Make Crystal Frags Great Again!
-
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
You aren’t missing anything lol. Mag Sorcs are just there for tons of Concussion procs and Conduit.... Minor Prophecy is nice too but not huge. With the need for us to constantly keep up Off-Balance home, Mag Sorc lost its main group utilityJoy_Division wrote: »My main is not a sorcerer.
Revert Frags back to it's original state before the nerfs.
It's fine that classes have good abilities as long as I have my own.
Game was so much better and more interesting then.
This is the way ZOS makes room for CP increases - if they don't nerf every class constantly then we'll actually start feeling stronger instead of weaker after a patch
It's getting close to the anniversary of Homestead, and my Mag Sorc has lost a tremendous amount of DPS.
Oh god please no... I used to love my Mag Sorc prior to Homestead, but then groups of 8 Sorcs in raids took over and I haven't played that class in PvE since Morrowind dropped because I just couldn't stand it after not being able to bring my Stamblade into raids for 2 patches in a row because I had to play a Sorc.
Yeah there were some pretty large balancing issues back then lol. Mag Sorc was too good but moreso it was that others weren’t good enough at least imo. Basically every Mag Sorc class DPS skill has gotten its damaged nerfed since then and Morrowind sustain hit them hard....
We might see some of that same 6-8 out of 8 DPS situation next patch with Mag NB in certain trials. Pretty sure Stamina is still higher DPS but idk. At least in vAS we’ll see all Mag NBs.
buff ranged stam, magplar and mag dk?
Yup.... and Mag Warden.
I’d love ranged Stam to be a thing. ZOS did good with the Hawk Eye passive but it wasn’t nearly enough. Then again it would be kinda lame if it out-dpsed Magicka classes....
Magplar might be decent but idk - they were buffed on PTS, but I don’t have access to PTS so I can’t say anything about them without much more info.
Mag DK..... Now I feel as bad for people who wanted to be Fire Mages as I do ppl who wanted to be Ice Mages. Mag DK is legit *horrible* in PvE. #1 worst DPS. Worse than Mag Warden.
Mag Warden is as bad as Mag DK but aren’t horrendous if they can use Eternal Guardian paired with Master Architect. They need probably more help than Mag DK to be made viable without the bear 1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It wasn't the damage reduction or stun removal that killed frags for me, it was the Morrowind sustain nerfs. With frags on front bar and using a typical spammable rotation we used to have 6-7 chances to proc it every 8-9s. Now with heavy attacks being required it's more like 2-3 chances to proc frags every 8-9s.
The only fix for this would be increasing the proc chance (to at least 50%) or allowing light and heavy attacks to proc an instant cast. It could also help if back bar casts could proc front bar frags, since nobody has the space to double bar frags.
If we're wishing for frags improvements anyway, I would also like to see the RNG removed (much prefer every third cast proc over 33% chance on every cast for example).1 -
Irylia✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You want the stun gone?Yeah... That change was stupid. I've been saying the stun was the issue for so long and it took them forever to address itI disagree this nerf made sorcs better with their new stun and builds. They don’t need a frag buff.
You are dumb stop talking.
Give me the stun back.
I want everyone in this thread who is spewing *** about sorc to leave, you have no clue what you are talking about.
I’d present an entire class skills/passives walk through and changes (nerf/buff/tweak) but it will go unheard by zos and be a waste of time. I’ve already offered plenty of update ideas and reasons in previous posts.9 -
dickeybarret✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »It wasn't the damage reduction or stun removal that killed frags for me, it was the Morrowind sustain nerfs. With frags on front bar and using a typical spammable rotation we used to have 6-7 chances to proc it every 8-9s. Now with heavy attacks being required it's more like 2-3 chances to proc frags every 8-9s.
The only fix for this would be increasing the proc chance (to at least 50%) or allowing light and heavy attacks to proc an instant cast. It could also help if back bar casts could proc front bar frags, since nobody has the space to double bar frags.
If we're wishing for frags improvements anyway, I would also like to see the RNG removed (much prefer every third cast proc over 33% chance on every cast for example).
So much this. The rng nature was fine when it was a decent hitting skill (speaking from a pve perspective). But given it's random nature, why would I run it? When at least bow on a nb has some sort of predictable nature about it. Either make it hit harder, or ditch the rng of the proc.0 -
ManDraKE✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm ok with the buffing cfrags, as long as they nerf curse. Curse stacking and re-applying it self instantly is broken af, you only need 2 sorcs to make your life imposible, whoever got the idea of buffing skills that dead unavoidable dmg needs to get fired lol0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Actually I read something today in another post (ironically about DKs) about how you need quick and high burst in 1vX (and essentially given the overall tankiness, everywhere these days). And that Sorc burst takes 4 GCDs. You see it coming by a light year. On the offensive side that’s all you have to say really when considering the class in PvP.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm ok with the buffing cfrags, as long as they nerf curse. Curse stacking and re-applying it self instantly is broken af, you only need 2 sorcs to make your life imposible, whoever got the idea of buffing skills that dead unavoidable dmg needs to get fired lol
Keep in mind that nobody asked for Haunting Curse. It's nice to have, yes. But we'd be better off with old Frags and old Curse.0 -
ManDraKE✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »I'm ok with the buffing cfrags, as long as they nerf curse. Curse stacking and re-applying it self instantly is broken af, you only need 2 sorcs to make your life imposible, whoever got the idea of buffing skills that dead unavoidable dmg needs to get fired lol
Keep in mind that nobody asked for Haunting Curse. It's nice to have, yes. But we'd be better off with old Frags and old Curse.
yes i know. The old curse and old frag was totally ok, the new curse is stupid and the new frags is ***.Edited by ManDraKE on January 24, 2018 5:20PM1 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If we’re at it, my gripe with Curse is a different one. It’s when you want to play a pet build in PvE but not in PvP. Daedric Prey is the clearly better morph for the PvE pet build, while it’s not very good in PvP. So you either prolong your delayed burst to 6 seconds or you constantly have to remorph whenever you change to PvE or PvP.
That’s the same for many other class abilities too. I wish we could save one preference set for PvE and PvP and change at no gold cost, same for CP distribution.Edited by Feanor on January 24, 2018 5:25PMMain characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy1 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm ok with the buffing cfrags, as long as they nerf curse. Curse stacking and re-applying it self instantly is broken af, you only need 2 sorcs to make your life imposible, whoever got the idea of buffing skills that dead unavoidable dmg needs to get fired lol
Two of any class can make your life impossible. Survive any double uncaps lately? At least you can purge curse.2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 506 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I’d present an entire class skills/passives walk through and changes (nerf/buff/tweak) but it will go unheard by zos and be a waste of time. I’ve already offered plenty of update ideas and reasons in previous posts.
TBH I'd like to see that. So much need for change and but no change in sight. Bound Armor, Implosion, Clannfear, Charged Atro, Haunting Curse, Crystal Blast, Shattering Prison, Mines, Persistence, Lightning Flood, shield stacking, streak fatigue - so much potential for making them actual attractive or useful.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »I’d present an entire class skills/passives walk through and changes (nerf/buff/tweak) but it will go unheard by zos and be a waste of time. I’ve already offered plenty of update ideas and reasons in previous posts.
TBH I'd like to see that. So much need for change and but no change in sight. Bound Armor, Implosion, Clannfear, Charged Atro, Haunting Curse, Crystal Blast, Shattering Prison, Mines, Persistence, Lightning Flood, shield stacking, streak fatigue - so much potential for making them actual attractive or useful.
I'm writing one up for templars at the moment since next patch is supposed to be when Zos addresses this. I would encourage players do this for all classes so everyone, even the devs, can plainly see what the heck has happened to the classes we signed up to play.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
“Cockroach mage” build is what I used to describe shackle/riposte or shackle/pirate builds with the restoration ultimate. The survivability of those is pretty insane, but I wouldn’t consider the damage ‘balanced’ on those builds, it’s pretty bad.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »I’d present an entire class skills/passives walk through and changes (nerf/buff/tweak) but it will go unheard by zos and be a waste of time. I’ve already offered plenty of update ideas and reasons in previous posts.
TBH I'd like to see that. So much need for change and but no change in sight. Bound Armor, Implosion, Clannfear, Charged Atro, Haunting Curse, Crystal Blast, Shattering Prison, Mines, Persistence, Lightning Flood, shield stacking, streak fatigue - so much potential for making them actual attractive or useful.
I’d like to see that too, but I’m only asking for one, tiny change to one skill (20% damage bonus on frags, 10% additional damage bonus) that would go a long way to fixing our class defining skill.
I liked it when @ZOS_RichLambert worked with the community. He listened and responded to feedback, and he worked with us.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
“Cockroach mage” build is what I used to describe shackle/riposte or shackle/pirate builds with the restoration ultimate. The survivability of those is pretty insane, but I wouldn’t consider the damage ‘balanced’ on those builds, it’s pretty bad.
Well shackle lich does not really fit that - it´s one of the few setups that can sustain 3x spelldmg + mage/apprentice<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Frags needs stun+the extra damage. Mines needs exponential damage increase per mine. Streak needs a lot of cost reduce, but some way for melee to catch up that isn't gapcloser spam.
streak doesn't get cost reduc until Shade can be places more than 8m from where you stand. It also doesn't get cost reduction until MagPlar can have minor expedition inside their ritual or something like that
Shade is a bug that may or may not get fixed. Templars are not designed to be mobile. Sorcs are, yet they get punished for moving and completely countered by any immobile class with a gapcloser.
In the past I'm pretty sure that was the vision the Devs had for Mag Sorcs. They were a highly mobile class thanks to Streaking everywhere and had weaker shields in general, but didn't get oneshot when their shields were down. Streak now punishes your Magicka for using it (even when it fails to work), and if your shields fall off, you get killed almost immediately by decent players.
Tbh I think gap closers should get the streak treatment. But I agree with removing the stun from Cfrags though.Edited by Anti_Virus on January 24, 2018 11:12PMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
“Cockroach mage” build is what I used to describe shackle/riposte or shackle/pirate builds with the restoration ultimate. The survivability of those is pretty insane, but I wouldn’t consider the damage ‘balanced’ on those builds, it’s pretty bad.
Well shackle lich does not really fit that - it´s one of the few setups that can sustain 3x spelldmg + mage/apprentice
I think you’d need the clockwork food though for that setup to work, it has too little sustain without glyphs. Unless you want to chug pots every 45 seconds.
0 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭Malamar1229 wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.
This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.
@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.
So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.
Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.
Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.
And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.
But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?
@Dracane it's not about the dot and it's not about spamming. It's about a burst set up. Yes, the cost is cheaper than crushing shock and the dmg tool tip is comparable if not more. What is for pulse on average? 3k per element? 9k dmg versus my 10k and a stun. Even if pulse is more dmg, I run reach for the stun and suits my build. Play defensively in open world and go in for quick kills and get out.
You shouldn't get upset and block people talking about this, having something comparable is good for build diversity. Also crushing shock isn't reflectable so I get shut down by good magdks with my setup. It's balance.
There should be trade offs.
In your case running pulse/shock you don't have a stun unless you slot rune cage. Personally, when I have an opportunity to fold two abilities into one bar slot, I take it. Precious bar slots. I get a knock back (since I love playing around bridges anyway) and a 5k fire dmg "spammable" that costs 2k magicka.
I also used to run Ball of Lightning for the same reason, it was like folding two abilities into one (escape and spell absorption).
I fell in love with streak as a stun actually
And I do not know what you do. But there is not a single scenario I have recreated, where destructive touch ever reaches a higher tooltip than force pulse. It's always lower. Not too much, but lower.
But Derra seems to have explained it already.
That's why I ended with a question mark...I haven't had pulse in such a long time I forget the tooltip dmg. Was Derra talking about Pulse specifically or crushing shock? Either way, it makes sense there should be tradeoffs. Those who want the knock back burst combo have to deal with slightly less dmg
I use streak now too by the way, need as much dmg as we can get.0 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I always said it was just competitive, not better.Malamar1229 wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.
This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.
@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.
So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.
Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.
Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.
And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.
But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?
@Dracane it's not about the dot and it's not about spamming. It's about a burst set up. Yes, the cost is cheaper than crushing shock and the dmg tool tip is comparable if not more. What is for pulse on average? 3k per element? 9k dmg versus my 10k and a stun. Even if pulse is more dmg, I run reach for the stun and suits my build. Play defensively in open world and go in for quick kills and get out.
You shouldn't get upset and block people talking about this, having something comparable is good for build diversity. Also crushing shock isn't reflectable so I get shut down by good magdks with my setup. It's balance.
There should be trade offs.
In your case running pulse/shock you don't have a stun unless you slot rune cage. Personally, when I have an opportunity to fold two abilities into one bar slot, I take it. Precious bar slots. I get a knock back (since I love playing around bridges anyway) and a 5k fire dmg "spammable" that costs 2k magicka.
I also used to run Ball of Lightning for the same reason, it was like folding two abilities into one (escape and spell absorption).
I fell in love with streak as a stun actually
And I do not know what you do. But there is not a single scenario I have recreated, where destructive touch ever reaches a higher tooltip than force pulse. It's always lower. Not too much, but lower.
But Derra seems to have explained it already.
So last night, my frags are hitting for something like 5-6K on average in Cyrodiil.
Of course I could build for more, but then it wouldn’t be that MUCH more, and then I couldn’t sustain. I don’t know how to describe this except, the skill is pretty horrendous right now. This needs to be fixed ASAP.
Definately true. I'm certain I run a much more damaging build than you do and I still rarely exceed these numbers. Well, I have removed it from my bar by now.
It's very weak and useless imo. Sorcerer is the lowest burst class now what a joke.
Our problem is this is the truth right, and this thread has many of the top sorcs agreeing on the point that Frag Nerf has tipped the scales too far.
Yet if I did a poll now of should Sorcs get a further Nerf I think the majority of players and forum users would say yes.
They have a binary view, and that noise is why ZOS reacted and took on Sorcs.
So the key is how do we drown out the NerfSorc brigade Ro actually get some balance back?
The frag nerf is so bad I wish they'd speed the projectile up....now it like a gnat flying past your ear.0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Malamar1229 wrote: »Malamar1229 wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.
This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.
@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.
So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.
Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.
Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.
And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.
But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?
@Dracane it's not about the dot and it's not about spamming. It's about a burst set up. Yes, the cost is cheaper than crushing shock and the dmg tool tip is comparable if not more. What is for pulse on average? 3k per element? 9k dmg versus my 10k and a stun. Even if pulse is more dmg, I run reach for the stun and suits my build. Play defensively in open world and go in for quick kills and get out.
You shouldn't get upset and block people talking about this, having something comparable is good for build diversity. Also crushing shock isn't reflectable so I get shut down by good magdks with my setup. It's balance.
There should be trade offs.
In your case running pulse/shock you don't have a stun unless you slot rune cage. Personally, when I have an opportunity to fold two abilities into one bar slot, I take it. Precious bar slots. I get a knock back (since I love playing around bridges anyway) and a 5k fire dmg "spammable" that costs 2k magicka.
I also used to run Ball of Lightning for the same reason, it was like folding two abilities into one (escape and spell absorption).
I fell in love with streak as a stun actually
And I do not know what you do. But there is not a single scenario I have recreated, where destructive touch ever reaches a higher tooltip than force pulse. It's always lower. Not too much, but lower.
But Derra seems to have explained it already.
That's why I ended with a question mark...I haven't had pulse in such a long time I forget the tooltip dmg. Was Derra talking about Pulse specifically or crushing shock? Either way, it makes sense there should be tradeoffs. Those who want the knock back burst combo have to deal with slightly less dmg
I use streak now too by the way, need as much dmg as we can get.
I’m curious to see perfected asylum staff force pulse damage stats against a typical heavy armor full impen target with battlespirit. I know you heard from someone who heard from someone that said it’s bad , but I still want to try it sometime.
It would have to be force pulse for the damage. I doubt anyone is going to slot crushing shock next patch in PVP, what would be the point?
PS: ZOS please increase the damage on crystal fragments! Small balance changes go a long way.
0 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good luck with that staff....you complain enough already about not finding a VDSA group. 0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
“Cockroach mage” build is what I used to describe shackle/riposte or shackle/pirate builds with the restoration ultimate. The survivability of those is pretty insane, but I wouldn’t consider the damage ‘balanced’ on those builds, it’s pretty bad.
Well shackle lich does not really fit that - it´s one of the few setups that can sustain 3x spelldmg + mage/apprentice
I think you’d need the clockwork food though for that setup to work, it has too little sustain without glyphs. Unless you want to chug pots every 45 seconds.
CwC food doesn't give more mag regen over Witchmother.
Of course you want to sip potions 24/7, why wouldn't you? The regen bonus is needed, and if you weaken your damage so you can sustain saving a few pots, you're automatically inferior to those that minmax their setup.
A friendly enemy sent me a message earlier today that my sorc (Shackle+Wizard's) hits extremely hard and his whole group hates being targeted by her. Make of that what you will.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
“Cockroach mage” build is what I used to describe shackle/riposte or shackle/pirate builds with the restoration ultimate. The survivability of those is pretty insane, but I wouldn’t consider the damage ‘balanced’ on those builds, it’s pretty bad.
Well shackle lich does not really fit that - it´s one of the few setups that can sustain 3x spelldmg + mage/apprentice
I think you’d need the clockwork food though for that setup to work, it has too little sustain without glyphs. Unless you want to chug pots every 45 seconds.
I´m still amazed there are people who don´t chug pots on cooldown
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
“Cockroach mage” build is what I used to describe shackle/riposte or shackle/pirate builds with the restoration ultimate. The survivability of those is pretty insane, but I wouldn’t consider the damage ‘balanced’ on those builds, it’s pretty bad.
Well shackle lich does not really fit that - it´s one of the few setups that can sustain 3x spelldmg + mage/apprentice
I think you’d need the clockwork food though for that setup to work, it has too little sustain without glyphs. Unless you want to chug pots every 45 seconds.
I´m still amazed there are people who don´t chug pots on cooldown
I try to use them as needed, and thus they’re usually available when I do. As opposed to making it a permanent part of my build.
Solo I obviously need them constantly, but in group play, Notsomuch. You don’t really need a pot until it’s an even fight or outnumbered.0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Frags needs stun+the extra damage. Mines needs exponential damage increase per mine. Streak needs a lot of cost reduce, but some way for melee to catch up that isn't gapcloser spam.
streak doesn't get cost reduc until Shade can be places more than 8m from where you stand. It also doesn't get cost reduction until MagPlar can have minor expedition inside their ritual or something like that
Shade is a bug that may or may not get fixed. Templars are not designed to be mobile. Sorcs are, yet they get punished for moving and completely countered by any immobile class with a gapcloser.
In the past I'm pretty sure that was the vision the Devs had for Mag Sorcs. They were a highly mobile class thanks to Streaking everywhere and had weaker shields in general, but didn't get oneshot when their shields were down. Streak now punishes your Magicka for using it (even when it fails to work), and if your shields fall off, you get killed almost immediately by decent players.
Add to that that unlike every other class in the game, we have a tremendous windup for our burst. We need four global cooldowns to prepare, and if only one is wasted, our burst won't kill. Other classes can just wait for their stunning ult and use their on-demand burst skill, like Wrecking Blow or Merciless.
Also, we have zero, ZERO sustained pressure.
With master's staff reach is better than shock in any way possible except for the fact that it can do a tiny bit more damage if built for it and can be reflected whereas shock can not. So yeah, reach is actually very competitive
Edit: *** quoted the wrong guy, meant to quote our "queen" over hereEdited by Subversus on January 25, 2018 9:15AM1 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having two class finishing moves and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on January 25, 2018 9:20AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.1 -
visionality✭✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.
This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.
@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.
So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.
Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.
Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.
And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.
But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?
Good question, I have no idea. I thought that since it wasn’t reflectable anymore (scales doesn’t) they classified it as a beam and not a projectile?
Chances are it does activate shimmering, that’s P2WinWarden as usual though.
Actually it does NOT activate shimmering shield but goes right through. Just test it on a warden, its alway fun seeing them drop dead and not understanding why. Its also a nice workaround for the spellwall ulti. 0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I feel so bad for magsorcs. They deserve frag stun + dmg back. And after all those sustain changes I feel readjusting the bolt escape penalty would be reasonable as well. Maybe they would stop running shackle + lich cockroach builds and play builds that actually can be killed 1v1 in reasonable time.
That moment when one of the best available dmg builds (balanced dmg + sustain) gets called a cockroach build
It's the magSorc equivalent of a tank build. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not built to kill. It's built to sustain and bascially impossible to stamdrain solo. Having a class finisher and (still) enough ult-comboed burst to kill potatoes is what makes you believe it isn't.
Oh is it a tank build though? You have something like 3.1k spell dmg buffed with the enchant and 40k mag, that's more than enough damage? There literally haven't been better builds ever since like homestead imo. Or do you consider anything that doesn't run 2 damage sets and gets carried by ezmode stamina heavy attacks sustain a cockroach build? Just wondering.
It's the same approach to the setup, the same thought process a tank goes through when building his setup. Just built on the ability to be able to endlessly shield & breakfree. Look at it from another perspective, it's common to call other classes light armor setups with 2-3 full damage sets "tanks" just because they replace class shields with block or class heals.
Difference is that most other classes cannot kill anything wearing 2 sustain sets or sustain + shackle - because they lack sorcs offensive toolset. I applaud every sorc who goes for damage sets, because those shackle + lich setups do certainly follow the same logic I'd go for when building a tank that still can kill potatoes with another class.Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy0