Fix Templar

FlamingBeard · January 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

I'm not sure what exactly the following information means for Puncturing Sweeps next update, but these are my current test results on PTS and on PC/NA (live):

(here are each toon's stats to prove that the stats affecting these skills are identical on each toon)

The CP-invested screenshots have 44 Elfborn, 28 Spell Erosion, 43 Elemental Expert, 40 Master-at-Arms, 75 Thaumaturge

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [2507 per hit] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [2417 per hit]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1640 per hit] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [1562 per hit]

all 4 tests were performed on 6 million health skeletons

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [1458 base tooltip] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [1405 base tooltip]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1027 base tooltip] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [979 base tooltip]

In all instances, with the same stats and penetration, while damaging the same type of targets, Live server's Puncturing Sweep consistently outperforms PTS server's Puncturing Sweep.

Do what you will with this information but it's rather concerning.

Hm. On live screenshot you have 5k more mana.

I did a Live test with 35k, and a PTS test with 35k
Then I did a Live test with 30k (took off blue cp), and then PTS with 30k

Cinbri · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

I'm not sure what exactly the following information means for Puncturing Sweeps next update, but these are my current test results on PTS and on PC/NA (live):

(here are each toon's stats to prove that the stats affecting these skills are identical on each toon)

The CP-invested screenshots have 44 Elfborn, 28 Spell Erosion, 43 Elemental Expert, 40 Master-at-Arms, 75 Thaumaturge

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [2507 per hit] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [2417 per hit]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1640 per hit] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [1562 per hit]

all 4 tests were performed on 6 million health skeletons

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [1458 base tooltip] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [1405 base tooltip]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1027 base tooltip] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [979 base tooltip]

In all instances, with the same stats and penetration, while damaging the same type of targets, Live server's Puncturing Sweep consistently outperforms PTS server's Puncturing Sweep.

Do what you will with this information but it's rather concerning.

Hm. On live screenshot you have 5k more mana.

I did a Live test with 35k, and a PTS test with 35k
Then I did a Live test with 30k (took off blue cp), and then PTS with 30k

Even tooltip of further hit enemy is different, thats weird. Did you put points into race passives on pts? And why recovery stats are different?

FlamingBeard · January 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

I'm not sure what exactly the following information means for Puncturing Sweeps next update, but these are my current test results on PTS and on PC/NA (live):

(here are each toon's stats to prove that the stats affecting these skills are identical on each toon)

The CP-invested screenshots have 44 Elfborn, 28 Spell Erosion, 43 Elemental Expert, 40 Master-at-Arms, 75 Thaumaturge

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [2507 per hit] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [2417 per hit]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1640 per hit] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [1562 per hit]

all 4 tests were performed on 6 million health skeletons

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [1458 base tooltip] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [1405 base tooltip]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1027 base tooltip] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [979 base tooltip]

In all instances, with the same stats and penetration, while damaging the same type of targets, Live server's Puncturing Sweep consistently outperforms PTS server's Puncturing Sweep.

Do what you will with this information but it's rather concerning.

Hm. On live screenshot you have 5k more mana.

I did a Live test with 35k, and a PTS test with 35k
Then I did a Live test with 30k (took off blue cp), and then PTS with 30k

Even tooltip of further hit enemy is different, thats weird. Did you put points into race passives on pts? And why recovery stats are different?

The race is Breton on both, and the recovery stat shouldn't affect anything whatsoever in the tests since the Max Magicka, Spell Damage, Spell Crit, and Spell Penetration are all the same.

I'm going to try reinvesting all skills, champion points, and attributes again because I've been having some UI errors on the PTS side of the tests where the Magicka or Spell Damage aren't the same, but every armor piece, glyph, and weapon is identical to the ones on my Live Templar.

I'll get back to you with results of the reinvestments.

Cinbri · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

I'm not sure what exactly the following information means for Puncturing Sweeps next update, but these are my current test results on PTS and on PC/NA (live):

(here are each toon's stats to prove that the stats affecting these skills are identical on each toon)

The CP-invested screenshots have 44 Elfborn, 28 Spell Erosion, 43 Elemental Expert, 40 Master-at-Arms, 75 Thaumaturge

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [2507 per hit] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [2417 per hit]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1640 per hit] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [1562 per hit]

all 4 tests were performed on 6 million health skeletons

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [1458 base tooltip] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [1405 base tooltip]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1027 base tooltip] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [979 base tooltip]

In all instances, with the same stats and penetration, while damaging the same type of targets, Live server's Puncturing Sweep consistently outperforms PTS server's Puncturing Sweep.

Do what you will with this information but it's rather concerning.

Hm. On live screenshot you have 5k more mana.

I did a Live test with 35k, and a PTS test with 35k
Then I did a Live test with 30k (took off blue cp), and then PTS with 30k

Even tooltip of further hit enemy is different, thats weird. Did you put points into race passives on pts? And why recovery stats are different?

The race is Breton on both, and the recovery stat shouldn't affect anything whatsoever in the tests since the Max Magicka, Spell Damage, Spell Crit, and Spell Penetration are all the same.

I'm going to try reinvesting all skills, champion points, and attributes again because I've been having some UI errors on the PTS side of the tests where the Magicka or Spell Damage aren't the same, but every armor piece, glyph, and weapon is identical to the ones on my Live Templar.

I'll get back to you with results of the reinvestments.

Also, does tooltip of other skills is same?

FlamingBeard · January 2018

@Cinbri

Doing rough math on the tooltips, the closest passive they fall within the margin of error for is Twin Blade and Blunt's Damage Done passive for Swords, so what I'm guessing is that passive didn't apply to my skills for whatever reason on PTS.

Continuing reinvestments.

FlamingBeard · January 2018

@Cinbri After multiple relogs to the PTS following my skill and passive reinvestments, the tooltips from PTS now exactly reflect the tooltips on Live.

It seems the broken tooltips have finally been dealt with from the past few PTS patches, at the very least.

I have no reliable way of testing these tooltips with Minor Vulnerability damage modifiers so that's still something that needs to be done to realistically judge the state of Puncturing Sweep for Dragon Bones update.

Cinbri · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

@Cinbri After multiple relogs to the PTS following my skill and passive reinvestments, the tooltips from PTS now exactly reflect the tooltips on Live.

It seems the broken tooltips have finally been dealt with from the past few PTS patches, at the very least.

I have no reliable way of testing these tooltips with Minor Vulnerability damage modifiers so that's still something that needs to be done to realistically judge the state of Puncturing Sweep for Dragon Bones update.

So, damage dealt on target skeleton on pts and live is equal now or still different?

FlamingBeard · January 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

@Cinbri After multiple relogs to the PTS following my skill and passive reinvestments, the tooltips from PTS now exactly reflect the tooltips on Live.

It seems the broken tooltips have finally been dealt with from the past few PTS patches, at the very least.

I have no reliable way of testing these tooltips with Minor Vulnerability damage modifiers so that's still something that needs to be done to realistically judge the state of Puncturing Sweep for Dragon Bones update.

So, damage dealt on target skeleton on pts and live is equal now or still different?

It is now identical to Live, at least regarding Puncturing Sweep.

I'm sure Radiant Oppression is bound to differ from Live, but I also have no way to efficiently or effectively test this theory, so that much remains unknown.

Cinbri · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

@Cinbri After multiple relogs to the PTS following my skill and passive reinvestments, the tooltips from PTS now exactly reflect the tooltips on Live.

It seems the broken tooltips have finally been dealt with from the past few PTS patches, at the very least.

I have no reliable way of testing these tooltips with Minor Vulnerability damage modifiers so that's still something that needs to be done to realistically judge the state of Puncturing Sweep for Dragon Bones update.

So, damage dealt on target skeleton on pts and live is equal now or still different?

It is now identical to Live, at least regarding Puncturing Sweep.

I'm sure Radiant Oppression is bound to differ from Live, but I also have no way to efficiently or effectively test this theory, so that much remains unknown.

Glad to hear. Yet there is remain this problem with damage reduce in pvp.
I think best way to test RO is on low hp mobs in overland. Will try it tomorrow too.

Trashs1 · January 2018

oh god plz dont kill my 2 templars for pvp zos

thx @Cinbri and @FlamingBeard for your test maratons

maybe u guys should do test duells if u both are on the same server

Tanis-Stormbinder · January 2018

Give magic Templar's and Dragon Knights a 4% boost to damage from passives only when out of pvp zones. This would make them more attractive in end game trials. As it stands now why have either, most if lucky are relegated to standby positions

Qbiken · January 2018

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

Give magic Templar's and Dragon Knights a 4% boost to damage from passives only when out of pvp zones. This would make them more attractive in end game trials. As it stands now why have either, most if lucky are relegated to standby positions

Magicka Templar needs bug fixed (as shown above by PTS testers. God bless them for their work), and DK´s need sustain buffs, not more damage.

Tanis-Stormbinder · January 2018

I 100% agree with you Qbiken but that wont make them more desirable in end game trials

mandricus · January 2018

I used to play a MagPlar in PvE, and I was having a lot of fun with it.

Then Morrowind came, and PvE Wise my toon was turned into a pile of utter garbage, because sweeps were not sustainable anymore (yes I know it can be played like a "Sorcplar" and still be viable in some way, using heavy attacks, destro staff skills and all that ***, but let's be honest, who wants to play a Magplar that can't use Sweeps because they are not sustainable anymore? Not me. If I want to play with a Sorc playstile I play a proper Sorc, not a poor imitation of it).

I Devoted my toon to PvP, and yet I had some fun with it (even if I'm still too lame for PvP).

Now if this nerf to sweep in PvP is going to hit live I think the only thing I can do with it, it will be to convert it into a crafter.. just for doing the daylies. That's it (I'm going to do the same with my MagDK).

At this point I feel Very sad. RIP my fellow Templar. It is the class I enjoyed the most, to the point that I don't know if this will be the final hit to my willness to login and to play the game after this patch.

Cinbri · January 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

So:
1. Jabs and its 140% damage:

Tried closest to 1000 damage. As you can see its something like 140.XX%. So, tooltip state right amount of damage.

2. About actual damage to closest target:

It does deal same amount of damage as tooltip state. So, 140% seems works properly.

3. About raw damage: Live/PTS
a. Initial damage stay the same(not sure why 1 less damage), since nothing was changed here:

b. As Joy said minor berserk is additive, and nothing changed here too, damage is same:

c. But as first patchnotes said damage taken, like minor vulnerability, is no longer additive, and here is buff changes as on live it is suffer from being additive and as result less than 8%, but on pts it is boosting flat 8% damage increase that don't losing its % when combined with berserk:
without and with Slimecraw' berserk while enemy vulnerable:

In theory it look like it work as it intended, but NO, tested closest damage in pvp in exactly same gear/CP/skillbar against opponent with exact same gear/CP/skillbar and result is sad:

Whatever changed with calculation of CP damage taken it ended in monstrous damage nerf for pvp.
Will test tomorrow with no-cp rule and fully naked to decrease chance of error, maybe it fault of pvp debuff, might be my error but i rechecked 3 times as this damage nerf occured only in pvp.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

So, here is Part 2:

Did further researches and can confirm Elemental Defender and Thickskinned incorrectly working with only Puncturing Sweeps (Apparently as Hardy for Biting Jabs)

Short results:
Live/PTS
1. 10 points into Thickskinned:

already 8 less damage difference on pts. 13crit.

2. 10 points into Elemental Defender:

already 4 less damage difference on pts. 6crit.

3. 10 points into Ele Def+10 Thickskinned:

already 10 less damage difference on pts. 16crit.
______________________________________

I dont have time to compile and edit 20+ screenshots so here is my raw notes indicating that damage difference occure only for Jabs and only with Red CP costellation:

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

P.S.: everything tested full-naked, so no mistake on my part.
P.S.S.: make me happy to be no-CPer

Ariades_swe · January 2018

It's fascinating how they manage to break so many things when they try to fix a few bugs...

Trashs1 · January 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

So:
1. Jabs and its 140% damage:

Tried closest to 1000 damage. As you can see its something like 140.XX%. So, tooltip state right amount of damage.

2. About actual damage to closest target:

It does deal same amount of damage as tooltip state. So, 140% seems works properly.

3. About raw damage: Live/PTS
a. Initial damage stay the same(not sure why 1 less damage), since nothing was changed here:

b. As Joy said minor berserk is additive, and nothing changed here too, damage is same:

c. But as first patchnotes said damage taken, like minor vulnerability, is no longer additive, and here is buff changes as on live it is suffer from being additive and as result less than 8%, but on pts it is boosting flat 8% damage increase that don't losing its % when combined with berserk:
without and with Slimecraw' berserk while enemy vulnerable:

In theory it look like it work as it intended, but NO, tested closest damage in pvp in exactly same gear/CP/skillbar against opponent with exact same gear/CP/skillbar and result is sad:

Whatever changed with calculation of CP damage taken it ended in monstrous damage nerf for pvp.
Will test tomorrow with no-cp rule and fully naked to decrease chance of error, maybe it fault of pvp debuff, might be my error but i rechecked 3 times as this damage nerf occured only in pvp.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

So, here is Part 2:

Did further researches and can confirm Elemental Defender and Thickskinned incorrectly working with only Puncturing Sweeps (Apparently as Hardy for Biting Jabs)

Short results:
Live/PTS
1. 10 points into Thickskinned:

already 8 less damage difference on pts. 13crit.

2. 10 points into Elemental Defender:

already 4 less damage difference on pts. 6crit.

3. 10 points into Ele Def+10 Thickskinned:

already 10 less damage difference on pts. 16crit.
______________________________________

I dont have time to compile and edit 20+ screenshots so here is my raw notes indicating that damage difference occure only for Jabs and only with Red CP costellation:

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

P.S.: everything tested full-naked, so no mistake on my part.
P.S.S.: make me happy to be no-CPer

hey @Cinbri thx for further testing, are u in one of the red pvp guilds on sotha?^^

Cinbri · January 2018

Trashs1 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

So:
1. Jabs and its 140% damage:

Tried closest to 1000 damage. As you can see its something like 140.XX%. So, tooltip state right amount of damage.

2. About actual damage to closest target:

It does deal same amount of damage as tooltip state. So, 140% seems works properly.

3. About raw damage: Live/PTS
a. Initial damage stay the same(not sure why 1 less damage), since nothing was changed here:

b. As Joy said minor berserk is additive, and nothing changed here too, damage is same:

c. But as first patchnotes said damage taken, like minor vulnerability, is no longer additive, and here is buff changes as on live it is suffer from being additive and as result less than 8%, but on pts it is boosting flat 8% damage increase that don't losing its % when combined with berserk:
without and with Slimecraw' berserk while enemy vulnerable:

In theory it look like it work as it intended, but NO, tested closest damage in pvp in exactly same gear/CP/skillbar against opponent with exact same gear/CP/skillbar and result is sad:

Whatever changed with calculation of CP damage taken it ended in monstrous damage nerf for pvp.
Will test tomorrow with no-cp rule and fully naked to decrease chance of error, maybe it fault of pvp debuff, might be my error but i rechecked 3 times as this damage nerf occured only in pvp.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

So, here is Part 2:

Did further researches and can confirm Elemental Defender and Thickskinned incorrectly working with only Puncturing Sweeps (Apparently as Hardy for Biting Jabs)

Short results:
Live/PTS
1. 10 points into Thickskinned:

already 8 less damage difference on pts. 13crit.

2. 10 points into Elemental Defender:

already 4 less damage difference on pts. 6crit.

3. 10 points into Ele Def+10 Thickskinned:

already 10 less damage difference on pts. 16crit.
______________________________________

I dont have time to compile and edit 20+ screenshots so here is my raw notes indicating that damage difference occure only for Jabs and only with Red CP costellation:

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

P.S.: everything tested full-naked, so no mistake on my part.
P.S.S.: make me happy to be no-CPer

hey @Cinbri thx for further testing, are u in one of the red pvp guilds on sotha?^^

Its name in my signature.
It seems for safety someone has to waste another 2+ hours to test if RD and RO even working after fixes.

danno8 · January 2018

Ariades_swe wrote: »

It's fascinating how they manage to break so many things when they try to fix a few bugs...

Seriously. It's like they don't have a basic flowchart of what to check when altering a skill formulae or creating a new skill/set/etc...

lohworm · January 2018

Do they even know the concept of unit testing ?

Cinbri · January 2018

506->1319 on live.
506->1466 on pts.
At least Radiant Opression seems not bugged with CP and has higher damage below 50%hp.

Trashs1 · January 2018

after seeing some new posts of templar bugs on pts

plz @ZOS_GinaBruno bring them to the devs again

Minno · January 2018

Trashs1 wrote: »

after seeing some new posts of templar bugs on pts

plz @ZOS_GinaBruno bring them to the devs again

Bump for thread importance.

Also, I think this got sent to wrobel for review! (so ive heard).

ZOS_GinaBruno · January 2018

Minno wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

after seeing some new posts of templar bugs on pts

plz @ZOS_GinaBruno bring them to the devs again

Bump for thread importance.

Also, I think this got sent to wrobel for review! (so ive heard).

You heard correctly! Passed the testing and info from @Cinbri along to dig into. Thanks!

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

Hopefully this stuff gets fixed before live.

zParallaxz · January 2018

Sorry guys to post here but it seems like the only thread ZOS has actively communicated on. Feels pretty bad to see a class that does pretty well in pvp and needs some minor bug fixes getting acknowledged from the developers, rather than a class that gets unnecessarily nerfed with explanations and no feedback from the developers. So while you guys ask me to post on another forum about dk, it ain’t like ZOS going to respond it to it. LOL

West93 · January 2018

zParallaxz wrote: »

Sorry guys to post here but it seems like the only thread ZOS has actively communicated on. Feels pretty bad to see a class that does pretty well in pvp and needs some minor bug fixes getting acknowledged from the developers, rather than a class that gets unnecessarily nerfed with explanations and no feedback from the developers. So while you guys ask me to post on another forum about dk, it ain’t like ZOS going to respond it to it. LOL

These bug fixes are major and not minor and they have not been fixed since morrowind release, templar doesn't do well in solo open world pvp, being a healbot doesn't count.

usmcjdking · January 2018

zParallaxz wrote: »

Sorry guys to post here but it seems like the only thread ZOS has actively communicated on. Feels pretty bad to see a class that does pretty well in pvp and needs some minor bug fixes getting acknowledged from the developers, rather than a class that gets unnecessarily nerfed with explanations and no feedback from the developers. So while you guys ask me to post on another forum about dk, it ain’t like ZOS going to respond it to it. LOL

And why do you think that is?

We have @Joy_Division dropping his thesis posts and @Cinbri coming here with broken English and 50 pages worth of screenshots, videos and maths to depict to us single-language inferiors the nature of what isn't working appropriately.

Meanwhile the DK thread is filled with nothing but conjecture, memes and troll posts.

You think there is a class bias when there really is a feedback bias. One class has demonstrably provided quality feedback while the other has not provided anything worth reading.

Kwik1 · January 2018

zParallaxz wrote: »

Sorry guys to post here but it seems like the only thread ZOS has actively communicated on. Feels pretty bad to see a class that does pretty well in pvp and needs some minor bug fixes getting acknowledged from the developers, rather than a class that gets unnecessarily nerfed with explanations and no feedback from the developers. So while you guys ask me to post on another forum about dk, it ain’t like ZOS going to respond it to it. LOL

Yeah I see the same thing. At least the Templars are posting actual data from PTS and helping ZOS determine if something is actually WAI or not, while DK posts just scream about being underperforming and throwing out opinions on why it should be changed...

Cinbri · January 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

and @Cinbri coming here with broken English

But I try my best
spongebobpatrickcrying_zps9705e04b.gif?w=280&h=210&fit=crop

(hope it made at least someone to smile atleast for a second while reading this thread)

Lets all just wait and see what Monday patch will bring us. Maybe it will be something amazing and everyone, including dk will be happy.