Fix Templar

Animus-ESO · January 2018

Zinaroth wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Short recap from eso live:
1. Strikes formula changed again to fix damage bug.
2. Fast-placed solution of strikes terrible connection with enemy is increase its aoe from current 8x5 to 8x6. Along with unblockable snare thats should help for now.
And its only documented changes.
Will post small compilation of couple more problems/bugs a bit later.

Sweeps aoe is #rekttiger.

Thank you for staying on top of this!! Hopefully ZOS continues to pay attention, Templars, especially Magplars, have been towards the bottom for far too long and definitely need a boost.

Templars in general need some love. I do however not understand how you can rate Stamplars over Magplars currently. While Templars in general suffer from an unspired class ideology that lacks interesting build synergy, and Magplars suffer from bugs, Stamplars suffer from an ideology in total - rendering almost all class abilities useless. Currently the worst stam spec by far and Magplar outshines it in all small scale and solo play due to its increased defensive capabilities. Just my opinion.

Bro. You are sooo wrong. In high end pvp, stamplars stomp magplar in all aspects. Contrary to belief stamplar heals are better then magplar, Simply because vigor is a HOT, couple that with rally and shuffle not only does there defense and burst healing surpass magplar they have way more movement speed. Pop an immove-pot and your kiting zerglings all night crushing fools with dawnbreaker. They have 1) more burst potential 2) better movement on the battlefield 3) better healing 4) more access to high damage heavy armor sets like ravager and truth.

technohic · January 2018

Not only does Stamplar beat magplar in PvP outside of a dedicated healer; they are right behind Stam Warden, mag DK and Stam NB as independent builds outside of ball groups

Zinaroth · January 2018

Please tell me what makes Stamplar so great for solo PvP in terms of class passives and active class skils and interesting gear choises that augment said passives and skills?

Rally, Vigor and Shutfle are available to all stam specs.

I agree they have more burst potential than Magplar - however I don't agree that they have better escape/mobility. Magplar can go Vamp and Mist Form is ingenious for this. Coupled with Rune it makes for a great survival/sustain tool. Magplar does not have quite enough burst to kill the really tanky builld, but those tanky builds will never kill them either.

Honestly just go to a dueling spot and see how few templars there are and then see how many of those are magicka - it will be most. Next time you're taking a stroll through Cyrodiil pay attention to the templars you meet and you will see most are Magplar. I want to believe and agree with you guys but almost four years of experience with Templar class dictates otherwise.

However if you can honestly tell me which class skills, passives and gear choises make Stamplar so great I am open for suggestion. I am always looking for advice to better myself. But as it stands now I don't see how Stamplar could be viewed as anything else than a bottom feeder.

But let's keep it in PMs. My intention was not to derail this thread and if I intend to make some "buff stamplar" QQ post/thread - I will do so with actual details and not just my word against orhers. I was just cinserely curious about the reasoning.

LOL'd a bit at the placement right below Stamwarden though.

Edit: All in terms of PvP. In PvE the DPS difference is miniscule outside an organized raid group, and inside it's like a couple of thousand at most so balance here is somewhat good.

Destruent · January 2018

Zinaroth wrote: »

Edit: All in terms of PvP. In PvE the DPS difference is miniscule outside an organized raid group, and inside it's like a couple of thousand at most so balance here is somewhat good.

I haven't seen magplar-parses for a while, but i highly doubt they can do much more than 50k DPS in a raid environment. Stamplar (especially with the fix to PotL) can easily go up to 60k+ DPS while increasing group-DPS without special rotation...something a magplar can't do. A 10k difference is imo no "couple of thousands" and big enough to never let a magplar join a raid at all.
But that's not a magplar/stamplar-problem, it's a magicka/stamina problem. It's the same (if not even worse) for every class.

Solinur · January 2018

Destruent wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Edit: All in terms of PvP. In PvE the DPS difference is miniscule outside an organized raid group, and inside it's like a couple of thousand at most so balance here is somewhat good.

I haven't seen magplar-parses for a while, but i highly doubt they can do much more than 50k DPS in a raid environment. Stamplar (especially with the fix to PotL) can easily go up to 60k+ DPS while increasing group-DPS without special rotation...something a magplar can't do. A 10k difference is imo no "couple of thousands" and big enough to never let a magplar join a raid at all.
But that's not a magplar/stamplar-problem, it's a magicka/stamina problem. It's the same (if not even worse) for every class.

If DPS is the only factor that would be true, however it seems (to me) that the hardest fights in game are easier if you bring magicka classes and trade DPS for easier survivability. As soon as you manage those encounters with stamina though, you'll be faster ofc.

Maura_Neysa · January 2018

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

I didn't think it was possible but you broke Templar even more ZOS , I rejoiced when I saw the natch potes but after going into the PTS I just wanted to delete my character.

THINGS THAT ARE BROKEN:

Puncturing Sweep:
Missing 50% of the damage on moving targets
The sounds have changed (not a big deal but makes me uneasy)
Puncturing Sweep is doing LESS damage now then live
Puncturing Sweep is not healing while doing damage
Seems like the cone of damage Puncturing Sweep provides is more narrow now.
Seems like Puncturing Sweep cone of damage is lagging behind the player casting it(I move faster now but the cone doesnt)
Radiant oppression:
This skill is not scaling correctly still, practically worthless as a execute vs players

Watch the Live stream they talk about it. They are fixing the heal, they can't the visual effect/hit box miss match so they upped the box to 6 meters wide, up from 5. lastly its NOT a cone its a rectangle, always has been. All the rest is just yo missing because of the visual miss match.

Destruent · January 2018

Solinur wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Edit: All in terms of PvP. In PvE the DPS difference is miniscule outside an organized raid group, and inside it's like a couple of thousand at most so balance here is somewhat good.

I haven't seen magplar-parses for a while, but i highly doubt they can do much more than 50k DPS in a raid environment. Stamplar (especially with the fix to PotL) can easily go up to 60k+ DPS while increasing group-DPS without special rotation...something a magplar can't do. A 10k difference is imo no "couple of thousands" and big enough to never let a magplar join a raid at all.
But that's not a magplar/stamplar-problem, it's a magicka/stamina problem. It's the same (if not even worse) for every class.

If DPS is the only factor that would be true, however it seems (to me) that the hardest fights in game are easier if you bring magicka classes and trade DPS for easier survivability. As soon as you manage those encounters with stamina though, you'll be faster ofc.

There is actually one fight in that game where it really matters, and that's vAS+2, everything else you can do with 4+ stamina-DPS and fill the rest with magicka-ranged.

Solinur · January 2018

Destruent wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Edit: All in terms of PvP. In PvE the DPS difference is miniscule outside an organized raid group, and inside it's like a couple of thousand at most so balance here is somewhat good.

I haven't seen magplar-parses for a while, but i highly doubt they can do much more than 50k DPS in a raid environment. Stamplar (especially with the fix to PotL) can easily go up to 60k+ DPS while increasing group-DPS without special rotation...something a magplar can't do. A 10k difference is imo no "couple of thousands" and big enough to never let a magplar join a raid at all.
But that's not a magplar/stamplar-problem, it's a magicka/stamina problem. It's the same (if not even worse) for every class.

If DPS is the only factor that would be true, however it seems (to me) that the hardest fights in game are easier if you bring magicka classes and trade DPS for easier survivability. As soon as you manage those encounters with stamina though, you'll be faster ofc.

There is actually one fight in that game where it really matters, and that's vAS+2, everything else you can do with 4+ stamina-DPS and fill the rest with magicka-ranged.

I was also thinking of Rhakkhat HM. If you are used to the fight you do it with more stam and burn down before too many ppl need to go to the yard. But raids that are new there will find it hard to do so and tend to stack more magickas.

But in the end I find this also a bit hypothetical as you can bring a magplar without problems. The issue is, that it's not the best solution.

Cinbri · January 2018

So, part 2.

1. Spear Shards - cosmetic problems:
Initial skill and Luminous Shards missing its red telegraph despite any version of skill has DoT in it:

Blazing Spear does have it but despite fix to AoE radius of damage red telegraph wasn't update and thus show wrong radius, making people wonder why they getting hit by it:

As you can see something in visual setting also makes Spear invisible.

2. Solar Barrage - still same cosmetic bug that make visual apply on caster upon weaving light attack right after cast:

3. Burning Light - it's proc is blockable. While Implosion is unblockable. It is proc only on Shards aoe or channel of Strikes in addition to several skills with low procrate and unable to proc on dots/bleeds weapon damage, in addition that templar damage is pressure and it lack of tools against tanks+ all classes will get blocking buff next update - we could get unblockable BL too.

4. Radiant Destruction - same as once Soul Assault - it should loose its duration of empty channel in the beginning of skill. This empty duration lead to decreased reliability of execute coz: delayed damage is harder to use against enemy in pvp when every second allow enemy to get out of execute range, making execute unviable. In case of RD that leading to even worse problems:
1. Delayed cast allow enemy simply cancel your execute by interrupt you and prevent from using it all along:

^^Countered before harm even done. Purging result in same result
2. Another example is that execute is not automatically cancelling empty channel and such in group play when you start cast it on enemy who was killed meanwhile by teammates - you stuck in channeling full beam on corpse and forced manually cancel it:

^^Looks nice but feels terrible.
Unlike sorc execute you cant blockcast it nor animation cancel, and this problem to channel damage not same second but after empty channel duration making you vulnerable to counter-attacks and RD overall "slower".

5. Not pure Templar but still related - Pirate Skeleton set - bugged for quite a long and allow its 2pc Minor Defile to be purgable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6IXhLJl-9s
After some time its debuff was placed in category of buffs to prevent it being purged by skills, yet this treatment stopped working in some of the patches and it cleansable once again. Bug allowing to bypass set mechanic to grant very strong bonus and thus should be finally fixed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

ADarklore · January 2018

So did the update today actually FIX some of the Templar problems?!?

Minno · January 2018

ANOTHER GOOD POST CINBRI!

Agree that Pirate needs it's defile put back on as unpurgable.

Agree on burning light. Feels like a bug.

Aedaryl · January 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

So, part 2.

1. Spear Shards - cosmetic problems:
Initial skill and Luminous Shards missing its red telegraph despite any version of skill has DoT in it:

Blazing Spear does have it but despite fix to AoE radius of damage red telegraph wasn't update and thus show wrong radius, making people wonder why they getting hit by it:

As you can see something in visual setting also makes Spear invisible.

2. Solar Barrage - still same cosmetic bug that make visual apply on caster upon weaving light attack right after cast:

3. Burning Light - it's proc is blockable. While Implosion is unblockable. It is proc only on Shards aoe or channel of Strikes in addition to several skills with low procrate and unable to proc on dots/bleeds weapon damage, in addition that templar damage is pressure and it lack of tools against tanks+ all classes will get blocking buff next update - we could get unblockable BL too.

4. Radiant Destruction - same as once Soul Assault - it should loose its duration of empty channel in the beginning of skill. This empty duration lead to decreased reliability of execute coz: delayed damage is harder to use against enemy in pvp when every second allow enemy to get out of execute range, making execute unviable. In case of RD that leading to even worse problems:
1. Delayed cast allow enemy simply cancel your execute by interrupt you and prevent from using it all along:

^^Countered before harm even done. Purging result in same result
2. Another example is that execute is not automatically cancelling empty channel and such in group play when you start cast it on enemy who was killed meanwhile by teammates - you stuck in channeling full beam on corpse and forced manually cancel it:

^^Looks nice but feels terrible.
Unlike sorc execute you cant blockcast it nor animation cancel, and this problem to channel damage not same second but after empty channel duration making you vulnerable to counter-attacks and RD overall "slower".

5. Not pure Templar but still related - Pirate Skeleton set - bugged for quite a long and allow its 2pc Minor Defile to be purgable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6IXhLJl-9s
After some time its debuff was placed in category of buffs to prevent it being purged by skills, yet this treatment stopped working in some of the patches and it cleansable once again. Bug allowing to bypass set mechanic to grant very strong bonus and thus should be finally fixed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

Amazing work

Since ZoS listen to you, can you ask them if atronach base damage huge nerf is intented or not please ?

Soris · January 2018

I personally want and saw a need to one of the morphs of Heling Ritual could restore some stamina to group overtime but as a resonable amount to worth it cast every 10 second or so. It could be an instant restore too but idk maybe you'd want a different mechanic than stamsorc.
I want my group buff repentance too.

cazlonb16_ESO · January 2018

My preliminary tests indicate that Biting Jabs damage is virtually unchanged in 3.3.2 compared to live. So if the calculations were changed at all, the results seem to be neglible. Tests were done with copied character from EU server.

I'm too lazy to post pictures, there is nothing to see anyway as they are identical.

NiclasFridholm · January 2018

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

My preliminary tests indicate that Biting Jabs damage is virtually unchanged in 3.3.2 compared to live. So if the calculations were changed at all, the results seem to be neglible. Tests were done with copied character from EU server.

I'm too lazy to post pictures, there is nothing to see anyway as they are identical.

RIP, ty for testing!

Trashs1 · January 2018

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

My preliminary tests indicate that Biting Jabs damage is virtually unchanged in 3.3.2 compared to live. So if the calculations were changed at all, the results seem to be neglible. Tests were done with copied character from EU server.

I'm too lazy to post pictures, there is nothing to see anyway as they are identical.

maybe they took the lazy route and just implemented the old skill again... which kinda worked

FlamingBeard · January 2018

Trashs1 wrote: »

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

My preliminary tests indicate that Biting Jabs damage is virtually unchanged in 3.3.2 compared to live. So if the calculations were changed at all, the results seem to be neglible. Tests were done with copied character from EU server.

I'm too lazy to post pictures, there is nothing to see anyway as they are identical.

maybe they took the lazy route and just implemented the old skill again... which kinda worked

Which would defeat the past three weeks of Templar tweaks on PTS, which were SUPPOSED to give Sweeps/Jabs their rightful tooltips.

They should bring in other coders to assist them if they really can't even be bothered to fix the main spammable damage skill of one class which has been broken for nearly a year.

technohic · January 2018

We need some EU players to step up and post the details with screenshots like Joy did on both their live toon and their exact copy on PTS; otherwise we will be waiting until next character copy for Joy and Cinbri to have access and are probably up *** creek at that point.

danno8 · January 2018

technohic wrote: »

We need some EU players to step up and post the details with screenshots like Joy did on bother their live toon and their exact copy on PTS; otherwise we will be waiting until next character copy for Joy and Cinbri to have access and are probably up *** creek at that point.

What we really need is for someone to throw on a Slimecraw 2-pc and see if there is a difference from live to PTS.

On live the calculation for Jabs and Slimecraw is something like base * [1+(1.4+.08)], so for 1000 damage it would be 2480.

It should be more like base * [1+1.4] * [1+.08] for around 2592.

The damage difference starts to get very noticeable with larger numbers (both base numbers and things like the 320% execute on RD) and especially multiple % damage bonuses.

AFAIK no one has tested this part yet due to Jabs being so broken at the start of PTS.

ADarklore · January 2018

The ONLY way this is going to get fixed is if EU players actually start doing what Cinbri has been doing... testing and posting results. You wonder WHY things don't get fixed when you offer anecdotal data with 'I'm too lazy to post pictures', then later complain about things not getting fixed; even if they are the same, post pictures and address it to Gina or Wrobel.

Joy_Division · January 2018

danno8 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

We need some EU players to step up and post the details with screenshots like Joy did on bother their live toon and their exact copy on PTS; otherwise we will be waiting until next character copy for Joy and Cinbri to have access and are probably up *** creek at that point.

What we really need is for someone to throw on a Slimecraw 2-pc and see if there is a difference from live to PTS.

On live the calculation for Jabs and Slimecraw is something like base * [1+(1.4+.08)], so for 1000 damage it would be 2480.

It should be more like base * [1+1.4] * [1+.08] for around 2592.

The damage difference starts to get very noticeable with larger numbers (both base numbers and things like the 320% execute on RD) and especially multiple % damage bonuses.

AFAIK no one has tested this part yet due to Jabs being so broken at the start of PTS.

It's not that simple at multiplying by 8%.

Minor Berserk is subject to diminishing returns and is additive so actually ups s full CP spec's damage by only about 5.7%.

But, yes, comparaing the exact same setup on Live to PTS should show any differences.

Trashs1 · January 2018

can anyone thest this^°?

Cinbri · January 2018

Already tested. Will post screenshot when I will come back home if people interested.

Cinbri · January 2018

So:
1. Jabs and its 140% damage:

Tried closest to 1000 damage. As you can see its something like 140.XX%. So, tooltip state right amount of damage.

2. About actual damage to closest target:

It does deal same amount of damage as tooltip state. So, 140% seems works properly.

3. About raw damage: Live/PTS
a. Initial damage stay the same(not sure why 1 less damage), since nothing was changed here:

b. As Joy said minor berserk is additive, and nothing changed here too, damage is same:

c. But as first patchnotes said damage taken, like minor vulnerability, is no longer additive, and here is buff changes as on live it is suffer from being additive and as result less than 8%, but on pts it is boosting flat 8% damage increase that don't losing its % when combined with berserk:
without and with Slimecraw' berserk while enemy vulnerable:

In theory it look like it work as it intended, but NO, tested closest damage in pvp in exactly same gear/CP/skillbar against opponent with exact same gear/CP/skillbar and result is sad:

Whatever changed with calculation of CP damage taken it ended in monstrous damage nerf for pvp.
Will test tomorrow with no-cp rule and fully naked to decrease chance of error, maybe it fault of pvp debuff, might be my error but i rechecked 3 times as this damage nerf occured only in pvp.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

maxjapank · January 2018

Thanks @Cinbri . I sure get disappointed sometimes. With all the balancing they try, we are just asking for bugs to b fixed. I want my dmg to do the dmg it’s intended. No more no less.

West93 · January 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

So:
1. Jabs and its 140% damage:

Tried closest to 1000 damage. As you can see its something like 140.XX%. So, tooltip state right amount of damage.

2. About actual damage to closest target:

It does deal same amount of damage as tooltip state. So, 140% seems works properly.

3. About raw damage: Live/PTS
a. Initial damage stay the same(not sure why 1 less damage), since nothing was changed here:

b. As Joy said minor berserk is additive, and nothing changed here too, damage is same:

c. But as first patchnotes said damage taken, like minor vulnerability, is no longer additive, and here is buff changes as on live it is suffer from being additive and as result less than 8%, but on pts it is boosting flat 8% damage increase that don't losing its % when combined with berserk:
without and with Slimecraw' berserk while enemy vulnerable:

In theory it look like it work as it intended, but NO, tested closest damage in pvp in exactly same gear/CP/skillbar against opponent with exact same gear/CP/skillbar and result is sad:

Whatever changed with calculation of CP damage taken it ended in monstrous damage nerf for pvp.
Might test tomorrow with no-cp rule, maybe it fault of pvp debuff, but doubtfull.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

RIP fellow templars

danno8 · January 2018

Cinbri wrote: »

So:
1. Jabs and its 140% damage:

Tried closest to 1000 damage. As you can see its something like 140.XX%. So, tooltip state right amount of damage.

2. About actual damage to closest target:

It does deal same amount of damage as tooltip state. So, 140% seems works properly.

3. About raw damage: Live/PTS
a. Initial damage stay the same(not sure why 1 less damage), since nothing was changed here:

b. As Joy said minor berserk is additive, and nothing changed here too, damage is same:

c. But as first patchnotes said damage taken, like minor vulnerability, is no longer additive, and here is buff changes as on live it is suffer from being additive and as result less than 8%, but on pts it is boosting flat 8% damage increase that don't losing its % when combined with berserk:
without and with Slimecraw' berserk while enemy vulnerable:

In theory it look like it work as it intended, but NO, tested closest damage in pvp in exactly same gear/CP/skillbar against opponent with exact same gear/CP/skillbar and result is sad:

Whatever changed with calculation of CP damage taken it ended in monstrous damage nerf for pvp.
Will test tomorrow with no-cp rule and fully naked to decrease chance of error, maybe it fault of pvp debuff, might be my error but i rechecked 3 times as this damage nerf occured only in pvp.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

At this point, this is how I feel when ZoS applies a fix to Templars:

Cinbri · January 2018

West93 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

So:
1. Jabs and its 140% damage:

Tried closest to 1000 damage. As you can see its something like 140.XX%. So, tooltip state right amount of damage.

2. About actual damage to closest target:

It does deal same amount of damage as tooltip state. So, 140% seems works properly.

3. About raw damage: Live/PTS
a. Initial damage stay the same(not sure why 1 less damage), since nothing was changed here:

b. As Joy said minor berserk is additive, and nothing changed here too, damage is same:

c. But as first patchnotes said damage taken, like minor vulnerability, is no longer additive, and here is buff changes as on live it is suffer from being additive and as result less than 8%, but on pts it is boosting flat 8% damage increase that don't losing its % when combined with berserk:
without and with Slimecraw' berserk while enemy vulnerable:

In theory it look like it work as it intended, but NO, tested closest damage in pvp in exactly same gear/CP/skillbar against opponent with exact same gear/CP/skillbar and result is sad:

Whatever changed with calculation of CP damage taken it ended in monstrous damage nerf for pvp.
Might test tomorrow with no-cp rule, maybe it fault of pvp debuff, but doubtfull.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

RIP fellow templars

Would be nice if someone from EU tested it too. Didnt test it on other damage skills yet. Maybe it is entire CP damage taken costellation not working properly, but than how it left unnoticed for 2 weeks. Maybe it just me did something wrong, but than I dont see source of mistake.

FlamingBeard · January 2018

I'm not sure what exactly the following information means for Puncturing Sweeps next update, but these are my current test results on PTS and on PC/NA (live):

(here are each toon's stats to prove that the stats affecting these skills are identical on each toon)

The CP-invested screenshots have 44 Elfborn, 28 Spell Erosion, 43 Elemental Expert, 40 Master-at-Arms, 75 Thaumaturge

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [2507 per hit] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [2417 per hit]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1640 per hit] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [1562 per hit]

all 4 tests were performed on 6 million health skeletons

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [1458 base tooltip] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [1405 base tooltip]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1027 base tooltip] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [979 base tooltip]

In all instances, with the same stats and penetration, while damaging the same type of targets, Live server's Puncturing Sweep consistently outperforms PTS server's Puncturing Sweep.

Do what you will with this information but it's rather concerning.

Cinbri · January 2018

FlamingBeard wrote: »

I'm not sure what exactly the following information means for Puncturing Sweeps next update, but these are my current test results on PTS and on PC/NA (live):

(here are each toon's stats to prove that the stats affecting these skills are identical on each toon)

The CP-invested screenshots have 44 Elfborn, 28 Spell Erosion, 43 Elemental Expert, 40 Master-at-Arms, 75 Thaumaturge

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [2507 per hit] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [2417 per hit]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1640 per hit] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [1562 per hit]

all 4 tests were performed on 6 million health skeletons

Top-Left: CP-enabled (Live server) [1458 base tooltip] -- Top-Right: CP-enabled (PTS) [1405 base tooltip]
Bottom-Left: No Blue-CP (Live Server) [1027 base tooltip] -- Bottom-Right: No Blue-CP (PTS) [979 base tooltip]

In all instances, with the same stats and penetration, while damaging the same type of targets, Live server's Puncturing Sweep consistently outperforms PTS server's Puncturing Sweep.

Do what you will with this information but it's rather concerning.

Hm. Something messy.