The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die

Xsorus

Anyone with half a brain could take one look at earthgore and realize it’s benefit zergballs the most.

Agrippa_Invisus

Xsorus wrote: »

Anyone with half a brain could take one look at earthgore and realize it’s benefit zergballs the most.

Highlighted is the criteria that ZOS failed to meet that caused it to be implemented in the first place.

usmcjdking

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Anyone with half a brain could take one look at earthgore and realize it’s benefit zergballs the most.

Highlighted is the criteria that ZOS failed to meet that caused it to be implemented in the first place.

rip my nose

death by involuntary nasal beer fountain

Xsorus

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Anyone with half a brain could take one look at earthgore and realize it’s benefit zergballs the most.

Highlighted is the criteria that ZOS failed to meet that caused it to be implemented in the first place.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4371625/#Comment_4371625

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4371641#Comment_4371641

I posted in two different threads it was going to be overpowered for obvious reasons

If I can take one look at something and instantly realize its going to be stupid...someone else on that Team had to of done the same thing.

Also note; I didn't even test the set on PTS....I just read the item tooltip and knew instantly how stupid it would be.

Agrippa_Invisus

Xsorus wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Anyone with half a brain could take one look at earthgore and realize it’s benefit zergballs the most.

Highlighted is the criteria that ZOS failed to meet that caused it to be implemented in the first place.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4371625/#Comment_4371625

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4371641#Comment_4371641

I posted in two different threads it was going to be overpowered for obvious reasons

If I can take one look at something and instantly realize its going to be stupid...someone else on that Team had to of done the same thing.

Also note; I didn't even test the set on PTS....I just read the item tooltip and knew instantly how stupid it would be.

Every guild worth its salt made plans to farm it the moment that it appeared in the patch notes.

Everyone knew it was going to be powerful. I think a lot underestimated the earth shattering effect it would have or that it would remove ultis like Negate and Nova.

Earthgore needs to be destroyed more thoroughly than a Patch 1.2 mDK.

It has no place whatsoever in a competitive PVP environment.

But hey, as long as you pay for a sub or buy the DLC, you too can have the most overpowered Monster set set since Malubeth / Reactive Magplars roamed the wastelands, Mad Max style.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

I'm a bit unsure why this isn't another nerf earthgore post rather than destro if we decided now that it's earthgore which is "bad".

Èarthgore as a set is an interesting one. I personally agree that it is over tuned but considering it from another position it removes the total reliance on sorc in raids and to help pugs take flags etc.

It also allows smaller number to be effective against larger numbers which is nice.

Personally I believe the healing component of earthgore if anything is the "broken" part not the removal of ground abilities

If the heal was less of a burst and more of a a small HoT or perhaps just a solo heal or purge groups bombing wouldn't be mitigated by it but it would equally still assist pugs on objectives etc.

Also I think groups running full earthgore are ineffective because it's a set which is very easily baited.

Anazasi

So a burst 15k heal is bad for PVP keeping in mind it's a small what 6m radius(?) stationary heal over 3 seconds. OMG let me get hasty prayer off my bar before my 12 m radius (probably 20 meter radius but It's 530am and i've not had my first cup of coffee) mobile immediate 18k heal becomes a problem in PVP. Does anyone find this entire conversation just odd.

Seriously though does the set overperform in both healing and negating. Yeah probably a little and perhaps it could be tuned down some on the healing side. Does the negate that comes with the set outperform the sorc ultimate. Maybe but the 3 seconds and small area it covers is probably not really an issue. I guess the real issue here is using it in large numbers. If you have a raid of 24 and 12 players have it on that's probably the issue. As we can all see the common theme of this entire post from page 1 to 10 is about excess. Too many destro's layered in a group. Too many Earth gores layered in a group. Too many of one class layered in a group. Too many of this too many of that and players still want to micro focus on sets and abilities when the real issue are just ignored. So a good tool in the wrong hands gets abused. Maybe it's time to look at the hands and not the tool for once. It's totally within the power of the individual to alter the group choices. Earth Gore and Destro Ulti's are best in slot but not the only things available. If you want change, I've always heard it begins with your choice. The old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink applies to everything these days.

Bottom line: Gluttony..... NA go on a friggin diet.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Anazasi wrote: »

So a burst 15k heal is bad for PVP keeping in mind it's a small what 6m radius(?) stationary heal over 3 seconds. OMG let me get hasty prayer off my bar before my 12 m radius (probably 20 meter radius but It's 530am and i've not had my first cup of coffee) mobile immediate 18k heal becomes a problem in PVP. Does anyone find this entire conversation just odd.

Actually this comparison isn't a good one. Hasty prayer can be interrupted and negated or the cost can be too high if you have been run out of resources there are elements to counter play there.
Earthgore has no counter other than trying to proc it on a fake push so you can fight in its cooldown window.

This is why it does need adjustment. It isn't a numbers issue. In a 16m for example we use maybe 2-4 earthgore. That's far from every member in the raid using it.

Also earthgore heals for about double the amount of hasty prayer/budding seed

Drummerx04

Anazasi wrote: »

So a burst 15k heal is bad for PVP keeping in mind it's a small what 6m radius(?) stationary heal over 3 seconds. OMG let me get hasty prayer off my bar before my 12 m radius (probably 20 meter radius but It's 530am and i've not had my first cup of coffee) mobile immediate 18k heal becomes a problem in PVP. Does anyone find this entire conversation just odd.

Seriously though does the set overperform in both healing and negating. Yeah probably a little and perhaps it could be tuned down some on the healing side. Does the negate that comes with the set outperform the sorc ultimate. Maybe but the 3 seconds and small area it covers is probably not really an issue. I guess the real issue here is using it in large numbers. If you have a raid of 24 and 12 players have it on that's probably the issue. As we can all see the common theme of this entire post from page 1 to 10 is about excess. Too many destro's layered in a group. Too many Earth gores layered in a group. Too many of one class layered in a group. Too many of this too many of that and players still want to micro focus on sets and abilities when the real issue are just ignored. So a good tool in the wrong hands gets abused. Maybe it's time to look at the hands and not the tool for once. It's totally within the power of the individual to alter the group choices. Earth Gore and Destro Ulti's are best in slot but not the only things available. If you want change, I've always heard it begins with your choice. The old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink applies to everything these days.

Bottom line: Gluttony..... NA go on a friggin diet.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head there. A two piece monster set has a massive burst heal, and also happens to remove negates (and every other ground aoe like warden defile for instance). When are negates most effective? A: when a group is stopped/rooted/CC'd in a choke leaving them open for a bomb. If a group gets outplayed by another group, it is quite possible and common that earthgore will straight save them. I lost count how many times I've gotten close to picking off members of a guild raid just to have it proc and save them outright, or negated and encased a group in a choke just to have my negate disappear.

Sure, I could probably time my negates differently to mitigate some of risk and I often do... But think about that for a second. I have to adjust my timing and "skillful play" to account for a 2 piece monster set. What other set in the game do people wear that makes you stop and go, "Oh I should be very careful when I use this ultimate because X armor set will make it useless?"

Anazasi

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

So a burst 15k heal is bad for PVP keeping in mind it's a small what 6m radius(?) stationary heal over 3 seconds. OMG let me get hasty prayer off my bar before my 12 m radius (probably 20 meter radius but It's 530am and i've not had my first cup of coffee) mobile immediate 18k heal becomes a problem in PVP. Does anyone find this entire conversation just odd.

Actually this comparison isn't a good one. Hasty prayer can be interrupted and negated or the cost can be too high if you have been run out of resources there are elements to counter play there.
Earthgore has no counter other than trying to proc it on a fake push so you can fight in its cooldown window.

This is why it does need adjustment. It isn't a numbers issue. In a 16m for example we use maybe 2-4 earthgore. That's far from every member in the raid using it.

Also earthgore heals for about double the amount of hasty prayer/budding seed

I agree it can be interrupted if you get that 1 second to do so. But it's a burst heal it goes off you get healed there is no negating it unless you are negating the caster. Even at launch this ability in its long stumbling form was better than healing springs in certain situations such as negate. It's not a ground effect therefore it was not canceled out by the negate. which meant that if you were out of the negate you could cast and it would heal those in the negate. I use to do this all the time way back when. Same applies today with BoL or HtD if you out of the negate you casting on players in it. If you recall the old absorption field use to do several other mechanics besides what it does now.

earthgore is static 30k heal i believe outside of Cryo 15k inside over 3 seconds that's 5k per tick. better than healing springs yeah on the dot tick and better than vigor yeah. But the burst from others such as BoL or HtD is insta cast and if you are in the right position as a healer you can burst it 3 times and accomplish the same thing as Earthgore. I don't really think talking about this from the healing side is worth the trouble. You can't control it, its a proc and maybe that's the whole issue. We have all said proc sets were bad for the game and perhaps this is just another reason why. But if you want to argue about proc sets than you need to argue that all are bad and should be taken out not just the ones that interfere with your perception of how you think the game should be.

Anazasi

Really lets look at the 10 or 15 seconds of a fight. You are constantly moving. How many times are you actually by choice staying in the blood rain of earth gore. Aside from sieging when you are static by choice on siege do you say to yourself oh wait im taking so much damage ill simply stand here for a few more seconds and either a, die or b, get saved by a random earth gore proc. I was watching closely last night and 9 out of 10 times players just roll out of both friendly and enemy EG procs. It's not the issue everyone is making it out to be.

If you are using it on every member of your raid or even half of your raid well that's a choice and shame on you for making it. If you have it on 3 or 4 healers than you are probably balanced and using a tool as intended. All this hype about this stuff is an argument that can be made about all the proc sets and all the abilities. Grothdar is not excluded from the mobile DPS damage builds why because it procs a lot and brings yet more DPS to the table along with EoTF. Yet you don't see anyone posting about that. What about Velidreath and its proc that the stam builds are using. If that procs with Sub Assault and DB, how deadly is that? Players just need to stop this crazy discussion and decided what and how they are going to play. Toss more homogeneous DPS classes in your group and when you look at the reflection you should see a cancer on all of PVP.

NightbladeMechanics

Anazasi wrote: »

So a burst 15k heal is bad for PVP keeping in mind it's a small what 6m radius(?) stationary heal over 3 seconds. OMG let me get hasty prayer off my bar before my 12 m radius (probably 20 meter radius but It's 530am and i've not had my first cup of coffee) mobile immediate 18k heal becomes a problem in PVP. Does anyone find this entire conversation just odd.

Seriously though does the set overperform in both healing and negating. Yeah probably a little and perhaps it could be tuned down some on the healing side. Does the negate that comes with the set outperform the sorc ultimate. Maybe but the 3 seconds and small area it covers is probably not really an issue. I guess the real issue here is using it in large numbers. If you have a raid of 24 and 12 players have it on that's probably the issue. As we can all see the common theme of this entire post from page 1 to 10 is about excess. Too many destro's layered in a group. Too many Earth gores layered in a group. Too many of one class layered in a group. Too many of this too many of that and players still want to micro focus on sets and abilities when the real issue are just ignored. So a good tool in the wrong hands gets abused. Maybe it's time to look at the hands and not the tool for once. It's totally within the power of the individual to alter the group choices. Earth Gore and Destro Ulti's are best in slot but not the only things available. If you want change, I've always heard it begins with your choice. The old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink applies to everything these days.

Bottom line: Gluttony..... NA go on a friggin diet.

Stacking many of one thing is not the cause of any issue. It’s the effect. Groups stack what’s strongest because it’s strong. Groups which opt to use things which aren’t bis are putting themselves at a deliberate disadvantage. You can’t expect groups to subject themselves to losses to stand up for principle or your own opinion.

Anazasi

I think i've said this before in a post. No one has even bothered to ask or even think about WHY this set was introduced with its current stats. No one has even thought about the reasons for it. Most simply dismiss it as zerg crutch and never even bothered to look deeper at the overall problem. How can players offer good advice to the developers when they don't even understand the real problems the of this game. If you want to solve issues or offer good ideas you first need to understand all the factors that contribute to the problem. I am absolutely certain somewhere in the ZOS headquarters someone looked at this problem and specifically said this was needed to counter this other issue. ZOS has information that we do not and for us to argue the way we have been over something like this is boarderline insanity. I'm not trying to tell anyone you're crazy or your opinions don't matter, but until you offer concrete data to support a change, which everyone seems to be advocating for, this is all purely circumstantial or an academic discussion. The data necessary to make a change is housed at ZOS and we just don't have access to it. Maybe some smart math guy can create it and prove a point but i can't so it falls back to choices made.

technohic

I can’t believe we are even debating whether earth gore is too strong based on comparison of it to a strong heal plus a strong ultimate on something that replaces a couple of players if healing sorcs, along with being better in that it trumps the ultimate head to head with just 2 pieces of armor, free from cost and counters.

It shouldn’t just be nerfed. It should be removed from existence

Publius_Scipio

Um how about you all agree not to use earth gore and destro ult and move forward?

asneakybanana

Anazasi wrote: »

I think i've said this before in a post. No one has even bothered to ask or even think about WHY this set was introduced with its current stats. No one has even thought about the reasons for it. Most simply dismiss it as zerg crutch and never even bothered to look deeper at the overall problem. How can players offer good advice to the developers when they don't even understand the real problems the of this game. If you want to solve issues or offer good ideas you first need to understand all the factors that contribute to the problem. I am absolutely certain somewhere in the ZOS headquarters someone looked at this problem and specifically said this was needed to counter this other issue. ZOS has information that we do not and for us to argue the way we have been over something like this is boarderline insanity. I'm not trying to tell anyone you're crazy or your opinions don't matter, but until you offer concrete data to support a change, which everyone seems to be advocating for, this is all purely circumstantial or an academic discussion. The data necessary to make a change is housed at ZOS and we just don't have access to it. Maybe some smart math guy can create it and prove a point but i can't so it falls back to choices made.

It was introduced to allow the pugs to mindlessly counter organized group ground Ults and increase their survivability. And while this may be true to an extent pugs will never be able to take full advantage of it like an organized group will since they will be kept above 50% health almost always so when it does proc it's almost always needed. Also organized groups run tighter so when it procs there is a higher chance of most their group and especially the ones that need the heal are going to be in range while pugs will be extremely spread out.

On top of these factors that make it better for groups they also implemented it many patches to late since ground based ilts other than negate haven't been widely used since 1.6 and everything that benefits group is pbaoe based such as rememberable, eots and sleet.

I would love to see it as a single target burst hot with a 10-15s cooldown and have the ground effect removal part totally gotten rid of and maybe adding some other benefit such as removing all negative effects on the target when it procs.

Joy_Division

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I'm a bit unsure why this isn't another nerf earthgore post rather than destro if we decided now that it's earthgore which is "bad".

Èarthgore as a set is an interesting one. I personally agree that it is over tuned but considering it from another position it removes the total reliance on sorc in raids and to help pugs take flags etc.

It also allows smaller number to be effective against larger numbers which is nice.

Personally I believe the healing component of earthgore if anything is the "broken" part not the removal of ground abilities

If the heal was less of a burst and more of a a small HoT or perhaps just a solo heal or purge groups bombing wouldn't be mitigated by it but it would equally still assist pugs on objectives etc.

Also I think groups running full earthgore are ineffective because it's a set which is very easily baited.

I cannot agree that a piece of gear that potentially removes multiple 250 ultimates without any input from its wearer every 35 seconds is interesting, let alone desirable.

And that's not even getting to the brainless proccing of a AoE burst heal for anyone in group, again without any input from its wearer.

Removing this set won't stop destro choo-choos, but doing so would instantly improve Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.

Anazasi

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

I think i've said this before in a post. No one has even bothered to ask or even think about WHY this set was introduced with its current stats. No one has even thought about the reasons for it. Most simply dismiss it as zerg crutch and never even bothered to look deeper at the overall problem. How can players offer good advice to the developers when they don't even understand the real problems the of this game. If you want to solve issues or offer good ideas you first need to understand all the factors that contribute to the problem. I am absolutely certain somewhere in the ZOS headquarters someone looked at this problem and specifically said this was needed to counter this other issue. ZOS has information that we do not and for us to argue the way we have been over something like this is boarderline insanity. I'm not trying to tell anyone you're crazy or your opinions don't matter, but until you offer concrete data to support a change, which everyone seems to be advocating for, this is all purely circumstantial or an academic discussion. The data necessary to make a change is housed at ZOS and we just don't have access to it. Maybe some smart math guy can create it and prove a point but i can't so it falls back to choices made.

It was introduced to allow the pugs to mindlessly counter organized group ground Ults and increase their survivability. And while this may be true to an extent pugs will never be able to take full advantage of it like an organized group will since they will be kept above 50% health almost always so when it does proc it's almost always needed. Also organized groups run tighter so when it procs there is a higher chance of most their group and especially the ones that need the heal are going to be in range while pugs will be extremely spread out.

On top of these factors that make it better for groups they also implemented it many patches to late since ground based ilts other than negate haven't been widely used since 1.6 and everything that benefits group is pbaoe based such as rememberable, eots and sleet.

I would love to see it as a single target burst hot with a 10-15s cooldown and have the ground effect removal part totally gotten rid of and maybe adding some other benefit such as removing all negative effects on the target when it procs.

Ok, If this thread is about how the current meta needs to die and the current meta is generally characterized by the use of the Destro EoTS how is it you can qualify this statement? We all know that earth gore does not stop this ultimate? I really wanted to read what you were saying here but that first sentence just said nope not going to even entertain this comment. Nope I value your perspectives and i read the rest of the comment.

By introducing this set did ZOS indirectly address the ever widening gap between skilled players and casual players? Is it possible that some groups are simply "too" good? Is this working in the opposite fashion of what ZOS could have been trying to do? If so, is it not possible that the change that needs to happen here is the more skilled groups should simply not allow that set in their groups? So its takes longer to kill the casual zerg groups. But don't we all simply want longer better fights?

Anazasi

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I'm a bit unsure why this isn't another nerf earthgore post rather than destro if we decided now that it's earthgore which is "bad".

Èarthgore as a set is an interesting one. I personally agree that it is over tuned but considering it from another position it removes the total reliance on sorc in raids and to help pugs take flags etc.

It also allows smaller number to be effective against larger numbers which is nice.

Personally I believe the healing component of earthgore if anything is the "broken" part not the removal of ground abilities

If the heal was less of a burst and more of a a small HoT or perhaps just a solo heal or purge groups bombing wouldn't be mitigated by it but it would equally still assist pugs on objectives etc.

Also I think groups running full earthgore are ineffective because it's a set which is very easily baited.

I cannot agree that a piece of gear that potentially removes multiple 250 ultimates without any input from its wearer every 35 seconds is interesting, let alone desirable.

And that's not even getting to the brainless proccing of a AoE burst heal for anyone in group, again without any input from its wearer.

Removing this set won't stop destro choo-choos, but doing so would instantly improve Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.

I can see your point of view and respect it. What i would like to know is not simply what type of improvement but who it would benefit the most by seeing it removed.

asneakybanana

Anazasi wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

I think i've said this before in a post. No one has even bothered to ask or even think about WHY this set was introduced with its current stats. No one has even thought about the reasons for it. Most simply dismiss it as zerg crutch and never even bothered to look deeper at the overall problem. How can players offer good advice to the developers when they don't even understand the real problems the of this game. If you want to solve issues or offer good ideas you first need to understand all the factors that contribute to the problem. I am absolutely certain somewhere in the ZOS headquarters someone looked at this problem and specifically said this was needed to counter this other issue. ZOS has information that we do not and for us to argue the way we have been over something like this is boarderline insanity. I'm not trying to tell anyone you're crazy or your opinions don't matter, but until you offer concrete data to support a change, which everyone seems to be advocating for, this is all purely circumstantial or an academic discussion. The data necessary to make a change is housed at ZOS and we just don't have access to it. Maybe some smart math guy can create it and prove a point but i can't so it falls back to choices made.

It was introduced to allow the pugs to mindlessly counter organized group ground Ults and increase their survivability. And while this may be true to an extent pugs will never be able to take full advantage of it like an organized group will since they will be kept above 50% health almost always so when it does proc it's almost always needed. Also organized groups run tighter so when it procs there is a higher chance of most their group and especially the ones that need the heal are going to be in range while pugs will be extremely spread out.

On top of these factors that make it better for groups they also implemented it many patches to late since ground based ilts other than negate haven't been widely used since 1.6 and everything that benefits group is pbaoe based such as rememberable, eots and sleet.

I would love to see it as a single target burst hot with a 10-15s cooldown and have the ground effect removal part totally gotten rid of and maybe adding some other benefit such as removing all negative effects on the target when it procs.

Ok, If this thread is about how the current meta needs to die and the current meta is generally characterized by the use of the Destro EoTS how is it you can qualify this statement? We all know that earth gore does not stop this ultimate? I really wanted to read what you were saying here but that first sentence just said nope not going to even entertain this comment. Nope I value your perspectives and i read the rest of the comment.

By introducing this set did ZOS indirectly address the ever widening gap between skilled players and casual players? Is it possible that some groups are simply "too" good? Is this working in the opposite fashion of what ZOS could have been trying to do? If so, is it not possible that the change that needs to happen here is the more skilled groups should simply not allow that set in their groups? So its takes longer to kill the casual zerg groups. But don't we all simply want longer better fights?

The current meta is the fact that organized groups are nearly uncounterable by anything other than an equal or larger size organized group. Notice the thread isn't about the destro ultimate skill but it is about the "trains" that utilize the skill. Destro ult is not the only facet of the current meta, it may be the most obvious but it's the combination of gear(running health minimums as well as certain broken sets, the specialization of players such as speeds and purge, and the skills they use (healing springs and pbaoe damage).

The simple "don't use it" excuse is BS. We already try to make things tougher by running smaller groups which make things fun and makes players optimize their builds as possible but intentionally gimping your build is perhaps more of an insult to the enemy groups than lowering your numbers ever could be. I don't think it would ever result in longer fights, most fights revolve around the engage and use of jltimates and outmaneuvering the enemy. Sure sometimes inside a keep when there is 30+ enemies pushing into you and perma siege on you w/ enemies having free spawn as we've seen from your guild many times it turns into a more continuous fight but in 95% of situations it just results in us wiping a wave, pulling back, wiping another wave with our 2nd set of Ults and rinse and repeat for 15-30 minutes.

Agrippa_Invisus

Vis a vis Earthgore -- It's another set or option that ZOS introduced that was meant to help everyone, but ends up ruthlessly exploited by large groups in a much more efficient and difficult to handle manner. Just as things like Prox Det before it.

At this point, I don't give the benefit of the doubt to ZOS about some underlying plan or idea that they had for this to be balanced. They didn't listen to feedback that was given about this set, they don't consider the wider pvp balance issues on implementing it, and I don't think they're competent enough to have understood what they were doing with this.

All they care about is making the content desirable enough for people to gobble up their DLCs. Any PVPer in a large guild needs either a sub or to purchase that DLC to keep up with the Joneses. Just like they need Morrowind to have access to Wardens.

Pure, unadulterated pay to win on top of the balance problems.

Drummerx04

Anazasi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I'm a bit unsure why this isn't another nerf earthgore post rather than destro if we decided now that it's earthgore which is "bad".

Èarthgore as a set is an interesting one. I personally agree that it is over tuned but considering it from another position it removes the total reliance on sorc in raids and to help pugs take flags etc.

It also allows smaller number to be effective against larger numbers which is nice.

Personally I believe the healing component of earthgore if anything is the "broken" part not the removal of ground abilities

If the heal was less of a burst and more of a a small HoT or perhaps just a solo heal or purge groups bombing wouldn't be mitigated by it but it would equally still assist pugs on objectives etc.

Also I think groups running full earthgore are ineffective because it's a set which is very easily baited.

I cannot agree that a piece of gear that potentially removes multiple 250 ultimates without any input from its wearer every 35 seconds is interesting, let alone desirable.

And that's not even getting to the brainless proccing of a AoE burst heal for anyone in group, again without any input from its wearer.

Removing this set won't stop destro choo-choos, but doing so would instantly improve Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.

I can see your point of view and respect it. What i would like to know is not simply what type of improvement but who it would benefit the most by seeing it removed.

IMO removing earthgore would benefit pugs the most. It's pretty rare that pugs

1. Also have the PvE skills to get the set
2. Know about the set
3. Actually understand what it does
4. Are close enough to actually have the proc help anyone

So it's the organized raids that are generally far tankier in the first place, that now also get proper access and usage out of the set. Removing it would allow pug sorcs to negate destro guild groups without it instantly getting removed automatically.

Guild groups often have an advantage in coordinated builds, coordinated actions, skills like purge and rapids only affect group members so they give huge advantages over scattered pugs. Earthgore really just overperforms for them. You've mentioned before that there are very powerful heals in this game already, but this is added on top of those, and is roughly as powerful as warden trees + negate removal (negate is usually the focus, but aoe defiles, banners, novas, the ground dot from meteor, WoE, and possibly friendly ground heals too (but I'm not 100% sure on that, might just be negative ground effects rather than just all enemy ground effects)

Agrippa_Invisus

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I'm a bit unsure why this isn't another nerf earthgore post rather than destro if we decided now that it's earthgore which is "bad".

Èarthgore as a set is an interesting one. I personally agree that it is over tuned but considering it from another position it removes the total reliance on sorc in raids and to help pugs take flags etc.

It also allows smaller number to be effective against larger numbers which is nice.

Personally I believe the healing component of earthgore if anything is the "broken" part not the removal of ground abilities

If the heal was less of a burst and more of a a small HoT or perhaps just a solo heal or purge groups bombing wouldn't be mitigated by it but it would equally still assist pugs on objectives etc.

Also I think groups running full earthgore are ineffective because it's a set which is very easily baited.

I cannot agree that a piece of gear that potentially removes multiple 250 ultimates without any input from its wearer every 35 seconds is interesting, let alone desirable.

And that's not even getting to the brainless proccing of a AoE burst heal for anyone in group, again without any input from its wearer.

Removing this set won't stop destro choo-choos, but doing so would instantly improve Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.

I can see your point of view and respect it. What i would like to know is not simply what type of improvement but who it would benefit the most by seeing it removed.

IMO removing earthgore would benefit pugs the most. It's pretty rare that pugs

1. Also have the PvE skills to get the set
2. Know about the set
3. Actually understand what it does
4. Are close enough to actually have the proc help anyone

So it's the organized raids that are generally far tankier in the first place, that now also get proper access and usage out of the set. Removing it would allow pug sorcs to negate destro guild groups without it instantly getting removed automatically.

Guild groups often have an advantage in coordinated builds, coordinated actions, skills like purge and rapids only affect group members so they give huge advantages over scattered pugs. Earthgore really just overperforms for them. You've mentioned before that there are very powerful heals in this game already, but this is added on top of those, and is roughly as powerful as warden trees + negate removal.

Well said.

Earthgore takes groups that were already very tanky and very difficult to deal with and puts them over the top, to the point that if they were willing to do so and perfectly BIS their raid (as well as run at a full 24 instead of an artificial 16 man limit) an entire faction's worth of people wouldn't be able to handle them effectively.

Speaking from the perspective of someone that runs in a large guild group that does its best to BIS its members during raids (even having rerolled recently in a support stam sorc to assist in this), I do not want this game to get so easy as to be able to walk through my opponents like a living god. I have no interest in easy moding my way through PVP. I want there to be a challenge.

If there is none, I might as well log off and go play my new copy of Total War Warhammer 2 that I just bought.

Anazasi

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

I think i've said this before in a post. No one has even bothered to ask or even think about WHY this set was introduced with its current stats. No one has even thought about the reasons for it. Most simply dismiss it as zerg crutch and never even bothered to look deeper at the overall problem. How can players offer good advice to the developers when they don't even understand the real problems the of this game. If you want to solve issues or offer good ideas you first need to understand all the factors that contribute to the problem. I am absolutely certain somewhere in the ZOS headquarters someone looked at this problem and specifically said this was needed to counter this other issue. ZOS has information that we do not and for us to argue the way we have been over something like this is boarderline insanity. I'm not trying to tell anyone you're crazy or your opinions don't matter, but until you offer concrete data to support a change, which everyone seems to be advocating for, this is all purely circumstantial or an academic discussion. The data necessary to make a change is housed at ZOS and we just don't have access to it. Maybe some smart math guy can create it and prove a point but i can't so it falls back to choices made.

It was introduced to allow the pugs to mindlessly counter organized group ground Ults and increase their survivability. And while this may be true to an extent pugs will never be able to take full advantage of it like an organized group will since they will be kept above 50% health almost always so when it does proc it's almost always needed. Also organized groups run tighter so when it procs there is a higher chance of most their group and especially the ones that need the heal are going to be in range while pugs will be extremely spread out.

On top of these factors that make it better for groups they also implemented it many patches to late since ground based ilts other than negate haven't been widely used since 1.6 and everything that benefits group is pbaoe based such as rememberable, eots and sleet.

I would love to see it as a single target burst hot with a 10-15s cooldown and have the ground effect removal part totally gotten rid of and maybe adding some other benefit such as removing all negative effects on the target when it procs.

Ok, If this thread is about how the current meta needs to die and the current meta is generally characterized by the use of the Destro EoTS how is it you can qualify this statement? We all know that earth gore does not stop this ultimate? I really wanted to read what you were saying here but that first sentence just said nope not going to even entertain this comment. Nope I value your perspectives and i read the rest of the comment.

By introducing this set did ZOS indirectly address the ever widening gap between skilled players and casual players? Is it possible that some groups are simply "too" good? Is this working in the opposite fashion of what ZOS could have been trying to do? If so, is it not possible that the change that needs to happen here is the more skilled groups should simply not allow that set in their groups? So its takes longer to kill the casual zerg groups. But don't we all simply want longer better fights?

The current meta is the fact that organized groups are nearly uncounterable by anything other than an equal or larger size organized group. Notice the thread isn't about the destro ultimate skill but it is about the "trains" that utilize the skill. Destro ult is not the only facet of the current meta, it may be the most obvious but it's the combination of gear(running health minimums as well as certain broken sets, the specialization of players such as speeds and purge, and the skills they use (healing springs and pbaoe damage).

The simple "don't use it" excuse is BS. We already try to make things tougher by running smaller groups which make things fun and makes players optimize their builds as possible but intentionally gimping your build is perhaps more of an insult to the enemy groups than lowering your numbers ever could be. I don't think it would ever result in longer fights, most fights revolve around the engage and use of jltimates and outmaneuvering the enemy. Sure sometimes inside a keep when there is 30+ enemies pushing into you and perma siege on you w/ enemies having free spawn as we've seen from your guild many times it turns into a more continuous fight but in 95% of situations it just results in us wiping a wave, pulling back, wiping another wave with our 2nd set of Ults and rinse and repeat for 15-30 minutes.

See now you went and made it personal. I have been doing my very best to keep my opinions as objective as possible. So since you opened that wonderful little door. How many underprivileged children do you have working in that camp factory of yours? Don't even try and play the card we are already doing x for the community when in fact all you are doing is playing a cancerous meta that now you want to complain about for it being stale. If you have issues with the mechanics of the game then you need to look at who's actually swinging the hammer because this entire issue is all about stacking broken stuff to so groups can take advantage of excess and then you have the audacity to come onto the forums and cry for nerfs to abilities that actually help the casual player survive your destro bombing nightblade groups. So when you want to sling poo you need to check under your feet first because from where i'm standing it looks like you are knee deep in it. And don't you ever forget that I have never once claimed that my guild was anything like yours nor have I ever claimed to be better than yours. All I have done is play the game with what i had and if what I brought to the table makes everyone have fun than i've done my part for the American Consumerism culture. You need to check yourself every now and then sneaky.

Kartalin

Just hope that the earthgore helm never ends up in the Golden vendor. #PrayForCyrodiil

(Un)Luckily the Golden has been reliably giving us garbage every weekend since her selection was expanded, unless you were one of the five people without skoria.

Agrippa_Invisus

blech, double post.

Agrippa_Invisus

Kartalin wrote: »

Just hope that the earthgore helm never ends up in the Golden vendor. #PrayForCyrodiil

(Un)Luckily the Golden has been reliably giving us garbage every weekend since her selection was expanded, unless you were one of the five people without skoria.

I was able to get that light Skoria shoulder I can never seem to get out of a chest.

But really, the Golden's been pretty crap lately.

Joy_Division

Anazasi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I'm a bit unsure why this isn't another nerf earthgore post rather than destro if we decided now that it's earthgore which is "bad".

Èarthgore as a set is an interesting one. I personally agree that it is over tuned but considering it from another position it removes the total reliance on sorc in raids and to help pugs take flags etc.

It also allows smaller number to be effective against larger numbers which is nice.

Personally I believe the healing component of earthgore if anything is the "broken" part not the removal of ground abilities

If the heal was less of a burst and more of a a small HoT or perhaps just a solo heal or purge groups bombing wouldn't be mitigated by it but it would equally still assist pugs on objectives etc.

Also I think groups running full earthgore are ineffective because it's a set which is very easily baited.

I cannot agree that a piece of gear that potentially removes multiple 250 ultimates without any input from its wearer every 35 seconds is interesting, let alone desirable.

And that's not even getting to the brainless proccing of a AoE burst heal for anyone in group, again without any input from its wearer.

Removing this set won't stop destro choo-choos, but doing so would instantly improve Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds.

I can see your point of view and respect it. What i would like to know is not simply what type of improvement but who it would benefit the most by seeing it removed.

See @Drummerx04 post

emma666

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

So a burst 15k heal is bad for PVP keeping in mind it's a small what 6m radius(?) stationary heal over 3 seconds. OMG let me get hasty prayer off my bar before my 12 m radius (probably 20 meter radius but It's 530am and i've not had my first cup of coffee) mobile immediate 18k heal becomes a problem in PVP. Does anyone find this entire conversation just odd.

Actually this comparison isn't a good one. Hasty prayer can be interrupted and negated or the cost can be too high if you have been run out of resources there are elements to counter play there.
Earthgore has no counter other than trying to proc it on a fake push so you can fight in its cooldown window.

This is why it does need adjustment. It isn't a numbers issue. In a 16m for example we use maybe 2-4 earthgore. That's far from every member in the raid using it.

Also earthgore heals for about double the amount of hasty prayer/budding seed

Just because your group ''only'' runs 2-4 earthgores doesn't mean it's not also a numbers issue... It very much is for small scale PvP. Example scenario; fighting in a 5man against 15-20 people, the bigger group having free damage mitigation for simply having more players (more players meaning more ults and potential monster sets like earthgore) and crutchgores saving them from execute. Play in smaller groups and it definitely is a number issue, just had to point this out.

ishilb14_ESO

Anazasi wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

I think i've said this before in a post. No one has even bothered to ask or even think about WHY this set was introduced with its current stats. No one has even thought about the reasons for it. Most simply dismiss it as zerg crutch and never even bothered to look deeper at the overall problem. How can players offer good advice to the developers when they don't even understand the real problems the of this game. If you want to solve issues or offer good ideas you first need to understand all the factors that contribute to the problem. I am absolutely certain somewhere in the ZOS headquarters someone looked at this problem and specifically said this was needed to counter this other issue. ZOS has information that we do not and for us to argue the way we have been over something like this is boarderline insanity. I'm not trying to tell anyone you're crazy or your opinions don't matter, but until you offer concrete data to support a change, which everyone seems to be advocating for, this is all purely circumstantial or an academic discussion. The data necessary to make a change is housed at ZOS and we just don't have access to it. Maybe some smart math guy can create it and prove a point but i can't so it falls back to choices made.

It was introduced to allow the pugs to mindlessly counter organized group ground Ults and increase their survivability. And while this may be true to an extent pugs will never be able to take full advantage of it like an organized group will since they will be kept above 50% health almost always so when it does proc it's almost always needed. Also organized groups run tighter so when it procs there is a higher chance of most their group and especially the ones that need the heal are going to be in range while pugs will be extremely spread out.

On top of these factors that make it better for groups they also implemented it many patches to late since ground based ilts other than negate haven't been widely used since 1.6 and everything that benefits group is pbaoe based such as rememberable, eots and sleet.

I would love to see it as a single target burst hot with a 10-15s cooldown and have the ground effect removal part totally gotten rid of and maybe adding some other benefit such as removing all negative effects on the target when it procs.

Ok, If this thread is about how the current meta needs to die and the current meta is generally characterized by the use of the Destro EoTS how is it you can qualify this statement? We all know that earth gore does not stop this ultimate? I really wanted to read what you were saying here but that first sentence just said nope not going to even entertain this comment. Nope I value your perspectives and i read the rest of the comment.

By introducing this set did ZOS indirectly address the ever widening gap between skilled players and casual players? Is it possible that some groups are simply "too" good? Is this working in the opposite fashion of what ZOS could have been trying to do? If so, is it not possible that the change that needs to happen here is the more skilled groups should simply not allow that set in their groups? So its takes longer to kill the casual zerg groups. But don't we all simply want longer better fights?

The current meta is the fact that organized groups are nearly uncounterable by anything other than an equal or larger size organized group. Notice the thread isn't about the destro ultimate skill but it is about the "trains" that utilize the skill. Destro ult is not the only facet of the current meta, it may be the most obvious but it's the combination of gear(running health minimums as well as certain broken sets, the specialization of players such as speeds and purge, and the skills they use (healing springs and pbaoe damage).

The simple "don't use it" excuse is BS. We already try to make things tougher by running smaller groups which make things fun and makes players optimize their builds as possible but intentionally gimping your build is perhaps more of an insult to the enemy groups than lowering your numbers ever could be. I don't think it would ever result in longer fights, most fights revolve around the engage and use of jltimates and outmaneuvering the enemy. Sure sometimes inside a keep when there is 30+ enemies pushing into you and perma siege on you w/ enemies having free spawn as we've seen from your guild many times it turns into a more continuous fight but in 95% of situations it just results in us wiping a wave, pulling back, wiping another wave with our 2nd set of Ults and rinse and repeat for 15-30 minutes.

See now you went and made it personal. I have been doing my very best to keep my opinions as objective as possible. So since you opened that wonderful little door. How many underprivileged children do you have working in that camp factory of yours? Don't even try and play the card we are already doing x for the community when in fact all you are doing is playing a cancerous meta that now you want to complain about for it being stale. If you have issues with the mechanics of the game then you need to look at who's actually swinging the hammer because this entire issue is all about stacking broken stuff to so groups can take advantage of excess and then you have the audacity to come onto the forums and cry for nerfs to abilities that actually help the casual player survive your destro bombing nightblade groups. So when you want to sling poo you need to check under your feet first because from where i'm standing it looks like you are knee deep in it. And don't you ever forget that I have never once claimed that my guild was anything like yours nor have I ever claimed to be better than yours. All I have done is play the game with what i had and if what I brought to the table makes everyone have fun than i've done my part for the American Consumerism culture. You need to check yourself every now and then sneaky.

Have you ever considered life without ESO?