The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die

Ixtyr · December 2017

The last time that VE raided was over a month after we retired and Steve came back to lead a drunk raid on a Friday night. We stomped Dracarys twice in under 10 minutes, after which they left that entire side of the map for the rest of the night. Gotta love that thirst for good competition.

The idea that VE "left because they could no longer compete" is beyond asinine.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by those guilds not being in their hay day performance? Using KHole as the example, they had just flawlessly won the GvG (I believe they had 0 deaths in the 2nd GvG) and they quit shortly thereafter. From my recollection, KHole was at the top of its game, but half the guild moved to BDO and that basically killed off the guild.

We can probably keep the analogies out of this one. MDK is still a sore subject for me. And there are plenty of guilds to use as real examples.

I can give you the same example with Banana Squad, which was one of the best guilds that EU ever had. It was the same story with the guild - most members moved to other games so yes we were struggling to getting a proper group up and perform on the same lvl as we used before simply because of the lack of members. I see a lot nowadays people saying things like "yeh we struggling getting even 12 man online". If you don't see it - it doesn't mean it's not happening

Yeah, so that's not your fault for becoming noncompetitive if most of the guild quit to play something else. It takes time to rebuild after something like that. Give yourselves some credit.

Well the majority of the remaining members created something new and again and are again at the top of their game. I don't think they need to give themselves credit because their results are clear to see.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

Ixtyr wrote: »

The idea that VE "left because they could no longer compete" is beyond asinine.

Why are you trying to start something in this thread completely off topic. You can clearly read what was written and this wasn't it.

Kilandros · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by those guilds not being in their hay day performance? Using KHole as the example, they had just flawlessly won the GvG (I believe they had 0 deaths in the 2nd GvG) and they quit shortly thereafter. From my recollection, KHole was at the top of its game, but half the guild moved to BDO and that basically killed off the guild.

We can probably keep the analogies out of this one. MDK is still a sore subject for me. And there are plenty of guilds to use as real examples.

I can give you the same example with Banana Squad, which was one of the best guilds that EU ever had. It was the same story with the guild - most members moved to other games so yes we were struggling to getting a proper group up and perform on the same lvl as we used before simply because of the lack of members. I see a lot nowadays people saying things like "yeh we struggling getting even 12 man online". If you don't see it - it doesn't mean it's not happening

Yeah, so that's not your fault for becoming noncompetitive if most of the guild quit to play something else. It takes time to rebuild after something like that. Give yourselves some credit.

Well the majority of the remaining members created something new and again and are again at the top of their game. I don't think they need to give themselves credit because their results are clear to see.

It's a figure of speech.

Ixtyr · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

The idea that VE "left because they could no longer compete" is beyond asinine.

Why are you trying to start something in this thread completely off topic. You can clearly read what was written and this wasn't it.

Anyone with a second grade reading comprehension level and any shred of knowledge around the current state of the game and its PvP guild community could see exactly what you were insinuating, Izy. Cut the baity crap.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

Ixtyr wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

The idea that VE "left because they could no longer compete" is beyond asinine.

Why are you trying to start something in this thread completely off topic. You can clearly read what was written and this wasn't it.

Anyone with a second grade reading comprehension level and any shred of knowledge around the current state of the game and its PvP guild community could see exactly what you were insinuating, Izy. Cut the baity crap.

Well resorting to insult when we have both spoken and worked on projects to help to community together is interesting. I stated exactly what I meant as you can read from my posts. The assumption by others based on my words is not my concern you should perhaps take it up with them.

If you consider VE was performing at its zenith at the time you stopped running then fair enough you can consider them to be the exception to my example.

Ixtyr · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

The idea that VE "left because they could no longer compete" is beyond asinine.

Why are you trying to start something in this thread completely off topic. You can clearly read what was written and this wasn't it.

Anyone with a second grade reading comprehension level and any shred of knowledge around the current state of the game and its PvP guild community could see exactly what you were insinuating, Izy. Cut the baity crap.

Well resorting to insult when we have both spoken and worked on projects to help to community together is interesting. I stated exactly what I meant as you can read from my posts. The assumption by others based on my words is not my concern you should perhaps take it up with them.

If you consider VE was performing at its zenith at the time you stopped running then fair enough you can consider them to be the exception to my example.

When did I resort to insult? I simply stated a simple fact about our last official raid and my opinion of the circumstances regarding VE's retirement, as you can read from my posts. Your assumptions in reference to my words are not of my concern. Perhaps you should engage in some introspection and reflect on what was said earlier.

If you don't consider your comments to have been deliberately baity or a low-brow attempt at continuing to levy additional insults at VE or its members more than three months after their retirement, then fair enough, you can consider your comments to be innocent and pure and not at all disparaging towards a dozen or so individuals who have been attempting to contribute to this thread.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

Ixtyr wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

The idea that VE "left because they could no longer compete" is beyond asinine.

Why are you trying to start something in this thread completely off topic. You can clearly read what was written and this wasn't it.

Anyone with a second grade reading comprehension level and any shred of knowledge around the current state of the game and its PvP guild community could see exactly what you were insinuating, Izy. Cut the baity crap.

Well resorting to insult when we have both spoken and worked on projects to help to community together is interesting. I stated exactly what I meant as you can read from my posts. The assumption by others based on my words is not my concern you should perhaps take it up with them.

If you consider VE was performing at its zenith at the time you stopped running then fair enough you can consider them to be the exception to my example.

When did I resort to insult? I simply stated a simple fact about our last official raid and my opinion of the circumstances regarding VE's retirement, as you can read from my posts. Your assumptions in reference to my words are not of my concern. Perhaps you should engage in some introspection and reflect on what was said earlier.

If you don't consider your comments to have been deliberately baity or a low-brow attempt at continuing to levy additional insults at VE or its members more than three months after their retirement, then fair enough, you can consider your comments to be innocent and pure and not at all disparaging towards a dozen or so individuals who have been attempting to contribute to this thread.

I have absolutely no interest in dead guilds so no I don't consider what I was saying in response to yet more "your playstyle is trash" posts as baity. As I've said to you on discord I look forward to fighting your new group. I suggest you move on too.

Joy_Division · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

VE left the game due to leader and core burnout at playing a broken game in a dumb meta with very few fun fights to be found.

The insinuation that we left because we couldn’t compete is ridiculous.

I never mentioned VE or made that insinuation.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Both the guilds you mention were not in comparison to their hay day performance by the time they quit.

No you didn't insinuate anything. You flat out said that both VE and Khole had taken a step and left the game because of it.

If both guilds in your eyes declined, that is symptomatic of a boring meta and buggy game run by developers utterly apathetic to PvP, not what caused them to leave.

Ixtyr · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ixtyr wrote: »

The idea that VE "left because they could no longer compete" is beyond asinine.

Why are you trying to start something in this thread completely off topic. You can clearly read what was written and this wasn't it.

Anyone with a second grade reading comprehension level and any shred of knowledge around the current state of the game and its PvP guild community could see exactly what you were insinuating, Izy. Cut the baity crap.

Well resorting to insult when we have both spoken and worked on projects to help to community together is interesting. I stated exactly what I meant as you can read from my posts. The assumption by others based on my words is not my concern you should perhaps take it up with them.

If you consider VE was performing at its zenith at the time you stopped running then fair enough you can consider them to be the exception to my example.

When did I resort to insult? I simply stated a simple fact about our last official raid and my opinion of the circumstances regarding VE's retirement, as you can read from my posts. Your assumptions in reference to my words are not of my concern. Perhaps you should engage in some introspection and reflect on what was said earlier.

If you don't consider your comments to have been deliberately baity or a low-brow attempt at continuing to levy additional insults at VE or its members more than three months after their retirement, then fair enough, you can consider your comments to be innocent and pure and not at all disparaging towards a dozen or so individuals who have been attempting to contribute to this thread.

As I've said to you on discord I look forward to fighting your new group. I suggest you move on too.

Back at you.

Vilestride · December 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by those guilds not being in their hay day performance? Using KHole as the example, they had just flawlessly won the GvG (I believe they had 0 deaths in the 2nd GvG) and they quit shortly thereafter. From my recollection, KHole was at the top of its game, but half the guild moved to BDO and that basically killed off the guild.

We can probably keep the analogies out of this one. MDK is still a sore subject for me. And there are plenty of guilds to use as real examples.

I can give you the same example with Banana Squad, which was one of the best guilds that EU ever had. It was the same story with the guild - most members moved to other games so yes we were struggling to getting a proper group up and perform on the same lvl as we used before simply because of the lack of members. I see a lot nowadays people saying things like "yeh we struggling getting even 12 man online". If you don't see it - it doesn't mean it's not happening

Yeah, so that's not your fault for becoming noncompetitive if most of the guild quit to play something else. It takes time to rebuild after something like that. Give yourselves some credit.

It's not a matter of fault. Being unable to field a competitive roster for any reason by definition makes your guild uncompetitive.

So yes If a guild died because many of its members left to become dairy farmers or anything other arbitrary reason, then the guild by default died because it became uncompetitive.

Unable to compete.

Defining things properly goes really underrated.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

VE left the game due to leader and core burnout at playing a broken game in a dumb meta with very few fun fights to be found.

The insinuation that we left because we couldn’t compete is ridiculous.

I never mentioned VE or made that insinuation.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Both the guilds you mention were not in comparison to their hay day performance by the time they quit.

No you didn't insinuate anything. You flat out said that both VE and Khole had taken a step and left the game because of it.

If both guilds in your eyes declined, that is symptomatic of a boring meta and buggy game run by developers utterly apathetic to PvP, not what caused them to leave.

I don't know when Khole are meant to have 'Officially quit' seeing as I don't see their members coming to the forums very often but I was fighting some groups of 10~ with tabards not so long ago. The point of my post (if you had read it) was that the game is harder for groups now then it was in the past.

I didn't attribute a reason to why it was harder.

The funny thing is that all the discussion of meta is still referencing only bomblades and destro in group as if that was still the meta. It has actually evolved since previous patches and constantly does with each patch it just takes groups to experiment and present it.

ShadowProc · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I think the clearest example of this is the fact that so many guilds are quitting because they don't perform as well as they used to.

Wait, what?

I think I quite adequately explained it in my post.

After I read your post I thought about it and I couldn't pin down any guilds that I think quit because they couldn't compete anymore though. That just feels like kind of a bold statement to make considering guilds quit for a myriad of reasons. I dunno. I am curious to know which guilds you think quit for that reason though (not bait, genuinely curious).

I can't think of any guild which quits when times are good for them. Perhaps you can name some which you think did.

That's easy. IR did. Crystal got Grand Overlord and if I recall correctly he quit for the most part within 2 weeks. IR was one of the top 3 guilds at the time.

Joy_Division · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

The two most recent guilds that come to mind are KHole and probably VE. KHole quit while it was still arguably the best guild active. And VE didn't seem like they quit because they were struggling to put groups together.

I guess it's also worth pointing out that there's a difference between asking which guilds quit because they couldn't compete and asking which guild quits when times are good for them. Some guilds might last longer due to high performance even if players are experiencing game fatigue, but that doesn't necessarily mean the guild degraded to being noncompetitive by the time those players actually called it quits. I think it's worth honing in on one of those points if we're gonna continue brainstorming here.

I mean... lol? All guilds that I know in this game quit because they struggeled to compete and/or find good activities and entertaiment for their members. I agree with Iz, no one quits because of having a good times.

I don't know anything about guilds on EU, but I couldn't think of any on NA that quit because they simply couldn't compete. You guys can name a couple as examples. I don't pretend to know the why's and how's of every guild that called it quits so I am curious.

Both the guilds you mention were not in comparison to their hay day performance by the time they quit.

Lets take mag dk as an example. At launch Mag DK had some serious bugs and over performance. Because of this many mag dk's were born. When they got brought back into line (despite still being viable) the vast majority quit the game or changed class. You could still reck people on Mag DK as people like Etaniel, Skaffa, Rubixy (and many others who I havent named) showed yet because they weren't performing at their best the others quit.

This is an example of the problem. I see many guilds struggling with their performance, even on streams etc often dieing whilst outnumbering pugs even. Some take it upon themselves to try and improve, others quit or dwindle. I don't think that's too hard to see personally.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

VE left the game due to leader and core burnout at playing a broken game in a dumb meta with very few fun fights to be found.

The insinuation that we left because we couldn’t compete is ridiculous.

I never mentioned VE or made that insinuation.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Both the guilds you mention were not in comparison to their hay day performance by the time they quit.

No you didn't insinuate anything. You flat out said that both VE and Khole had taken a step and left the game because of it.

If both guilds in your eyes declined, that is symptomatic of a boring meta and buggy game run by developers utterly apathetic to PvP, not what caused them to leave.

I don't know when Khole are meant to have 'Officially quit' seeing as I don't see their members coming to the forums very often but I was fighting some groups of 10~ with tabards not so long ago. The point of my post (if you had read it) was that the game is harder for groups now then it was in the past.

I didn't attribute a reason to why it was harder.

The funny thing is that all the discussion of meta is still referencing only bomblades and destro in group as if that was still the meta. It has actually evolved since previous patches and constantly does with each patch it just takes groups to experiment and present it.

I read posts that I reply to.

Because you believe the game is harder, does not mean it makes it so. It's very ambiguous. It can also be argued that a bunch of PugS with Earth Gore, Destro ulti, and VD can make even an average group much more dangerous and thus effective than it was say back in 1.5 or after Imperial city.

Guilds leave for a variety of reasons and I'm not even sure how that's debatable. Also I do not accept what passes for most people as common sense. Just because a game, a meta, or whatever is hard, does not mean people will shy away from it and meekly accept the past of least resistance. People wants to attribute this sort of behavior to everyone, yet many somehow claim that they would not shy away from a challenge or competition, as it they are some special snowflake fundamentally different from all the other sheep, PuGs, and brainless automatons out there. If people are leaving ESO, it's not just because it's too hard. It could be too boring, too buggy, too frustrating, too monotonous, too laggy, too simplistic, too different from what it once was, too anything. Or maybe they just like Destiny 2.

Whatever subtle changes you believe changes the meta from patch to patch, if I were to ask someone who quit the game back in 1.5 to look at organized guild-play, they would instantly recognize the basic mechanics that have always been and still are super effect: stack on crown and overwhelm with mass coordinated PBAoEs. The means and mechanics have changed in the delivery of those PBAoEs, yet it still resembles just a bunch of bots following the same path. It's that same old stack-on-crown pain train that I believe is the source of the many frustrations with "destro-bomb groups." Just because your guild has devised a different way to murder disorganized masses who stand zero shot at beating you without overwhelming numbers, doesn't mean that all of a sudden people are going to be interested in what you feel is a different meta.

Edit: of course you beat other guilds contently and not just murder Pugs. But pain trains in general have in ESO too effective at dealing death and destruction for just following the leader and delivering PBAoEs, that is what I meant by that comment.

Kilandros · December 2017

Vilestride wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by those guilds not being in their hay day performance? Using KHole as the example, they had just flawlessly won the GvG (I believe they had 0 deaths in the 2nd GvG) and they quit shortly thereafter. From my recollection, KHole was at the top of its game, but half the guild moved to BDO and that basically killed off the guild.

We can probably keep the analogies out of this one. MDK is still a sore subject for me. And there are plenty of guilds to use as real examples.

I can give you the same example with Banana Squad, which was one of the best guilds that EU ever had. It was the same story with the guild - most members moved to other games so yes we were struggling to getting a proper group up and perform on the same lvl as we used before simply because of the lack of members. I see a lot nowadays people saying things like "yeh we struggling getting even 12 man online". If you don't see it - it doesn't mean it's not happening

Yeah, so that's not your fault for becoming noncompetitive if most of the guild quit to play something else. It takes time to rebuild after something like that. Give yourselves some credit.

It's not a matter of fault. Being unable to field a competitive roster for any reason by definition makes your guild uncompetitive.

I was simply being nice by stating it didn't sound like Banana Squad quit because it stopped being competitive. It sounds like they stopped being competitive because most of Banana Squad quit. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think that's an important distinction. Have fun and gl.

Kilandros · December 2017

Vilestride wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by those guilds not being in their hay day performance? Using KHole as the example, they had just flawlessly won the GvG (I believe they had 0 deaths in the 2nd GvG) and they quit shortly thereafter. From my recollection, KHole was at the top of its game, but half the guild moved to BDO and that basically killed off the guild.

We can probably keep the analogies out of this one. MDK is still a sore subject for me. And there are plenty of guilds to use as real examples.

I can give you the same example with Banana Squad, which was one of the best guilds that EU ever had. It was the same story with the guild - most members moved to other games so yes we were struggling to getting a proper group up and perform on the same lvl as we used before simply because of the lack of members. I see a lot nowadays people saying things like "yeh we struggling getting even 12 man online". If you don't see it - it doesn't mean it's not happening

Yeah, so that's not your fault for becoming noncompetitive if most of the guild quit to play something else. It takes time to rebuild after something like that. Give yourselves some credit.

It's not a matter of fault. Being unable to field a competitive roster for any reason by definition makes your guild uncompetitive.

So yes If a guild died because many of its members left to become dairy farmers or anything other arbitrary reason, then the guild by default died because it became uncompetitive.

Unable to compete.

Defining things properly goes really underrated.

To be fair, there's a difference between cause and effect: If a guild quits because it's not competitive, then quitting was caused by not being competitive anymore. But if a guild quits to become dairy farmers and consequently becomes noncompetitive, then the loss of competitiveness is an effect but clearly not the cause (the cause is they wanted to farm dairy).

Smoking causes cancer. Getting cancer doesn't mean you were a smoker. Cause and effect.

That's an important distinction. Iza said guilds quit because they weren't competitive. That's a causal statement. Not a statement of subsequent effect. I would agree that guilds who shed a portion of their players risk becoming noncompetitive for awhile. I wouldn't have taken issue with that statement. I took issue with the claim that guilds are quitting because they aren't competitive. I asked to be shown some examples, was denied, don't know what else to say here. Have fun and gl for realzies.

technohic · December 2017

I don't remember a lot of this stuff. I know Dracarys from running into them; and some wannabes that go to Shor because they don't want to face Dracarys and other groups on Vivec. I had a gap from leaving back when I could get in a group with LB and LOM back when Draco and Grunt ran things and all we had to worry about was Havoc and meteor spam. I suppose a lot of this happened when I was gone.

Guess this stuff always existed in some fashion. Its the automatic healing and negate proc sets along with group purges that seems to make them even more annoying at the moment.

Vilestride · December 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by those guilds not being in their hay day performance? Using KHole as the example, they had just flawlessly won the GvG (I believe they had 0 deaths in the 2nd GvG) and they quit shortly thereafter. From my recollection, KHole was at the top of its game, but half the guild moved to BDO and that basically killed off the guild.

We can probably keep the analogies out of this one. MDK is still a sore subject for me. And there are plenty of guilds to use as real examples.

I can give you the same example with Banana Squad, which was one of the best guilds that EU ever had. It was the same story with the guild - most members moved to other games so yes we were struggling to getting a proper group up and perform on the same lvl as we used before simply because of the lack of members. I see a lot nowadays people saying things like "yeh we struggling getting even 12 man online". If you don't see it - it doesn't mean it's not happening

Yeah, so that's not your fault for becoming noncompetitive if most of the guild quit to play something else. It takes time to rebuild after something like that. Give yourselves some credit.

It's not a matter of fault. Being unable to field a competitive roster for any reason by definition makes your guild uncompetitive.

So yes If a guild died because many of its members left to become dairy farmers or anything other arbitrary reason, then the guild by default died because it became uncompetitive.

Unable to compete.

Defining things properly goes really underrated.

To be fair, there's a difference between cause and effect: If a guild quits because it's not competitive, then quitting was caused by not being competitive anymore. But if a guild quits to become dairy farmers and consequently becomes noncompetitive, then the loss of competitiveness is an effect but clearly not the cause (the cause is they wanted to farm dairy).

Smoking causes cancer. Getting cancer doesn't mean you were a smoker. Cause and effect.

That's an important distinction. Iza said guilds quit because they weren't competitive. That's a causal statement. Not a statement of subsequent effect. I would agree that guilds who shed a portion of their players risk becoming noncompetitive for awhile. I wouldn't have taken issue with that statement. I took issue with the claim that guilds are quitting because they aren't competitive. I asked to be shown some examples, was denied, don't know what else to say here. Have fun and gl for realzies.

You're right there is a distinction and that distinction is determined by context. I am just concerned that the context of the original statement from Iz has been assumed rather than provided.

An example is that I didn't once see the context where he says khole quit because they weren't skilled, and yet it has been assumed. He simply said that khole became uncompetitive. I don't think there is anything wrong with this statement unless you consider the vagueness in itself to be a flaw but I'd say that's a subjective conclusion.

Khole became uncompetitive at the peak of their ability but none the less lost more and more members and were no longer able to compete. At least not at the level as when their roster was full.

Anazasi · December 2017

I think it's fair to say that there are many guilds that are created in ESO (look at the dead guild keep tags). The issue really isn't which guilds have disappeared recently or even over time. The question is how do you keep active guilds and players engaged in PVP when ZOS does little to improve or even enhance the environment. Which i think we can all agree on that keeping a guild active with an obviously neglected framework is challenging at best. For the record TKO was one of the guilds that Izy could have been talking about. If anyone had the time to actually search these forums there was a post a while back that listed all the PVP guilds (think it was back in May of this year), there leads, campaigns, and times they ran. To prove a point of dwindling guilds across all the factions someone could easily just copy past and cross out the ones that are gone. No need to make this into anything other than what was said which by the way was another really good observation about group play or the fact that the group pool is getting smaller each month.

gepe87 · December 2017

Talons, Encase, 2 or 3 meteor and negate are nice counters, even by pugs, with proper timings (you see them flee to some res tower).

Anazasi · December 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

The two most recent guilds that come to mind are KHole and probably VE. KHole quit while it was still arguably the best guild active. And VE didn't seem like they quit because they were struggling to put groups together.

I guess it's also worth pointing out that there's a difference between asking which guilds quit because they couldn't compete and asking which guild quits when times are good for them. Some guilds might last longer due to high performance even if players are experiencing game fatigue, but that doesn't necessarily mean the guild degraded to being noncompetitive by the time those players actually called it quits. I think it's worth honing in on one of those points if we're gonna continue brainstorming here.

I mean... lol? All guilds that I know in this game quit because they struggeled to compete and/or find good activities and entertaiment for their members. I agree with Iz, no one quits because of having a good times.

I don't know anything about guilds on EU, but I couldn't think of any on NA that quit because they simply couldn't compete. You guys can name a couple as examples. I don't pretend to know the why's and how's of every guild that called it quits so I am curious.

Both the guilds you mention were not in comparison to their hay day performance by the time they quit.

Lets take mag dk as an example. At launch Mag DK had some serious bugs and over performance. Because of this many mag dk's were born. When they got brought back into line (despite still being viable) the vast majority quit the game or changed class. You could still reck people on Mag DK as people like Etaniel, Skaffa, Rubixy (and many others who I havent named) showed yet because they weren't performing at their best the others quit.

This is an example of the problem. I see many guilds struggling with their performance, even on streams etc often dieing whilst outnumbering pugs even. Some take it upon themselves to try and improve, others quit or dwindle. I don't think that's too hard to see personally.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

VE left the game due to leader and core burnout at playing a broken game in a dumb meta with very few fun fights to be found.

The insinuation that we left because we couldn’t compete is ridiculous.

I never mentioned VE or made that insinuation.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Both the guilds you mention were not in comparison to their hay day performance by the time they quit.

No you didn't insinuate anything. You flat out said that both VE and Khole had taken a step and left the game because of it.

If both guilds in your eyes declined, that is symptomatic of a boring meta and buggy game run by developers utterly apathetic to PvP, not what caused them to leave.

I don't know when Khole are meant to have 'Officially quit' seeing as I don't see their members coming to the forums very often but I was fighting some groups of 10~ with tabards not so long ago. The point of my post (if you had read it) was that the game is harder for groups now then it was in the past.

I didn't attribute a reason to why it was harder.

The funny thing is that all the discussion of meta is still referencing only bomblades and destro in group as if that was still the meta. It has actually evolved since previous patches and constantly does with each patch it just takes groups to experiment and present it.

I read posts that I reply to.

Because you believe the game is harder, does not mean it makes it so. It's very ambiguous. It can also be argued that a bunch of PugS with Earth Gore, Destro ulti, and VD can make even an average group much more dangerous and thus effective than it was say back in 1.5 or after Imperial city.

Guilds leave for a variety of reasons and I'm not even sure how that's debatable. Also I do not accept what passes for most people as common sense. Just because a game, a meta, or whatever is hard, does not mean people will shy away from it and meekly accept the past of least resistance. People wants to attribute this sort of behavior to everyone, yet many somehow claim that they would not shy away from a challenge or competition, as it they are some special snowflake fundamentally different from all the other sheep, PuGs, and brainless automatons out there. If people are leaving ESO, it's not just because it's too hard. It could be too boring, too buggy, too frustrating, too monotonous, too laggy, too simplistic, too different from what it once was, too anything. Or maybe they just like Destiny 2.

Whatever subtle changes you believe changes the meta from patch to patch, if I were to ask someone who quit the game back in 1.5 to look at organized guild-play, they would instantly recognize the basic mechanics that have always been and still are super effect: stack on crown and overwhelm with mass coordinated PBAoEs. The means and mechanics have changed in the delivery of those PBAoEs, yet it still resembles just a bunch of bots following the same path. It's that same old stack-on-crown pain train that I believe is the source of the many frustrations with "destro-bomb groups." Just because your guild has devised a different way to murder disorganized masses who stand zero shot at beating you without overwhelming numbers, doesn't mean that all of a sudden people are going to be interested in what you feel is a different meta.

Edit: of course you beat other guilds contently and not just murder Pugs. But pain trains in general have in ESO too effective at dealing death and destruction for just following the leader and delivering PBAoEs, that is what I meant by that comment.

I think you are right on a lot of points. But consider this: If it were easy everyone would be doing it. Yes I see a lot of groups running all the same abilities and comps and so on and so forth but no one does it like Dracarys. The simple fact it's not easy to do what they do. Even the other EP groups that try to mimic the precision fail at it. Sorry but that is my opinion. I don't think ZOS will change this because those of us that have been around since launch remember what we were told. Organized play will always beat unorganized play. ZOS not only believes this but obviously actively supports this. Its been around since launch and it's not going to end overnight. If it did, you may as well delete cyrodiil and just have battlegrounds as the only source of pvp in the game.

zyk · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I don't know when Khole are meant to have 'Officially quit' seeing as I don't see their members coming to the forums very often but I was fighting some groups of 10~ with tabards not so long ago. The point of my post (if you had read it) was that the game is harder for groups now then it was in the past.

I didn't attribute a reason to why it was harder.

How is it more difficult for groups now?

I think what's hard for guilds right now is getting players to want to PVP. But if you can get a good group comp, groups of all types have had it easier since Earthgore. Even the bad groups are bailed out constantly by it.

Back in 3.0, it was possible for some good individuals to really be a thorn in the side of a group, but that's no longer true.

I think you have mixed up cause and effect when it comes to the departure of guilds too. Their players didn't leave because they weren't playing well. They, perhaps, didn't play well because their players left -- because the game has so many problems and ZOS shows no serious inclination to fix them.

I will also add that Drac relentlessly farming AD tonight was really bad for its morale. You might want to lift your foot off the neck of this dying faction of a dying game. It's not the fault of AD casuals that most of our hardcore players left and tonight was a really miserable experience for them. I mean, I understand you need to find fights, but maybe spread the pain out a bit?

Edit: I will add that I don't fault Drac for their actions. I respect Drac and its leadership. They didn't do anything wrong and it's not their responsibility to solve whatever competitive balance issues may exist. But, the game is in a fragile state and so is AD sometimes. It's not the fault of any of its players, it's just how the culture of the game has evolved.

jssriot · December 2017

zyk wrote: »

I will also add that Drac relentlessly farming AD tonight was really bad for its morale.

Granted I'm taking your "sympathy" for AD with a massive grain of salt, but I was part of one of the AD groups dealing with that tonight. I recognized names in my death recap of EP players who were in groups i ran with when I was levelling up my EP toons' Alliance line, and all I can say, without naming and shaming (despite how tempting it is), that these aren't people who give one *** about the PVP community or anyone but themselves and were a big reason why I now just do AD PVP. They'll keep macroing, exploiting, cheating and all that. One of those players I've been told by different people in both EP and AD that he has been banned more than once and also tries to get other EP players banned who get in his way, How do you deal with people like that? They're trash and they're not going to stop being trash, no matter how nicely you ask. And of course, if they read this, they'll probably dismiss me as a *** player who can't deal with their massive awesomeness (or a-holery, if you wish), but that's just because they simply don't care about the level of frustration this braindead AP farming causes other players or how it's basically ruining Cyrodiil for everyone.

And a side note on that point: I left that fight alive, literally just walked away while fending of a few of those clowns trying their little EP *** hearts out to take me down, when my group give up, because they were only able to kill me when they piled on top of me 12 or more at time inside the keep, but when they got scattered out in the front of the keep, they couldn't even get me below 75% health, and hey I've only been PVPing for like 3 months now and I don't play a super tanky toon and even though I play every day I'm probably just a loathsome "casual" to them, so they're all trash if they couldn't deal me any real damage on a more even battleground IMO. But whatever. I just can't be impressed by this "playstyle" if you can call it that. It seems insanely boring--and certainly is insanely boring to have to fight. It's not fun. And isn't that the point of playing games? To have fun?

And ZOS needs to take this seriously because I have zero desire to waste more of my time with these clowns, but if I can't play PVP without dealing with them every night, I will likely quit PVP and given how burnt out on PVE I am right now, will likely cancel my sub and go play something else. And I am not the only one--others in my group tonight expressed this kind of sentiment. And like me, they anger was mainly at ZOS--this farming playstyle that's all the rage right now, regardless of who's doing it to whom, is their monster, they created it, they need to deal with it.

idk · December 2017

I think this conversation can be permitted to find it's peaceful end. It has become more of bickering back and forth and seems that much no longer has to do with the original topic.

Vilestride · December 2017

jssriot wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I will also add that Drac relentlessly farming AD tonight was really bad for its morale.

Granted I'm taking your "sympathy" for AD with a massive grain of salt, but I was part of one of the AD groups dealing with that tonight. I recognized names in my death recap of EP players who were in groups i ran with when I was levelling up my EP toons' Alliance line, and all I can say, without naming and shaming (despite how tempting it is), that these aren't people who give one *** about the PVP community or anyone but themselves and were a big reason why I now just do AD PVP. They'll keep macroing, exploiting, cheating and all that. One of those players I've been told by different people in both EP and AD that he has been banned more than once and also tries to get other EP players banned who get in his way, How do you deal with people like that? They're trash and they're not going to stop being trash, no matter how nicely you ask. And of course, if they read this, they'll probably dismiss me as a *** player who can't deal with their massive awesomeness (or a-holery, if you wish), but that's just because they simply don't care about the level of frustration this braindead AP farming causes other players or how it's basically ruining Cyrodiil for everyone.

And a side note on that point: I left that fight alive, literally just walked away while fending of a few of those clowns trying their little EP *** hearts out to take me down, when my group give up, because they were only able to kill me when they piled on top of me 12 or more at time inside the keep, but when they got scattered out in the front of the keep, they couldn't even get me below 75% health, and hey I've only been PVPing for like 3 months now and I don't play a super tanky toon and even though I play every day I'm probably just a loathsome "casual" to them, so they're all trash if they couldn't deal me any real damage on a more even battleground IMO. But whatever. I just can't be impressed by this "playstyle" if you can call it that. It seems insanely boring--and certainly is insanely boring to have to fight. It's not fun. And isn't that the point of playing games? To have fun?

And ZOS needs to take this seriously because I have zero desire to waste more of my time with these clowns, but if I can't play PVP without dealing with them every night, I will likely quit PVP and given how burnt out on PVE I am right now, will likely cancel my sub and go play something else. And I am not the only one--others in my group tonight expressed this kind of sentiment. And like me, they anger was mainly at ZOS--this farming playstyle that's all the rage right now, regardless of who's doing it to whom, is their monster, they created it, they need to deal with it.

My deepest sympathies. We didn't know this was causing frustration. Dracarys will hence force cease all guild game-play in open world PvP. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Derra · December 2017

Anazasi wrote: »

I think you are right on a lot of points. But consider this: If it were easy everyone would be doing it.

This is probably the biggest misconception by players doing it.

It is easy. It´s noticeably easier than running solo or in a small group (up to 4 ppl) and making the same ap (because that´s what most ppl do it for imo).
Also at this point everyone IS doing it quite literally - every group seperate from giant faction blobs (those are also a form of doing it imo) is doing it. Some just are better at it than others - just as in dueling/BGs/soloing whatever. But honestly every group you see approaching 6+ players follows the same concept of follow crown aoe ultidump.

What´s not easy about it on a larger scale (16+) is organisation and getting people together in a competetive setup of healers/support/dps + leading the whole thing.
It´s also not easy bc of the time commitment it takes in larger formations (just like pve raiding).

So i´d like to see who is not doing it because on PCEU every group is with different levels of success (but that´s to be expected).

Sharee · December 2017

gepe87 wrote: »

Talons, Encase, 2 or 3 meteor and negate are nice counters, even by pugs, with proper timings (you see them flee to some res tower).

Talons and encase have zero effect on a group with dedicated purge/rapids spammers.

Dasovaruilos · December 2017

So, I've been back to PvP after a long time and I got to say I agree with this. I'm not competitive or anything (old, with 300 ms ping, hehe), but I used to have lots of fun in Cyrodiil and even joined a guild back in the day.

But I've spent several hours there these last couple of weeks and it is really frustrating how almost every single non-zerg group is now a Destro ulti bomb group.

Even when my middle sized (8-12), average players groups met other average sized groups, most "fights" were summarized in the other group retreating, retreating, retreating, BOMBING... retreating, retreating, retreating, BOMBING. I mean, we faced clearly more skilled players in same sized groups and still they mostly didn't fight... Just reatreated and bombed, over and over. And I just say the other group because I refuse to join a bomb group because I find it really boring, personally.

On Xbox NA, during this time, when EP had emp, emp group was a Destro ulti bomb group.

When DC got emp, it was a Destro ulti bomb group.

When I queued in Shor to wait for the queue in Vivec, AD had emp and it was a Destro ulti bomb group.

It has come to a point where there is no other option for 90% of the non zerg groups anymore. 90% of the time those groups will have one or two DK tanks, one or two healers, a few Encase spamming sorcs and as many Nightblades as possible.

After about 20-30 hours of PvP the last few weeks, I'm actually surprised now if I find a non-zerg group and it is NOT a Destro bomb group.

As I said, I'm not competitive or anything, but I used to have fun... With the prevalence of Destro ulti groups outside of zergs, PvP just got a lot more boring. The truth is you either join the zerg to actually do some fighting or all you will do is chase people retreating to build ulti and get bombed. No in-between.

And before anyone dismisses my opinion just because I'm not competitive, remember that you can't fill 4 campaigns with only top notch players. You need average players like me to actually have a full, active PvP server.

At this point I wouldn't be sad if ZOS simply deleted EotF/S from the game... I just wish there were other viable and effective alternatives for non zerg groups to use so we could go back to actually have head on fights outside of zergs. As long as having a Destro bomb group is much more effective than any other alternative, this will be the general state of PvP.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

We had 3 people on destro last night in a 14-15 man group. It's hardly a destro train at that point surely

technohic · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

We had 3 people on destro last night in a 14-15 man group. It's hardly a destro train at that point surely

That’s just the description I think that gets used because that’s what people see. Think the real issue is how earthgore, purges, and rapids with some other proc sets thrown in have really benefited balling up. Destro ults been nerfed so many times; it’s not really that scary one at a time.

My problem with it is not so much when groups want to fight each other and organize. The fact is; they seem to rather go after PUGs even by going to campaigns where opposing ball groups aren’t.