and on since launch. I am just wondering if any other tank will be viable in vet trials. Now, I understand that for optimal performance, a DK is looking to be the best, but is it truly possible that it cannot be done with another tank?

Basically, I kind of feel that DK tanks are boring to an extent. And, because I come from a raiding background, I fully understand that the most optimal settup is best to get a kill. But, I wonder why ZOS would give the tools for any class to be able to tank but there is only one that works really well in Vet trials. Basically, I want to know if it is possible to be done on another class without 100% gimping a group. And, how hard would it be to convince a group to take a Nightblade tank for example?

Thanks guys.

It seems like ZOS wants to shift some of the group utility duties onto dps players by making tanks into "strategically" blocking & taunting damage absorbers, but because the player base isn't willing to sacrifice individual players' dps numbers all that the changes are doing is making tanking more difficult for non-DKs.

If you're an amazing tank and you can find a group that's willing to work with you, it's probably possible to tank vet trials as a nb if you're not on a score run. You're going to have to be ten times the tank a DK is to make up the difference in utility & abilities, because gear won't suffice and the class abilities work better in dungeons (eg refreshing path has a limited range that doesn't extend past most big trial bosses). The group is going to have to trust you, which takes time to develop, and because they'll have to adjust their strategies that group is going to have to be top tier too. The changes to shadow ward & refreshing path were good ones, we have easy access to major & minor resolve and ward, and we're the last class that can run major evasion in 5pc heavy, but we're lacking group buffs and even though bolstering darkness & shield wall are good ults you'll probably be running aggressive horn instead.

Speaking as someone who only tanks on a nightblade... I am not that tank. I have people who trust me to tank vet DLC dungeon stuff for them, but since U14 I can only do normal trials in entirely selfish sets - the changes to siphoning attacks gutted my sustain and I'm still not where my tank was pre-Morrowind. (My frustration with this could power a small city.) To be brutally honest yes, when I pug vet dungeons I sometimes get jerks who doubt a NB can tank (particularly vMA builds that rush & can solo the content), and I stopped pugging trials after someone blamed me for not holding all the adds a(n admittedly high) dps kept pulling because ~nbs can't tank~. But on the other hand I've also gotten compliments on my pug tanking and I have a great friends list of people who invite me when they're looking for a tank.

You'll probably have better luck in Halls of Fabrication than in the Craglorn trials or Asylum Sanctorum - HoF is built with spaces to regen resources with heavy attacks, while Craglorn trials still have permablock bosses and Olms hits like a freight train. CP helps but doesn't make up for the NB's problem with utility and mirage is iffy.

victoriana-blue · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Honestly I say, play normal, run a build you consider fun and let it be at this point, because that's basicly all that's left. I dont really think it'll take too long for tanking to be nerfed again on another cornerstone and fall apart.

After U17 happens, I might have to start threads about finding your own challenges when your tank can solo dungeons but isn't welcome in vet trials. ;p

(Goddamn is it frustrating, though.)

anticlergy · January 2018

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Honestly I say, play normal, run a build you consider fun and let it be at this point, because that's basicly all that's left. I dont really think it'll take too long for tanking to be nerfed again on another cornerstone and fall apart.

After U17 happens, I might have to start threads about finding your own challenges when your tank can solo dungeons but isn't welcome in vet trials. ;p

(Goddamn is it frustrating, though.)

Dam, that's rough lol. Well, I'll hold out hope that another tank will be viable outside of DK in the future. Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate it.

rustic_potato · January 2018

anticlergy wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

anticlergy wrote: »

Basically, I want to know if it is possible to be done on another class without 100% gimping a group. And, how hard would it be to convince a group to take a Nightblade tank for example?

Thanks guys.

When a game balance team gets to their last death throes, they "WoWize" classes so that you get 1 spec of 1 class able to do 1 thing and that's it.

Look at what they have done to DKs and sorcs for years - and now to tanks: remove. Remove. Remove. A telltale sign is having to switch to "shared skills" (for instance, weapon / armor skill lines) because signature skills are complete garbage now.

Any diversity and flexibility - the Elder Scrolls signature vs other games - are being chipped away, rendering classes an hideous, boring, flatlined gameplay. ESO had somewhat playable healers diversity, tank diversity and PvP diversity? Take away all of that. You are nightblade or sorc? You DPS. You are DK? You tank or die. Templar? Go, heal. Go.

Total WoWization, maybe ESO game designers want a new job at Blizzard.

I did not realize things were this gloomy. I will continue lurking.

Things are not as gloomy as some of these forum warriors would like you to believe. Min maxing exists in every game.
Unless you are looking to do that every class is viable for all roles. I have run vet DLC dungeons with DK healers and sorc tanks. I prolly would have saved 10 mins if we did it with a DK tank and Templar heals but my friends and I were goofing off and we had a lot of fun doing it. End of the day it is your call on how you want to play the game.

If you want to absolutely min max then

MT- DK
OT- DK, Warden, Templar
DPS - all classes are viable.
M heals- Templar
O heals- Templar, warden, NB.

IZZEFlameLash · January 2018

Tbh, I don't know how this came to be. I mean, I have not seen unkillable permablock tanks in Cyrodiil lately. And there are way too many one shot if you don't "specialize" in block mechanics in the PvE side of the game. Not sure why they keep nerfing.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

anticlergy wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

anticlergy wrote: »

Basically, I want to know if it is possible to be done on another class without 100% gimping a group. And, how hard would it be to convince a group to take a Nightblade tank for example?

Thanks guys.

When a game balance team gets to their last death throes, they "WoWize" classes so that you get 1 spec of 1 class able to do 1 thing and that's it.

Look at what they have done to DKs and sorcs for years - and now to tanks: remove. Remove. Remove. A telltale sign is having to switch to "shared skills" (for instance, weapon / armor skill lines) because signature skills are complete garbage now.

Any diversity and flexibility - the Elder Scrolls signature vs other games - are being chipped away, rendering classes an hideous, boring, flatlined gameplay. ESO had somewhat playable healers diversity, tank diversity and PvP diversity? Take away all of that. You are nightblade or sorc? You DPS. You are DK? You tank or die. Templar? Go, heal. Go.

Total WoWization, maybe ESO game designers want a new job at Blizzard.

I did not realize things were this gloomy. I will continue lurking.

Things are not as gloomy as some of these forum warriors would like you to believe. Min maxing exists in every game.
Unless you are looking to do that every class is viable for all roles. I have run vet DLC dungeons with DK healers and sorc tanks. I prolly would have saved 10 mins if we did it with a DK tank and Templar heals but my friends and I were goofing off and we had a lot of fun doing it. End of the day it is your call on how you want to play the game.

If you want to absolutely min max then

MT- DK
OT- DK, Warden, Templar
DPS - all classes are viable.
M heals- Templar
O heals- Templar, warden, NB.

Pray tell. How are things not as gloomy?

RenagadeZA · January 2018

as i understood the problem was perma blocking tanks in PVP why dont they add the changes to Battle Sprit instead of screwing over pve tanks

Edit: Spelling

Bevik · January 2018

Because permablocking is a thing in PVE also.

victoriana-blue · January 2018

RenagadeZA wrote: »

as i understood the problem was perma blocking tanks in PVP why dont they add the changes to Battle Sprit instead of screwing over pve tanks

Edit: Spelling

They don't want us permablocking in PvE either - Wrobel's gone on record a few times to say that the team wants blocking to be "strategic" and has adjusted heavy attacks to make us use them more, but they haven't adjusted earlier content to take this into account.

ccfeeling · January 2018

Hey vict , I'm with you , my main is NB tank as well .
I think we could tank all DLC but we need an amazing team lol

victoriana-blue wrote: »

RenagadeZA wrote: »

as i understood the problem was perma blocking tanks in PVP why dont they add the changes to Battle Sprit instead of screwing over pve tanks

Edit: Spelling

They don't want us permablocking in PvE either - Wrobel's gone on record a few times to say that the team wants blocking to be "strategic" and has adjusted heavy attacks to make us use them more, but they haven't adjusted earlier content to take this into account.

I have no idea how we don't perma block at BF HM final phase , Im a NB tank

Asardes · January 2018

ccfeeling wrote: »

Hey vict , I'm with you , my main is NB tank as well .
I think we could tank all DLC but we need an amazing team lol

victoriana-blue wrote: »

RenagadeZA wrote: »

as i understood the problem was perma blocking tanks in PVP why dont they add the changes to Battle Sprit instead of screwing over pve tanks

Edit: Spelling

They don't want us permablocking in PvE either - Wrobel's gone on record a few times to say that the team wants blocking to be "strategic" and has adjusted heavy attacks to make us use them more, but they haven't adjusted earlier content to take this into account.

I have no idea how we don't perma block at BF HM final phase , Im a NB tank

I've done vCoS and vRoM HM on Stam NB tank using my old Tava's (has become useless for the DK), Brands of Imperium and Swarm Mother (had those lying around) and it's not hard, but for vBF I really don't see how I could do it. And it's not just the perma-blocking, but the healing too. On DK I can hit GDB a few times to heal myself if the healer isn't paying attention, but there's no way I could heal myself without healer on NB and recover from such hits. Also I would consider vFH out of reach for this kind of tank due to the unreliability of pulls at the final boss - a DK (Unrelenting Grip) or Warden (Frozen Gate) can pull all the adds on a pilar when the boss shouts often, but I can't see a NB pull that many, even with the said monster set. As for trials, I wouldn't embarrass myself bringing a NB, when I have a Stam DK and Stam Warden which can do the job much better. Poor kitty would die as soon as the Manticora or Ra Kotu look at him ...

IwakuraLain42 · January 2018

victoriana-blue wrote: »

RenagadeZA wrote: »

as i understood the problem was perma blocking tanks in PVP why dont they add the changes to Battle Sprit instead of screwing over pve tanks

Edit: Spelling

They don't want us permablocking in PvE either - Wrobel's gone on record a few times to say that the team wants blocking to be "strategic" and has adjusted heavy attacks to make us use them more, but they haven't adjusted earlier content to take this into account.

Well, they claimed at the last ESO Live show that they want to adjust enemy encounters to allow that but the last PTS patch (which came after said show) didn't included any changes to the trials. Maybe they did some ninja fixes but failed to communicate that but I doubt that. Sorry, but right now I see that statement as pure propaganda.

usmcjdking · January 2018

The easiest way to get people to block strategically is to not nerf block cost lol. You can't nerf it enough to matter and people will just outfit more dramatically towards resource return when blocking.

I know this might be like a lightbulb moment to Wrobel but many other games that had blocking mechanisms simply increased the cost to block by X amount for certain attacks/periods of time.

aeowulf · January 2018

Permablock is only a feature available to some classes, DK mainly, and potentially warden. It looks like the latter will no longer be perma blocking after this patch which may well leave only DK. If ZOS want to stop permablocking they should only tweak the classes that can still do it. NB used to be able to perma block, but Morrowind changed that because a class skill was changed. Sorcs can't because they have a cast time on stamina regen. The crazy thing was my DK got better sustain from the class changes in morrowid! The forum is complaining about PVP perma blocking DK's and the fix is looking like it will be one that wil mainly affect all classes in PVE?

Honestly, I think perma blocking is/was fine, at least in PVE, but there should be sacrifices. Like increased cost of skills you 'block cast' or wearing a set that has a 5 piece that helps in some way (be either through reduced block cost, pooling the cost between mag/stam, etc) This would go quite a way to remove the expectation of tanks to be wearing DPS support sets too.

Tanking should be a lot more fun than it is. There needs to be greater balance between he classes, I really hope we'll see a class get a skill tree split today.