Make Crystal Frags Great Again!
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wsmith97ub17_ESO✭✭✭Hmm, as a mediocre stamblade, every time i poke my head out of stealth in cyrodiil, i seem to get it blown clean off by a sorc with frags.
Otoh, in the last campaign, i recall only being killed once by assassins will and that was my fault.
Frags seems mighty fine to me.It is the mind, that is the mind, confusing the mind. Do not leave the mind, oh mind, to the mind.1 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭Malamar1229 wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
The thing with lich/shackle though is that you're able to build for max damage outside of your sets, where you wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's also meant to sustain since mag sorcs are by definition not a berserker class that's supposed to put out huge damage IMO. It's supposed to use the mobility and mechanics to drain the enemy and make him ultimately unable to fight back at which point a swift burst comes to end the job. I can't seem to recall a single patch (ever since I started playing my sorc in TG) where sorcs actually went with 2 damage sets. Seducer/engine is a good example, a setup that's been played for literal years by sorcs everywhere.
I take you as an old time player, so I hope you remember Ezareth. In my opinion he's the best example of what a magsorc should be like: abuse mobility to the max and kite your opponent.
TL DR: So yeah, unless specifically built for tanking (e.g. riposte or pirate skelly) I disagree on calling setups tank builds. 2 sustain sets aren't tank builds, not even CLOSE.
Cept that scenario doesn't exist. The Stam classes out there are more mobile and sustainable than the sorc:)
I disagree, especially on the sustainable part. I have infinite sustain in open world due to high stamina pool and lich, can streak indefinitely and have resto ult to help me turtle up. Stam sorc can streak 2-3 times, I wouldn't call that more mobile.
Not gonna even start.....
Prisoner rags bis0 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭Malamar1229 wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
The thing with lich/shackle though is that you're able to build for max damage outside of your sets, where you wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's also meant to sustain since mag sorcs are by definition not a berserker class that's supposed to put out huge damage IMO. It's supposed to use the mobility and mechanics to drain the enemy and make him ultimately unable to fight back at which point a swift burst comes to end the job. I can't seem to recall a single patch (ever since I started playing my sorc in TG) where sorcs actually went with 2 damage sets. Seducer/engine is a good example, a setup that's been played for literal years by sorcs everywhere.
I take you as an old time player, so I hope you remember Ezareth. In my opinion he's the best example of what a magsorc should be like: abuse mobility to the max and kite your opponent.
TL DR: So yeah, unless specifically built for tanking (e.g. riposte or pirate skelly) I disagree on calling setups tank builds. 2 sustain sets aren't tank builds, not even CLOSE.
Cept that scenario doesn't exist. The Stam classes out there are more mobile and sustainable than the sorc:)
On top of that, the stam classes do more damage.
I tried the shackle/lich build last night and... it has some serious issues. Lich has the problem of only kicking in at low magicka, and by the time 33% comes around you’re already in deep stuff. I was running 3K-3.1K spell damage, Atro mundus, blue food, around 45-46K Max Magicka, a little less than 2K regen not counting all of the Cyrodiil resource capture bonuses.
Bottom line: It had the damage I missed with riposte. But I had to run harness with it over lightning form because it just doesn’t have the minor maim bonus. And the regen just didn’t help as much as it should, it’s a build that consistently ‘runs on or near empty’, especially when outnumbered, which for me is most of the time.
Can we switch this discussion from the “ESO dating channel” back to fixing crystal frags? Devs, we need that 10% damage back!
I fail to see how you'd have sustain issues, especially with lich. Did you try the build in a duel environment or in open world where you can reliably dark deal and LOS? If you didn't do either then you shouldn't really call the build bad as you haven't done what it's meant to do.
I have absolutely 0 sustain issues with it, so I fail to see where the problem is within the build itself. Like really I never run out when in BGs or open world. Duels are another beast entirely and I do agree that this setup is pretty bleh in there.
I just want to add in open world i have destroyed every dark deal sorc I run across. You all run Amber which is fine, hell I used to as well. But you dmg is also not optimal.0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Malamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
The thing with lich/shackle though is that you're able to build for max damage outside of your sets, where you wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's also meant to sustain since mag sorcs are by definition not a berserker class that's supposed to put out huge damage IMO. It's supposed to use the mobility and mechanics to drain the enemy and make him ultimately unable to fight back at which point a swift burst comes to end the job. I can't seem to recall a single patch (ever since I started playing my sorc in TG) where sorcs actually went with 2 damage sets. Seducer/engine is a good example, a setup that's been played for literal years by sorcs everywhere.
I take you as an old time player, so I hope you remember Ezareth. In my opinion he's the best example of what a magsorc should be like: abuse mobility to the max and kite your opponent.
TL DR: So yeah, unless specifically built for tanking (e.g. riposte or pirate skelly) I disagree on calling setups tank builds. 2 sustain sets aren't tank builds, not even CLOSE.
Cept that scenario doesn't exist. The Stam classes out there are more mobile and sustainable than the sorc:)
On top of that, the stam classes do more damage.
I tried the shackle/lich build last night and... it has some serious issues. Lich has the problem of only kicking in at low magicka, and by the time 33% comes around you’re already in deep stuff. I was running 3K-3.1K spell damage, Atro mundus, blue food, around 45-46K Max Magicka, a little less than 2K regen not counting all of the Cyrodiil resource capture bonuses.
Bottom line: It had the damage I missed with riposte. But I had to run harness with it over lightning form because it just doesn’t have the minor maim bonus. And the regen just didn’t help as much as it should, it’s a build that consistently ‘runs on or near empty’, especially when outnumbered, which for me is most of the time.
Can we switch this discussion from the “ESO dating channel” back to fixing crystal frags? Devs, we need that 10% damage back!
I fail to see how you'd have sustain issues, especially with lich. Did you try the build in a duel environment or in open world where you can reliably dark deal and LOS? If you didn't do either then you shouldn't really call the build bad as you haven't done what it's meant to do.
I have absolutely 0 sustain issues with it, so I fail to see where the problem is within the build itself. Like really I never run out when in BGs or open world. Duels are another beast entirely and I do agree that this setup is pretty bleh in there.
I just want to add in open world i have destroyed every dark deal sorc I run across. You all run Amber which is fine, hell I used to as well. But you dmg is also not optimal.
How is it not optimal? I'm sure you have a way of getting over 40-45k mag and 3.2k spell damage while also sustaining it well. Also the fact that you "destroyed" every dark deal sorc says nothing, first of all no good sorc should lose to another sorc in open world simply because you can stack harness and live indefinitely. So yeah, humor me on a better setup.
Inb4 riposte instead of lich, nty riposte on sorc is *** imo0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
The thing with lich/shackle though is that you're able to build for max damage outside of your sets, where you wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's also meant to sustain since mag sorcs are by definition not a berserker class that's supposed to put out huge damage IMO. It's supposed to use the mobility and mechanics to drain the enemy and make him ultimately unable to fight back at which point a swift burst comes to end the job. I can't seem to recall a single patch (ever since I started playing my sorc in TG) where sorcs actually went with 2 damage sets. Seducer/engine is a good example, a setup that's been played for literal years by sorcs everywhere.
I take you as an old time player, so I hope you remember Ezareth. In my opinion he's the best example of what a magsorc should be like: abuse mobility to the max and kite your opponent.
TL DR: So yeah, unless specifically built for tanking (e.g. riposte or pirate skelly) I disagree on calling setups tank builds. 2 sustain sets aren't tank builds, not even CLOSE.
Cept that scenario doesn't exist. The Stam classes out there are more mobile and sustainable than the sorc:)
On top of that, the stam classes do more damage.
I tried the shackle/lich build last night and... it has some serious issues. Lich has the problem of only kicking in at low magicka, and by the time 33% comes around you’re already in deep stuff. I was running 3K-3.1K spell damage, Atro mundus, blue food, around 45-46K Max Magicka, a little less than 2K regen not counting all of the Cyrodiil resource capture bonuses.
Bottom line: It had the damage I missed with riposte. But I had to run harness with it over lightning form because it just doesn’t have the minor maim bonus. And the regen just didn’t help as much as it should, it’s a build that consistently ‘runs on or near empty’, especially when outnumbered, which for me is most of the time.
Can we switch this discussion from the “ESO dating channel” back to fixing crystal frags? Devs, we need that 10% damage back!
I fail to see how you'd have sustain issues, especially with lich. Did you try the build in a duel environment or in open world where you can reliably dark deal and LOS? If you didn't do either then you shouldn't really call the build bad as you haven't done what it's meant to do.
I have absolutely 0 sustain issues with it, so I fail to see where the problem is within the build itself. Like really I never run out when in BGs or open world. Duels are another beast entirely and I do agree that this setup is pretty bleh in there.
I just want to add in open world i have destroyed every dark deal sorc I run across. You all run Amber which is fine, hell I used to as well. But you dmg is also not optimal.
Isn´t the core of the discussion that all of these people don´t run amber?
But i´d also like insight on what setup provides noticeably higher dmg than lich shackle optimised for dmg not sustain. I haven´t found one so far personally.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Pinja✭✭✭✭If your routing for more damage back a thing to remember is that a key damage set for sorcs was cut with the nerfs (Necro.) The main aspect to get back for Pvp where it's now lack luster is the stun.0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If your routing for more damage back a thing to remember is that a key damage set for sorcs was cut with the nerfs (Necro.) The main aspect to get back for Pvp where it's now lack luster is the stun.
Here’s why I’m asking for damage:
They moved the stun to the other morph (crystal blast). Just like they did with wrecking blow and dizzying swing. It’s not coming back.
However wrecking blow empowers your next attack, giving it a 20% damage bonus (utility). I’m asking for a 20% total damage bonus on frags (10% buff), since we can already empower attacks with mage guild skills.0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭If your routing for more damage back a thing to remember is that a key damage set for sorcs was cut with the nerfs (Necro.) The main aspect to get back for Pvp where it's now lack luster is the stun.
Here’s why I’m asking for damage:
They moved the stun to the other morph (crystal blast). Just like they did with wrecking blow and dizzying swing. It’s not coming back.
However wrecking blow empowers your next attack, giving it a 20% damage bonus (utility). I’m asking for a 20% total damage bonus on frags (10% buff), since we can already empower attacks with mage guild skills.
That would be fair to ask but remember wrecking blow is still a cast time ability and a melee ability.
Empower would be better suited for the crystal blast morph. Since you trade cast time for damage.Edited by Anti_Virus on January 28, 2018 6:17PMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What would be cool is if Crystal Fragments dealt its current dmg & left a small AoE snare field that dealt some dmg (i.e. actual crystal fragments) when it connects with a target.
While I do think the removal of the stun was a good thing (sorry sorc mains), the morph could definitely use some love (and Blast morph should deal same AoE dmg as it's single target dmg if you ask me).
If you compare it to other procs:- Power Lash: slightly less damage, free cost, mega heal over time (2x stronger than vigor).
- Assassin's Will: more damage, snares (stam morph +10% stam regen), 8% Minor Berserk while up, proc doesn't expire until out of combat.
Since the skill is practically a dead skill on bar when a proc isn't up, that's what we're comparing.Edited by DDuke on January 26, 2018 4:57PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What would be cool is if Crystal Fragments dealt its current dmg & left a small AoE snare field that dealt some dmg (i.e. actual crystal fragments) when it connects with a target.
While I do think the removal of the stun was a good thing (sorry sorc mains), the morph could definitely use some love (and Blast morph should deal same AoE dmg as it's single target dmg if you ask me).
If you compare it to other procs:- Power Lash: slightly less damage, free cost, mega heal over time (2x stronger than vigor).
- Assassin's Will: more damage, snares (stam morph +10% stam regen), 8% Minor Berserk while up, proc doesn't expire until out of combat.
Since the skill is practically a dead skill on bar when a proc isn't up, that's what we're comparing.
Something as simple as increasing the proccchance would also work.
I feel like i do really not want another ground aoe field as sorc. If you want to associate a dot with it make that stick to the target.
Though i have to say - from a build variety point of view the stunremoval was absolutely horrible. It destroyed the last bit of uniqueness you could put on your sorc and now you´re stuck with either cage or masterdestro.
If you want to keep it stunless atleast reduce the cost of cage as that one is rediculously expensive currently.Edited by Derra on January 26, 2018 5:12PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Malamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
The thing with lich/shackle though is that you're able to build for max damage outside of your sets, where you wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's also meant to sustain since mag sorcs are by definition not a berserker class that's supposed to put out huge damage IMO. It's supposed to use the mobility and mechanics to drain the enemy and make him ultimately unable to fight back at which point a swift burst comes to end the job. I can't seem to recall a single patch (ever since I started playing my sorc in TG) where sorcs actually went with 2 damage sets. Seducer/engine is a good example, a setup that's been played for literal years by sorcs everywhere.
I take you as an old time player, so I hope you remember Ezareth. In my opinion he's the best example of what a magsorc should be like: abuse mobility to the max and kite your opponent.
TL DR: So yeah, unless specifically built for tanking (e.g. riposte or pirate skelly) I disagree on calling setups tank builds. 2 sustain sets aren't tank builds, not even CLOSE.
Cept that scenario doesn't exist. The Stam classes out there are more mobile and sustainable than the sorc:)
On top of that, the stam classes do more damage.
I tried the shackle/lich build last night and... it has some serious issues. Lich has the problem of only kicking in at low magicka, and by the time 33% comes around you’re already in deep stuff. I was running 3K-3.1K spell damage, Atro mundus, blue food, around 45-46K Max Magicka, a little less than 2K regen not counting all of the Cyrodiil resource capture bonuses.
Bottom line: It had the damage I missed with riposte. But I had to run harness with it over lightning form because it just doesn’t have the minor maim bonus. And the regen just didn’t help as much as it should, it’s a build that consistently ‘runs on or near empty’, especially when outnumbered, which for me is most of the time.
Can we switch this discussion from the “ESO dating channel” back to fixing crystal frags? Devs, we need that 10% damage back!
I fail to see how you'd have sustain issues, especially with lich. Did you try the build in a duel environment or in open world where you can reliably dark deal and LOS? If you didn't do either then you shouldn't really call the build bad as you haven't done what it's meant to do.
I have absolutely 0 sustain issues with it, so I fail to see where the problem is within the build itself. Like really I never run out when in BGs or open world. Duels are another beast entirely and I do agree that this setup is pretty bleh in there.
I just want to add in open world i have destroyed every dark deal sorc I run across. You all run Amber which is fine, hell I used to as well. But you dmg is also not optimal.
Isn´t the core of the discussion that all of these people don´t run amber?
But i´d also like insight on what setup provides noticeably higher dmg than lich shackle optimised for dmg not sustain. I haven´t found one so far personally.
So would I actually, I can't think of any setup that provides more damage while also providing enough sustain to be able to roam around freely while in combat.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What would be cool is if Crystal Fragments dealt its current dmg & left a small AoE snare field that dealt some dmg (i.e. actual crystal fragments) when it connects with a target.
While I do think the removal of the stun was a good thing (sorry sorc mains), the morph could definitely use some love (and Blast morph should deal same AoE dmg as it's single target dmg if you ask me).
If you compare it to other procs:- Power Lash: slightly less damage, free cost, mega heal over time (2x stronger than vigor).
- Assassin's Will: more damage, snares (stam morph +10% stam regen), 8% Minor Berserk while up, proc doesn't expire until out of combat.
Since the skill is practically a dead skill on bar when a proc isn't up, that's what we're comparing.
Cool maybe, but not effective. Ground DoTs are easy to move out of and even the large and highly damaging ones so good in PvE aren't much use Vs. mobile or good opponents.
These nerfs are out of control. Of course, the 75% player base "supports" them because they think their own class has been overnerfed and deem it about time the other classes get hit to create a level playing field.
It's just a cycle that makes the game more frustrating to play.Edited by Joy_Division on January 26, 2018 5:15PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
The thing with lich/shackle though is that you're able to build for max damage outside of your sets, where you wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's also meant to sustain since mag sorcs are by definition not a berserker class that's supposed to put out huge damage IMO. It's supposed to use the mobility and mechanics to drain the enemy and make him ultimately unable to fight back at which point a swift burst comes to end the job. I can't seem to recall a single patch (ever since I started playing my sorc in TG) where sorcs actually went with 2 damage sets. Seducer/engine is a good example, a setup that's been played for literal years by sorcs everywhere.
I take you as an old time player, so I hope you remember Ezareth. In my opinion he's the best example of what a magsorc should be like: abuse mobility to the max and kite your opponent.
TL DR: So yeah, unless specifically built for tanking (e.g. riposte or pirate skelly) I disagree on calling setups tank builds. 2 sustain sets aren't tank builds, not even CLOSE.
Cept that scenario doesn't exist. The Stam classes out there are more mobile and sustainable than the sorc:)
On top of that, the stam classes do more damage.
I tried the shackle/lich build last night and... it has some serious issues. Lich has the problem of only kicking in at low magicka, and by the time 33% comes around you’re already in deep stuff. I was running 3K-3.1K spell damage, Atro mundus, blue food, around 45-46K Max Magicka, a little less than 2K regen not counting all of the Cyrodiil resource capture bonuses.
Bottom line: It had the damage I missed with riposte. But I had to run harness with it over lightning form because it just doesn’t have the minor maim bonus. And the regen just didn’t help as much as it should, it’s a build that consistently ‘runs on or near empty’, especially when outnumbered, which for me is most of the time.
Can we switch this discussion from the “ESO dating channel” back to fixing crystal frags? Devs, we need that 10% damage back!
I fail to see how you'd have sustain issues, especially with lich. Did you try the build in a duel environment or in open world where you can reliably dark deal and LOS? If you didn't do either then you shouldn't really call the build bad as you haven't done what it's meant to do.
I have absolutely 0 sustain issues with it, so I fail to see where the problem is within the build itself. Like really I never run out when in BGs or open world. Duels are another beast entirely and I do agree that this setup is pretty bleh in there.
I just want to add in open world i have destroyed every dark deal sorc I run across. You all run Amber which is fine, hell I used to as well. But you dmg is also not optimal.
Isn´t the core of the discussion that all of these people don´t run amber?
But i´d also like insight on what setup provides noticeably higher dmg than lich shackle optimised for dmg not sustain. I haven´t found one so far personally.
So would I actually, I can't think of any setup that provides more damage while also providing enough sustain to be able to roam around freely while in combat.
I´m not even talking about roaming free in combat.
I´m literally going oom with lich + shackle + eledrain when fighting competent duelists on my sorc (without using harness magica). An issue i don´t have on my other classes with way less sustain.Edited by Derra on January 26, 2018 5:24PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭What would be cool is if Crystal Fragments dealt its current dmg & left a small AoE snare field that dealt some dmg (i.e. actual crystal fragments) when it connects with a target.
While I do think the removal of the stun was a good thing (sorry sorc mains), the morph could definitely use some love (and Blast morph should deal same AoE dmg as it's single target dmg if you ask me).
If you compare it to other procs:- Power Lash: slightly less damage, free cost, mega heal over time (2x stronger than vigor).
- Assassin's Will: more damage, snares (stam morph +10% stam regen), 8% Minor Berserk while up, proc doesn't expire until out of combat.
Since the skill is practically a dead skill on bar when a proc isn't up, that's what we're comparing.
You forgot:
Power lash has now also has a cc, deals fire damage(procs burning and does higher damage against vampires maybe even higher than cfrags at least i got the feeling) and can be used as spam-able dps skill even if it did not proc.
Assassin's Will proc does not cost anything to use.
Also cfrags procs have a big indicator when it is up.
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus1 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »What would be cool is if Crystal Fragments dealt its current dmg & left a small AoE snare field that dealt some dmg (i.e. actual crystal fragments) when it connects with a target.
While I do think the removal of the stun was a good thing (sorry sorc mains), the morph could definitely use some love (and Blast morph should deal same AoE dmg as it's single target dmg if you ask me).
If you compare it to other procs:- Power Lash: slightly less damage, free cost, mega heal over time (2x stronger than vigor).
- Assassin's Will: more damage, snares (stam morph +10% stam regen), 8% Minor Berserk while up, proc doesn't expire until out of combat.
Since the skill is practically a dead skill on bar when a proc isn't up, that's what we're comparing.
Cool maybe, but not effective. Ground DoTs are easy to move out of and even the large and highly damaging ones so good in PvE aren't much use Vs. mobile or good opponents.
These nerfs are out of control. Of course, the 75% player base "supports" them because they think their own class has been overnerfed and deem it about time the other classes get hit to create a level playing field.
It's just a cycle that makes the game more frustrating to play.
Head that ZOS? Joy Division says your nerfs are out of control! I know you don’t trust or like me, but this is JD!
Sorc is not in a good place! Return the damage to the crystal frags morph.0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭We could make Crystal Frags unblockable since projectile based builds are so weak against block.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Or give 'em a debuff? Defile, Breach, whatever. And to keep the premise of Blast as an interesting morph choice, make it a stam morph finally. I'm a bit tired of sS getting no class based damage beside Hurricane (and Streak + Implosion, if that counts).0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »If your routing for more damage back a thing to remember is that a key damage set for sorcs was cut with the nerfs (Necro.) The main aspect to get back for Pvp where it's now lack luster is the stun.
Here’s why I’m asking for damage:
They moved the stun to the other morph (crystal blast). Just like they did with wrecking blow and dizzying swing. It’s not coming back.
However wrecking blow empowers your next attack, giving it a 20% damage bonus (utility). I’m asking for a 20% total damage bonus on frags (10% buff), since we can already empower attacks with mage guild skills.
That would be fair to ask but remeber wrecking blow is still a cast time ability and a melee ability.
Empower would be better suited for the crystal blast morph. Since you trade cast time for damage.
With gap closer spam, there is literally no difference between ranged and Melee anymore. Stam can run faster, longer, and gap close all day.
They made crystal shards a stun, and it’s an AOE so there’s that. I can’t see anyone using it still, but whatever.Malamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.
The thing with lich/shackle though is that you're able to build for max damage outside of your sets, where you wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's also meant to sustain since mag sorcs are by definition not a berserker class that's supposed to put out huge damage IMO. It's supposed to use the mobility and mechanics to drain the enemy and make him ultimately unable to fight back at which point a swift burst comes to end the job. I can't seem to recall a single patch (ever since I started playing my sorc in TG) where sorcs actually went with 2 damage sets. Seducer/engine is a good example, a setup that's been played for literal years by sorcs everywhere.
I take you as an old time player, so I hope you remember Ezareth. In my opinion he's the best example of what a magsorc should be like: abuse mobility to the max and kite your opponent.
TL DR: So yeah, unless specifically built for tanking (e.g. riposte or pirate skelly) I disagree on calling setups tank builds. 2 sustain sets aren't tank builds, not even CLOSE.
Cept that scenario doesn't exist. The Stam classes out there are more mobile and sustainable than the sorc:)
On top of that, the stam classes do more damage.
I tried the shackle/lich build last night and... it has some serious issues. Lich has the problem of only kicking in at low magicka, and by the time 33% comes around you’re already in deep stuff. I was running 3K-3.1K spell damage, Atro mundus, blue food, around 45-46K Max Magicka, a little less than 2K regen not counting all of the Cyrodiil resource capture bonuses.
Bottom line: It had the damage I missed with riposte. But I had to run harness with it over lightning form because it just doesn’t have the minor maim bonus. And the regen just didn’t help as much as it should, it’s a build that consistently ‘runs on or near empty’, especially when outnumbered, which for me is most of the time.
Can we switch this discussion from the “ESO dating channel” back to fixing crystal frags? Devs, we need that 10% damage back!
I fail to see how you'd have sustain issues, especially with lich. Did you try the build in a duel environment or in open world where you can reliably dark deal and LOS? If you didn't do either then you shouldn't really call the build bad as you haven't done what it's meant to do.
I have absolutely 0 sustain issues with it, so I fail to see where the problem is within the build itself. Like really I never run out when in BGs or open world. Duels are another beast entirely and I do agree that this setup is pretty bleh in there.
I just want to add in open world i have destroyed every dark deal sorc I run across. You all run Amber which is fine, hell I used to as well. But you dmg is also not optimal.
Isn´t the core of the discussion that all of these people don´t run amber?
But i´d also like insight on what setup provides noticeably higher dmg than lich shackle optimised for dmg not sustain. I haven´t found one so far personally.
I haven’t found one with higher damage without going yolo Max Magicka or spell damage, but the sustain on lich is really iffy. Like I said, it only kicks in when you’re already nearly dry on magicka. You’re only going to run that dry when you have some dumb Zerg horde chasing you, or you’re in the middle of a fight for your life. By then the sustain is often too late to help.2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I haven’t found one with higher damage without going yolo Max Magicka or spell damage, but the sustain on lich is really iffy. Like I said, it only kicks in when you’re already nearly dry on magicka. You’re only going to run that dry when you have some dumb Zerg horde chasing you, or you’re in the middle of a fight for your life. By then the sustain is often too late to help.
I think people tend to misuse lich in terms of either building to oversustain with lich only proccing in extreme situations or undersustain because of the behaviour your discribed + the train of thought "lich is gonna save me" - then die when the procc is over.
I know exactly how much magica rec i need to sustain by now and how much lich translates to if i regularly procc it, meaning i will drop low until i procc lich - then go up again and by the time i drop low again lich will procc again.
Sometimes i´ll deliberately procc it by casting 1 or 2 unecessary healing wards.
I feel lich is one of the few sustain sets that actually need some thought to get maximum benefit from using it (compared to seducer or alteration which just get better the more braindead you spam :P).<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭
How is it not optimal? I'm sure you have a way of getting over 40-45k mag and 3.2k spell damage while also sustaining it well. Also the fact that you "destroyed" every dark deal sorc says nothing, first of all no good sorc should lose to another sorc in open world simply because you can stack harness and live indefinitely. So yeah, humor me on a better setup.
Inb4 riposte instead of lich, nty riposte on sorc is *** imo
I made the riposte build over 6 months ago, my video is stamped that far back. Only thing I changed was running shackle/masters staff because 6 months ago I didn't have the masters staff.
You can think it's *** all you want. The fact is, I don't have to slot harness and I don't. IMO the extra bar slot is awesome. I don't chase sorcs, you can run away and DC all you want. But you're also not dealing dmg to me.
Again....the 5th piece of Lich only works when you reach that proc threshold. If you feel good with magicka going below 33% that's great, but you're not streaking out of a X situation with that low magicka.... If the build works for you that is terrific...I'd rather not be stuck in an MMO where there is a BiS build for each class. I'm just sayin, I'd rather have a 5th piece that is active.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »
How is it not optimal? I'm sure you have a way of getting over 40-45k mag and 3.2k spell damage while also sustaining it well. Also the fact that you "destroyed" every dark deal sorc says nothing, first of all no good sorc should lose to another sorc in open world simply because you can stack harness and live indefinitely. So yeah, humor me on a better setup.
Inb4 riposte instead of lich, nty riposte on sorc is *** imo
I made the riposte build over 6 months ago, my video is stamped that far back. Only thing I changed was running shackle/masters staff because 6 months ago I didn't have the masters staff.
You can think it's *** all you want. The fact is, I don't have to slot harness and I don't. IMO the extra bar slot is awesome. I don't chase sorcs, you can run away and DC all you want. But you're also not dealing dmg to me.
Again....the 5th piece of Lich only works when you reach that proc threshold. If you feel good with magicka going below 33% that's great, but you're not streaking out of a X situation with that low magicka.... If the build works for you that is terrific...I'd rather not be stuck in an MMO where there is a BiS build for each class. I'm just sayin, I'd rather have a 5th piece that is active.
Also it has to be made very clear - when looking at overall utility even in 1v1 encounters - wizards riposte is best in slot.
It trades ~8% dmg for 12% extra mitigation + 1300 HP when going for the same sustain lich provides.
It´s the overall better build - personally i just feel that trading dmg for defense in the current position of sorcs isn´t helping me .<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »
How is it not optimal? I'm sure you have a way of getting over 40-45k mag and 3.2k spell damage while also sustaining it well. Also the fact that you "destroyed" every dark deal sorc says nothing, first of all no good sorc should lose to another sorc in open world simply because you can stack harness and live indefinitely. So yeah, humor me on a better setup.
Inb4 riposte instead of lich, nty riposte on sorc is *** imo
I made the riposte build over 6 months ago, my video is stamped that far back. Only thing I changed was running shackle/masters staff because 6 months ago I didn't have the masters staff.
You can think it's *** all you want. The fact is, I don't have to slot harness and I don't. IMO the extra bar slot is awesome. I don't chase sorcs, you can run away and DC all you want. But you're also not dealing dmg to me.
Again....the 5th piece of Lich only works when you reach that proc threshold. If you feel good with magicka going below 33% that's great, but you're not streaking out of a X situation with that low magicka.... If the build works for you that is terrific...I'd rather not be stuck in an MMO where there is a BiS build for each class. I'm just sayin, I'd rather have a 5th piece that is active.
Also it has to be made very clear - when looking at overall utility even in 1v1 encounters - wizards riposte is best in slot.
It trades ~8% dmg for 12% extra mitigation + 1300 HP when going for the same sustain lich provides.
It´s the overall better build - personally i just feel that trading dmg for defense in the current position of sorcs isn´t helping me .
What sustain level is that for you? Just curious.
I’m with you on this one. Trading off 8% damage isn’t helping me either, you can’t kill anything with riposte without an ultimate. I think it’s higher than 8%, because we’re talking about 2K max magicka and 400-500 spell damage at least. (That’s using regen food like clockwork or witch, and regen glyphs)
I seem to do ‘ok’ with 1600 or so regen with lich, 1900+ with riposte. That’s not counting Cyrodiil buffs or potions (major intellect).Edited by Minalan on January 27, 2018 11:49AM0 -
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree that either the dmg should be increased or the stun returned or the distance of streak slightly increased0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »
How is it not optimal? I'm sure you have a way of getting over 40-45k mag and 3.2k spell damage while also sustaining it well. Also the fact that you "destroyed" every dark deal sorc says nothing, first of all no good sorc should lose to another sorc in open world simply because you can stack harness and live indefinitely. So yeah, humor me on a better setup.
Inb4 riposte instead of lich, nty riposte on sorc is *** imo
I made the riposte build over 6 months ago, my video is stamped that far back. Only thing I changed was running shackle/masters staff because 6 months ago I didn't have the masters staff.
You can think it's *** all you want. The fact is, I don't have to slot harness and I don't. IMO the extra bar slot is awesome. I don't chase sorcs, you can run away and DC all you want. But you're also not dealing dmg to me.
Again....the 5th piece of Lich only works when you reach that proc threshold. If you feel good with magicka going below 33% that's great, but you're not streaking out of a X situation with that low magicka.... If the build works for you that is terrific...I'd rather not be stuck in an MMO where there is a BiS build for each class. I'm just sayin, I'd rather have a 5th piece that is active.
Also it has to be made very clear - when looking at overall utility even in 1v1 encounters - wizards riposte is best in slot.
It trades ~8% dmg for 12% extra mitigation + 1300 HP when going for the same sustain lich provides.
It´s the overall better build - personally i just feel that trading dmg for defense in the current position of sorcs isn´t helping me .
What sustain level is that for you? Just curious.
I’m with you on this one. Trading off 8% damage isn’t helping me either, you can’t kill anything with riposte without an ultimate. I think it’s higher than 8%, because we’re talking about 2K max magicka and 400-500 spell damage at least. (That’s using regen food like clockwork or witch, and regen glyphs)
I seem to do ‘ok’ with 1600 or so regen with lich, 1900+ with riposte. That’s not counting Cyrodiil buffs or potions (major intellect).
My Frag tooltip outside Cyro increases by 3% switching from Witchmother's to blue food. Unbuffed. The numerical difference gets even smaller with Sorcery, glyph, Continuous and scrolls.
My sustain, unbuffed, PLUMMETS by 40%.
FOURTY. PERCENT.
And that's without considering Intellect and Continuous.
I highly doubt Lich proc makes up for that, especially with the Conversion buff incoming.
Oh, and Clockwork filet makes that equation even more favorable for Wizard's.Edited by Lord-Otto on January 27, 2018 7:11PM0 -
jarydf✭✭✭✭How about this.
Shards = cast time, standard damage
Blast = cast time, some aoe, stun
Frags = no cast time at all plus chance to proc 50% cost reduction if used cleverly with other mag abilities?
All dark magic skills proc blood magic heal and bonus spell crit so makes frag a sorc class spammable of sorts but with a high magicka cost unless reduced with clever use and with a difference to force pulse substitute that non staff users can access.Edited by jarydf on January 28, 2018 1:20AM0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The idea behind DW sorcs is increased burst. You need a damage proc Frag for that.
For sustained damage, you'd want a staff's light attack, anyway. When DW sorcs complain about not having a spammable, it's for when they don't have a Frag procced. 'cause then they're screwed with having only Fury to deal damage.0 -
CaliMade✭✭✭✭Ive never had an issue with frags, these nerfs they recieved are obnoxious and stupid, sorcs are jokes now unless they hit you with SA in the wrong situation.
If it was up to me i would change the proc condition to be less rng in addition to reverting its damage nerf and cc removal. Maybe allowing it to proc off-bar so it can proc while warding up. Or simply have it gauranteed after 2 or 3 magic abilities casted.
Sorcs offensive capabilities havent been overwhelming since Magic Dawnbreaker. Its the sheilds that are difficult to deal with, but even thats only a problem in a 1v1 situation. 1 extra person with me and i can make quick work of a hardend ward.
XB1 GT- Cali Made
Praetorian Stam DK Redguard
Brigadier Stam/magblade (whatever i feel like running) Redguard
Major Mag DK Dark Elf
lieutenant Mag/stamplar (whatever i feel like running) Redguard0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I would suggest entirely reworking the morphs since neither skill is particularily good.
Crystal Blast should be combined with current Frags. Move the proc chance onto Crystal Blast, but not retain the damage bonus. In essence, Crystal Blast become the new frags with no damage boost but retaining the CC (changed to Knockback) & splash. Buff for PVE, overall nerf for PVP.
Crystal Frags should be outright reworked into a spammable. It should have a slightly stronger tooltip than Swallow Soul 6-8% higher with similar scaling. When you do critical damage with Frags, it turns into Fragmented Assault. Instant cast with badass 1 second formation time with an effect around your weapon once it finishes. Every time you deal direct damage with Crystal Fragments, a fragment hits your target dealing 30% tooltip damage of the original fragment. Has 5 charges. Does not refresh while it's active (meaning hard cooldown).
Basically Burning Light but for sorcs.Edited by usmcjdking on January 28, 2018 8:23AM0331
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