The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die

asneakybanana · December 2017

ShadowProc wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Well ESO took all the things that made DAOC great and then decided to copy in a bunch of bad ideas from *** games like GW2.

The players of the game didn’t help either; when you have a lot of people trying to convince everyone that 24 people is one group in pvp you’re not going to have a good pvp game.

I mean, I agree that the execution was poor between balance and straight up server performance. What we got was not what was promised But fundamentally I don't see why we could not have had this. I fail to see why the principal of a 24 man grouping system in huge war like battles is inherently 'bad'.

We don't want DAoC v2. We want an elderscrolls online that works.

Large group battles is what many of us signed up for. I know I did. If I wanted smallscale tactical competitive play I would have just kept playing CS And LoL. As from time to time when I want this I do.

You had 200 man + zergs in DAOC

Know what ya didn’t have?

24 man zerg balls calling them self a group.

Use to... in games if you were in an organized group you generally ran less then the actual zergs and pubs you were fighting against. Then bad games came along with terrible guilds that decided instead of playing better in an organized group they’d just keep stacking numbers.

I'd say IN most games if you're an organized group you play exactly the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format.

But this isn't most games. And I don't imagine we want more of the same.

I don't mean to be argumentative I just want us to not get caught up on the negative and try to be as constructive as we can.

I'm sorry; did you really just try and say you run the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format?

A. You're running a organized zerg group fighting 90% of the time Pugs with less numbers then you who aren't running multiple earthgores/rapids/purges ect ect..

Wow, you did a good job of interpreting that one didn't you mate.

Yeah. I was about to say ... doesn't Drac specialize in embarrassing half a faction (or more) at a time?

To be honest I wasn't talking about ESO at all, let alone referencing my guild. What I actually intended by the statement was to suggest that perhaps any MMO, including DAoC, is not the best example or idol for when talking about competitive PVP. Because more typically any competitive PVP is done in a structured and controlled format. Where two opposing teams compete against one another with equal numbers, nothing more, nothing less. This isn't naturally achievable in an open world environment like ESO. in a truly competitive environment, there wouldn't be pugs, or 40 man stacks.

In that regard, DAoC is hardly the gold standard of competitive gaming...

This was my primary point. My second being that this isn't, and shouldn't be, DAoC. I usually find the best remedy for getting frustrated when my apples don't taste like oranges is to just go eat oranges instead.

DAOC had 8v8.... It was very very competitive... and it was in a world pvp environment. Yes you had Adds...But that was what made it fun a lot of the times.

Basically half the time the terrain is where the two groups met and fight. In fact I had more competitive Fights in DAOC then I've had in every single MMO since then in terms of actual Group vs Group or Guild vs Guild fights.

hell you can go to youtube right now and search for DAOC 8v8, and get scores and scores of videos right now because its because of how that game worked.

You go do that with ESO, and what are you going to put in? ESO XvX? That's ESO's main problem...You can't have competitive PvP in a game where the people running range from 4 to 24 people..

With the amount of times you have referenced DAOC in the last 3 years, why did you leave? Go back if it is so much better. lol

I do agree with you on the fact that taking on 40 pugs now with 16 is not skillful. Earthgore and destro bombs made it easy mode. It use to be real difficult to take on 3 times your number of pugs and win. Now, not so much.

It wasn't ever necessarily difficult to take on 3x your numbers, it always depended on who you were fighting. Pre 1.6 12 man groups could easily hold vs. 60+ with right group comp. Whether it was ground oils or blockade bug or perma banners/negates that healed you and gave full resources or perma invis bats they were all extremely effective and probably more effective than the destro earthgore meta right now. Then came 1.6 and you would go around basically dropping 3 or 4 meteors that hit for 20k+, along w/ well timed prox dets, and 1 shot most pug groups. Also having 30k+ barriers from magicka stacked sorcerer. Can't really speak for how pvp actually felt in group play from IC until Thieves Guild as I pretty much played solo and duo for most of that time, but from what I do remember was it was heavy barrier and steel tornado stam specced groups where it was simply either drop meteor or dawnbreaker and spam PBAOE while you had 8 barriers in rotation (still probably stronger than the current EotS+EG meta in terms of group effectiveness). Then came Thieves Guild patch and that was Mag NB/Mag Sorc meteor or tether bombing enemy groups and using VD, this is probably the only meta that I can think of being harder for groups to fight 3x your numbers. And while EG has made it a little easier it hasn't changed things much since destro came out, I am still running the same gear since 1T patch and feel our group is equally survivable but we also only use 2-4 EG in raid.

ShadowProc · December 2017

asneakybanana wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Well ESO took all the things that made DAOC great and then decided to copy in a bunch of bad ideas from *** games like GW2.

The players of the game didn’t help either; when you have a lot of people trying to convince everyone that 24 people is one group in pvp you’re not going to have a good pvp game.

I mean, I agree that the execution was poor between balance and straight up server performance. What we got was not what was promised But fundamentally I don't see why we could not have had this. I fail to see why the principal of a 24 man grouping system in huge war like battles is inherently 'bad'.

We don't want DAoC v2. We want an elderscrolls online that works.

Large group battles is what many of us signed up for. I know I did. If I wanted smallscale tactical competitive play I would have just kept playing CS And LoL. As from time to time when I want this I do.

You had 200 man + zergs in DAOC

Know what ya didn’t have?

24 man zerg balls calling them self a group.

Use to... in games if you were in an organized group you generally ran less then the actual zergs and pubs you were fighting against. Then bad games came along with terrible guilds that decided instead of playing better in an organized group they’d just keep stacking numbers.

I'd say IN most games if you're an organized group you play exactly the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format.

But this isn't most games. And I don't imagine we want more of the same.

I don't mean to be argumentative I just want us to not get caught up on the negative and try to be as constructive as we can.

I'm sorry; did you really just try and say you run the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format?

A. You're running a organized zerg group fighting 90% of the time Pugs with less numbers then you who aren't running multiple earthgores/rapids/purges ect ect..

Wow, you did a good job of interpreting that one didn't you mate.

Yeah. I was about to say ... doesn't Drac specialize in embarrassing half a faction (or more) at a time?

To be honest I wasn't talking about ESO at all, let alone referencing my guild. What I actually intended by the statement was to suggest that perhaps any MMO, including DAoC, is not the best example or idol for when talking about competitive PVP. Because more typically any competitive PVP is done in a structured and controlled format. Where two opposing teams compete against one another with equal numbers, nothing more, nothing less. This isn't naturally achievable in an open world environment like ESO. in a truly competitive environment, there wouldn't be pugs, or 40 man stacks.

In that regard, DAoC is hardly the gold standard of competitive gaming...

This was my primary point. My second being that this isn't, and shouldn't be, DAoC. I usually find the best remedy for getting frustrated when my apples don't taste like oranges is to just go eat oranges instead.

DAOC had 8v8.... It was very very competitive... and it was in a world pvp environment. Yes you had Adds...But that was what made it fun a lot of the times.

Basically half the time the terrain is where the two groups met and fight. In fact I had more competitive Fights in DAOC then I've had in every single MMO since then in terms of actual Group vs Group or Guild vs Guild fights.

hell you can go to youtube right now and search for DAOC 8v8, and get scores and scores of videos right now because its because of how that game worked.

You go do that with ESO, and what are you going to put in? ESO XvX? That's ESO's main problem...You can't have competitive PvP in a game where the people running range from 4 to 24 people..

With the amount of times you have referenced DAOC in the last 3 years, why did you leave? Go back if it is so much better. lol

I do agree with you on the fact that taking on 40 pugs now with 16 is not skillful. Earthgore and destro bombs made it easy mode. It use to be real difficult to take on 3 times your number of pugs and win. Now, not so much.

It wasn't ever necessarily difficult to take on 3x your numbers, it always depended on who you were fighting. Pre 1.6 12 man groups could easily hold vs. 60+ with right group comp. Whether it was ground oils or blockade bug or perma banners/negates that healed you and gave full resources or perma invis bats they were all extremely effective and probably more effective than the destro earthgore meta right now. Then came 1.6 and you would go around basically dropping 3 or 4 meteors that hit for 20k+, along w/ well timed prox dets, and 1 shot most pug groups. Also having 30k+ barriers from magicka stacked sorcerer. Can't really speak for how pvp actually felt in group play from IC until Thieves Guild as I pretty much played solo and duo for most of that time, but from what I do remember was it was heavy barrier and steel tornado stam specced groups where it was simply either drop meteor or dawnbreaker and spam PBAOE while you had 8 barriers in rotation (still probably stronger than the current EotS+EG meta in terms of group effectiveness). Then came Thieves Guild patch and that was Mag NB/Mag Sorc meteor or tether bombing enemy groups and using VD, this is probably the only meta that I can think of being harder for groups to fight 3x your numbers. And while EG has made it a little easier it hasn't changed things much since destro came out, I am still running the same gear since 1T patch and feel our group is equally survivable but we also only use 2-4 EG in raid.

Fair points. However, it is much more forgiving/easy if you are running around with 30k+ health and still able to drop a destro ulti and do decent damage. That ulti and earthgore make it far easier now imo.

Joy_Division · December 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

8 or 24 it doesn't matter much because ZoS's servers can't handle what they advertised.

When the Lighting patch came out and performance pretty much permanently went to crap, I think it was at this point the bean counters recognized it would cost too much money and resources to keep PvP viable, even though up until that point there were many PvP players. So ESO went to it's current business model of content oriented DLCs and throwing in the occasional OP sets in them to ensure the current playerbase continues to spend money on the game.

ZoS has made PvE way way way way better than it was at Launch. Group trading for dungeons/trials, attaching loot to a specific zone, multi-faction questing, an actual end-game, cleaned up all those quest bugs, portals in dungeons, et al., all of these things have address huge issues at Launch. It just goes to show that Zos is capable of improving their game, but has no chosen to invest much into PvP. Except Battlegrounds. That was our huge carrot and unfortunately, it is not what many people have hoped for and has done nothing to improve Cyordiil.

I'm not going to blame the Lighting patch for todays PvP...Performance why my FPS is amazing...Ping wise I'm actually not running very high in most PvP fights.

HOWEVER

Something has happened to PvP in the past patch or so...and I can't be the only one to notice it....Does it feel like *** just isn't connecting? Like You do attacks and they're not going through?

Its not high ping either...

Zos "improved" performance during their last patch. So they changed something, which has unfortunately meant often times new bugs or unanticipated issues happening.

What it boils down to I think it's fair to say that ZoS has made baby steps to overall game performance getting better the past two years, but the moment anything like what was advertised occurs in Cyrodiil, my ping goes into the red, frames lag, skills become unresponsive, etc. As long as that is the norm for Cyrodiil, the numbers we'd like to see commit to PvPing in ESO are not going to remain consistently where we'd like them, whatever the group size

fastolfv_ESO · December 2017

I think they could balance the way destro works atm, it scales too well on the bottom end so healers tanks can still add enough dps to make it unreasonable to avoid, with even 1s server delay your dying to a raid of destro b4 you see it in range. Make it scale more on SD so glass cannons can still rock those destro ticks at the cost of being squishy vd bait and your tanks will be completely ineffective. Its not the best solution but it does stand out to me as a much easier solution than remove it and have no zerg counters or dull it down from OP to uselessness like batswarm

Savos_Saren · December 2017

Anazasi wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

*Kilandros and his people go to war with Dracarys*
*Bedlam breaks out within the Pact*
*The COVENANT capitalizes on this in Vivec campaign*
*Dominion Knights and other elf tribes send 10,000 to stop the COVENANT at Chalman instead of taking alessia, sejanus, and BRK*

If I had 10,000 elfs, trust me we would all be under your bed. You all need to stop thinking DK is the zerg guild or group on the campaign. We run 16 to 20 a few nights a week. It's not my fault that DC needs to send double our numbers to kill us. If you don't believe me about group size take a look at the video's.....Theres over 100 on the Tube.

It's very possible that you are confusing Dominant Dominion and Dominion Knights. We are not the same guild although since AD likes to share players many of the DK members run with DD when I'm not leading. In fact there are times when I run with DD especially if i am just wanting to relax and play a support role. But we are not the same, we have different lead styles and group requirements. The most significant DD has multiple raid leads. DK has 1 and that is me. I have pepper if you need it?

I heard Dominant Dominion hasn’t been the same since that Savos Saren guy got deployed. Apparently his rugged handsomeness and OP mDK skills are their cornerstone. His uberhot wife, Llika, brings the pain on her Sorc, too.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

ShadowProc wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Well ESO took all the things that made DAOC great and then decided to copy in a bunch of bad ideas from *** games like GW2.

The players of the game didn’t help either; when you have a lot of people trying to convince everyone that 24 people is one group in pvp you’re not going to have a good pvp game.

I mean, I agree that the execution was poor between balance and straight up server performance. What we got was not what was promised But fundamentally I don't see why we could not have had this. I fail to see why the principal of a 24 man grouping system in huge war like battles is inherently 'bad'.

We don't want DAoC v2. We want an elderscrolls online that works.

Large group battles is what many of us signed up for. I know I did. If I wanted smallscale tactical competitive play I would have just kept playing CS And LoL. As from time to time when I want this I do.

You had 200 man + zergs in DAOC

Know what ya didn’t have?

24 man zerg balls calling them self a group.

Use to... in games if you were in an organized group you generally ran less then the actual zergs and pubs you were fighting against. Then bad games came along with terrible guilds that decided instead of playing better in an organized group they’d just keep stacking numbers.

I'd say IN most games if you're an organized group you play exactly the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format.

But this isn't most games. And I don't imagine we want more of the same.

I don't mean to be argumentative I just want us to not get caught up on the negative and try to be as constructive as we can.

I'm sorry; did you really just try and say you run the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format?

A. You're running a organized zerg group fighting 90% of the time Pugs with less numbers then you who aren't running multiple earthgores/rapids/purges ect ect..

Wow, you did a good job of interpreting that one didn't you mate.

Yeah. I was about to say ... doesn't Drac specialize in embarrassing half a faction (or more) at a time?

To be honest I wasn't talking about ESO at all, let alone referencing my guild. What I actually intended by the statement was to suggest that perhaps any MMO, including DAoC, is not the best example or idol for when talking about competitive PVP. Because more typically any competitive PVP is done in a structured and controlled format. Where two opposing teams compete against one another with equal numbers, nothing more, nothing less. This isn't naturally achievable in an open world environment like ESO. in a truly competitive environment, there wouldn't be pugs, or 40 man stacks.

In that regard, DAoC is hardly the gold standard of competitive gaming...

This was my primary point. My second being that this isn't, and shouldn't be, DAoC. I usually find the best remedy for getting frustrated when my apples don't taste like oranges is to just go eat oranges instead.

DAOC had 8v8.... It was very very competitive... and it was in a world pvp environment. Yes you had Adds...But that was what made it fun a lot of the times.

Basically half the time the terrain is where the two groups met and fight. In fact I had more competitive Fights in DAOC then I've had in every single MMO since then in terms of actual Group vs Group or Guild vs Guild fights.

hell you can go to youtube right now and search for DAOC 8v8, and get scores and scores of videos right now because its because of how that game worked.

You go do that with ESO, and what are you going to put in? ESO XvX? That's ESO's main problem...You can't have competitive PvP in a game where the people running range from 4 to 24 people..

With the amount of times you have referenced DAOC in the last 3 years, why did you leave? Go back if it is so much better. lol

I do agree with you on the fact that taking on 40 pugs now with 16 is not skillful. Earthgore and destro bombs made it easy mode. It use to be real difficult to take on 3 times your number of pugs and win. Now, not so much.

It wasn't ever necessarily difficult to take on 3x your numbers, it always depended on who you were fighting. Pre 1.6 12 man groups could easily hold vs. 60+ with right group comp. Whether it was ground oils or blockade bug or perma banners/negates that healed you and gave full resources or perma invis bats they were all extremely effective and probably more effective than the destro earthgore meta right now. Then came 1.6 and you would go around basically dropping 3 or 4 meteors that hit for 20k+, along w/ well timed prox dets, and 1 shot most pug groups. Also having 30k+ barriers from magicka stacked sorcerer. Can't really speak for how pvp actually felt in group play from IC until Thieves Guild as I pretty much played solo and duo for most of that time, but from what I do remember was it was heavy barrier and steel tornado stam specced groups where it was simply either drop meteor or dawnbreaker and spam PBAOE while you had 8 barriers in rotation (still probably stronger than the current EotS+EG meta in terms of group effectiveness). Then came Thieves Guild patch and that was Mag NB/Mag Sorc meteor or tether bombing enemy groups and using VD, this is probably the only meta that I can think of being harder for groups to fight 3x your numbers. And while EG has made it a little easier it hasn't changed things much since destro came out, I am still running the same gear since 1T patch and feel our group is equally survivable but we also only use 2-4 EG in raid.

Fair points. However, it is much more forgiving/easy if you are running around with 30k+ health and still able to drop a destro ulti and do decent damage. That ulti and earthgore make it far easier now imo.

I have 29.9k health I guess that makes it more of a challenge

anything else to put on an easy mode checklist? Maybe using potions and food? Perhaps equipping any gear or at the least making it legendary?

I would love to see videos of you playing in groups (in eso to clarify) to show us how easy fighting 4x your group size is inside a keep and to take that objective.

ShadowProc · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Well ESO took all the things that made DAOC great and then decided to copy in a bunch of bad ideas from *** games like GW2.

The players of the game didn’t help either; when you have a lot of people trying to convince everyone that 24 people is one group in pvp you’re not going to have a good pvp game.

I mean, I agree that the execution was poor between balance and straight up server performance. What we got was not what was promised But fundamentally I don't see why we could not have had this. I fail to see why the principal of a 24 man grouping system in huge war like battles is inherently 'bad'.

We don't want DAoC v2. We want an elderscrolls online that works.

Large group battles is what many of us signed up for. I know I did. If I wanted smallscale tactical competitive play I would have just kept playing CS And LoL. As from time to time when I want this I do.

You had 200 man + zergs in DAOC

Know what ya didn’t have?

24 man zerg balls calling them self a group.

Use to... in games if you were in an organized group you generally ran less then the actual zergs and pubs you were fighting against. Then bad games came along with terrible guilds that decided instead of playing better in an organized group they’d just keep stacking numbers.

I'd say IN most games if you're an organized group you play exactly the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format.

But this isn't most games. And I don't imagine we want more of the same.

I don't mean to be argumentative I just want us to not get caught up on the negative and try to be as constructive as we can.

I'm sorry; did you really just try and say you run the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format?

A. You're running a organized zerg group fighting 90% of the time Pugs with less numbers then you who aren't running multiple earthgores/rapids/purges ect ect..

Wow, you did a good job of interpreting that one didn't you mate.

Yeah. I was about to say ... doesn't Drac specialize in embarrassing half a faction (or more) at a time?

To be honest I wasn't talking about ESO at all, let alone referencing my guild. What I actually intended by the statement was to suggest that perhaps any MMO, including DAoC, is not the best example or idol for when talking about competitive PVP. Because more typically any competitive PVP is done in a structured and controlled format. Where two opposing teams compete against one another with equal numbers, nothing more, nothing less. This isn't naturally achievable in an open world environment like ESO. in a truly competitive environment, there wouldn't be pugs, or 40 man stacks.

In that regard, DAoC is hardly the gold standard of competitive gaming...

This was my primary point. My second being that this isn't, and shouldn't be, DAoC. I usually find the best remedy for getting frustrated when my apples don't taste like oranges is to just go eat oranges instead.

DAOC had 8v8.... It was very very competitive... and it was in a world pvp environment. Yes you had Adds...But that was what made it fun a lot of the times.

Basically half the time the terrain is where the two groups met and fight. In fact I had more competitive Fights in DAOC then I've had in every single MMO since then in terms of actual Group vs Group or Guild vs Guild fights.

hell you can go to youtube right now and search for DAOC 8v8, and get scores and scores of videos right now because its because of how that game worked.

You go do that with ESO, and what are you going to put in? ESO XvX? That's ESO's main problem...You can't have competitive PvP in a game where the people running range from 4 to 24 people..

With the amount of times you have referenced DAOC in the last 3 years, why did you leave? Go back if it is so much better. lol

I do agree with you on the fact that taking on 40 pugs now with 16 is not skillful. Earthgore and destro bombs made it easy mode. It use to be real difficult to take on 3 times your number of pugs and win. Now, not so much.

It wasn't ever necessarily difficult to take on 3x your numbers, it always depended on who you were fighting. Pre 1.6 12 man groups could easily hold vs. 60+ with right group comp. Whether it was ground oils or blockade bug or perma banners/negates that healed you and gave full resources or perma invis bats they were all extremely effective and probably more effective than the destro earthgore meta right now. Then came 1.6 and you would go around basically dropping 3 or 4 meteors that hit for 20k+, along w/ well timed prox dets, and 1 shot most pug groups. Also having 30k+ barriers from magicka stacked sorcerer. Can't really speak for how pvp actually felt in group play from IC until Thieves Guild as I pretty much played solo and duo for most of that time, but from what I do remember was it was heavy barrier and steel tornado stam specced groups where it was simply either drop meteor or dawnbreaker and spam PBAOE while you had 8 barriers in rotation (still probably stronger than the current EotS+EG meta in terms of group effectiveness). Then came Thieves Guild patch and that was Mag NB/Mag Sorc meteor or tether bombing enemy groups and using VD, this is probably the only meta that I can think of being harder for groups to fight 3x your numbers. And while EG has made it a little easier it hasn't changed things much since destro came out, I am still running the same gear since 1T patch and feel our group is equally survivable but we also only use 2-4 EG in raid.

Fair points. However, it is much more forgiving/easy if you are running around with 30k+ health and still able to drop a destro ulti and do decent damage. That ulti and earthgore make it far easier now imo.

I have 29.9k health I guess that makes it more of a challenge anything else to put on an easy mode checklist? Maybe using potions and food? Perhaps equipping any gear or at the least making it legendary?

I would love to see videos of you playing in groups (in eso to clarify) to show us how easy fighting 4x your group size is inside a keep and to take that objective.

Would love to but I quit ESO 2 months ago. Game is boring and dead. I am stuck in the middle of the Atlantic on a carrier killing time so I will read anything to pass the time.

Your saying Fantasia never took on 4 times our number? Or IR? lol That's one thing I loved about Crystal. He told us not to post about our achievements. We knew how good we were. There was no need to post daily videos about destroying pug zergs.

There were actually tons of great guilds back then. Not like the current extremely poor state of pvp, or extremely low population of total players or quality players.

zyk · December 2017

In hindsight, I guess a Saturday evening was a bad time to return after taking a couple of weeks off, but wow. Open world AvA is soooo bad right now.

The one bright moment was watching the Drac/LoM GvG tonight. Those were pretty decent fights.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler We *really* need a state of the union address from a ZOS lead. Most PVP guilds I am aware of are struggling to form groups because players are dropping like flies. ZOS *really* needs to give us a tangible reason to hang on.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Well ESO took all the things that made DAOC great and then decided to copy in a bunch of bad ideas from *** games like GW2.

The players of the game didn’t help either; when you have a lot of people trying to convince everyone that 24 people is one group in pvp you’re not going to have a good pvp game.

I mean, I agree that the execution was poor between balance and straight up server performance. What we got was not what was promised But fundamentally I don't see why we could not have had this. I fail to see why the principal of a 24 man grouping system in huge war like battles is inherently 'bad'.

We don't want DAoC v2. We want an elderscrolls online that works.

Large group battles is what many of us signed up for. I know I did. If I wanted smallscale tactical competitive play I would have just kept playing CS And LoL. As from time to time when I want this I do.

You had 200 man + zergs in DAOC

Know what ya didn’t have?

24 man zerg balls calling them self a group.

Use to... in games if you were in an organized group you generally ran less then the actual zergs and pubs you were fighting against. Then bad games came along with terrible guilds that decided instead of playing better in an organized group they’d just keep stacking numbers.

I'd say IN most games if you're an organized group you play exactly the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format.

But this isn't most games. And I don't imagine we want more of the same.

I don't mean to be argumentative I just want us to not get caught up on the negative and try to be as constructive as we can.

I'm sorry; did you really just try and say you run the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format?

A. You're running a organized zerg group fighting 90% of the time Pugs with less numbers then you who aren't running multiple earthgores/rapids/purges ect ect..

Wow, you did a good job of interpreting that one didn't you mate.

Yeah. I was about to say ... doesn't Drac specialize in embarrassing half a faction (or more) at a time?

To be honest I wasn't talking about ESO at all, let alone referencing my guild. What I actually intended by the statement was to suggest that perhaps any MMO, including DAoC, is not the best example or idol for when talking about competitive PVP. Because more typically any competitive PVP is done in a structured and controlled format. Where two opposing teams compete against one another with equal numbers, nothing more, nothing less. This isn't naturally achievable in an open world environment like ESO. in a truly competitive environment, there wouldn't be pugs, or 40 man stacks.

In that regard, DAoC is hardly the gold standard of competitive gaming...

This was my primary point. My second being that this isn't, and shouldn't be, DAoC. I usually find the best remedy for getting frustrated when my apples don't taste like oranges is to just go eat oranges instead.

DAOC had 8v8.... It was very very competitive... and it was in a world pvp environment. Yes you had Adds...But that was what made it fun a lot of the times.

Basically half the time the terrain is where the two groups met and fight. In fact I had more competitive Fights in DAOC then I've had in every single MMO since then in terms of actual Group vs Group or Guild vs Guild fights.

hell you can go to youtube right now and search for DAOC 8v8, and get scores and scores of videos right now because its because of how that game worked.

You go do that with ESO, and what are you going to put in? ESO XvX? That's ESO's main problem...You can't have competitive PvP in a game where the people running range from 4 to 24 people..

With the amount of times you have referenced DAOC in the last 3 years, why did you leave? Go back if it is so much better. lol

I do agree with you on the fact that taking on 40 pugs now with 16 is not skillful. Earthgore and destro bombs made it easy mode. It use to be real difficult to take on 3 times your number of pugs and win. Now, not so much.

It wasn't ever necessarily difficult to take on 3x your numbers, it always depended on who you were fighting. Pre 1.6 12 man groups could easily hold vs. 60+ with right group comp. Whether it was ground oils or blockade bug or perma banners/negates that healed you and gave full resources or perma invis bats they were all extremely effective and probably more effective than the destro earthgore meta right now. Then came 1.6 and you would go around basically dropping 3 or 4 meteors that hit for 20k+, along w/ well timed prox dets, and 1 shot most pug groups. Also having 30k+ barriers from magicka stacked sorcerer. Can't really speak for how pvp actually felt in group play from IC until Thieves Guild as I pretty much played solo and duo for most of that time, but from what I do remember was it was heavy barrier and steel tornado stam specced groups where it was simply either drop meteor or dawnbreaker and spam PBAOE while you had 8 barriers in rotation (still probably stronger than the current EotS+EG meta in terms of group effectiveness). Then came Thieves Guild patch and that was Mag NB/Mag Sorc meteor or tether bombing enemy groups and using VD, this is probably the only meta that I can think of being harder for groups to fight 3x your numbers. And while EG has made it a little easier it hasn't changed things much since destro came out, I am still running the same gear since 1T patch and feel our group is equally survivable but we also only use 2-4 EG in raid.

Fair points. However, it is much more forgiving/easy if you are running around with 30k+ health and still able to drop a destro ulti and do decent damage. That ulti and earthgore make it far easier now imo.

I have 29.9k health I guess that makes it more of a challenge anything else to put on an easy mode checklist? Maybe using potions and food? Perhaps equipping any gear or at the least making it legendary?

I would love to see videos of you playing in groups (in eso to clarify) to show us how easy fighting 4x your group size is inside a keep and to take that objective.

Would love to but I quit ESO 2 months ago. Game is boring and dead. I am stuck in the middle of the Atlantic on a carrier killing time so I will read anything to pass the time.

Your saying Fantasia never took on 4 times our number? Or IR? lol That's one thing I loved about Crystal. He told us not to post about our achievements. We knew how good we were. There was no need to post daily videos about destroying pug zergs.

There were actually tons of great guilds back then. Not like the current extremely poor state of pvp, or extremely low population of total players or quality players.

So you quit long ago and yet come to say how easy playing our style is despite not playing or being able to.
Why do you think im talking about Fantasia? I'm talking to you personally.

I'm not asking you to post achievements I'm asking you to post measured examples. If someone said "I can fly" you might want them to post a video showing you they can fly rather than just believe them. them posting a video of them flying in response to that wouldn't be "Showing off" it would be "proof".

It is interesting you consider fighting fantasia us fighting pugs though? Would have thought you had more respect for them, we do.

ShadowProc · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Well ESO took all the things that made DAOC great and then decided to copy in a bunch of bad ideas from *** games like GW2.

The players of the game didn’t help either; when you have a lot of people trying to convince everyone that 24 people is one group in pvp you’re not going to have a good pvp game.

I mean, I agree that the execution was poor between balance and straight up server performance. What we got was not what was promised But fundamentally I don't see why we could not have had this. I fail to see why the principal of a 24 man grouping system in huge war like battles is inherently 'bad'.

We don't want DAoC v2. We want an elderscrolls online that works.

Large group battles is what many of us signed up for. I know I did. If I wanted smallscale tactical competitive play I would have just kept playing CS And LoL. As from time to time when I want this I do.

You had 200 man + zergs in DAOC

Know what ya didn’t have?

24 man zerg balls calling them self a group.

Use to... in games if you were in an organized group you generally ran less then the actual zergs and pubs you were fighting against. Then bad games came along with terrible guilds that decided instead of playing better in an organized group they’d just keep stacking numbers.

I'd say IN most games if you're an organized group you play exactly the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format.

But this isn't most games. And I don't imagine we want more of the same.

I don't mean to be argumentative I just want us to not get caught up on the negative and try to be as constructive as we can.

I'm sorry; did you really just try and say you run the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format?

A. You're running a organized zerg group fighting 90% of the time Pugs with less numbers then you who aren't running multiple earthgores/rapids/purges ect ect..

Wow, you did a good job of interpreting that one didn't you mate.

Yeah. I was about to say ... doesn't Drac specialize in embarrassing half a faction (or more) at a time?

To be honest I wasn't talking about ESO at all, let alone referencing my guild. What I actually intended by the statement was to suggest that perhaps any MMO, including DAoC, is not the best example or idol for when talking about competitive PVP. Because more typically any competitive PVP is done in a structured and controlled format. Where two opposing teams compete against one another with equal numbers, nothing more, nothing less. This isn't naturally achievable in an open world environment like ESO. in a truly competitive environment, there wouldn't be pugs, or 40 man stacks.

In that regard, DAoC is hardly the gold standard of competitive gaming...

This was my primary point. My second being that this isn't, and shouldn't be, DAoC. I usually find the best remedy for getting frustrated when my apples don't taste like oranges is to just go eat oranges instead.

DAOC had 8v8.... It was very very competitive... and it was in a world pvp environment. Yes you had Adds...But that was what made it fun a lot of the times.

Basically half the time the terrain is where the two groups met and fight. In fact I had more competitive Fights in DAOC then I've had in every single MMO since then in terms of actual Group vs Group or Guild vs Guild fights.

hell you can go to youtube right now and search for DAOC 8v8, and get scores and scores of videos right now because its because of how that game worked.

You go do that with ESO, and what are you going to put in? ESO XvX? That's ESO's main problem...You can't have competitive PvP in a game where the people running range from 4 to 24 people..

With the amount of times you have referenced DAOC in the last 3 years, why did you leave? Go back if it is so much better. lol

I do agree with you on the fact that taking on 40 pugs now with 16 is not skillful. Earthgore and destro bombs made it easy mode. It use to be real difficult to take on 3 times your number of pugs and win. Now, not so much.

It wasn't ever necessarily difficult to take on 3x your numbers, it always depended on who you were fighting. Pre 1.6 12 man groups could easily hold vs. 60+ with right group comp. Whether it was ground oils or blockade bug or perma banners/negates that healed you and gave full resources or perma invis bats they were all extremely effective and probably more effective than the destro earthgore meta right now. Then came 1.6 and you would go around basically dropping 3 or 4 meteors that hit for 20k+, along w/ well timed prox dets, and 1 shot most pug groups. Also having 30k+ barriers from magicka stacked sorcerer. Can't really speak for how pvp actually felt in group play from IC until Thieves Guild as I pretty much played solo and duo for most of that time, but from what I do remember was it was heavy barrier and steel tornado stam specced groups where it was simply either drop meteor or dawnbreaker and spam PBAOE while you had 8 barriers in rotation (still probably stronger than the current EotS+EG meta in terms of group effectiveness). Then came Thieves Guild patch and that was Mag NB/Mag Sorc meteor or tether bombing enemy groups and using VD, this is probably the only meta that I can think of being harder for groups to fight 3x your numbers. And while EG has made it a little easier it hasn't changed things much since destro came out, I am still running the same gear since 1T patch and feel our group is equally survivable but we also only use 2-4 EG in raid.

Fair points. However, it is much more forgiving/easy if you are running around with 30k+ health and still able to drop a destro ulti and do decent damage. That ulti and earthgore make it far easier now imo.

I have 29.9k health I guess that makes it more of a challenge anything else to put on an easy mode checklist? Maybe using potions and food? Perhaps equipping any gear or at the least making it legendary?

I would love to see videos of you playing in groups (in eso to clarify) to show us how easy fighting 4x your group size is inside a keep and to take that objective.

Would love to but I quit ESO 2 months ago. Game is boring and dead. I am stuck in the middle of the Atlantic on a carrier killing time so I will read anything to pass the time.

Your saying Fantasia never took on 4 times our number? Or IR? lol That's one thing I loved about Crystal. He told us not to post about our achievements. We knew how good we were. There was no need to post daily videos about destroying pug zergs.

There were actually tons of great guilds back then. Not like the current extremely poor state of pvp, or extremely low population of total players or quality players.

So you quit long ago and yet come to say how easy playing our style is despite not playing or being able to.
Why do you think im talking about Fantasia? I'm talking to you personally.

I'm not asking you to post achievements I'm asking you to post measured examples. If someone said "I can fly" you might want them to post a video showing you they can fly rather than just believe them. them posting a video of them flying in response to that wouldn't be "Showing off" it would be "proof".

It is interesting you consider fighting fantasia us fighting pugs though? Would have thought you had more respect for them, we do.

I responded to your quote about me posting something. Which I am not even sure why you took it personally. I was talking to Sneaky.

I was saying that before I quit, I was in Fantasia and we obliterated pugs 4 x our number as well. There is just no need to post videos of it like it is an accomplishment.

Are you saying the game has changed that much in two months? So I guess its not still centered around prox det, destroy ulti, and bomb blades. My bad. lol

Don't worry. You can rest easy. Drac is definitely top dog now with whats left in ESO. I would be curious to see if anyone would agree that it is harder now to take on 4 times your number compared to the first 2 years. The amount of quality players is significantly lower now.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Well ESO took all the things that made DAOC great and then decided to copy in a bunch of bad ideas from *** games like GW2.

The players of the game didn’t help either; when you have a lot of people trying to convince everyone that 24 people is one group in pvp you’re not going to have a good pvp game.

I mean, I agree that the execution was poor between balance and straight up server performance. What we got was not what was promised But fundamentally I don't see why we could not have had this. I fail to see why the principal of a 24 man grouping system in huge war like battles is inherently 'bad'.

We don't want DAoC v2. We want an elderscrolls online that works.

Large group battles is what many of us signed up for. I know I did. If I wanted smallscale tactical competitive play I would have just kept playing CS And LoL. As from time to time when I want this I do.

You had 200 man + zergs in DAOC

Know what ya didn’t have?

24 man zerg balls calling them self a group.

Use to... in games if you were in an organized group you generally ran less then the actual zergs and pubs you were fighting against. Then bad games came along with terrible guilds that decided instead of playing better in an organized group they’d just keep stacking numbers.

I'd say IN most games if you're an organized group you play exactly the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format.

But this isn't most games. And I don't imagine we want more of the same.

I don't mean to be argumentative I just want us to not get caught up on the negative and try to be as constructive as we can.

I'm sorry; did you really just try and say you run the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format?

A. You're running a organized zerg group fighting 90% of the time Pugs with less numbers then you who aren't running multiple earthgores/rapids/purges ect ect..

Wow, you did a good job of interpreting that one didn't you mate.

Yeah. I was about to say ... doesn't Drac specialize in embarrassing half a faction (or more) at a time?

To be honest I wasn't talking about ESO at all, let alone referencing my guild. What I actually intended by the statement was to suggest that perhaps any MMO, including DAoC, is not the best example or idol for when talking about competitive PVP. Because more typically any competitive PVP is done in a structured and controlled format. Where two opposing teams compete against one another with equal numbers, nothing more, nothing less. This isn't naturally achievable in an open world environment like ESO. in a truly competitive environment, there wouldn't be pugs, or 40 man stacks.

In that regard, DAoC is hardly the gold standard of competitive gaming...

This was my primary point. My second being that this isn't, and shouldn't be, DAoC. I usually find the best remedy for getting frustrated when my apples don't taste like oranges is to just go eat oranges instead.

DAOC had 8v8.... It was very very competitive... and it was in a world pvp environment. Yes you had Adds...But that was what made it fun a lot of the times.

Basically half the time the terrain is where the two groups met and fight. In fact I had more competitive Fights in DAOC then I've had in every single MMO since then in terms of actual Group vs Group or Guild vs Guild fights.

hell you can go to youtube right now and search for DAOC 8v8, and get scores and scores of videos right now because its because of how that game worked.

You go do that with ESO, and what are you going to put in? ESO XvX? That's ESO's main problem...You can't have competitive PvP in a game where the people running range from 4 to 24 people..

With the amount of times you have referenced DAOC in the last 3 years, why did you leave? Go back if it is so much better. lol

I do agree with you on the fact that taking on 40 pugs now with 16 is not skillful. Earthgore and destro bombs made it easy mode. It use to be real difficult to take on 3 times your number of pugs and win. Now, not so much.

It wasn't ever necessarily difficult to take on 3x your numbers, it always depended on who you were fighting. Pre 1.6 12 man groups could easily hold vs. 60+ with right group comp. Whether it was ground oils or blockade bug or perma banners/negates that healed you and gave full resources or perma invis bats they were all extremely effective and probably more effective than the destro earthgore meta right now. Then came 1.6 and you would go around basically dropping 3 or 4 meteors that hit for 20k+, along w/ well timed prox dets, and 1 shot most pug groups. Also having 30k+ barriers from magicka stacked sorcerer. Can't really speak for how pvp actually felt in group play from IC until Thieves Guild as I pretty much played solo and duo for most of that time, but from what I do remember was it was heavy barrier and steel tornado stam specced groups where it was simply either drop meteor or dawnbreaker and spam PBAOE while you had 8 barriers in rotation (still probably stronger than the current EotS+EG meta in terms of group effectiveness). Then came Thieves Guild patch and that was Mag NB/Mag Sorc meteor or tether bombing enemy groups and using VD, this is probably the only meta that I can think of being harder for groups to fight 3x your numbers. And while EG has made it a little easier it hasn't changed things much since destro came out, I am still running the same gear since 1T patch and feel our group is equally survivable but we also only use 2-4 EG in raid.

Fair points. However, it is much more forgiving/easy if you are running around with 30k+ health and still able to drop a destro ulti and do decent damage. That ulti and earthgore make it far easier now imo.

I have 29.9k health I guess that makes it more of a challenge anything else to put on an easy mode checklist? Maybe using potions and food? Perhaps equipping any gear or at the least making it legendary?

I would love to see videos of you playing in groups (in eso to clarify) to show us how easy fighting 4x your group size is inside a keep and to take that objective.

Would love to but I quit ESO 2 months ago. Game is boring and dead. I am stuck in the middle of the Atlantic on a carrier killing time so I will read anything to pass the time.

Your saying Fantasia never took on 4 times our number? Or IR? lol That's one thing I loved about Crystal. He told us not to post about our achievements. We knew how good we were. There was no need to post daily videos about destroying pug zergs.

There were actually tons of great guilds back then. Not like the current extremely poor state of pvp, or extremely low population of total players or quality players.

So you quit long ago and yet come to say how easy playing our style is despite not playing or being able to.
Why do you think im talking about Fantasia? I'm talking to you personally.

I'm not asking you to post achievements I'm asking you to post measured examples. If someone said "I can fly" you might want them to post a video showing you they can fly rather than just believe them. them posting a video of them flying in response to that wouldn't be "Showing off" it would be "proof".

It is interesting you consider fighting fantasia us fighting pugs though? Would have thought you had more respect for them, we do.

I responded to your quote about me posting something. Which I am not even sure why you took it personally. I was talking to Sneaky.

I was saying that before I quit, I was in Fantasia and we obliterated pugs 4 x our number as well. There is just no need to post videos of it like it is an accomplishment.

Are you saying the game has changed that much in two months? So I guess its not still centered around prox det, destroy ulti, and bomb blades. My bad. lol

Don't worry. You can rest easy. Drac is definitely top dog now with whats left in ESO. I would be curious to see if anyone would agree that it is harder now to take on 4 times your number compared to the first 2 years. The amount of quality players is significantly lower now.

I replied to you because its tiring to see players complaining about something incorrect.
I've never worried where my guild sits on any players thoughts of ranking, the only thing I care about is how we perceive and analyse our own performance. I'm glad you think so highly of us though.

I think most players would actually disagree with you (if they played back at launch 1.2-1.5 etc) it was so easy to kill hundreds of pugs far far more than now. you could take out 50+ with 4 people back then, now the same is only true if they are a group running stacked on crown. Groups actually have the hardest fights in the current meta (pre earthgore was probs a little harder but aside from that exception). Its so easy to get burst down or negated it doesnt even take many to do so.

I think the clearest example of this is the fact that so many guilds are quitting because they don't perform as well as they used to. Of course this is always masked behind "tired of the game etc". Which to a degree is of course true, the game has been out a long time at this point for an MMO. You also have holidays to consider now. However if you compare successful groups vs groups bleeding members and slowing down runs the main difference is normally their performance. Its fun to win. Simple as that.

Kilandros · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I think the clearest example of this is the fact that so many guilds are quitting because they don't perform as well as they used to.

Wait, what?

Rainraven · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Well ESO took all the things that made DAOC great and then decided to copy in a bunch of bad ideas from *** games like GW2.

The players of the game didn’t help either; when you have a lot of people trying to convince everyone that 24 people is one group in pvp you’re not going to have a good pvp game.

I mean, I agree that the execution was poor between balance and straight up server performance. What we got was not what was promised But fundamentally I don't see why we could not have had this. I fail to see why the principal of a 24 man grouping system in huge war like battles is inherently 'bad'.

We don't want DAoC v2. We want an elderscrolls online that works.

Large group battles is what many of us signed up for. I know I did. If I wanted smallscale tactical competitive play I would have just kept playing CS And LoL. As from time to time when I want this I do.

You had 200 man + zergs in DAOC

Know what ya didn’t have?

24 man zerg balls calling them self a group.

Use to... in games if you were in an organized group you generally ran less then the actual zergs and pubs you were fighting against. Then bad games came along with terrible guilds that decided instead of playing better in an organized group they’d just keep stacking numbers.

I'd say IN most games if you're an organized group you play exactly the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format.

But this isn't most games. And I don't imagine we want more of the same.

I don't mean to be argumentative I just want us to not get caught up on the negative and try to be as constructive as we can.

I'm sorry; did you really just try and say you run the same numbers as your enemies in a competitive format?

A. You're running a organized zerg group fighting 90% of the time Pugs with less numbers then you who aren't running multiple earthgores/rapids/purges ect ect..

Wow, you did a good job of interpreting that one didn't you mate.

Yeah. I was about to say ... doesn't Drac specialize in embarrassing half a faction (or more) at a time?

To be honest I wasn't talking about ESO at all, let alone referencing my guild. What I actually intended by the statement was to suggest that perhaps any MMO, including DAoC, is not the best example or idol for when talking about competitive PVP. Because more typically any competitive PVP is done in a structured and controlled format. Where two opposing teams compete against one another with equal numbers, nothing more, nothing less. This isn't naturally achievable in an open world environment like ESO. in a truly competitive environment, there wouldn't be pugs, or 40 man stacks.

In that regard, DAoC is hardly the gold standard of competitive gaming...

This was my primary point. My second being that this isn't, and shouldn't be, DAoC. I usually find the best remedy for getting frustrated when my apples don't taste like oranges is to just go eat oranges instead.

DAOC had 8v8.... It was very very competitive... and it was in a world pvp environment. Yes you had Adds...But that was what made it fun a lot of the times.

Basically half the time the terrain is where the two groups met and fight. In fact I had more competitive Fights in DAOC then I've had in every single MMO since then in terms of actual Group vs Group or Guild vs Guild fights.

hell you can go to youtube right now and search for DAOC 8v8, and get scores and scores of videos right now because its because of how that game worked.

You go do that with ESO, and what are you going to put in? ESO XvX? That's ESO's main problem...You can't have competitive PvP in a game where the people running range from 4 to 24 people..

With the amount of times you have referenced DAOC in the last 3 years, why did you leave? Go back if it is so much better. lol

I do agree with you on the fact that taking on 40 pugs now with 16 is not skillful. Earthgore and destro bombs made it easy mode. It use to be real difficult to take on 3 times your number of pugs and win. Now, not so much.

It wasn't ever necessarily difficult to take on 3x your numbers, it always depended on who you were fighting. Pre 1.6 12 man groups could easily hold vs. 60+ with right group comp. Whether it was ground oils or blockade bug or perma banners/negates that healed you and gave full resources or perma invis bats they were all extremely effective and probably more effective than the destro earthgore meta right now. Then came 1.6 and you would go around basically dropping 3 or 4 meteors that hit for 20k+, along w/ well timed prox dets, and 1 shot most pug groups. Also having 30k+ barriers from magicka stacked sorcerer. Can't really speak for how pvp actually felt in group play from IC until Thieves Guild as I pretty much played solo and duo for most of that time, but from what I do remember was it was heavy barrier and steel tornado stam specced groups where it was simply either drop meteor or dawnbreaker and spam PBAOE while you had 8 barriers in rotation (still probably stronger than the current EotS+EG meta in terms of group effectiveness). Then came Thieves Guild patch and that was Mag NB/Mag Sorc meteor or tether bombing enemy groups and using VD, this is probably the only meta that I can think of being harder for groups to fight 3x your numbers. And while EG has made it a little easier it hasn't changed things much since destro came out, I am still running the same gear since 1T patch and feel our group is equally survivable but we also only use 2-4 EG in raid.

Fair points. However, it is much more forgiving/easy if you are running around with 30k+ health and still able to drop a destro ulti and do decent damage. That ulti and earthgore make it far easier now imo.

I have 29.9k health I guess that makes it more of a challenge anything else to put on an easy mode checklist? Maybe using potions and food? Perhaps equipping any gear or at the least making it legendary?

I would love to see videos of you playing in groups (in eso to clarify) to show us how easy fighting 4x your group size is inside a keep and to take that objective.

Would love to but I quit ESO 2 months ago. Game is boring and dead. I am stuck in the middle of the Atlantic on a carrier killing time so I will read anything to pass the time.

Your saying Fantasia never took on 4 times our number? Or IR? lol That's one thing I loved about Crystal. He told us not to post about our achievements. We knew how good we were. There was no need to post daily videos about destroying pug zergs.

There were actually tons of great guilds back then. Not like the current extremely poor state of pvp, or extremely low population of total players or quality players.

So you quit long ago and yet come to say how easy playing our style is despite not playing or being able to.
Why do you think im talking about Fantasia? I'm talking to you personally.

I'm not asking you to post achievements I'm asking you to post measured examples. If someone said "I can fly" you might want them to post a video showing you they can fly rather than just believe them. them posting a video of them flying in response to that wouldn't be "Showing off" it would be "proof".

It is interesting you consider fighting fantasia us fighting pugs though? Would have thought you had more respect for them, we do.

I responded to your quote about me posting something. Which I am not even sure why you took it personally. I was talking to Sneaky.

I was saying that before I quit, I was in Fantasia and we obliterated pugs 4 x our number as well. There is just no need to post videos of it like it is an accomplishment.

Are you saying the game has changed that much in two months? So I guess its not still centered around prox det, destroy ulti, and bomb blades. My bad. lol

Don't worry. You can rest easy. Drac is definitely top dog now with whats left in ESO. I would be curious to see if anyone would agree that it is harder now to take on 4 times your number compared to the first 2 years. The amount of quality players is significantly lower now.

I think the clearest example of this is the fact that so many guilds are quitting because they don't perform as well as they used to.

Wait, what? lol

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I think the clearest example of this is the fact that so many guilds are quitting because they don't perform as well as they used to.

Wait, what?

I think I quite adequately explained it in my post. I would be fascinated to hear your take on it though

Kilandros · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I think the clearest example of this is the fact that so many guilds are quitting because they don't perform as well as they used to.

Wait, what?

I think I quite adequately explained it in my post.

After I read your post I thought about it and I couldn't pin down any guilds that I think quit because they couldn't compete anymore though. That just feels like kind of a bold statement to make considering guilds quit for a myriad of reasons. I dunno. I am curious to know which guilds you think quit for that reason though (not bait, genuinely curious).

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I think the clearest example of this is the fact that so many guilds are quitting because they don't perform as well as they used to.

Wait, what?

I think I quite adequately explained it in my post.

After I read your post I thought about it and I couldn't pin down any guilds that I think quit because they couldn't compete anymore though. That just feels like kind of a bold statement to make considering guilds quit for a myriad of reasons. I dunno. I am curious to know which guilds you think quit for that reason though (not bait, genuinely curious).

I can't think of any guild which quits when times are good for them. Perhaps you can name some which you think did.

Kilandros · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I think the clearest example of this is the fact that so many guilds are quitting because they don't perform as well as they used to.

Wait, what?

I think I quite adequately explained it in my post.

After I read your post I thought about it and I couldn't pin down any guilds that I think quit because they couldn't compete anymore though. That just feels like kind of a bold statement to make considering guilds quit for a myriad of reasons. I dunno. I am curious to know which guilds you think quit for that reason though (not bait, genuinely curious).

I can't think of any guild which quits when times are good for them. Perhaps you can name some which you think did.

The two most recent guilds that come to mind are KHole and probably VE. KHole quit while it was still arguably the best guild active. And VE didn't seem like they quit because they were struggling to put groups together.

I guess it's also worth pointing out that there's a difference between asking which guilds quit because they couldn't compete and asking which guild quits when times are good for them. Some guilds might last longer due to high performance even if players are experiencing game fatigue, but that doesn't necessarily mean the guild degraded to being noncompetitive by the time those players actually called it quits. I think it's worth honing in on one of those points if we're gonna continue brainstorming here.

Rin_Senya · December 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

The two most recent guilds that come to mind are KHole and probably VE. KHole quit while it was still arguably the best guild active. And VE didn't seem like they quit because they were struggling to put groups together.

I guess it's also worth pointing out that there's a difference between asking which guilds quit because they couldn't compete and asking which guild quits when times are good for them. Some guilds might last longer due to high performance even if players are experiencing game fatigue, but that doesn't necessarily mean the guild degraded to being noncompetitive by the time those players actually called it quits. I think it's worth honing in on one of those points if we're gonna continue brainstorming here.

I mean... lol? All guilds that I know in this game quit because they struggeled to compete and/or find good activities and entertaiment for their members. I agree with Iz, no one quits because of having a good times.

Kilandros · December 2017

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

The two most recent guilds that come to mind are KHole and probably VE. KHole quit while it was still arguably the best guild active. And VE didn't seem like they quit because they were struggling to put groups together.

I guess it's also worth pointing out that there's a difference between asking which guilds quit because they couldn't compete and asking which guild quits when times are good for them. Some guilds might last longer due to high performance even if players are experiencing game fatigue, but that doesn't necessarily mean the guild degraded to being noncompetitive by the time those players actually called it quits. I think it's worth honing in on one of those points if we're gonna continue brainstorming here.

I mean... lol? All guilds that I know in this game quit because they struggeled to compete and/or find good activities and entertaiment for their members. I agree with Iz, no one quits because of having a good times.

I don't know anything about guilds on EU, but I couldn't think of any on NA that quit because they simply couldn't compete. You guys can name a couple as examples. I don't pretend to know the why's and how's of every guild that called it quits so I am curious.

And again, I think we gotta distinguish between good times and noncompetitive. Those are too very different things. I agree that if people are having fun playing, they aren't likely to quit. But you can have fun without being competitive, and you can be competitive without having fun. I'm focusing on guilds that you're saying quit because they weren't competitive any longer.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

The two most recent guilds that come to mind are KHole and probably VE. KHole quit while it was still arguably the best guild active. And VE didn't seem like they quit because they were struggling to put groups together.

I guess it's also worth pointing out that there's a difference between asking which guilds quit because they couldn't compete and asking which guild quits when times are good for them. Some guilds might last longer due to high performance even if players are experiencing game fatigue, but that doesn't necessarily mean the guild degraded to being noncompetitive by the time those players actually called it quits. I think it's worth honing in on one of those points if we're gonna continue brainstorming here.

I mean... lol? All guilds that I know in this game quit because they struggeled to compete and/or find good activities and entertaiment for their members. I agree with Iz, no one quits because of having a good times.

I don't know anything about guilds on EU, but I couldn't think of any on NA that quit because they simply couldn't compete. You guys can name a couple as examples. I don't pretend to know the why's and how's of every guild that called it quits so I am curious.

Both the guilds you mention were not in comparison to their hay day performance by the time they quit.

Lets take mag dk as an example. At launch Mag DK had some serious bugs and over performance. Because of this many mag dk's were born. When they got brought back into line (despite still being viable) the vast majority quit the game or changed class. You could still reck people on Mag DK as people like Etaniel, Skaffa, Rubixy (and many others who I havent named) showed yet because they weren't performing at their best the others quit.

This is an example of the problem. I see many guilds struggling with their performance, even on streams etc often dieing whilst outnumbering pugs even. Some take it upon themselves to try and improve, others quit or dwindle. I don't think that's too hard to see personally.

Satiar · December 2017

VE left the game due to leader and core burnout at playing a broken game in a dumb meta with very few fun fights to be found.

The insinuation that we left because we couldn’t compete is ridiculous.

Kilandros · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

The two most recent guilds that come to mind are KHole and probably VE. KHole quit while it was still arguably the best guild active. And VE didn't seem like they quit because they were struggling to put groups together.

I guess it's also worth pointing out that there's a difference between asking which guilds quit because they couldn't compete and asking which guild quits when times are good for them. Some guilds might last longer due to high performance even if players are experiencing game fatigue, but that doesn't necessarily mean the guild degraded to being noncompetitive by the time those players actually called it quits. I think it's worth honing in on one of those points if we're gonna continue brainstorming here.

I mean... lol? All guilds that I know in this game quit because they struggeled to compete and/or find good activities and entertaiment for their members. I agree with Iz, no one quits because of having a good times.

I don't know anything about guilds on EU, but I couldn't think of any on NA that quit because they simply couldn't compete. You guys can name a couple as examples. I don't pretend to know the why's and how's of every guild that called it quits so I am curious.

Both the guilds you mention were not in comparison to their hay day performance by the time they quit.

Lets take mag dk as an example. At launch Mag DK had some serious bugs and over performance. Because of this many mag dk's were born. When they got brought back into line (despite still being viable) the vast majority quit the game or changed class. You could still reck people on Mag DK as people like Etaniel, Skaffa, Rubixy (and many others who I havent named) showed yet because they weren't performing at their best the others quit.

This is an example of the problem. I see many guilds struggling with their performance, even on streams etc. Some take it upon themselves to try and improve, others quit or dwindle. I don't think that's too hard to see personally.

I'm not sure what you mean by those guilds not being in their hay day performance? Using KHole as the example, they had just flawlessly won the GvG (I believe they had 0 deaths in the 2nd GvG) and they quit shortly thereafter. From my recollection, KHole was at the top of its game, but half the guild moved to BDO and that basically killed off the guild.

We can probably keep the analogies out of this one. MDK is still a sore subject for me. And there are plenty of guilds to use as real examples.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

Satiar wrote: »

VE left the game due to leader and core burnout at playing a broken game in a dumb meta with very few fun fights to be found.

The insinuation that we left because we couldn’t compete is ridiculous.

I never mentioned VE or made that insinuation.

usmcjdking · December 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

VE left the game due to leader and core burnout at playing a broken game in a dumb meta with very few fun fights to be found.

The insinuation that we left because we couldn’t compete is ridiculous.

I never mentioned VE or made that insinuation.

Then who are you insinuating?

There's like, three guilds that are even eligible for the statement you made lol.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

VE left the game due to leader and core burnout at playing a broken game in a dumb meta with very few fun fights to be found.

The insinuation that we left because we couldn’t compete is ridiculous.

I never mentioned VE or made that insinuation.

Then who are you insinuating?

There's like, three guilds that are even eligible for the statement you made lol.

I think every guild in the game only quits when things aren't going as well as they used to.

There is a vast difference between that and being completely unable to compete. Very few guilds get to that stage but there have been some.

How I see it is that the job of groups is to adapt to whatever pvp environment is given to us. Some adapt well for a particular patch, some don't. The guilds which do adapt are not normally the ones to quit.

With every observation there is of course exceptions hence why I don't name specific guilds.

IcyDeadPeople · December 2017

ShadowProc wrote: »

I would be curious to see if anyone would agree that it is harder now to take on 4 times your number compared to the first 2 years. The amount of quality players is significantly lower now.

Played off and on since early access and I'd disagree. During the first year or so after launch, if you understood very basic things like how to block, dodge roll occasionally, move away from bats, avoid sniping yourself to death on DK reflect, etc, you were like one of the elite players in this game. Most people had trouble with that stuff, let alone optimizing a build.

This is a completely different game now, not only because of removal of soft caps, but also because the average player in Cyrodiil is a lot more skilled and knowledgeable about the game compared to the average player back then.

Rin_Senya · December 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by those guilds not being in their hay day performance? Using KHole as the example, they had just flawlessly won the GvG (I believe they had 0 deaths in the 2nd GvG) and they quit shortly thereafter. From my recollection, KHole was at the top of its game, but half the guild moved to BDO and that basically killed off the guild.

We can probably keep the analogies out of this one. MDK is still a sore subject for me. And there are plenty of guilds to use as real examples.

I can give you the same example with Banana Squad, which was one of the best guilds that EU ever had. It was the same story with the guild - most members moved to other games so yes we were struggling to getting a proper group up and perform on the same lvl as we used before simply because of the lack of members. I see a lot nowadays people saying things like "yeh we struggling getting even 12 man online". If you don't see it - it doesn't mean it's not happening

Vizier · December 2017

Dramatically increase the cost of purge. The reason being CC's have been vastly improved in recent patches and can be a great counter to the fast moving Zerg Balls. Charged Frost staffs and spammable immobilize spells are wonderfully effective at breaking up large groups, but groups constantly spamming purge pretty much negate any possibility of breaking them up with CC's.

EOTS needs a harsh Nerf to bring it in line with other AOE ultimates. It is ridiculously OP compared to others. I feel like these two changes would change the meta dramatically.

Also, players need to be more savvy. What I mean is they need to stop feeding the meta. They need to stop following these meta trains to choke points and closed areas where they can be easily run over by a superior force. Also, more use of negates would help.

Kilandros · December 2017

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by those guilds not being in their hay day performance? Using KHole as the example, they had just flawlessly won the GvG (I believe they had 0 deaths in the 2nd GvG) and they quit shortly thereafter. From my recollection, KHole was at the top of its game, but half the guild moved to BDO and that basically killed off the guild.

We can probably keep the analogies out of this one. MDK is still a sore subject for me. And there are plenty of guilds to use as real examples.

I can give you the same example with Banana Squad, which was one of the best guilds that EU ever had. It was the same story with the guild - most members moved to other games so yes we were struggling to getting a proper group up and perform on the same lvl as we used before simply because of the lack of members. I see a lot nowadays people saying things like "yeh we struggling getting even 12 man online". If you don't see it - it doesn't mean it's not happening

Yeah, so that's not your fault for becoming noncompetitive if most of the guild quit to play something else. It takes time to rebuild after something like that. Give yourselves some credit.

zyk · December 2017

From my POV, a lot of guilds have had to accept being more casual than they once were because members just aren't willing to commit to ESO anymore and either quit or take frequent extended breaks because of bugs, performance and gameplay issues.

I've felt like returning to AvA recently and took a step towards that last night, but it was a truly awful experience on all levels:
- server performance felt worse than it did when I last played regularly during the summer. it was a shock to my system to experience it
- client performance was terrible due to the 30-50% fps drop bug which still hasn't been addressed
- gameplay is terrible; no one defends; faction stacks are everywhere; the scoring system has conditioned played to LIKE being pushed to their gates so they can reap the oticks; earthgore; the solo map play experience seems completely dead to me

I came away frustrated and angry at ZOS for sitting on their hands; probably because they're getting rich from Skyrim whales.