What's your thoughts about upcoming perma-block changes?

eso_lags · December 2017

Ashtaris wrote: »

My thoughts? Again, this is another attempt to balance PVP at the great expense of PVE. I just wish ZOS would tie these nerfs to the Battle Spirit passive and leave PVE alone.

I dont give a damn about pve, but i agree with this 100%. This seems like the only logical and and fair option. People have been asking for it for so long but zos wont to it.

This goes back to why the wont let us console players, plagued by AWFUL performance, transfer to pc. Why they wont return the VMA set shields removed from my inventory when the CWC patch came out (and replaced with new vma shields).. Why they wont add so many simple things that so many of us want and that would help the game so much. The reason is because they dont have to, they dont want to, and we will still play so they dont care..

If something is not on their to do list they arent going to take what we want into account, unless its minor changes with things like skill nerfs (example: curse).. I dont think they will ever add something in the game like that unless its either small or on their to do list.

And no i dont think separating pvp and pve with battle spirit would be easy but it would make the issue a thousand times better.

Drummerx04 · December 2017

hydrocynus wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

hydrocynus wrote: »

Thing is that tanks that perma block on pve are doing a disservice to the group. Constant blocking = limited application of crusher + weakened debuffs.

So group friendly tanks aren't perma blocking in PVE so this time the changes intended for PVP won't be affecting PVE that much.

@hydrocynus You have to drop block for a whole 2s for the regen to tick. If you dropped block for 1.5s, and then reactivated block, the timer resets again, and it would be as if you had been permablocking the entire time, as far as the regen penalty goes. I.e., if you drop block for 1.5s, block, and then drop block for another 1.5s, you would get zero regen even though you dropped block for 3s total.

This means that someone dropping block momentarily to light-attack is getting the exact same regen penalty as someone who is actually permablocking.

So those who drop block to light attack to keep up Crusher uptime will be just as affected, contrary to your incorrect claim. (Also, enchantments are applied on weapon ability usage as well, so retaunting or low slashing will have the same effect, if they can't drop block at that moment for a light attack.)

I think you are doing it wrong. The idea is not to block all the time and stop blocking to do 1 light attack to apply crusher. If you are doing that you probably don't have crusher up as much as your team would like. Block when you need to and don't block when you don't need to. That's what they are pushing us towards which isn't such a bad thing. And when you do that you will not stress too much about the regen.

We know what ZOS wants us to do. The problem is often that it's not feasible in a lot of cases to block reflexively (especially with high ping). There are even some vet trials bosses that pretty much animation cancel 90k hits on the tank, and other attacks register as connecting on the server before you even see the swing.

Truthfully, the only thing I see as a problem with perma blocking in PvP is the S&B ultimate. It's cheap, it refunds DK resources, allows free blocking for 6 seconds and reflects spells.

The only time true tanks bother me in PvP is when I meet one solo in the wild and he follows me for 20 miles casting gap closers and petrify, but otherwise deals basically 0 damage. You are just being annoying at that point.

Nifty2g · December 2017

It's not too bad but its ridiculous they keep saying deal with it to PvE tanks pretty much. Maybe one day they will decide to split PvE and PvP up and we won't have to deal with this crap.

IcyDeadPeople · December 2017

There are 6 ways to mitigate damage in this game

Block
Frequent dodge roll
RNG evasion / miss chance
High resistances / crit resistance
Major/minor protection
Shields

Already block became quite a bit more costly with previous updates. Currently it is not possible to sit there and block forever unless you specifically build for it. Nobody in PVP should have any problem with true perma-block tanks like Escorpiao Noturno, Hattori Hanzo etc. There should be plenty of room in this game for extreme tank builds who are very difficult to kill but hit like wet noodle, squishy glass cannon builds who deal tremendous burst damage, and everybody else in between.

What people have a problem with are builds that are both extremely tanky and dealing tremendous damage. There is room for clever theorycrafting while still increasing the tradeoffs for damage output vs tankiness. It is possible to block quite a lot on magicka DK with 13k stam - perhaps slightly more tradeoff is reasonable although personally I would not be a fan.

The larger problem is lack of balance among medium, light and heavy armor.

Medium armor is a lot more squishy than light or heavy. Instead of buffing medium to provide more protection, I'd suggest light armor should be closer to medium in terms of squishiness, and heavy needs to be on lower damage tier compared to light/med. The large shield abilities (dampen magic and hardened ward) should also be a little smaller, maxing out around 10-12k PVP / 20-24k PVE when you have max bastion, 7/7 light and 50k max magicka.

At the same time add physical penetration passive to medium, spell damage passive to light, adjust armor passives so they scale higher with 7/7 of that armor type, and the end result will put light/med on higher tier of damage compared to heavy, also both a bit squishier.

IcyDeadPeople · December 2017

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

Permablocking is only an issue in CP PvP.

Draw your own conclusions.

It's not.
And the OP is wrong, the fix is for Block Casting, not permablock. Permablock isn't a problem in Cyrodiil anymore.

If you remove block casting, all of PVP becomes Elder Immovable Pot / Dizzying Swing online

DKsUnite · December 2017

code65536 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

I will probably have to redo my magicka DK. Playing a no-shields light armor build without blocking just isn't possible - as soon as you drop block, you die(as demonstrated by me getting feared at full HP, and dying before my break free animation completes >.<).

But hey - i like challenges, bring it on. I'll think of something.

But are you using block cost reduction enchantments on your jewelry? If not, then you'll have lower block costs next patch and this change will be a buff to you. The people most heavily nerfed as the ones running 3 enchantments--i.e., all the "true" tanks.

@code65536 i mean i run 3x block cost reduction but dont consider myself a tank. I've built myself "tanky" but not straight out tank. To me, a true perma block tank is those builds that run all sturdy + maxed block CP + absorb magic + 3x enchants. Those are the people building to be true perma block.

All in all however, I really dont think that perma blocking is a problem anymore especially when you consider how many abilities go through block and all the CC that goes through block. It is up to the player to counter his opponent using aoe and CC like fear/fossilize/rune prison/shards. If you dont want to run those skills then you are going to be at a disadvantage against those types of builds, it's as simple as that.

It's like a ganker running bow-bow against a mDK who uses wings and then saying that the mDK is too strong even though it's the gankers fault for building a sub par build that hasnt got universal application.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

What people have a problem with are builds that are both extremely tanky and dealing tremendous damage. There is room for clever theorycrafting while still increasing the tradeoffs for damage output vs tankiness. It is possible to block quite a lot on magicka DK with 13k stam - perhaps slightly more tradeoff is reasonable although personally I would not be a fan.

The larger problem is lack of balance among medium, light and heavy armor.

@IcyDeadPeople

armour balance doesn't come into play here. I run the 11k stam mDK build (and have been for 4+ months) in light armour. If what you are suggesting is to happen, it would make my build stronger and while i would greatly welcome more damage, I know I shouldn't get it.

Just a final note:

While I can see people's frustrations with this type of build, every build has counters and if people only spent a bit more time investing their energy and resources into developing their own builds and skill instead of complaining, we would be in a better place. I fell into this build after countless hours theorycrafting offline, then i grinded for hours to get the money and gear i needed to test it, and then i spent many hours play testing it in solo open world/small group applications so i could fine tune it to perform at the absolute best it could. Obviously there have been builds and set ups (like 2-3 proc set builds back in the day) that needs to be nerfed by the devs as players literally couldn't build against it but this isn't one of those cases.

Fischblut · December 2017

My thoughts about any nerfs to blocking: my tanks make great storage mules already

I just wonder how much worse changes we can expect

ak_pvp · December 2017

Skoomah wrote: »

It's time to eliminate permablocking capability. You shouldn't be able to permablock AND deal tons of damage at the same time. AND CC people to death.

Yeah, that's why you can't. To permablock there has to be a heavy investment in block cost reduction, if not, you are RIP, and if there is a heavy investment, you lose out a LOT of damage.

Lylith · December 2017

code65536 wrote: »

In the most extreme case, where someone is maximizing block cost reduction, the changes that they stated (moving cost reduction to the start of the equation and reducing base cost by 20%) would mean block cost rising from 88 to 336.

The nerf is smaller (but still substantial) if you're not quite as invested in cost reduction.

The only situation where it's a buff is if you're not using the cost reduction enchants. But... every tank uses them--in all 3 slots, most of the time--so this is a nerf for most everyone.

We'll see when the PTS hits what it looks like.

sooo...players who block reactively will also be penalized?

*** brilliant.

IcyDeadPeople · December 2017

DKsUnite wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

What people have a problem with are builds that are both extremely tanky and dealing tremendous damage. There is room for clever theorycrafting while still increasing the tradeoffs for damage output vs tankiness. It is possible to block quite a lot on magicka DK with 13k stam - perhaps slightly more tradeoff is reasonable although personally I would not be a fan.

The larger problem is lack of balance among medium, light and heavy armor.

@IcyDeadPeople

armour balance doesn't come into play here. I run the 11k stam mDK build (and have been for 4+ months) in light armour. If what you are suggesting is to happen, it would make my build stronger and while i would greatly welcome more damage, I know I shouldn't get it.

With those changes suggested above (7/7 passives, spell damage added to light, phys penetration added to medium, slight reduction dampen magic & hardened ward), your damage would be a bit higher but everybody in 7/7 light would also be somewhat more squishy, closer to level of medium armor due to smaller shields and unfortunately next update they have already announced they will be increasing block cost for everybody. Heavy armor would lack the both penetration and damage passives, resulting in lower tier of damage relative to light and medium.

There would of course be option to use well fitted, sturdy, or defensive sets like fortified brass, pirate skeleton etc, but that is the tradeoff instead of choosing offensive sets

Quantum_V · December 2017

Skoomah wrote: »

It's time to eliminate permablocking capability. You shouldn't be able to permablock AND deal tons of damage at the same time. AND CC people to death.

You can’t though, not literally permablock.

For me permablocking is having a block cost of like 100-200 block cost. You do sacrifice a lot of other attributes to acheive that, like CP slots, glyphs and traits...

At that point you’re most likely irrelevant in pvp.

LordSarevok · December 2017

I remember seeing a large thread at the start of this week asking what we can do to encourage tanks to play with hundreds of responses! I know! Let's make it even harder and less forgiving! The PvP crybaby whiny pants need to get what they want through battle spirit. Simple.

I would love to see vet HM trials, when the tanks have to tactically block 1 shot mechanics with input and server lag. More than likely this will make tanks non existent. And trials into a make or break, on the tank having perfect timing... Lol. I bet that goes well indeed...

ccfeeling · December 2017

Its freaking hard to be a NB tank in BF HM, resource management is poor against dk and Warden unless i have some shards , so in the coming patch, i have to drop block a few sec?in BF?
Please correct me if im wrong.
Actually NB tank cannot be a perma block tank, we cant even do it, leeching has nerfed on the ground, but this is my main char, so i havnt give up but zos please respect NB tank, we may shine in pvp (some builds) but we are just soso in pve, im really getting tired with the nerfing.

zyk · December 2017

Blocking with One Hand and Shield provides the following benefits:
- 70% damage reduction; defensive posture adds 8% reduction, the DK Iron Skin Passive adds 10% reduction)
- prevents secondary negative effects (this is huge)
- an additional 15% reduction from range attacks

This doesn't add up to 88%+ mitigation because of how damage is calculated, but it's not difficult to achieve 80%+ total mitigation. To see the practical impact, please see this thread for damage calcs: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/

Currently, it is easy to lower the cost of block to a trivial amount making blocking incredibly efficient. Choosing 3x block cost reduction is a no-brainer and allows block builds to focus damage stats elsewhere.

A block build can mitigate most damage and bypass most secondary negative effects while continuing the pressure their opponents offensively for absurdly low costs that are easy to recover from a variety of methods including class, racial and armor passives. Against one or two targets, permablocking is np at all.

The super tank builds aren't the biggest practical issue, but they can clearly pose a problem anywhere in Cyrodiil there is an objective flag or in Battlegrounds. However, even outside of these builds, the benefits of block builds are far too great for the cost when using cost reduction glyphs.

code65536 · December 2017

I've said before the past times when PvE block costs were tinkered with that if ZOS intends for tanks to block "tactically" in PvE, they need to first change how the stam regen penalty is calculated and eliminate the resetting of the timer each time you block. As I said earlier in this thread, if you drop block for 1.5s, then "tactically" block a hit, and then drop block for another 1.5s, you get the exact same stam regen penalty as someone who never dropped block.

In other words, if you're in an encounter where there is something that you need to block every couple seconds, then you might as well be permablocking, since you'll get the exact same regen penalty.

The second thing that needs to happen is a complete audit of the various encounters in the game. I do a random normal each day, where I queue as a tank on my DPS with a back-bar taunt. So I have plenty of experience with "tactical" blocking because I can't weave or do proper DPS if I'm permablocking and because my DPS build simply can't afford to block that much.

And while tactical blocking is fine in most situations, there is still a lot of content where you can't use tactical blocking. The Flesh Abomination in ICP, for example--every one of his direct attacks apply a stagger or CC if unblocked. Sure, I can survive it on normal with Harness and real tanks have the resistance to survive it on vet, but it's kinda hard to hold the boss steady when you're being knocked back or thrown onto the ground all the time. If anyone wants to get on their high horse and spout about how PvE tanks need to just learn to be tactical, I challenge them to upload a video of them tanking that boss with tactical blocking where you maintain at least 2 seconds between blocks.

Or the trash pulls in Falkreath. Or the final boss of Bloodroot once they've split. Or the Overfiend in ICP. Or the classic example of axes in AA or Warrior in HRC.

The fact of the matter is, PvE content will never be changed. They never were the last few times ZOS tinkered with block costs. It's easy for non-tanks to get on their soapbox and spout nonsense about "tactical" blocking, because they've never actually experienced the content to realize what a load of excrement that is.

I'm sure I'll adapt to this latest round of nerfs, just as I've adapted to the previous rounds of nerfs. But it's tiresome. And it makes life much harder on the newer tanks without the content experience and without the CP and stats of experienced tanks.

ToRelax · December 2017

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

[...]
The larger problem is lack of balance among medium, light and heavy armor.

Medium armor is a lot more squishy than light or heavy. Instead of buffing medium to provide more protection, I'd suggest light armor should be closer to medium in terms of squishiness, and heavy needs to be on lower damage tier compared to light/med. The large shield abilities (dampen magic and hardened ward) should also be a little smaller, maxing out around 10-12k PVP / 20-24k PVE when you have max bastion, 7/7 light and 50k max magicka.

At the same time add physical penetration passive to medium, spell damage passive to light, adjust armor passives so they scale higher with 7/7 of that armor type, and the end result will put light/med on higher tier of damage compared to heavy, also both a bit squishier.

I'm a bit puzzled about what you are actually asking for here. Light armor magicka builds are generally more survivable than medium armor builds due to a) shields and b) more reliable burst heals. Since you already ask about the straight up shield nerf, what is it then you want in addition to that? Medium armor already provides significantly higher mitigation than light armor, and thanks to medium providing damage while light gives penetration, only medium buffs your healing as well.

Dapper Dinosaur · December 2017

Why do people make topics like this with no link to the changes? I don't see any topics on here about new changes.

Unfadingsilence · December 2017

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

Permablocking is only an issue in CP PvP.

Draw your own conclusions.

It's not.
And the OP is wrong, the fix is for Block Casting, not permablock. Permablock isn't a problem in Cyrodiil anymore.

Finally got the links to work..... maybe but Permablocking in PvP not a big deal?? Someone should give this guy the memo

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Devil Grip/video/40044235

code65536 · December 2017

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Why do people make topics like this with no link to the changes? I don't see any topics on here about new changes.

Check the dev tracker? Check the stickied posts in combat subforum?

lucky_Sage · December 2017

Ashtaris wrote: »

My thoughts? Again, this is another attempt to balance PVP at the great expense of PVE. I just wish ZOS would tie these nerfs to the Battle Spirit passive and leave PVE alone.

honestly the didn't ever want any type of tank to always hold block they wanted it to be more reactive not proactive.
but if they nerf block casting and perma blocking with out buffing certain aspects of other classes it will kill the magdk even more than they are

Conduit0 · December 2017

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

My thoughts? Again, this is another attempt to balance PVP at the great expense of PVE. I just wish ZOS would tie these nerfs to the Battle Spirit passive and leave PVE alone.

honestly the didn't ever want any type of tank to always hold block they wanted it to be more reactive not proactive.
but if they nerf block casting and perma blocking with out buffing certain aspects of other classes it will kill the magdk even more than they are

Well apparently they never bothered to tell their content design teams that since there are numerous bosses where permablocking is the only way to tank them effectively.

Rasimir · December 2017

My thoughts ? There are far more serious problems that need attention. But oh well ...

Ch4mpTW · December 2017

So let me get this straight... ZOS is yet again basically nerfing Dragonknights (although indirectly), and also passively doing damage to PvE from PvP-based complaints? Seems pretty typical of them.

Although, here is what has me confused. People are saying how it is unfair that MagDK’s and DK’s in general are able to do what they do, yet aren’t up in a tizzy about how much cheese Nightblades are, and how they can STILL stack evasion with heavy armor. All the while being able to burst you down incredibly fast, and be able to engage and disengage conflicts at will. Or just flat out annihilate massive groups of people with “BombBlade” builds.

They aren’t up in a tizzy about how StamWardens can spam the combo of: Uppercut, Subterranean Assault, and Dawnbreaker of Smiting to completely obliterate 90% of builds. Or how damn frustrating it is to kill a Warden, because ZOS thought it was intelligent to combine the things which made Templars and old DK’s annoying in a singular class. Plus throw in major and minor protection, when they are already healing crazy and mitigating tons of damage. Because why not?

N’ah. That isn’t a problem. But it’s a problem because DK’s (a class which is on its last legs) are block-casting to remain relevant, have to rely on such tactics with major CC pressure? Screw that. If ZOS ends-up butchering block-casting, and ruining the defensive pivot for DK’s, then it would be the final straw for me. It would be the straw that broke the camel’s back, and cause me to sell my copies of ESO for PS4 and Mac. I’m tired of the obvious favoritism from ZOS regarding classes, and the constant unneeded nerfing to certain classes indirectly. Tired of constantly having to see PvE take things to the chin, because they won’t seperate PvE and PvP balancing. And I’m over it. I’m really over it.

KingYogi415 · December 2017

Sick of half the game playing an Argonian DK.

All y'all no skill meta riders can figure out another way to ruin the game.

KingYogi415 · December 2017

And why even make the thread if your not going to link source material?

KingYogi415 · December 2017

Here, looks like half this thread did not know what you were talking about before commenting.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/386186/monthly-combat-update-december-2017/p1

I see nothing mentioned about block casting. Only block cost.

ChildOfLight · December 2017

Let's get serious. Permablock is an issue MagDks related.

No other class has that duel effectiveness and can spam abilities holding down the right mouse key.
Any permablocking stam character can just be ignored since mostly it ain't going to be a threat.

I'd just like if they could fix MagDks balance issues without breaking the game.

hydrocynus · December 2017

Woeler wrote: »

hydrocynus wrote: »

Thing is that tanks that perma block on pve are doing a disservice to the group. Constant blocking = limited application of crusher + weakened debuffs.

So group friendly tanks aren't perma blocking in PVE so this time the changes intended for PVP won't be affecting PVE that much.

This is false. In terms if resource management there is no difference. Dropping block for a light attack is not going to give you stamina regen. Making any sustain hit to someone permablocking and someone applying crusher more often is exactly the same.

Also, your other arguments in this thread about “blocking less = more crusher” is completely false. There is absolutey no factor at all that would allow someone who blocks less frequenently to apply more crusher. This feels to me more like a “I’m not sure when my crusher runs out so I’ll just light attack all the time”. You can permablock perfectly while maintaining great crusher numbers, at least if you know what you are doing and track your buffs in a decent manner.

Can’t permablock? Your sustain sucks. Can’t keep crusher up? Your timing sucks.

And doing both right isn’t a big deal at all.

Ok fair enough. Looks like I am doing it wrong.

RouDeR · December 2017

where all this "Permablock gets NerF" came from ?
I`ve seen no official Threads ,statetments , videos or so..

Liofa · December 2017

RouDeR wrote: »

where all this "Permablock gets NerF" came from ?
I`ve seen no official Threads ,statetments , videos or so..

@RouDeR Check Dev Tracker