Make Crystal Frags Great Again!

Subversus

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

How is it not optimal? I'm sure you have a way of getting over 40-45k mag and 3.2k spell damage while also sustaining it well. Also the fact that you "destroyed" every dark deal sorc says nothing, first of all no good sorc should lose to another sorc in open world simply because you can stack harness and live indefinitely. So yeah, humor me on a better setup.

Inb4 riposte instead of lich, nty riposte on sorc is *** imo

I made the riposte build over 6 months ago, my video is stamped that far back. Only thing I changed was running shackle/masters staff because 6 months ago I didn't have the masters staff.

You can think it's *** all you want. The fact is, I don't have to slot harness and I don't. IMO the extra bar slot is awesome. I don't chase sorcs, you can run away and DC all you want. But you're also not dealing dmg to me.

Again....the 5th piece of Lich only works when you reach that proc threshold. If you feel good with magicka going below 33% that's great, but you're not streaking out of a X situation with that low magicka.... If the build works for you that is terrific...I'd rather not be stuck in an MMO where there is a BiS build for each class. I'm just sayin, I'd rather have a 5th piece that is active.

See this is the problem in this argument. You look at the build from a 1v1 perspective and call it bad. I'm sure riposte is better for sorc 1v1, hell I use it on my magblade. I wasn't talking about 1v1 though, I was talking about open world pvp.

You don't chase me? Sure idc, those other 6 zergers will however. That's the thing, I'm sure there are better builds for 1v1s. But I can't think of a single one that's better for open world scenarios.

Also you still haven't answered the question: give me an example of a better build since you're so inclined to think this one's bad?

Also regarding the riposte build, so you're freeing up an extra bar slot due to not running harness to do what? The build itself still has less damage due to riposte forcing you to go more into sustain, less stamina/stamina sustain and obviously less magicka sustain. So you're trading damage and sustain for a riposte proc and an extra bar slot? Sure thing!

I'm not saying it's bad, I'm sure it works fine, but it most likely doesn't work with my playstyle.

Lord-Otto

Riposte is better in OW, Sub. Scaling defense, exactly what shields lack and need.
Just LoS here and there for Conversion. Can't do that in duels, where therefore Lich is better.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

What would be cool is if Crystal Fragments dealt its current dmg & left a small AoE snare field that dealt some dmg (i.e. actual crystal fragments) when it connects with a target.


While I do think the removal of the stun was a good thing (sorry sorc mains), the morph could definitely use some love (and Blast morph should deal same AoE dmg as it's single target dmg if you ask me).


If you compare it to other procs:

• Power Lash: slightly less damage, free cost, mega heal over time (2x stronger than vigor).
• Assassin's Will: more damage, snares (stam morph +10% stam regen), 8% Minor Berserk while up, proc doesn't expire until out of combat.

Since the skill is practically a dead skill on bar when a proc isn't up, that's what we're comparing.

How was the stun removal good? The stun was literally the only thing that made the ability punishing, dangerous and skilled. It had some pressure, set up ur burst, could be used defensively to interrupt rotations and made the sorc burst a little faster since ur window for burst isnt particularly long when u have to constantly reapply shields. Now its just another dmg ability that people can eat in the face and laugh and the vast majority of sorcs switched to master reach instead of rune cage cause master reach is the only thing close to a frag cc in terms of what you can actually get from that cc.

If frag as an ability was overperforming is a very different discussion. I dont believe it was cause it was a skilled ability and not a potato zergtool like soul assault. But if they felt that the ability was overperforming and it had to be nerfed they could nerf it without actually changing its functionality. They could just remove the cost reduction of the proc. Making it much harder to sustain and force people to use it more efficiently instead of throwing it every 3-4 seconds when it procs.

Derra

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Riposte is better in OW, Sub. Scaling defense, exactly what shields lack and need.
Just LoS here and there for Conversion. Can't do that in duels, where therefore Lich is better.

I view riposte as a "vampire enabler" to be honest.

If you take care to stay stage 2 or 3 you´ll get 5% increased fire/fightersguild at max while gaining 10% resource recov + undeath.
That´s the big reason for riposte setups in my opinion.

Otherwise agreed.

pieratsos

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

We could make Crystal Frags unblockable since projectile based builds are so weak against block.

Nah, that would be prety broken. Curse unblockable, frag unblockable, destro ult unblockable. It would go from too weak to flat out stupid. Sorc is just trash against block tanks and doesnt really synergize with a tank meta in general because they have no sustained dmg and pressure. Its just the way sorc is designed. Not particularly fun fighting tanks but making everything go through block is dumb. Sorcs would be like the shieldbreaker of tanks.

DDuke

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What would be cool is if Crystal Fragments dealt its current dmg & left a small AoE snare field that dealt some dmg (i.e. actual crystal fragments) when it connects with a target.


While I do think the removal of the stun was a good thing (sorry sorc mains), the morph could definitely use some love (and Blast morph should deal same AoE dmg as it's single target dmg if you ask me).


If you compare it to other procs:

• Power Lash: slightly less damage, free cost, mega heal over time (2x stronger than vigor).
• Assassin's Will: more damage, snares (stam morph +10% stam regen), 8% Minor Berserk while up, proc doesn't expire until out of combat.

Since the skill is practically a dead skill on bar when a proc isn't up, that's what we're comparing.

How was the stun removal good? The stun was literally the only thing that made the ability punishing, dangerous and skilled. It had some pressure, set up ur burst, could be used defensively to interrupt rotations and made the sorc burst a little faster since ur window for burst isnt particularly long when u have to constantly reapply shields. Now its just another dmg ability that people can eat in the face and laugh and the vast majority of sorcs switched to master reach instead of rune cage cause master reach is the only thing close to a frag cc in terms of what you can actually get from that cc.

If frag as an ability was overperforming is a very different discussion. I dont believe it was cause it was a skilled ability and not a potato zergtool like soul assault. But if they felt that the ability was overperforming and it had to be nerfed they could nerf it without actually changing its functionality. They could just remove the cost reduction of the proc. Making it much harder to sustain and force people to use it more efficiently instead of throwing it every 3-4 seconds when it procs.

It was a "must slot" for every magicka sorc & killed build diversity. Now you see people using the scamp stun/Flame Clench/Rune Cage/DBOS for the stun, or even Crystal Blast in case of Overload gank builds.


I do think they need to give some other utility to Frags though, slotting a skill that's dead on your bar most of the time and doesn't provide any utility outside damage isn't good.

What could be interesting is if it was a undodgeable skill shot that deals damage to first target hit when cast manually without proc, that way it wouldn't necessarily be a dead skill on bar when not procced. Just a thought

Lord-Otto

Derra wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Riposte is better in OW, Sub. Scaling defense, exactly what shields lack and need.
Just LoS here and there for Conversion. Can't do that in duels, where therefore Lich is better.

I view riposte as a "vampire enabler" to be honest.

If you take care to stay stage 2 or 3 you´ll get 5% increased fire/fightersguild at max while gaining 10% resource recov + undeath.
That´s the big reason for riposte setups in my opinion.

Otherwise agreed.

Interesting view. Have run vamp before WR, personally, and proudly!
>=3
Still get hit by 10k Dawnbreakers...
(^_^)'

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

It was a "must slot" for every magicka sorc & killed build diversity.

You know what killed build diversity for sorcs since day1? Not having a class spammable.

CF was enabler for build diversity as it´s more powerful state with more dmg + stun allowed extremely subobtimal builds like 1h shield or DW to exist in the first place.
Now you have build diversity of 2 for sorc. Destro reach or runecage - one reducing gearing options massively one reducing skillchoices massively. I fail to see how the change to fragment increase build diversity in any for or shape.
In fact i know from having played sorc a lot before and after the changes that it did the contrary. It reduces build diversity tremendously by removing gear and skill choices.

It´s like saying supriseattack should get the nerfhammer bc it reduces builddiversity for stamblades.
Or Flamelash killing buildiversity for DK.
LOL.

Zer0oo

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What would be cool is if Crystal Fragments dealt its current dmg & left a small AoE snare field that dealt some dmg (i.e. actual crystal fragments) when it connects with a target.


While I do think the removal of the stun was a good thing (sorry sorc mains), the morph could definitely use some love (and Blast morph should deal same AoE dmg as it's single target dmg if you ask me).


If you compare it to other procs:

• Power Lash: slightly less damage, free cost, mega heal over time (2x stronger than vigor).
• Assassin's Will: more damage, snares (stam morph +10% stam regen), 8% Minor Berserk while up, proc doesn't expire until out of combat.

Since the skill is practically a dead skill on bar when a proc isn't up, that's what we're comparing.

How was the stun removal good? The stun was literally the only thing that made the ability punishing, dangerous and skilled. It had some pressure, set up ur burst, could be used defensively to interrupt rotations and made the sorc burst a little faster since ur window for burst isnt particularly long when u have to constantly reapply shields. Now its just another dmg ability that people can eat in the face and laugh and the vast majority of sorcs switched to master reach instead of rune cage cause master reach is the only thing close to a frag cc in terms of what you can actually get from that cc.

If frag as an ability was overperforming is a very different discussion. I dont believe it was cause it was a skilled ability and not a potato zergtool like soul assault. But if they felt that the ability was overperforming and it had to be nerfed they could nerf it without actually changing its functionality. They could just remove the cost reduction of the proc. Making it much harder to sustain and force people to use it more efficiently instead of throwing it every 3-4 seconds when it procs.

It was a "must slot" for every magicka sorc & killed build diversity. Now you see people using the scamp stun/Flame Clench/Rune Cage/DBOS for the stun, or even Crystal Blast in case of Overload gank builds.


I do think they need to give some other utility to Frags though, slotting a skill that's dead on your bar most of the time and doesn't provide any utility outside damage isn't good.

What could be interesting is if it was a undodgeable skill shot that deals damage to first target hit when cast manually without proc, that way it wouldn't necessarily be a dead skill on bar when not procced. Just a thought

You could also argue it reduces the build diversity since you now have to use other skills for the cc. More than half of all sorcs in cyro now run master destro+reach. You could do that already use all those things before the nerf if you wanted but now it is a must if you want a unclunky cc now. I would not call that diversity and it really hurts the overall damage since you have to give up on piece for the mast destro(for my build it is a 2k mag lose if i want the master destro).

Personally i though cfrag was the definition of a perfectly balanced skill. It could not be spammed, had an indicator when it is up and had the counter play that it could be dodged. If you manage to hit it did cc and high damage and was the skill that more or less defined sorc in pvp for a long time(mainly because sorc did not have a spam-able skill )

DDuke

...yet there's still more variation amongst sorc builds than before; you have your pet dueling builds, meteor rune cage builds, flame reach builds, overload gank builds etc

People weren't playing any of those other CCs previously. Why would you when you could get the CC from a skill hitting harder than most Snipes and maximize burst damage that way?


Comparing it to Surprise Attack or Flame Lash isn't really appropriate either, Frags isn't a spammable while the other two are.

And yes, I'd say both of those reduce build diversity quite a lot as well. Pretty much every melee stamblade uses Surprise Attack & every melee mag DK uses Lash.

But yet atleast the CC those builds use has always had diversity: you either use cheap Incap, cloak->heavy+SA or fear (either morph) as stamblade, or as DK Fossilize, Stone Fist (and lately Flame Reach as well).

Next patch seems to add more diversity with the different Off Balance combos available...


If anything, they should give more incentive to cast non-proc Frags, or give more value to the procced Frags without turning Rune Cage, Flame Reach & Crystal Blast into skills nobody uses.


And just to provide the point of view of someone who was playing magplar/stamblade during the time period when Frags had a stun: getting constantly CC'd while 1vX'ing by "instant cast snipes" thrown out by some random scrub spamming shields was absolute garbage.

I like how people atleast have to do some work to burst people down & need to combine their skills (rather than just packing the most power of a combo on one skill), I just wish it was a bit more effective on a sorc and that they had better sustained damage against tank builds.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

...yet there's still more variation amongst sorc builds than before; you have your pet dueling builds, meteor rune cage builds, flame reach builds, overload gank builds etc

People weren't playing any of those other CCs previously. Why would you when you could get the CC from a skill hitting harder than most Snipes and maximize burst damage that way?

Please. I´ve played defensive rune before. I´ve played reach as a cc before. Others did aswell.
Pet dueling builds changed 0.0.


All these ccs have been used before, the only thing that has changed is that people are now forced to use them which you perceive as increase build variety but in reality it reduced variety as it eliminated all builds that didn´t use them for whatever reason (and i can tell you that these were more than the 3 copypaste sorc builds you´re seeing now everywhere).

Ragnaroek93

Nerfing skills like Frags or Surprise Attack screw up the identity of classes in my opinion. Even if there would be good replacements in weapon skill lines (which aren't) it would hurt the unique feeling of classes.

The nerf to frags didn't improve build diversity at all (it was a nerf, nothing else). Would have been fine maybe if they would have given frags something else instead (increase proc chance, increase damage or whatever special effect).

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

...yet there's still more variation amongst sorc builds than before; you have your pet dueling builds, meteor rune cage builds, flame reach builds, overload gank builds etc

People weren't playing any of those other CCs previously. Why would you when you could get the CC from a skill hitting harder than most Snipes and maximize burst damage that way?

Please. I´ve played defensive rune before. I´ve played reach as a cc before. Others did aswell.
Pet dueling builds changed 0.0.


All these ccs have been used before, the only thing that has changed is that people are now forced to use them which you perceive as increase build variety but in reality it reduced variety as it eliminated all builds that didn´t use them for whatever reason.

Sure they were used, but only by a few people experimenting :P

I believe Defensive Rune only got to peoples' bars because of the proc/gank meta that no longer exists.


Like 99% of sorcs were running Crystal Frags because that was just waaay too much power packed on a single skill.


If you get like 50%+ of your burst from one skill and the CC required to guarantee a kill, that's just too much power/utility on one skill.

Imagine if Snipe became instant cast (35% of time) and stunned on every cast - that'd be ridiculously broken.


It still hits hard, but the main problem is that it's a dead skill on your bar when not procced (and the proc itself should probably do more, e.g. snare or root, DoT or something) and that's what they should address imo.

Joy_Division

A signature skill should get nerfed to promote build diversity? Hopefully Duke doesn't start commenting on templar forums arguing that Breath of Life need to get nerfed because it's limiting Templar build diversity.

Because our goal in ESO is that we should all play with weak abilities that can't possibly overshadow anything lest too many people begin to use something.

Zer0oo

A game with such a limited skill option needs to have skills with more than one secondary effect and if you look at other classes cfrag was already not soo stacked.

• Crippling Grasp: snare, speed buff, high damage dot and root
  or other procs:
• Flame lash proc: cc, spam-able base skill, extrem high hot, sets off-balance, fire damage(procs burning and 25% damage increase), no cost at all, undodgeable ,
• Assassin's Will: more damage, snares (stam morph +10% stam regen), 8% Minor Berserk while up, proc doesn't expire until out of combat, free cast if proced and no indicator if it is up, needs 5 light attacks to proc

vs

cfrag:

cc, high damage, 50% cost reduction (costs 200 less mag than funnel),
indicator if it is up, needs spam-able skill to proc, easy to dodge


On the bridge side i will play next patch play a dodging sorc and cc others with heavy attacks.

IAVITNI

I 100% don't agree with the damage nerf to Frags but the CC removal is a 50/50 thing for me. On one side it made Sorc burst rotations longer by 1 GCD (a liftetime in open world) but on the other it forces more skillful gameplay. My magsorc has improved by leaps and bounds because I'm not crutching on the stun. I now have to actively setup frag, which is healthy gameplay.

Give Frag back the 10% damage it lost. Make Crystal Blast have a chance to proc as well and you will definitely see a lot more diversity in PvP. Utility or damage. Actual choice.

Although, IMO burst isn't the biggest problem for sorcs open world. It's the fact that part of their defensive kit (mobility) has been indirectly nerfed due to the snare meta and overbearing gap closers requiring gearing more for "tankiness" to deal with the inability to effectively relieve pressure. Sorcs currently need to spend more time on defence directly translating to less damage. This could be addressed in 2 ways.

The first way, is that snares should be toned down and moved into Major and Minor snares with set durations. Having a 70% snare on a skill like heroic slash is just poor game design. This skill provides so much utility AND can be used as a good spammable. Utility skills should follow the design philosophy of Reverb Bash. It stuns and deals damage, but when using it players really only think of the Major Defile it applies. The snares and utility of some skills is just over the top and needs to be toned down. If a skill provides 3 different forms of utility, is an unconditional spammable (to avoid nerfing SA which is FINE in the NB kit and jabs snare which is hard-ish to land) it shouldn't deal damage marginally less than that of a dedicated spammable. The uptime on some snares is just insane as well and can be kept up 100% through no extra thought in rotations. These skills are just incredibly debilitating for magicka/purge-less classes. Major culprits of this are Deep Slash, Flying Dagger, and stampede and Vampire's Bane to a lesser extent. This is regarding all classes as players mindlessly put out snares as opposed to having to think about when to snare. Also, immobolize poisons will stop you mid roll dodge and act as a pseudo CC which is just dumb.

Alternatively, give sorcs the ability to retain their mobility. First and foremost, I'd say make Streak work in the direction players are/would be moving. This would allow sorcs to actually kite their opponents in combat as opposed to using it to LoS. Then combine this with a return of 25% of magicka cost over 4 seconds if the ability stuns an opponent to incentivize using the ability in combat and not to run. Or just remove the fatigue mechanic all together.

Then give sorcs some kind of conditional snare removal. Something like spending 10k magicka grants snare immunity for 3 seconds. This could replace the Rebate passive. In return, reduce/remove the cast time for pet sorcs but change shields to have a higher base value but decreased scaling to magicka. This would help balance the tankiness of pet sorcs (which should be relying on their pets moreso than shields) and help non-CP sorcs as well (which need help). Maybe increase the duration of shields to 8 seconds to allow a more forgiving offensive window. Right now if you get cc'd you have to restack shields or risk mistiming burst.

Odds and ends:
Combine the current morphs of storm atronach. It's currently lack luster as is and buff the damage slightly. Then make a second morph with reduced cost (75ish) that summons a lesser atronach with 0.5 landing time that deals the same damage on impact but deals negligible damage and applies a slight snare to its target. This could become a way to create LoS or distance in open world/duels without having to rely solely on mines.

Give Fury a "priming period". If sorc damage is meant to be backloaded than make the skills backloaded. If the execture is triggered in <2 seconds then it deals 50% damage. If the damage occurs in >2 seconds then it deals full damage.

Edit*
Forgot to add a change to Daedric Protection passive. Have it constantly active but reduce its value to 10% and have it increase up to 30% when below 33% health. This would greatly help stam sorcs with their sustain and make the passive more unique.

Potentially change implosion into a Magicka Burn passive-Chance on dealing physical/lightning damage to burn 300 magicka, dealing 300 oblivion damage to your opponent and restoring 150 magicka to you. Again a buff for stam sorcs and a slight buff to magicka sorcs who barely benefit from this passive.

You could keep the original implosion for PvE and have a different one for PvP. I know a lot of players aren't fond of a random execute, and I think this could be a balanced alternative that fits the sorc identity. We are the masters of Magicka afterall.

Veo

Buff Crystal Frag damage by 10% and add a 30% snare for 5 sec to it on hit.
Crystal blast should receive a 30% dmg buff OR should be an instant cast.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Sure they were used, but only by a few people experimenting :P

I believe Defensive Rune only got to peoples' bars because of the proc/gank meta that no longer exists.

It had nothing to do with experimenting and i have no idea where you get the idea from. These skills were used in legitimate builds.
Defensive rune was arguably better last patch bc the new cost makes it impossible to maintain.
Reach was used either as a replacement for pulse or as a complementary skill and on demand stun (mind you frags still was procc based which limited it´s use outside of strict 1v1 as a CC).

What you´re saying is simply not true.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Imagine if Snipe became instant cast (35% of time) and stunned on every cast - that'd be ridiculously broken.

Isn´t it factually instant when used from sneak and doesn´t it stun you every time aswell?

Also i´m not 100% sure but should snipe hit harder than frags with procced bow passives + range passive modifier?

Feanor

Joy_Division wrote: »

A signature skill should get nerfed to promote build diversity? Hopefully Duke doesn't start commenting on templar forums arguing that Breath of Life need to get nerfed because it's limiting Templar build diversity.

Because our goal in ESO is that we should all play with weak abilities that can't possibly overshadow anything lest too many people begin to use something.

I think ZOS should make BoL a 60° cone instead to promote more skillful healing while claiming the skill stays powerful despite

Derra

Feanor wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

A signature skill should get nerfed to promote build diversity? Hopefully Duke doesn't start commenting on templar forums arguing that Breath of Life need to get nerfed because it's limiting Templar build diversity.

Because our goal in ESO is that we should all play with weak abilities that can't possibly overshadow anything lest too many people begin to use something.

I think ZOS should make BoL a 60° cone instead to promote more skillful healing while claiming the skill stays powerful despite

Make it a corridor like combat prayer :P

DDuke

Joy_Division wrote: »

A signature skill should get nerfed to promote build diversity? Hopefully Duke doesn't start commenting on templar forums arguing that Breath of Life need to get nerfed because it's limiting Templar build diversity.

Because our goal in ESO is that we should all play with weak abilities that can't possibly overshadow anything lest too many people begin to use something.

No, but I think Healing Ritual should be buffed to provide a viable alternative to HtD/Breath. Maybe Major Protection while casting it? I'd definitely build something around that and Cyrodiil's Light/Soulshine+other Templar cast time/channeled skills.

And just to be clear: I do think Frags need some love after the nerfs, but the stun was way too much.

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Imagine if Snipe became instant cast (35% of time) and stunned on every cast - that'd be ridiculously broken.

Isn´t it factually instant when used from sneak and doesn´t it stun you every time aswell?

Also i´m not 100% sure but should snipe hit harder than frags with procced bow passives + range passive modifier?

The important bit is in bold. It's a pretty big difference when a skill has stun everywhere, and when a skill has stun just from stealth (in fact, it isn't even Snipe that stuns people from stealth on good bow builds - it's the Acid Spray/Bombard that hits first).

Snipe most certainly does not hit harder than Frag - not without Hawk Eye passive which requires you to land 5 light attacks on target first.

If I recall correctly Frag on a high damage setup had around 4-5k more tooltip damage than Snipe on a high damage setup, I'll have to check those numbers again when I have time.

After Hawk Eye passive they're pretty much even and with Asylum Bow Snipe deals more. Without a ranged CC though... it's very difficult to actually get kills outside stealth.

---

Another thing I'll calculate & update in this thread (when I have time) is the maximum burst when you use Frag as your CC rather than Rune Cage or Flame Reach, the difference in burst damage is just ridiculous and should explain why the CC was removed.

Lord-Otto

You mean, like Dizzying Swing?

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

A signature skill should get nerfed to promote build diversity? Hopefully Duke doesn't start commenting on templar forums arguing that Breath of Life need to get nerfed because it's limiting Templar build diversity.

Because our goal in ESO is that we should all play with weak abilities that can't possibly overshadow anything lest too many people begin to use something.

No, but I think Healing Ritual should be buffed to provide a viable alternative to HtD/Breath. Maybe Major Protection while casting it? I'd definitely build something around that and Cyrodiil's Light/Soulshine+other Templar cast time/channeled skills.

And just to be clear: I do think Frags need some love after the nerfs, but the stun was way too much.

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Imagine if Snipe became instant cast (35% of time) and stunned on every cast - that'd be ridiculously broken.

Isn´t it factually instant when used from sneak and doesn´t it stun you every time aswell?

Also i´m not 100% sure but should snipe hit harder than frags with procced bow passives + range passive modifier?

The important bit is in bold. It's a pretty big difference when a skill has stun everywhere, and when a skill has stun just from stealth (in fact, it isn't even Snipe that stuns people from stealth on good bow builds - it's the Acid Spray/Bombard that hits first).

Snipe most certainly does not hit harder than Frag - not without Hawk Eye passive which requires you to land 5 light attacks on target first.

If I recall correctly Frag on a high damage setup had around 4-5k more tooltip damage than Snipe on a high damage setup, I'll have to check those numbers again when I have time.

After Hawk Eye passive they're pretty much even and with Asylum Bow Snipe deals more. Without a ranged CC though... it's very difficult to actually get kills outside stealth.

---

Another thing I'll calculate & update in this thread (when I have time) is the maximum burst when you use Frag as your CC rather than Rune Cage or Flame Reach, the difference in burst damage is just ridiculous and should explain why the CC was removed.

Just like the stun on incap is too much currently?

Also the snipe to frag comparison makes no sense as fragments is was a class defining skill. Snipe is a weaponskill accessible to all classes which has to be balanced with all the class toolkits it can be combined with in mind.

pieratsos

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What would be cool is if Crystal Fragments dealt its current dmg & left a small AoE snare field that dealt some dmg (i.e. actual crystal fragments) when it connects with a target.


While I do think the removal of the stun was a good thing (sorry sorc mains), the morph could definitely use some love (and Blast morph should deal same AoE dmg as it's single target dmg if you ask me).


If you compare it to other procs:

• Power Lash: slightly less damage, free cost, mega heal over time (2x stronger than vigor).
• Assassin's Will: more damage, snares (stam morph +10% stam regen), 8% Minor Berserk while up, proc doesn't expire until out of combat.

Since the skill is practically a dead skill on bar when a proc isn't up, that's what we're comparing.

How was the stun removal good? The stun was literally the only thing that made the ability punishing, dangerous and skilled. It had some pressure, set up ur burst, could be used defensively to interrupt rotations and made the sorc burst a little faster since ur window for burst isnt particularly long when u have to constantly reapply shields. Now its just another dmg ability that people can eat in the face and laugh and the vast majority of sorcs switched to master reach instead of rune cage cause master reach is the only thing close to a frag cc in terms of what you can actually get from that cc.

If frag as an ability was overperforming is a very different discussion. I dont believe it was cause it was a skilled ability and not a potato zergtool like soul assault. But if they felt that the ability was overperforming and it had to be nerfed they could nerf it without actually changing its functionality. They could just remove the cost reduction of the proc. Making it much harder to sustain and force people to use it more efficiently instead of throwing it every 3-4 seconds when it procs.

It was a "must slot" for every magicka sorc & killed build diversity. Now you see people using the scamp stun/Flame Clench/Rune Cage/DBOS for the stun, or even Crystal Blast in case of Overload gank builds.


I do think they need to give some other utility to Frags though, slotting a skill that's dead on your bar most of the time and doesn't provide any utility outside damage isn't good.

What could be interesting is if it was a undodgeable skill shot that deals damage to first target hit when cast manually without proc, that way it wouldn't necessarily be a dead skill on bar when not procced. Just a thought

Thats not how i see it. To me they are just class defining skills and they are a must because they are the backbone of the class. Killing those abilities is what takes the fun out of the class. A nightblade having to use cloak or a sorc having to use streak doesnt kill diversity. They are just must slot skills that define the class and actually make the class fun. Thats what frag was. When the snare root meta was at an all time high and magblades had to drop cloak for mist form because of how garbage cloak was it wasnt build diversity. They were just forced to make that choice to accommodate for stupid mechanics.

We dont have more diversity now. Thats just a misconception. Niche overlord gank and pet builds were always a thing. They are just more evident now cause they are arguably a lot more fun than the stupid sorc competitive meta. The actual meta for sorcs now is using flame reach which isnt even different than the one we had. it literally went from crushing shock + frag (cc) to reach (cc) + frag. Its essentially the exact same thing. Just worse now, cause ur class isnt even the one providing that basic functionality and u have to crutch on other things like master destro and a destro skill for cc.

Build diversity would mean having mutliple options and willingly making a choice that fits ur build. This is not what sorcs got. What they got was being forced to different choices that are not fun and they dont want to make, to accomodate for a dumb change. Relying on DB cc isnt diversity and a choice you want to make. You just have to rely on DB for a cc cause u have no room to slot the only reliable cc ur class has, which doesnt even synergize with ur class. Or even worse, because u have to farm vDSA. If the goal was to provide actual build diversity for sorcs then the changes were 100% off target.

There was nothing wrong with how frag functioned. It was a skill that could be countered with prety much every single defensive mechanic but it was a very powerful and rewarding skill. If it was too powerful then nerf it but dont change its functionality. Although im still amazed as to how of all the sorc things that deserved a nerf/change like dark deal, fury, implosion, shields, curse and i would go as far and say they still deserve a nerf, they chose to nerf the one skill that even sorc haters didnt complain about.

Feanor

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What would be cool is if Crystal Fragments dealt its current dmg & left a small AoE snare field that dealt some dmg (i.e. actual crystal fragments) when it connects with a target.


While I do think the removal of the stun was a good thing (sorry sorc mains), the morph could definitely use some love (and Blast morph should deal same AoE dmg as it's single target dmg if you ask me).


If you compare it to other procs:

• Power Lash: slightly less damage, free cost, mega heal over time (2x stronger than vigor).
• Assassin's Will: more damage, snares (stam morph +10% stam regen), 8% Minor Berserk while up, proc doesn't expire until out of combat.

Since the skill is practically a dead skill on bar when a proc isn't up, that's what we're comparing.

How was the stun removal good? The stun was literally the only thing that made the ability punishing, dangerous and skilled. It had some pressure, set up ur burst, could be used defensively to interrupt rotations and made the sorc burst a little faster since ur window for burst isnt particularly long when u have to constantly reapply shields. Now its just another dmg ability that people can eat in the face and laugh and the vast majority of sorcs switched to master reach instead of rune cage cause master reach is the only thing close to a frag cc in terms of what you can actually get from that cc.

If frag as an ability was overperforming is a very different discussion. I dont believe it was cause it was a skilled ability and not a potato zergtool like soul assault. But if they felt that the ability was overperforming and it had to be nerfed they could nerf it without actually changing its functionality. They could just remove the cost reduction of the proc. Making it much harder to sustain and force people to use it more efficiently instead of throwing it every 3-4 seconds when it procs.

It was a "must slot" for every magicka sorc & killed build diversity. Now you see people using the scamp stun/Flame Clench/Rune Cage/DBOS for the stun, or even Crystal Blast in case of Overload gank builds.


I do think they need to give some other utility to Frags though, slotting a skill that's dead on your bar most of the time and doesn't provide any utility outside damage isn't good.

What could be interesting is if it was a undodgeable skill shot that deals damage to first target hit when cast manually without proc, that way it wouldn't necessarily be a dead skill on bar when not procced. Just a thought

Thats not how i see it. To me they are just class defining skills and they are a must because they are the backbone of the class. Killing those abilities is what takes the fun out of the class. A nightblade having to use cloak or a sorc having to use streak doesnt kill diversity. They are just must slot skills that define the class and actually make the class fun. Thats what frag was. When the snare root meta was at an all time high and magblades had to drop cloak for mist form because of how garbage cloak was it wasnt build diversity. They were just forced to make that choice to accommodate for stupid mechanics.

We dont have more diversity now. Thats just a misconception. Niche overlord gank and pet builds were always a thing. They are just more evident now cause they are arguably a lot more fun than the stupid sorc competitive meta. The actual meta for sorcs now is using flame reach which isnt even different than the one we had. it literally went from crushing shock + frag (cc) to reach (cc) + frag. Its essentially the exact same thing. Just worse now, cause ur class isnt even the one providing that basic functionality and u have to crutch on other things like master destro and a destro skill for cc.

Build diversity would mean having mutliple options and willingly making a choice that fits ur build. This is not what sorcs got. What they got was being forced to different choices that are not fun and they dont want to make, to accomodate for a dumb change. Relying on DB cc isnt diversity and a choice you want to make. You just have to rely on DB for a cc cause u have no room to slot the only reliable cc ur class has, which doesnt even synergize with ur class. Or even worse, because u have to farm vDSA. If the goal was to provide actual build diversity for sorcs then the changes were 100% off target.

There was nothing wrong with how frag functioned. It was a skill that could be countered with prety much every single defensive mechanic but it was a very powerful and rewarding skill. If it was too powerful then nerf it but dont change its functionality. Although im still amazed as to how of all the sorc things that deserved a nerf/change like dark deal, fury, implosion, shields, curse and i would go as far and say they still deserve a nerf, they chose to nerf the one skill that even sorc haters didnt complain about.

QFT. Couldn’t have worded it any better.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

A signature skill should get nerfed to promote build diversity? Hopefully Duke doesn't start commenting on templar forums arguing that Breath of Life need to get nerfed because it's limiting Templar build diversity.

Because our goal in ESO is that we should all play with weak abilities that can't possibly overshadow anything lest too many people begin to use something.

No, but I think Healing Ritual should be buffed to provide a viable alternative to HtD/Breath. Maybe Major Protection while casting it? I'd definitely build something around that and Cyrodiil's Light/Soulshine+other Templar cast time/channeled skills.

And just to be clear: I do think Frags need some love after the nerfs, but the stun was way too much.

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Imagine if Snipe became instant cast (35% of time) and stunned on every cast - that'd be ridiculously broken.

Isn´t it factually instant when used from sneak and doesn´t it stun you every time aswell?

Also i´m not 100% sure but should snipe hit harder than frags with procced bow passives + range passive modifier?

The important bit is in bold. It's a pretty big difference when a skill has stun everywhere, and when a skill has stun just from stealth (in fact, it isn't even Snipe that stuns people from stealth on good bow builds - it's the Acid Spray/Bombard that hits first).

Snipe most certainly does not hit harder than Frag - not without Hawk Eye passive which requires you to land 5 light attacks on target first.

If I recall correctly Frag on a high damage setup had around 4-5k more tooltip damage than Snipe on a high damage setup, I'll have to check those numbers again when I have time.

After Hawk Eye passive they're pretty much even and with Asylum Bow Snipe deals more. Without a ranged CC though... it's very difficult to actually get kills outside stealth.

---

Another thing I'll calculate & update in this thread (when I have time) is the maximum burst when you use Frag as your CC rather than Rune Cage or Flame Reach, the difference in burst damage is just ridiculous and should explain why the CC was removed.

Just like the stun on incap is too much currently?

Also the snipe to frag comparison makes no sense as fragments is was a class defining skill. Snipe is a weaponskill accessible to all classes which has to be balanced with all the class toolkits it can be combined with in mind.

Well, Incap is quite interesting actually. Comparing high damage setups, it deals pretty much the same tooltip as Crystal Frags with the small little difference that it's an ultimate...

Here's a comparison of the most nightmarish high damage builds I could imagine for both stamblade & mSorc:

DW/S&B
Gear: 5x Alchemist 5x SPC 3x Willpower
Buffs: Major Sorcery, Infused, WpnDmg Enchant
Penetration: 9544
DmgModifier: 36%
CritModifier: 72%

Crystal Fragments Tooltip: 24 399/41 966 Crit

DW/Bow
Gear: 5x Alchemist 5x Spriggan 1x Master's Bow 1x Veli 1x Kena
Buffs: Major Brutality, Minor Berserk, WpnDmg Enchant, Master's Bow
Penetration: 8110
DmgModifier: 44%
CritModifier: 82%

Incap Tooltip: 23 797/43 310 Crit

9544-8110=1434/660=2,17% dmg in favor of Frags.

24 399+2.1%=24 928+72%=42 876

As you can see they deal basically same damage.

If you asked me what am I more afraid of, people hitting me with Wrath+Curse+CC Frags+Overload LA or Assassin's Will+Incap+Rev Slice, I'd have to go with the former.

I've no desire to add another 5k health to my magicka DK for instance just to never die to a Frag combo.


So yeah, I'm all for more useful/better frags, but I don't want to see a hard CC associated with them...

Lord-Otto

You're wrong, Duke.

You see the Frag coming from a mile away. Especially if you can count to four when Curse got activated. If you successfully mess up the sorc timing by just a second, he will not kill you. Dodge before Curse blows up or block. It's that simple.
Curse hits for 8k, Frag more or less the same, execute with 20%.

Incap is instant, on demand and has no telegraph. Unless you're permablocking, a good NB will hit you with it and you can't prevent it. THEN comes the Merciless, and the execution is very likely to hit you while you're still in breaking free animation.
Merciless hits for 12k, Incap for 10k. Impale is 25%, Executioner 50%.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Damage and utility being sucked out of iconic class skills that have been around since launch? Yup, that's a Champion system power creep problem. Strike the root of the tree if you wish to kill it.

DDuke

Lord-Otto wrote: »

You're wrong, Duke.

You see the Frag coming from a mile away. Especially if you can count to four when Curse got activated. If you successfully mess up the sorc timing by just a second, he will not kill you. Dodge before Curse blows up or block. It's that simple.
Curse hits for 8k, Frag more or less the same, execute with 20%.

Not a melee range frag, and you can't always dodge the ranged ones either atleast on a magicka build.

If frags were still stunning people in PvP, I doubt I'd be playing my destro/resto magicka DK (or atleast Scales would be a "must slot).

Of course the permablock builds would have np dealing with them...

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Incap is instant, on demand and has no telegraph. Unless you're permablocking, a good NB will hit you with it and you can't prevent it. THEN comes the Merciless, and the execution is very likely to hit you while you're still in breaking free animation.
Merciless hits for 12k, Incap for 10k. Impale is 25%, Executioner 50%.

Nope, you first land Assassin's Will and then Incap. It doesn't work the other way around against good players as AW has a looong travel time. You can however land Surprise Attack or Rev Slice/Executioner after Incap usually (not always). Depends on the latency really (of both the attacker & defender).

I did some CC Break tests a while ago you might find interesting: https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE

Fear is used there, but Incap is pretty much the same (if not even easier to break free+dodge roll or shield in time).