The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die

zyk

Vilestride wrote: »

I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.

The problem begins with bad game design. The critical issue right now, IMO, is the change made to offensive ticks. It's changed AvA gameplay to something akin to farming Alik'r Dolmens. We see this at at objectives of all types. It provides a terrible experience to players whose core interest is PVP and not something more abstract like points. It is the primary motivator of faction stacks and PVE objective grinding. It has made a key feature of AvA, objective conflicts, terrible most of the time. It is toxic to PVP.

Beyond that, competitive parity has always been an issue. This is a big issue at a faction level where players make the choice to play for or switch between successful factions and guilds. Players are acting in self-interest by joining the team that gives them the best chance at success, but that collective behaviour ruins competition and competition is at the heart of PVP. This is something that can be solved through game design, but also players can make other choices -- especially the most experienced and aware players.

Competitive parity is also an issue at a combat level where random players and groups of casual players/pugs have no chance against highly coordinated organized groups. This includes small, medium and large groups. It's very apparent when there is only one or two organized blobs running and they are able to do whatever they please wherever they please. The standard combat scenario in ESO PVP is organized group vs Randoms. This is broken and toxic to growth.

Earthgore has exacerbated the issue as even the most mediocre ball groups that used to wipe to skilled randoms are now highly effective. This set alone makes all of the bad things that come with ball groups worse, but especially lag.

Vilestride

Texas wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.

To play devils advocate now.....with the lack of a healthy population of ball groups or lack of any being online.....reverse your statement.....Because for starters zergs are literally the only thing effective against ball groups.

It's not devils advocate, I am in agreement with you. This adds to the point. How can the problem inherently be ball groups, if the reason they are a problem is that there is a lack of them?

My frustration with this thread is that it has no direction, we are collectively failing to agree on the problem. How can ZoS as the developer be expected to take our feedback and fix a problem that we cannot properly define for them.

I suggest we start by re-titling to something more akin to the issues Zyk just outlined because honestly in the current state of the game saying that destro ult and earthgore are the problem is like being on a derailing train and complaining your seat cushion is a bit uncomfortable.

Aside from game performance, which is no doubt the number 1 thing deterring current and new players from PVPing I'd agree with Zyk, the issues are with core game play rather than specific combat balances.

- There is no objective distinction between the roles of large or small groups.
- There is no competitive parity or incentive for more experienced players to separate from lesser ones. (or at least a system to ensure new players get to learn against other new players)
- There is no reason to have faction loyalty or to be enthusiastic about the campaign score. 2 things that create passion and intensity within the gameplay giving it longevity.

Those are my top 3 (4 including performance) let's get some more going so at least if ZoS did want to listen to us they could more clearly hear what we are saying. In my opinion all these things take precedence over the affect destro ult, earthgore, Zergs and Ball groups have on the game, infact, the more zergs and ball groups and players in general is exactly what we want. Healthy PVP population. Maybe your priorities will be different but I am 100% of the opinion let's fix combat once we make it worth participating in, in the first place.

jimijac0me

I think the faction pride is a big thing that’s changed since early days, guilds were DC or gone back then - from DC prospective of course. Now days pop is low so some guilds hop between factions and so do players. I understand why, but I don’t think it helps a AvAvA dynamic very well.

jimijac0me

Btw, this comes from running an oceanic DC PvP guild, it’s hard to get a group excited when we own all the map, or the flip side where we are pushed to defense all night

Xsorus

Want to combat zergballs?

ZOS should remove the ability to purge siege aliments

Meaning if you get hit by that Snare Catapult..you can't just purge it with RM

same with Meatball

Watch how much fun Zergballs have then.

docmandub16_ESO

Kilandros wrote: »

Could probably just make EoTS blockable and it'd be fine.

Wouldn't help that much I think... since it's mostly magblade builds spamming fear in the meantime.. and with all the extra lag induced by the potatoe balls, by the time you realistically can CC break from fear (which even in perfect conditions is more delayed to break from than anything else), you'll have eaten quite some potatoe ticks and vicious death procs.

docmandub16_ESO

Xsorus wrote: »

Want to combat zergballs?

ZOS should remove the ability to purge siege aliments

Meaning if you get hit by that Snare Catapult..you can't just purge it with RM

same with Meatball

Watch how much fun Zergballs have then.

Are you advocating even MORE SNARES... in ESO?! O.o

Sanct16

Texas wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.

To play devils advocate now.....with the lack of a healthy population of ball groups or lack of any being online.....reverse your statement.....Because for starters zergs are literally the only thing effective against ball groups.

For starters, being organised will always give you and advantage over an unorganised opponent. There will never be a point at which there is any counter to organised groups other than a zerg if there is no other organised group online.

Joy_Division

Vilestride wrote: »

It's not devils advocate, I am in agreement with you. This adds to the point. How can the problem inherently be ball groups, if the reason they are a problem is that there is a lack of them?

My frustration with this thread is that it has no direction, we are collectively failing to agree on the problem. How can ZoS as the developer be expected to take our feedback and fix a problem that we cannot properly define for them.

I suggest we start by re-titling to something more akin to the issues Zyk just outlined because honestly in the current state of the game saying that destro ult and earthgore are the problem is like being on a derailing train and complaining your seat cushion is a bit uncomfortable.

Aside from game performance, which is no doubt the number 1 thing deterring current and new players from PVPing I'd agree with Zyk, the issues are with core game play rather than specific combat balances.

- There is no objective distinction between the roles of large or small groups.
- There is no competitive parity or incentive for more experienced players to separate from lesser ones. (or at least a system to ensure new players get to learn against other new players)
- There is no reason to have faction loyalty or to be enthusiastic about the campaign score. 2 things that create passion and intensity within the gameplay giving it longevity.

Those are my top 3 (4 including performance) let's get some more going so at least if ZoS did want to listen to us they could more clearly hear what we are saying. In my opinion all these things take precedence over the affect destro ult, earthgore, Zergs and Ball groups have on the game, infact, the more zergs and ball groups and players in general is exactly what we want. Healthy PVP population. Maybe your priorities will be different but I am 100% of the opinion let's fix combat once we make it worth participating in, in the first place.

You want ZoS to put resources into reforming Cyrodiil such that the map and campaigns play differently than they have since Launch?

Why would they ever take the opportunity and apply the lessons learned from 3+ years of playing what they developed in Beta in order to present something that matches how ESO has developed since then?

Drummerx04

Texas wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.

To play devils advocate now.....with the lack of a healthy population of ball groups or lack of any being online.....reverse your statement.....Because for starters zergs are literally the only thing effective against ball groups.

This is pretty much the culmination of what a dying Cyrodiil leads too. When a good group is out on a faction, literally the fighting power of the entire faction has effectively doubled or more.

Case in point: My current DC PvP guild was running a group of I think 7-9 players a few nights ago. Kush had taken glade, probably 30+ or so EP running together. They were running over DC for probably 10 minutes before we showed up, lured them into a resource tower and killed all of them. Ultimately this allowed DC to build up and take the keep back.

The really funny thing is that we aren't even role optimized nearly as much as drac, with few purges/rapids, high health builds on just healers, one or two bombers, two healers in earthgore and that's pretty much it. If we can wipe the entire non-trivial defensive force at a keep with 7-9 loosely optimized players, how OP are the fully optimized guild groups that "only" run 16?

And this is where the discussion loops back to Cyrodiil PvP dying. When the presence or lack of presence of a single guild group completely alters the balance of power on the entire map, that both indicates and contributes to the the steady death by 1000 cuts of ESO PvP.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.

To play devils advocate now.....with the lack of a healthy population of ball groups or lack of any being online.....reverse your statement.....Because for starters zergs are literally the only thing effective against ball groups.

This is pretty much the culmination of what a dying Cyrodiil leads too. When a good group is out on a faction, literally the fighting power of the entire faction has effectively doubled or more.

Case in point: My current DC PvP guild was running a group of I think 7-9 players a few nights ago. Kush had taken glade, probably 30+ or so EP running together. They were running over DC for probably 10 minutes before we showed up, lured them into a resource tower and killed all of them. Ultimately this allowed DC to build up and take the keep back.

The really funny thing is that we aren't even role optimized nearly as much as drac, with few purges/rapids, high health builds on just healers, one or two bombers, two healers in earthgore and that's pretty much it. If we can wipe the entire non-trivial defensive force at a keep with 7-9 loosely optimized players, how OP are the fully optimized guild groups that "only" run 16?

And this is where the discussion loops back to Cyrodiil PvP dying. When the presence or lack of presence of a single guild group completely alters the balance of power on the entire map, that both indicates and contributes to the the steady death by 1000 cuts of ESO PvP.

You also have to consider the strength of your opponent. For example from what I have seen Kush is mainly a pug group (fairly uncoordinated). Groups such as these are the easiest to kill because they will stay close to their lead rather than running away as a collection of zerg surfing pugs might making them far easier to bomb and bait.
I think a group of 4-6 can quite adequately take on such groups and win in the majority of situations, quite often its how we run during off raid times.

Highly coordinated groups no matter their comp or size will always do better against such enemies. For example when we are 12-14 we can lock down multiple pugs/pug groups generally even when a couple of other well coordinated start to arrive on top of that depending on then who makes more mistakes and has a better setup (lag plays a small factor too).

This is why encouraging groups not only to form but actually actively coordinate and improve is better for the health of the game. Just forming a group and saying "we're a group now" doesn't actually make much difference (and in some cases makes it easier to be farmed)

Sandman929

If you're in a group and you lose to another group, I think you should be asking yourself why you lost. What did the enemy group do/have that you didn't? How did the enemy group move or work together that resulted in your loss? What could you have done to make a better fight? If players start asking themselves these questions that sounds like the beginning of healthier, more competitive group PvP experience, not the death of Cyrodiil.
I think a lot of the problems with the game are due to the fact that what's effective in open world PvP is at odds with what's popular. If players spent as much time focusing on how to field an effective group as they do trying to be the best solo player or expecting their 1v1 prowess to translate well into a large scale field battle, there would be less frustration and more healthy competition for groups who are already doing this.

Stoney_McGeee

How does it take any less skill to run in a 24 man group and spamming a 2k ability ?
In a 24 man group you gap close into a enemy and they’ll blow up. Takes no skill, you think you kill them but really it was you and your allies, blinded by your own color.

I takes way more skill to find players to coordinate ultimates and good healers that know what are Hots are and can keep up.
Sorry but if it was that simple to do, everyone would be soon it.
Get good, even without destro ulti it would be something else.

Mazbt

Coordinating ultis or abilities like shalks/proxy in your group so that they all fire the same time and hit hordes of players is what's the problem. Nerfing destro isn't going to change that. Also I find that destro is sufficiently nerfed for pvp unless of course you get 5 plus hitting at once. same result as db/shalk bombs. Super dangerous. Learn to spread, learn to not have tunnel vision when chasing. (I am not above this myself). A lot of the usual pugs just never learn or even attempt once to get better.Not one tiny bit.

Stoney_McGeee

You’re trying to tell me coordinating mutliple count downs and multiple synconized skills isn’t a challenge when a horde is on you? You’re delusional, and clearly Zerg surfing or in a Zerg. With all the CCs going off it’s hard to get everyone synconized together, it takes a skilled crown and skilled players to follow along that play style.

Have you seen Spartans? Navy seals?
It’s possible in real life for small groups to take out unorganized groups so why can’t you in game?
You can’t fix stupid, you can guide a horse to the river but you can’t make it drink it.

asneakybanana

Honestly the problem isn't EotS or earthgore or anything of that sort, the problem is the meta, it's stale, we haven't seen the meta change in over a year. Previously a meta was made and zos would change things in order to nerf that meta and it would go away in a patch or two. This was the case basically from the time CP came out all the way until destro ult was released. Went from meteor spam, to barrier/tornado, to vd/negate all in the matter of a couple patches. But ever since destro came out we have seem 3 or 4 ultimates dominating cyrodiil and only two of them they have attempted to change and one was the wrong one. When destro first came out we saw negate destro and rememberance as the main ults. 2 out of those 3 are still the center of the current meta.

Destro ult, which has been nerfed even though it has just made more numbers and large groups even stronger, is still the main damage skill for the simple fact it is reliable, at this point it is not much stronger than bats or sleet but more expensive and without the secondary effects of those 2 Ults. The only upside of EotS compared to those two is the size which imo is the strongest part about it for group play since you can hit so many people, especially in keeps and chokes. I think if they were to buff the damage of EotS back to Morrowind patch or even the original damage and nerfed the range to 8 meters it would greatly reduce the effectiveness of it by organized groups but make it much more viable for solo players or small groups to try and counter those tight knit ball groups since they are almost always within 8m of each other.

Rememberance which was mainly used for the combination of it's cost, how strong the heal is, and the major protection has been nerfed to remove the major protection being applied to group members. This ultimate has partially or totally been replaced in the meta by the use of sleet storm which allows the major protection to move with you as well as does decent unblockable damage and stuns the enemy. The healing from rememberance has been covered and more by the introduction of earthgore which has totally slid the balance in favor of healing from a slight favor before earthgore.

And last but certainly not least is negate, while it's effectiveness has been reduced by earthgore in terms of stopping the enemy from casting you can argue that it is still the strongest ult in the game for group play since if you later negates over an area correct it is nearly uncounterable as well as the fact that negates can be used much more offensively now since earthgore can be used to clear up any unwanted ground ultimates. I don't think negate needs a direct nerf but I would like to see it reworked to how it was pre cp where you were able to cc break from it and continue casting but it absorbed all ground effects during the entire duration or until countered by another negate which would nerf healing a bit because zergs wouldn't be able to spam springs while standing in a negate but they would at least have some.counter with an emergency non ground heal like BoL or combat prayer.

Then we have earthgore, and while not an ultimate it might as well be and I think it deserves it's own section here. It is completely and utterly broken, heals as much, if not more than an ultimate and is available just as often if not more. It removes all ground effects from the area when it procs, including ultimates. This set has tipped the scales so much in favor of healing that you usually need 3+ perfectly timed burst ultimates to get down groups running this while they aren't even paying attention. It has encouraged sloppy play because if you make a mistake and get low the set will proc and instantly heal you to full. I would like the see the heal from this set get changed to a single target burst heal instead of a large aoe burst heal with no aoe cap as well as have the negate portion totally removed or only affect 1 ground effect to still be useful in small scale but not basically carrying large groups.

I also would like to see things like Nova and banner and veil of blades and such buffed to be useful, as it is whether in pve or PvP Nova is hardly used and veil is never used. I think Nova just needs a damage buff or maybe the ability to move it once so you can try to keep it in the enemy group. Veil needs a total rework, it's far too expensive and too small, as a rule of thumb all ground Ults should be at least 8m if not more. If veil's cost was lowered to 125 or do and it got a 100% damage buff and the range increased to 8m I could see it being used again. Also would be interested to see a rework to magma shell since often times in PVP you have so many dots and small things ticking on you that even with capping at 3% of your health you still go down fairly quick. Maybe just leaving corrosive how it is, maxing damage at 3% and then make magma shell give you a 150k damage shield instead of the damage reduction and reducing the cost to 150 or making it so that any attacks you get hit with your a period restore like 2k health or something, idk but as it is both morphs of that ultimate are pretty much useless. Maybe just hit corrosive with a duration increase. Just need to make them viable because even in solo and small groups you never see these ultimates used. And it would be great to see more diversification.

Drummerx04

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.

To play devils advocate now.....with the lack of a healthy population of ball groups or lack of any being online.....reverse your statement.....Because for starters zergs are literally the only thing effective against ball groups.

This is pretty much the culmination of what a dying Cyrodiil leads too. When a good group is out on a faction, literally the fighting power of the entire faction has effectively doubled or more.

Case in point: My current DC PvP guild was running a group of I think 7-9 players a few nights ago. Kush had taken glade, probably 30+ or so EP running together. They were running over DC for probably 10 minutes before we showed up, lured them into a resource tower and killed all of them. Ultimately this allowed DC to build up and take the keep back.

The really funny thing is that we aren't even role optimized nearly as much as drac, with few purges/rapids, high health builds on just healers, one or two bombers, two healers in earthgore and that's pretty much it. If we can wipe the entire non-trivial defensive force at a keep with 7-9 loosely optimized players, how OP are the fully optimized guild groups that "only" run 16?

And this is where the discussion loops back to Cyrodiil PvP dying. When the presence or lack of presence of a single guild group completely alters the balance of power on the entire map, that both indicates and contributes to the the steady death by 1000 cuts of ESO PvP.

You also have to consider the strength of your opponent. For example from what I have seen Kush is mainly a pug group (fairly uncoordinated). Groups such as these are the easiest to kill because they will stay close to their lead rather than running away as a collection of zerg surfing pugs might making them far easier to bomb and bait.
I think a group of 4-6 can quite adequately take on such groups and win in the majority of situations, quite often its how we run during off raid times.

Highly coordinated groups no matter their comp or size will always do better against such enemies. For example when we are 12-14 we can lock down multiple pugs/pug groups generally even when a couple of other well coordinated start to arrive on top of that depending on then who makes more mistakes and has a better setup (lag plays a small factor too).

This is why encouraging groups not only to form but actually actively coordinate and improve is better for the health of the game. Just forming a group and saying "we're a group now" doesn't actually make much difference (and in some cases makes it easier to be farmed)

I did consider the strength of the group. My point stands on its own because the typical PvP group honestly isn't much better than what we blew up.

Cyrodiil doesn't have the population to support the large hardcore organized groups. I'll just keep using Drac as an example because it's the most obvious on PC/NA. When you guys show up full force, I have pretty much two options.

1. Stick around and hope DC can dispense enough damage to wipe you in under 30 minutes while dealing with persistent lag
2. Hope there is another group on that can actually fight you head on (my guild has scheduled run times only 3 nights a week)
3. Leave

^ Those are the options for the average player and even skilled solo players, and none of them are fun. The majority of the time, the server just isn't equipped to fight you with anything close to even numbers.

Autumnhart

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.

To play devils advocate now.....with the lack of a healthy population of ball groups or lack of any being online.....reverse your statement.....Because for starters zergs are literally the only thing effective against ball groups.

This is pretty much the culmination of what a dying Cyrodiil leads too. When a good group is out on a faction, literally the fighting power of the entire faction has effectively doubled or more.

Case in point: My current DC PvP guild was running a group of I think 7-9 players a few nights ago. Kush had taken glade, probably 30+ or so EP running together. They were running over DC for probably 10 minutes before we showed up, lured them into a resource tower and killed all of them. Ultimately this allowed DC to build up and take the keep back.

The really funny thing is that we aren't even role optimized nearly as much as drac, with few purges/rapids, high health builds on just healers, one or two bombers, two healers in earthgore and that's pretty much it. If we can wipe the entire non-trivial defensive force at a keep with 7-9 loosely optimized players, how OP are the fully optimized guild groups that "only" run 16?

And this is where the discussion loops back to Cyrodiil PvP dying. When the presence or lack of presence of a single guild group completely alters the balance of power on the entire map, that both indicates and contributes to the the steady death by 1000 cuts of ESO PvP.

Low population is the base problem. It's easiest to blame other players who do things that annoy, but it's poor game performance and development decisions that withered the population, not zergs or wrecking balls or small groups or solo players or minmaxers or anybody's *** attitude.

Joy_Division

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.

To play devils advocate now.....with the lack of a healthy population of ball groups or lack of any being online.....reverse your statement.....Because for starters zergs are literally the only thing effective against ball groups.

This is pretty much the culmination of what a dying Cyrodiil leads too. When a good group is out on a faction, literally the fighting power of the entire faction has effectively doubled or more.

Case in point: My current DC PvP guild was running a group of I think 7-9 players a few nights ago. Kush had taken glade, probably 30+ or so EP running together. They were running over DC for probably 10 minutes before we showed up, lured them into a resource tower and killed all of them. Ultimately this allowed DC to build up and take the keep back.

The really funny thing is that we aren't even role optimized nearly as much as drac, with few purges/rapids, high health builds on just healers, one or two bombers, two healers in earthgore and that's pretty much it. If we can wipe the entire non-trivial defensive force at a keep with 7-9 loosely optimized players, how OP are the fully optimized guild groups that "only" run 16?

And this is where the discussion loops back to Cyrodiil PvP dying. When the presence or lack of presence of a single guild group completely alters the balance of power on the entire map, that both indicates and contributes to the the steady death by 1000 cuts of ESO PvP.

You also have to consider the strength of your opponent. For example from what I have seen Kush is mainly a pug group (fairly uncoordinated). Groups such as these are the easiest to kill because they will stay close to their lead rather than running away as a collection of zerg surfing pugs might making them far easier to bomb and bait.
I think a group of 4-6 can quite adequately take on such groups and win in the majority of situations, quite often its how we run during off raid times.

Highly coordinated groups no matter their comp or size will always do better against such enemies. For example when we are 12-14 we can lock down multiple pugs/pug groups generally even when a couple of other well coordinated start to arrive on top of that depending on then who makes more mistakes and has a better setup (lag plays a small factor too).

This is why encouraging groups not only to form but actually actively coordinate and improve is better for the health of the game. Just forming a group and saying "we're a group now" doesn't actually make much difference (and in some cases makes it easier to be farmed)

The first step to encouraging groups to form is to make running in them and against them dynamic and interesting. However much you may recognize and appreciate the subtitles of how things change form one patch to the next, it still looks like a bunch bots running around spamming PBAoE death.

HaroniNDeorum

Xsorus wrote: »

Want to combat zergballs?

ZOS should remove the ability to purge siege aliments

Meaning if you get hit by that Snare Catapult..you can't just purge it with RM

same with Meatball

Watch how much fun Zergballs have then.

what you want us to do if 50+ enemies are chasing us? Want us to just stop and die? In your idea, you want Zos to take down the only resources we have to manage incredible outnumbered fights, instead of call Zos to bring game mechanycs to spread people and make a real competition, i bet you that any organized "zeg ball" guild wants to fight 50+ pugs, we want equal numbers fights but to be competitive and challenge, equal fights when we can win or lose. The day Zos bring mechanycs to make a healthy environment and not reward the faction stacking as currently is, the game will be a good experience

Autumnhart

Sandman929 wrote: »

I think a lot of the problems with the game are due to the fact that what's effective in open world PvP is at odds with what's popular. If players spent as much time focusing on how to field an effective group as they do trying to be the best solo player or expecting their 1v1 prowess to translate well into a large scale field battle, there would be less frustration and more healthy competition for groups who are already doing this.

Apparently this needs re-stating every few pages: not all of us want to build for group-reliant play. If your solution to all problems in Cyrodiil is that we get with the program and ditch self-reliance for the glory of the group, your solution will fail.

I think a lot of the problems with the game are due to myopic focus on absolutes and a willingness to build for absolute cancer and call it excellence. But it's human nature. The game can change to make that more difficult, but ultimately people are going to do what we enjoy.

Sharee

HaroniNDeorum wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Want to combat zergballs?

ZOS should remove the ability to purge siege aliments

Meaning if you get hit by that Snare Catapult..you can't just purge it with RM

same with Meatball

Watch how much fun Zergballs have then.

what you want us to do if 50+ enemies are chasing us? Want us to just stop and die?

Other options would be: attack where there are not 50+ enemies chasing you, or get more friendly players to support you. Where is it written that you absolutely need to be able to face 50+ enemies with a small group and *not* die?

Seriously. It seems to me those "organized groups" got so used to being virtually immune to anything other than a similar group that they started believing it is their god-given right.

Sandman929

Autumnhart wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I think a lot of the problems with the game are due to the fact that what's effective in open world PvP is at odds with what's popular. If players spent as much time focusing on how to field an effective group as they do trying to be the best solo player or expecting their 1v1 prowess to translate well into a large scale field battle, there would be less frustration and more healthy competition for groups who are already doing this.

Apparently this needs re-stating every few pages: not all of us want to build for group-reliant play. If your solution to all problems in Cyrodiil is that we get with the program and ditch self-reliance for the glory of the group, your solution will fail.

I think a lot of the problems with the game are due to myopic focus on absolutes and a willingness to build for absolute cancer and call it excellence. But it's human nature. The game can change to make that more difficult, but ultimately people are going to do what we enjoy.

I can appreciate that, but it seems like there's a constant call to be able to win an engagement while being outclassed in open world PvP. It seems to really frustrate people that an organized group with dedicated roles performs better than a slapped together group with less thought given to coordinated movement and group composition. The answer offered is invariably to take away the tools used by the winning group because there is that unwillingness to compete.

Joy_Division

Sharee wrote: »

HaroniNDeorum wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Want to combat zergballs?

ZOS should remove the ability to purge siege aliments

Meaning if you get hit by that Snare Catapult..you can't just purge it with RM

same with Meatball

Watch how much fun Zergballs have then.

what you want us to do if 50+ enemies are chasing us? Want us to just stop and die?

Other options would be: attack where there are not 50+ enemies chasing you, or get more friendly players to support you. Where is it written that you absolutely need to be able to face 50+ enemies with a small group and *not* die?

Seriously. It seems to me those "organized groups" got so used to being virtually immune to anything other than a similar group that they started believing it is their god-given right.

Not that I am one to sympathize with ball groups, but I don't see either of your options here as desirable.

Cyrodiil is full of faction stacks. Asking a group to attack where there isn't 50+ is akin to asking them to log off and play a different game.

And your second suggestion is telling them to meet that enemy faction stack by counterstacking on top of their guild.

There ought to be skills and abilities that encourage group synergy and working together. There's nothing wrong with that. That's totally different than something like AoE caps which is a dumb mechanic that goes beyond class and
alliance abilities that just grants ball-groups advantages fro being ball groups.

I do agree that the idea there is a purge spammer or speed-monkey that gives groups this buffs nearly 100% from just one person is beyond dumb, but there is a difference between improving that mechanic and requiring a group to have more than 1 person on a high regen spec to get that buff and just taking it away.

Autumnhart

Sandman929 wrote: »

Autumnhart wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I think a lot of the problems with the game are due to the fact that what's effective in open world PvP is at odds with what's popular. If players spent as much time focusing on how to field an effective group as they do trying to be the best solo player or expecting their 1v1 prowess to translate well into a large scale field battle, there would be less frustration and more healthy competition for groups who are already doing this.

Apparently this needs re-stating every few pages: not all of us want to build for group-reliant play. If your solution to all problems in Cyrodiil is that we get with the program and ditch self-reliance for the glory of the group, your solution will fail.

I think a lot of the problems with the game are due to myopic focus on absolutes and a willingness to build for absolute cancer and call it excellence. But it's human nature. The game can change to make that more difficult, but ultimately people are going to do what we enjoy.

I can appreciate that, but it seems like there's a constant call to be able to win an engagement while being outclassed in open world PvP. It seems to really frustrate people that an organized group with dedicated roles performs better than a slapped together group with less thought given to coordinated movement and group composition. The answer offered is invariably to take away the tools used by the winning group because there is that unwillingness to compete.

You're not wrong, but "To fight a ball group, be a better ball group," isn't a solution people are going to be happy about. If that was fun, they'd be doing it already. Unfortunately most other ideas I've seen would hit small-scale and solo just as hard or harder. I don't have an answer either.

Like many, I opt out. Cede the objectives, what do I care about who's emperor or who controls the map? IC was always good fun, and there are other games for PVP. But I sympathize with the frustration of those who do care about the campaign and the map and continue to resist becoming the thing they despise in order to oppose it. They shouldn't have to, there's something wrong when it's one way or highway.

Autumnhart

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

HaroniNDeorum wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Want to combat zergballs?

ZOS should remove the ability to purge siege aliments

Meaning if you get hit by that Snare Catapult..you can't just purge it with RM

same with Meatball

Watch how much fun Zergballs have then.

what you want us to do if 50+ enemies are chasing us? Want us to just stop and die?

Other options would be: attack where there are not 50+ enemies chasing you, or get more friendly players to support you. Where is it written that you absolutely need to be able to face 50+ enemies with a small group and *not* die?

Seriously. It seems to me those "organized groups" got so used to being virtually immune to anything other than a similar group that they started believing it is their god-given right.

I do agree that the idea there is a purge spammer or speed-monkey that gives groups this buffs nearly 100% from just one person is beyond dumb, but there is a difference between improving that mechanic and requiring a group to have more than 1 person on a high regen spec to get that buff and just taking it away.

I don't think we want ZOS messing with purge, it's already a poorer version of ritual, and we sure as hell don't want them to further nerf ritual. But rapids as self-cast only might be a good move. It's either that or nerf the functionality, that would be worse for everyone.

Sharee

Joy_Division wrote: »

There ought to be skills and abilities that encourage group synergy and working together. There's nothing wrong with that.

Sure. But my post was a retort to "OMG if they make siege debuffs unpurgable then we will just die!".

Making siege unpurgable does not in any way discourage working together. It just makes it so an organized group actually becomes vulnerable to something else than just another such group.

Xsorus

HaroniNDeorum wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Want to combat zergballs?

ZOS should remove the ability to purge siege aliments

Meaning if you get hit by that Snare Catapult..you can't just purge it with RM

same with Meatball

Watch how much fun Zergballs have then.

what you want us to do if 50+ enemies are chasing us? Want us to just stop and die? In your idea, you want Zos to take down the only resources we have to manage incredible outnumbered fights, instead of call Zos to bring game mechanycs to spread people and make a real competition, i bet you that any organized "zeg ball" guild wants to fight 50+ pugs, we want equal numbers fights but to be competitive and challenge, equal fights when we can win or lose. The day Zos bring mechanycs to make a healthy environment and not reward the faction stacking as currently is, the game will be a good experience

Don’t attack groups head on who have siege up? And spread out?

You know... basic concepts that any pvp group that hasn’t been babied by shoddy game mechanics would of learned in two seconds?

Your post is a prime example of why something like that needs to be in the game... you’re asking how to deal with *** that is just so BASIC in other pvp games...

Vilestride

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

It's not devils advocate, I am in agreement with you. This adds to the point. How can the problem inherently be ball groups, if the reason they are a problem is that there is a lack of them?

My frustration with this thread is that it has no direction, we are collectively failing to agree on the problem. How can ZoS as the developer be expected to take our feedback and fix a problem that we cannot properly define for them.

I suggest we start by re-titling to something more akin to the issues Zyk just outlined because honestly in the current state of the game saying that destro ult and earthgore are the problem is like being on a derailing train and complaining your seat cushion is a bit uncomfortable.

Aside from game performance, which is no doubt the number 1 thing deterring current and new players from PVPing I'd agree with Zyk, the issues are with core game play rather than specific combat balances.

- There is no objective distinction between the roles of large or small groups.
- There is no competitive parity or incentive for more experienced players to separate from lesser ones. (or at least a system to ensure new players get to learn against other new players)
- There is no reason to have faction loyalty or to be enthusiastic about the campaign score. 2 things that create passion and intensity within the gameplay giving it longevity.

Those are my top 3 (4 including performance) let's get some more going so at least if ZoS did want to listen to us they could more clearly hear what we are saying. In my opinion all these things take precedence over the affect destro ult, earthgore, Zergs and Ball groups have on the game, infact, the more zergs and ball groups and players in general is exactly what we want. Healthy PVP population. Maybe your priorities will be different but I am 100% of the opinion let's fix combat once we make it worth participating in, in the first place.

You want ZoS to put resources into reforming Cyrodiil such that the map and campaigns play differently than they have since Launch?

Why would they ever take the opportunity and apply the lessons learned from 3+ years of playing what they developed in Beta in order to present something that matches how ESO has developed since then?

I know right, what a crazy proposition.

Valencer

Xsorus wrote: »

HaroniNDeorum wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Want to combat zergballs?

ZOS should remove the ability to purge siege aliments

Meaning if you get hit by that Snare Catapult..you can't just purge it with RM

same with Meatball

Watch how much fun Zergballs have then.

what you want us to do if 50+ enemies are chasing us? Want us to just stop and die? In your idea, you want Zos to take down the only resources we have to manage incredible outnumbered fights, instead of call Zos to bring game mechanycs to spread people and make a real competition, i bet you that any organized "zeg ball" guild wants to fight 50+ pugs, we want equal numbers fights but to be competitive and challenge, equal fights when we can win or lose. The day Zos bring mechanycs to make a healthy environment and not reward the faction stacking as currently is, the game will be a good experience

Don’t attack groups head on who have siege up? And spread out?

You know... basic concepts that any pvp group that hasn’t been babied by shoddy game mechanics would of learned in two seconds?

Your post is a prime example of why something like that needs to be in the game... you’re asking how to deal with *** that is just so BASIC in other pvp games...

Yes, point and click siege warriors are really struggling in today's Cyrodiil.

Being able to put up a siege weapon in 2 seconds is a balanced mechanic while being able to use a really expensive magicka skill to purge 2 siege effects is a shoddy game mechanic.

And siege is only ever used by poor little outnumbered pugs vs the evil hordes of TS ball groups.