NB is now top dog and is op.

  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Rianai wrote: »
    Shadowrend wasn't banned, but it counted as pet for the 1 pet only rule and TK was banned because it is bugged (doesn't get reduced by defile).
    No it was banned @NightbladeMechanics mentioned that since you can't target the pet its not allowed.Since their no counterplay against it.

    What silly justification is that?
    You can purge the Maim comfortably. Left is a bit damage increase, bohoo. Is Slimecraw also banned? Skoria? Mines? Purge?

    That's why you can't take duels seriously. Just a set of arbitrary rules or a lot of cheese.
    Meh, to each his/her own...

    Shadowrend is more dps than Skoria, it reapplies its debuff on its next hit following a purge, not everyone has a purge like you, and its debuff's long duration gives it 100% uptime in a fight. Note that Maim is a powerful debuff which most classes were deliberately designed around not having ready access to.

    It isn't op, but it is plenty strong enough to warrant categorization as a pet, especially since it procs Necropotence.

    The main qualification we looked for when defining "pets" was continuing to attack the enemy while you were on defense. That reduces counterplay and competitiveness in the fight.

    To claim that Shadowrend isn't extremely strong and worth regulating -- note, not banning outright -- or to call any and all rules for dueling tournaments "arbitrary" because they're player-created is to simply be uninformed or biased.

    Daus wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    Turns out OP was correct. Magicka Nightblade is top dog. :smiley:

    GTFO, Kena is top... Magblade just rewards the skilled and learned while punishing the weak and stupid. As ANY class should be, but right now it seems only nightblade is that way

    From what I observed he was the superior player in terms of skill. I believe you're correct. Nightblades have the highest ceiling, and the lowest floor.

    Stamblades have a low floor and high cap. Destro mageblade has a low floor and a used to have a high cap. It's become sooooo strong and forgiving since Morrowind, though. Go play melee mageblade against good opponents and tell me where you think its floor lies in comparison.

    (I get mildly triggered when the two are considered equal these days. lol)

    KingJ wrote: »
    Thogard wrote: »
    Was the winner running a minor defile poison?
    Poisons were banned He was running Duroks bane I believe on his magblade.

    Correct. :) Befoul is overtuned and dominates the meta unfortunately, but strong healing classes stalemate fights hardcore without it.

    I'm not of the opinion that Durok's itself is op since you give up an entire gear set worth of bonuses for some tankiness and the defile (compared to Warden's Corrupting Pollen for example), but it is a very strong set right now. To clarify, there are many very strong sets right now. In fact, I've already unequipped Durok's and moved on to something which I consider stronger.

    ~~

    I'm happy to answer any questions about the nightblade class or dueling mechanics if folks are interested, but claiming that the class is op because you get ganked by incap, fail to catch a fleeing, cloaking nightblade, or one guy wins one tournament using one is pretty narrow thinking. Just saying. Anyways, prior to Saturday, I hadn't participated in organized dueling since the tournaments I won in One Tamriel and Homestead. It's kind of nice to pop back in see what's up. <3 Look forward to more tourneys hosted by Legend!
    Kena
    Legion XIII
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    Legend
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  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Well, gratz for your victory.
    =)

    As you said, and from my personal experience, Shadowrend is not OP. And that is why I'm questioning those rules.
    I take it it wasn't banned but counted as a pet, of which one was allowed... That is somewhat reasonable, although I must add that pet sorcs in duels are OP, not that particular set. It's a weird rule that seems to dance around the actual problem.

    What was regulated in terms of magDK, if I may ask?
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Well, gratz for your victory.
    =)

    As you said, and from my personal experience, Shadowrend is not OP. And that is why I'm questioning those rules.
    I take it it wasn't banned but counted as a pet, of which one was allowed... That is somewhat reasonable, although I must add that pet sorcs in duels are OP, not that particular set. It's a weird rule that seems to dance around the actual problem.

    What was regulated in terms of magDK, if I may ask?

    I agree, Shadowrend is also fairly easy to move around.

    But! It really doesn't matter, I think the whole thing was cool. I thought maybe the rules would favor magicka, but frankly it seems they favored stamina, and despite that, very few takers. Especially with "Stam warden OP" craze.
    Gamer tag: ShenronNacht NA Xbox One
    1100+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er
    Shepherd of Rot - Stamina Necromancer BG Archer - No Gank
  • KingJ
    KingJ
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Rianai wrote: »
    Shadowrend wasn't banned, but it counted as pet for the 1 pet only rule and TK was banned because it is bugged (doesn't get reduced by defile).
    No it was banned @NightbladeMechanics mentioned that since you can't target the pet its not allowed.Since their no counterplay against it.

    What silly justification is that?
    You can purge the Maim comfortably. Left is a bit damage increase, bohoo. Is Slimecraw also banned? Skoria? Mines? Purge?

    That's why you can't take duels seriously. Just a set of arbitrary rules or a lot of cheese.
    Meh, to each his/her own...
    Nah mine,skoria and purge was all allowed.Only a handful of things were banned.

    Only 1 class has access to a efficient purge ability templars.Even if your purge the maim shadow would just reapply it and like you said it deals decent damage.While being un targetable.I see why it was banned personally.
  • KingJ
    KingJ
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Well, gratz for your victory.
    =)

    As you said, and from my personal experience, Shadowrend is not OP. And that is why I'm questioning those rules.
    I take it it wasn't banned but counted as a pet, of which one was allowed... That is somewhat reasonable, although I must add that pet sorcs in duels are OP, not that particular set. It's a weird rule that seems to dance around the actual problem.

    What was regulated in terms of magDK, if I may ask?

    I agree, Shadowrend is also fairly easy to move around.

    But! It really doesn't matter, I think the whole thing was cool. I thought maybe the rules would favor magicka, but frankly it seems they favored stamina, and despite that, very few takers. Especially with "Stam warden OP" craze.
    That fact only stam build were stamblade is very surprising. Not to mentioned Heal debuffs hurt Stambuilds more imo since all their heals are HOt.A debuffed instant breath is still better than a debuff HOT.
  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    KingJ wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Well, gratz for your victory.
    =)

    As you said, and from my personal experience, Shadowrend is not OP. And that is why I'm questioning those rules.
    I take it it wasn't banned but counted as a pet, of which one was allowed... That is somewhat reasonable, although I must add that pet sorcs in duels are OP, not that particular set. It's a weird rule that seems to dance around the actual problem.

    What was regulated in terms of magDK, if I may ask?

    I agree, Shadowrend is also fairly easy to move around.

    But! It really doesn't matter, I think the whole thing was cool. I thought maybe the rules would favor magicka, but frankly it seems they favored stamina, and despite that, very few takers. Especially with "Stam warden OP" craze.
    That fact only stam build were stamblade is very surprising. Not to mentioned Heal debuffs hurt Stambuilds more imo since all their heals are HOt.A debuffed instant breath is still better than a debuff HOT.

    I truly believe the stam imbalance was just a conflict of interests/scheduling type thing. They will perform worse against the defile meta we’re seeing so far, however they still have very dangerous burst and access to defile as part of their meta kit(Reverb, incap). Stamplar has a direct answer to defile builds, stamden can soft counter ranged magika builds(sorcs, ranged mageblade, magden). Stam isn’t grossly underperforming as some people are trying to say after this tourney, but it is more susceptible to defile than magika builds with shields to relieve pressure
    Edited by Lexxypwns on November 28, 2017 4:03AM
    PC NA
    @lexxypwns
    Xbox NA
    GT: Champion Points
    GT: Crown Crates

    Mageblade main
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Rianai wrote: »
    Shadowrend wasn't banned, but it counted as pet for the 1 pet only rule and TK was banned because it is bugged (doesn't get reduced by defile).
    No it was banned @NightbladeMechanics mentioned that since you can't target the pet its not allowed.Since their no counterplay against it.

    What silly justification is that?
    You can purge the Maim comfortably. Left is a bit damage increase, bohoo. Is Slimecraw also banned? Skoria? Mines? Purge?

    That's why you can't take duels seriously. Just a set of arbitrary rules or a lot of cheese.
    Meh, to each his/her own...

    Shadowrend is more dps than Skoria, it reapplies its debuff on its next hit following a purge, not everyone has a purge like you, and its debuff's long duration gives it 100% uptime in a fight. Note that Maim is a powerful debuff which most classes were deliberately designed around not having ready access to.

    It isn't op, but it is plenty strong enough to warrant categorization as a pet, especially since it procs Necropotence.

    The main qualification we looked for when defining "pets" was continuing to attack the enemy while you were on defense. That reduces counterplay and competitiveness in the fight.

    To claim that Shadowrend isn't extremely strong and worth regulating -- note, not banning outright -- or to call any and all rules for dueling tournaments "arbitrary" because they're player-created is to simply be uninformed or biased.

    Daus wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    Turns out OP was correct. Magicka Nightblade is top dog. :smiley:

    GTFO, Kena is top... Magblade just rewards the skilled and learned while punishing the weak and stupid. As ANY class should be, but right now it seems only nightblade is that way

    From what I observed he was the superior player in terms of skill. I believe you're correct. Nightblades have the highest ceiling, and the lowest floor.

    Stamblades have a low floor and high cap. Destro mageblade has a low floor and a used to have a high cap. It's become sooooo strong and forgiving since Morrowind, though. Go play melee mageblade against good opponents and tell me where you think its floor lies in comparison.

    (I get mildly triggered when the two are considered equal these days. lol)

    KingJ wrote: »
    Thogard wrote: »
    Was the winner running a minor defile poison?
    Poisons were banned He was running Duroks bane I believe on his magblade.

    Correct. :) Befoul is overtuned and dominates the meta unfortunately, but strong healing classes stalemate fights hardcore without it.

    I'm not of the opinion that Durok's itself is op since you give up an entire gear set worth of bonuses for some tankiness and the defile (compared to Warden's Corrupting Pollen for example), but it is a very strong set right now. To clarify, there are many very strong sets right now. In fact, I've already unequipped Durok's and moved on to something which I consider stronger.

    ~~

    I'm happy to answer any questions about the nightblade class or dueling mechanics if folks are interested, but claiming that the class is op because you get ganked by incap, fail to catch a fleeing, cloaking nightblade, or one guy wins one tournament using one is pretty narrow thinking. Just saying. Anyways, prior to Saturday, I hadn't participated in organized dueling since the tournaments I won in One Tamriel and Homestead. It's kind of nice to pop back in see what's up. <3 Look forward to more tourneys hosted by Legend!

    It is also worth noting that your specific performance in this tournament was tied not just to your skill, but the very powerful, duel specific build you ran. I’m not criticizing you for tailoring a build specifically to the situation you were in, I’m just pointing out that taking any view on class balance based on these results is short sighted. Would a stamden in 5 Duroks 2 Malu 5 7th have performed significantly different? Prolly not, same for a magplar in duroks+damage set, etc. What clenched the tournament was the fact that you correctly identified melee, heal based, builds as being your biggest potential downfall and took care to soft counter these builds.

    Again, not being critical of you at all, just hoping people will realize that a NB winning a major tourney isn’t proof of it overperforming.

    I agree. I could not have won with just any build of course, and the results here reflect more on CP and healing balance than on class balance. Kodi used Reverb on his stam warden when he won that small tournament a while back. The mag warden this Saturday made me stand in Corrupting Pollen. Persistent heal debuffs are just good.

    But why do you consider wearing Durok's to be a duel specific build, and why do you consider building in line with the overall meta of the game to be tailoring my build for the specific situation, i.e. the tourney, implying that the tourney's meta is meaningfully different than that of open world or other spheres of PvP?

    I spent all of this afternoon and evening playing this Durok's build in Cyrodiil (needed Transmute crystals for the next build) with zero changes besides putting cloak on the bar, and it excels in solo 1vX and small group play fighting a diversity of opponents just as well as it does in duels.

    But none of this is new...nor is any of it limited to dueling in my gameplay... I have used Fasalla's in numerous builds beginning in Thieves Guild when it was first introduced. Since its nerf, Durok's has taken its place. My favorite 1vX build from Dark Brotherhood through Homestead actually used Fasalla's destro + Transmutation resto + Valkyn with mist form. I could tank so many people in that build, and despite it having only glyphs and mundus for damage, the huge Fasalla's debuff made my damage stick and made me plenty lethal.
    That's also the build with which I killed German's magicka sorc on Sypher's stream on the Stormhaven beach right after he accepted the prize for winning Sypher's dueling tournament on the very first day of One Tamriel. You can see it over Sypher's shoulder in his past broadcasts from that day. Shields were no problem if I outplayed them, even in a low damage heal debuff build, and if there was any sorc to test that statement, it was German.
    Kena
    Legion XIII
    Excellence without elitism
    Premier small scale PvP

    Legend
    NA/PC's original dueling and PvP community guild
    Now NA/PC's dueling, BGs, small scale, GvG, and general PvP community. We float just under 500 members. Mail me in game for an invite.


    Apex Predator.

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  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Rianai wrote: »
    Shadowrend wasn't banned, but it counted as pet for the 1 pet only rule and TK was banned because it is bugged (doesn't get reduced by defile).
    No it was banned @NightbladeMechanics mentioned that since you can't target the pet its not allowed.Since their no counterplay against it.

    What silly justification is that?
    You can purge the Maim comfortably. Left is a bit damage increase, bohoo. Is Slimecraw also banned? Skoria? Mines? Purge?

    That's why you can't take duels seriously. Just a set of arbitrary rules or a lot of cheese.
    Meh, to each his/her own...

    Shadowrend is more dps than Skoria, it reapplies its debuff on its next hit following a purge, not everyone has a purge like you, and its debuff's long duration gives it 100% uptime in a fight. Note that Maim is a powerful debuff which most classes were deliberately designed around not having ready access to.

    It isn't op, but it is plenty strong enough to warrant categorization as a pet, especially since it procs Necropotence.

    The main qualification we looked for when defining "pets" was continuing to attack the enemy while you were on defense. That reduces counterplay and competitiveness in the fight.

    To claim that Shadowrend isn't extremely strong and worth regulating -- note, not banning outright -- or to call any and all rules for dueling tournaments "arbitrary" because they're player-created is to simply be uninformed or biased.

    Daus wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    Turns out OP was correct. Magicka Nightblade is top dog. :smiley:

    GTFO, Kena is top... Magblade just rewards the skilled and learned while punishing the weak and stupid. As ANY class should be, but right now it seems only nightblade is that way

    From what I observed he was the superior player in terms of skill. I believe you're correct. Nightblades have the highest ceiling, and the lowest floor.

    Stamblades have a low floor and high cap. Destro mageblade has a low floor and a used to have a high cap. It's become sooooo strong and forgiving since Morrowind, though. Go play melee mageblade against good opponents and tell me where you think its floor lies in comparison.

    (I get mildly triggered when the two are considered equal these days. lol)

    KingJ wrote: »
    Thogard wrote: »
    Was the winner running a minor defile poison?
    Poisons were banned He was running Duroks bane I believe on his magblade.

    Correct. :) Befoul is overtuned and dominates the meta unfortunately, but strong healing classes stalemate fights hardcore without it.

    I'm not of the opinion that Durok's itself is op since you give up an entire gear set worth of bonuses for some tankiness and the defile (compared to Warden's Corrupting Pollen for example), but it is a very strong set right now. To clarify, there are many very strong sets right now. In fact, I've already unequipped Durok's and moved on to something which I consider stronger.

    ~~

    I'm happy to answer any questions about the nightblade class or dueling mechanics if folks are interested, but claiming that the class is op because you get ganked by incap, fail to catch a fleeing, cloaking nightblade, or one guy wins one tournament using one is pretty narrow thinking. Just saying. Anyways, prior to Saturday, I hadn't participated in organized dueling since the tournaments I won in One Tamriel and Homestead. It's kind of nice to pop back in see what's up. <3 Look forward to more tourneys hosted by Legend!

    It is also worth noting that your specific performance in this tournament was tied not just to your skill, but the very powerful, duel specific build you ran. I’m not criticizing you for tailoring a build specifically to the situation you were in, I’m just pointing out that taking any view on class balance based on these results is short sighted. Would a stamden in 5 Duroks 2 Malu 5 7th have performed significantly different? Prolly not, same for a magplar in duroks+damage set, etc. What clenched the tournament was the fact that you correctly identified melee, heal based, builds as being your biggest potential downfall and took care to soft counter these builds.

    Again, not being critical of you at all, just hoping people will realize that a NB winning a major tourney isn’t proof of it overperforming.

    I agree. I could not have won with just any build of course, and the results here reflect more on CP and healing balance than on class balance. Kodi used Reverb on his stam warden when he won that small tournament a while back. The mag warden this Saturday made me stand in Corrupting Pollen. Persistent heal debuffs are just good.

    But why do you consider wearing Durok's to be a duel specific build, and why do you consider building in line with the overall meta of the game to be tailoring my build for the specific situation, i.e. the tourney, implying that the tourney's meta is meaningfully different than that of open world or other spheres of PvP?

    I spent all of this afternoon and evening playing this Durok's build in Cyrodiil (needed Transmute crystals for the next build) with zero changes besides putting cloak on the bar, and it excels in solo 1vX and small group play fighting a diversity of opponents just as well as it does in duels.

    But none of this is new...nor is any of it limited to dueling in my gameplay... I have used Fasalla's in numerous builds beginning in Thieves Guild when it was first introduced. Since its nerf, Durok's has taken its place. My favorite 1vX build from Dark Brotherhood through Homestead actually used Fasalla's destro + Transmutation resto + Valkyn with mist form. I could tank so many people in that build, and despite it having only glyphs and mundus for damage, the huge Fasalla's debuff made my damage stick and made me plenty lethal.
    That's also the build with which I killed German's magicka sorc on Sypher's stream on the Stormhaven beach right after he accepted the prize for winning Sypher's dueling tournament on the very first day of One Tamriel. You can see it over Sypher's shoulder in his past broadcasts from that day. Shields were no problem if I outplayed them, even in a low damage heal debuff build, and if there was any sorc to test that statement, it was German.

    I say Durok's is a duel specific build because, while viable open world, it isn't as punishing when you can't focus a specific target because; LoS, putting yourself in compromised position, etc. It's 100% usable and viable, but it's performance in a duel is significantly more punishing than an open world environment. Obviously in a group its a phenomenal set, no question. That's all I meant by a duel setup, it wasn't meant to imply the build doesn't function other places, just that it performs less efficiently outside of duels and therefore tons of other sets merit consideration over Durok's open world.

    Again, totally viable solo open world, but less appealing in that situation than it is in a duel
    PC NA
    @lexxypwns
    Xbox NA
    GT: Champion Points
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    Mageblade main
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Well, gratz for your victory.
    =)

    As you said, and from my personal experience, Shadowrend is not OP. And that is why I'm questioning those rules.
    I take it it wasn't banned but counted as a pet, of which one was allowed... That is somewhat reasonable, although I must add that pet sorcs in duels are OP, not that particular set. It's a weird rule that seems to dance around the actual problem.

    What was regulated in terms of magDK, if I may ask?

    We identify these primary two issues with pet builds:
    1. Players can line of sight behind them because tab targeting barely works.
    2. They continue attacking the opponent even when you are forced to go defensive.

    We believe that these issues together decrease competitiveness and counterplay in fights. Instead of outright banning pets, though, we compromised at limiting players to just one pet.

    We actually held guild-wide deliberation on the rules all last week, and we decided unanimously to include Shadowrend as a "pet" on the grounds that it:
    1. Procs Necropotence, which is a strong set for both offense and defense. I used Necropotence myself, as did the magicka warden. That's 2x Necro in the finals, AND 2x defiles in the finals! (Durok's + Corrupting Pollen) haha
    2. Continues attacking the opponent when you are forced to go defenive.
    3. Cannot be cced or killed, limiting counterplay.
    4. Applies a long duration Maim. We consider this to limit counterplay because the Maim persists from when the pet unsummons until it is back up again, able to attack again to maintain 100% uptime.

    Fighting a pet sorc with a twilight/scamp plus Shadowrend is two npcs beating on you even if the sorc does nothing but shield spam, and the Shadowrend lowers your damage against those shields at the same time. Fighting a warden with the bear plus Shadowrend is even more of a nightmare because the bear deals so much more damage and is essentially unkillable (resummons itself, warden recasting the bear can't be interrupted).

    I hope this clears up our thought process.
    Kena
    Legion XIII
    Excellence without elitism
    Premier small scale PvP

    Legend
    NA/PC's original dueling and PvP community guild
    Now NA/PC's dueling, BGs, small scale, GvG, and general PvP community. We float just under 500 members. Mail me in game for an invite.


    Apex Predator.

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  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Rianai wrote: »
    Shadowrend wasn't banned, but it counted as pet for the 1 pet only rule and TK was banned because it is bugged (doesn't get reduced by defile).
    No it was banned @NightbladeMechanics mentioned that since you can't target the pet its not allowed.Since their no counterplay against it.

    What silly justification is that?
    You can purge the Maim comfortably. Left is a bit damage increase, bohoo. Is Slimecraw also banned? Skoria? Mines? Purge?

    That's why you can't take duels seriously. Just a set of arbitrary rules or a lot of cheese.
    Meh, to each his/her own...

    Shadowrend is more dps than Skoria, it reapplies its debuff on its next hit following a purge, not everyone has a purge like you, and its debuff's long duration gives it 100% uptime in a fight. Note that Maim is a powerful debuff which most classes were deliberately designed around not having ready access to.

    It isn't op, but it is plenty strong enough to warrant categorization as a pet, especially since it procs Necropotence.

    The main qualification we looked for when defining "pets" was continuing to attack the enemy while you were on defense. That reduces counterplay and competitiveness in the fight.

    To claim that Shadowrend isn't extremely strong and worth regulating -- note, not banning outright -- or to call any and all rules for dueling tournaments "arbitrary" because they're player-created is to simply be uninformed or biased.

    Daus wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    Turns out OP was correct. Magicka Nightblade is top dog. :smiley:

    GTFO, Kena is top... Magblade just rewards the skilled and learned while punishing the weak and stupid. As ANY class should be, but right now it seems only nightblade is that way

    From what I observed he was the superior player in terms of skill. I believe you're correct. Nightblades have the highest ceiling, and the lowest floor.

    Stamblades have a low floor and high cap. Destro mageblade has a low floor and a used to have a high cap. It's become sooooo strong and forgiving since Morrowind, though. Go play melee mageblade against good opponents and tell me where you think its floor lies in comparison.

    (I get mildly triggered when the two are considered equal these days. lol)

    KingJ wrote: »
    Thogard wrote: »
    Was the winner running a minor defile poison?
    Poisons were banned He was running Duroks bane I believe on his magblade.

    Correct. :) Befoul is overtuned and dominates the meta unfortunately, but strong healing classes stalemate fights hardcore without it.

    I'm not of the opinion that Durok's itself is op since you give up an entire gear set worth of bonuses for some tankiness and the defile (compared to Warden's Corrupting Pollen for example), but it is a very strong set right now. To clarify, there are many very strong sets right now. In fact, I've already unequipped Durok's and moved on to something which I consider stronger.

    ~~

    I'm happy to answer any questions about the nightblade class or dueling mechanics if folks are interested, but claiming that the class is op because you get ganked by incap, fail to catch a fleeing, cloaking nightblade, or one guy wins one tournament using one is pretty narrow thinking. Just saying. Anyways, prior to Saturday, I hadn't participated in organized dueling since the tournaments I won in One Tamriel and Homestead. It's kind of nice to pop back in see what's up. <3 Look forward to more tourneys hosted by Legend!

    It is also worth noting that your specific performance in this tournament was tied not just to your skill, but the very powerful, duel specific build you ran. I’m not criticizing you for tailoring a build specifically to the situation you were in, I’m just pointing out that taking any view on class balance based on these results is short sighted. Would a stamden in 5 Duroks 2 Malu 5 7th have performed significantly different? Prolly not, same for a magplar in duroks+damage set, etc. What clenched the tournament was the fact that you correctly identified melee, heal based, builds as being your biggest potential downfall and took care to soft counter these builds.

    Again, not being critical of you at all, just hoping people will realize that a NB winning a major tourney isn’t proof of it overperforming.

    I agree. I could not have won with just any build of course, and the results here reflect more on CP and healing balance than on class balance. Kodi used Reverb on his stam warden when he won that small tournament a while back. The mag warden this Saturday made me stand in Corrupting Pollen. Persistent heal debuffs are just good.

    But why do you consider wearing Durok's to be a duel specific build, and why do you consider building in line with the overall meta of the game to be tailoring my build for the specific situation, i.e. the tourney, implying that the tourney's meta is meaningfully different than that of open world or other spheres of PvP?

    I spent all of this afternoon and evening playing this Durok's build in Cyrodiil (needed Transmute crystals for the next build) with zero changes besides putting cloak on the bar, and it excels in solo 1vX and small group play fighting a diversity of opponents just as well as it does in duels.

    But none of this is new...nor is any of it limited to dueling in my gameplay... I have used Fasalla's in numerous builds beginning in Thieves Guild when it was first introduced. Since its nerf, Durok's has taken its place. My favorite 1vX build from Dark Brotherhood through Homestead actually used Fasalla's destro + Transmutation resto + Valkyn with mist form. I could tank so many people in that build, and despite it having only glyphs and mundus for damage, the huge Fasalla's debuff made my damage stick and made me plenty lethal.
    That's also the build with which I killed German's magicka sorc on Sypher's stream on the Stormhaven beach right after he accepted the prize for winning Sypher's dueling tournament on the very first day of One Tamriel. You can see it over Sypher's shoulder in his past broadcasts from that day. Shields were no problem if I outplayed them, even in a low damage heal debuff build, and if there was any sorc to test that statement, it was German.

    I say Durok's is a duel specific build because, while viable open world, it isn't as punishing when you can't focus a specific target because; LoS, putting yourself in compromised position, etc. It's 100% usable and viable, but it's performance in a duel is significantly more punishing than an open world environment. Obviously in a group its a phenomenal set, no question. That's all I meant by a duel setup, it wasn't meant to imply the build doesn't function other places, just that it performs less efficiently outside of duels and therefore tons of other sets merit consideration over Durok's open world.

    Again, totally viable solo open world, but less appealing in that situation than it is in a duel

    Hmmm. I'd argue that any set is "more punishing in a duel than in an open world environment" because the player can be more punishing when only 1v1ing, and I've not encountered any limitations while using heal debuff sets linked to LoS, overextending to pressure an opponent, trying to focus a specific person down, etc. I've enjoyed using heal debuff sets in open world 1vX for the same reason a stamina DK or warden slots snb and Reverb -- you trade damage in order to get tankier and prevent targets from recovering.

    Edit: if anything, I enjoy persistent heal debuff sets because I can LOS and take a breather to recover, but my debuffs impair multiple opponents from recovering any damage I've put on them while I'm around the corner LOSing or channeling a heavy attack. I find them more reliable than stacking damage because 1) it's really hard to one shot the average player outright...that takes serious damage these days, and one sideways healing ward can thwart your whole combo, 2) they are generally reliant on expensive ultis, creating long windows of low threat, and 3) full damage builds are generally frail, reliant on harness, and unable to hold their ground against the numbers I like to fight.
    Edited by NightbladeMechanics on November 28, 2017 4:45AM
    Kena
    Legion XIII
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  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please come to Xbox. I read all these posts and just wish I could at least watch
    Gamer tag: ShenronNacht NA Xbox One
    1100+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er
    Shepherd of Rot - Stamina Necromancer BG Archer - No Gank
  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Rianai wrote: »
    Shadowrend wasn't banned, but it counted as pet for the 1 pet only rule and TK was banned because it is bugged (doesn't get reduced by defile).
    No it was banned @NightbladeMechanics mentioned that since you can't target the pet its not allowed.Since their no counterplay against it.

    What silly justification is that?
    You can purge the Maim comfortably. Left is a bit damage increase, bohoo. Is Slimecraw also banned? Skoria? Mines? Purge?

    That's why you can't take duels seriously. Just a set of arbitrary rules or a lot of cheese.
    Meh, to each his/her own...

    Shadowrend is more dps than Skoria, it reapplies its debuff on its next hit following a purge, not everyone has a purge like you, and its debuff's long duration gives it 100% uptime in a fight. Note that Maim is a powerful debuff which most classes were deliberately designed around not having ready access to.

    It isn't op, but it is plenty strong enough to warrant categorization as a pet, especially since it procs Necropotence.

    The main qualification we looked for when defining "pets" was continuing to attack the enemy while you were on defense. That reduces counterplay and competitiveness in the fight.

    To claim that Shadowrend isn't extremely strong and worth regulating -- note, not banning outright -- or to call any and all rules for dueling tournaments "arbitrary" because they're player-created is to simply be uninformed or biased.

    Daus wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    Turns out OP was correct. Magicka Nightblade is top dog. :smiley:

    GTFO, Kena is top... Magblade just rewards the skilled and learned while punishing the weak and stupid. As ANY class should be, but right now it seems only nightblade is that way

    From what I observed he was the superior player in terms of skill. I believe you're correct. Nightblades have the highest ceiling, and the lowest floor.

    Stamblades have a low floor and high cap. Destro mageblade has a low floor and a used to have a high cap. It's become sooooo strong and forgiving since Morrowind, though. Go play melee mageblade against good opponents and tell me where you think its floor lies in comparison.

    (I get mildly triggered when the two are considered equal these days. lol)

    KingJ wrote: »
    Thogard wrote: »
    Was the winner running a minor defile poison?
    Poisons were banned He was running Duroks bane I believe on his magblade.

    Correct. :) Befoul is overtuned and dominates the meta unfortunately, but strong healing classes stalemate fights hardcore without it.

    I'm not of the opinion that Durok's itself is op since you give up an entire gear set worth of bonuses for some tankiness and the defile (compared to Warden's Corrupting Pollen for example), but it is a very strong set right now. To clarify, there are many very strong sets right now. In fact, I've already unequipped Durok's and moved on to something which I consider stronger.

    ~~

    I'm happy to answer any questions about the nightblade class or dueling mechanics if folks are interested, but claiming that the class is op because you get ganked by incap, fail to catch a fleeing, cloaking nightblade, or one guy wins one tournament using one is pretty narrow thinking. Just saying. Anyways, prior to Saturday, I hadn't participated in organized dueling since the tournaments I won in One Tamriel and Homestead. It's kind of nice to pop back in see what's up. <3 Look forward to more tourneys hosted by Legend!

    It is also worth noting that your specific performance in this tournament was tied not just to your skill, but the very powerful, duel specific build you ran. I’m not criticizing you for tailoring a build specifically to the situation you were in, I’m just pointing out that taking any view on class balance based on these results is short sighted. Would a stamden in 5 Duroks 2 Malu 5 7th have performed significantly different? Prolly not, same for a magplar in duroks+damage set, etc. What clenched the tournament was the fact that you correctly identified melee, heal based, builds as being your biggest potential downfall and took care to soft counter these builds.

    Again, not being critical of you at all, just hoping people will realize that a NB winning a major tourney isn’t proof of it overperforming.

    I agree. I could not have won with just any build of course, and the results here reflect more on CP and healing balance than on class balance. Kodi used Reverb on his stam warden when he won that small tournament a while back. The mag warden this Saturday made me stand in Corrupting Pollen. Persistent heal debuffs are just good.

    But why do you consider wearing Durok's to be a duel specific build, and why do you consider building in line with the overall meta of the game to be tailoring my build for the specific situation, i.e. the tourney, implying that the tourney's meta is meaningfully different than that of open world or other spheres of PvP?

    I spent all of this afternoon and evening playing this Durok's build in Cyrodiil (needed Transmute crystals for the next build) with zero changes besides putting cloak on the bar, and it excels in solo 1vX and small group play fighting a diversity of opponents just as well as it does in duels.

    But none of this is new...nor is any of it limited to dueling in my gameplay... I have used Fasalla's in numerous builds beginning in Thieves Guild when it was first introduced. Since its nerf, Durok's has taken its place. My favorite 1vX build from Dark Brotherhood through Homestead actually used Fasalla's destro + Transmutation resto + Valkyn with mist form. I could tank so many people in that build, and despite it having only glyphs and mundus for damage, the huge Fasalla's debuff made my damage stick and made me plenty lethal.
    That's also the build with which I killed German's magicka sorc on Sypher's stream on the Stormhaven beach right after he accepted the prize for winning Sypher's dueling tournament on the very first day of One Tamriel. You can see it over Sypher's shoulder in his past broadcasts from that day. Shields were no problem if I outplayed them, even in a low damage heal debuff build, and if there was any sorc to test that statement, it was German.

    I say Durok's is a duel specific build because, while viable open world, it isn't as punishing when you can't focus a specific target because; LoS, putting yourself in compromised position, etc. It's 100% usable and viable, but it's performance in a duel is significantly more punishing than an open world environment. Obviously in a group its a phenomenal set, no question. That's all I meant by a duel setup, it wasn't meant to imply the build doesn't function other places, just that it performs less efficiently outside of duels and therefore tons of other sets merit consideration over Durok's open world.

    Again, totally viable solo open world, but less appealing in that situation than it is in a duel

    Hmmm. I'd argue that any set is "more punishing in a duel than in an open world environment" because the player can be more punishing when only 1v1ing, and I've not encountered any limitations while using heal debuff sets linked to LoS, overextending to pressure an opponent, trying to focus a specific person down, etc. I've enjoyed using heal debuff sets in open world 1vX for the same reason a stamina DK or warden slots snb and Reverb -- you trade damage in order to get tankier and prevent targets from recovering.

    Edit: if anything, I enjoy persistent heal debuff sets because I can LOS and take a breather to recover, but my debuffs impair multiple opponents from recovering any damage I've put on them while I'm around the corner LOSing or channeling a heavy attack. I find them more reliable than stacking damage because 1) it's really hard to one shot the average player outright...that takes serious damage these days, and one sideways healing ward can thwart your whole combo, 2) they are generally reliant on expensive ultis, creating long windows of low threat, and 3) full damage builds are generally frail, reliant on harness, and unable to hold their ground against the numbers I like to fight.

    Simply in the spirit of debate, sets that perform better outside of duels than in duels: trans, spc, pa, gossamer, vicious death, worm cult, etc.

    I’m now knocking duroks, but the more opponents you add the more likely someone’s got a way to remove the heal debuff. In a duel, purging the debuff at best gets you a stalemate. In open world, purging the debuff off 5 people allows them to soft counter.
    PC NA
    @lexxypwns
    Xbox NA
    GT: Champion Points
    GT: Crown Crates

    Mageblade main
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    KingJ wrote: »
    Rianai wrote: »
    Shadowrend wasn't banned, but it counted as pet for the 1 pet only rule and TK was banned because it is bugged (doesn't get reduced by defile).
    No it was banned @NightbladeMechanics mentioned that since you can't target the pet its not allowed.Since their no counterplay against it.

    What silly justification is that?
    You can purge the Maim comfortably. Left is a bit damage increase, bohoo. Is Slimecraw also banned? Skoria? Mines? Purge?

    That's why you can't take duels seriously. Just a set of arbitrary rules or a lot of cheese.
    Meh, to each his/her own...

    Shadowrend is more dps than Skoria, it reapplies its debuff on its next hit following a purge, not everyone has a purge like you, and its debuff's long duration gives it 100% uptime in a fight. Note that Maim is a powerful debuff which most classes were deliberately designed around not having ready access to.

    It isn't op, but it is plenty strong enough to warrant categorization as a pet, especially since it procs Necropotence.

    The main qualification we looked for when defining "pets" was continuing to attack the enemy while you were on defense. That reduces counterplay and competitiveness in the fight.

    To claim that Shadowrend isn't extremely strong and worth regulating -- note, not banning outright -- or to call any and all rules for dueling tournaments "arbitrary" because they're player-created is to simply be uninformed or biased.

    Daus wrote: »
    Hollery wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    Turns out OP was correct. Magicka Nightblade is top dog. :smiley:

    GTFO, Kena is top... Magblade just rewards the skilled and learned while punishing the weak and stupid. As ANY class should be, but right now it seems only nightblade is that way

    From what I observed he was the superior player in terms of skill. I believe you're correct. Nightblades have the highest ceiling, and the lowest floor.

    Stamblades have a low floor and high cap. Destro mageblade has a low floor and a used to have a high cap. It's become sooooo strong and forgiving since Morrowind, though. Go play melee mageblade against good opponents and tell me where you think its floor lies in comparison.

    (I get mildly triggered when the two are considered equal these days. lol)

    KingJ wrote: »
    Thogard wrote: »
    Was the winner running a minor defile poison?
    Poisons were banned He was running Duroks bane I believe on his magblade.

    Correct. :) Befoul is overtuned and dominates the meta unfortunately, but strong healing classes stalemate fights hardcore without it.

    I'm not of the opinion that Durok's itself is op since you give up an entire gear set worth of bonuses for some tankiness and the defile (compared to Warden's Corrupting Pollen for example), but it is a very strong set right now. To clarify, there are many very strong sets right now. In fact, I've already unequipped Durok's and moved on to something which I consider stronger.

    ~~

    I'm happy to answer any questions about the nightblade class or dueling mechanics if folks are interested, but claiming that the class is op because you get ganked by incap, fail to catch a fleeing, cloaking nightblade, or one guy wins one tournament using one is pretty narrow thinking. Just saying. Anyways, prior to Saturday, I hadn't participated in organized dueling since the tournaments I won in One Tamriel and Homestead. It's kind of nice to pop back in see what's up. <3 Look forward to more tourneys hosted by Legend!

    It is also worth noting that your specific performance in this tournament was tied not just to your skill, but the very powerful, duel specific build you ran. I’m not criticizing you for tailoring a build specifically to the situation you were in, I’m just pointing out that taking any view on class balance based on these results is short sighted. Would a stamden in 5 Duroks 2 Malu 5 7th have performed significantly different? Prolly not, same for a magplar in duroks+damage set, etc. What clenched the tournament was the fact that you correctly identified melee, heal based, builds as being your biggest potential downfall and took care to soft counter these builds.

    Again, not being critical of you at all, just hoping people will realize that a NB winning a major tourney isn’t proof of it overperforming.

    I agree. I could not have won with just any build of course, and the results here reflect more on CP and healing balance than on class balance. Kodi used Reverb on his stam warden when he won that small tournament a while back. The mag warden this Saturday made me stand in Corrupting Pollen. Persistent heal debuffs are just good.

    But why do you consider wearing Durok's to be a duel specific build, and why do you consider building in line with the overall meta of the game to be tailoring my build for the specific situation, i.e. the tourney, implying that the tourney's meta is meaningfully different than that of open world or other spheres of PvP?

    I spent all of this afternoon and evening playing this Durok's build in Cyrodiil (needed Transmute crystals for the next build) with zero changes besides putting cloak on the bar, and it excels in solo 1vX and small group play fighting a diversity of opponents just as well as it does in duels.

    But none of this is new...nor is any of it limited to dueling in my gameplay... I have used Fasalla's in numerous builds beginning in Thieves Guild when it was first introduced. Since its nerf, Durok's has taken its place. My favorite 1vX build from Dark Brotherhood through Homestead actually used Fasalla's destro + Transmutation resto + Valkyn with mist form. I could tank so many people in that build, and despite it having only glyphs and mundus for damage, the huge Fasalla's debuff made my damage stick and made me plenty lethal.
    That's also the build with which I killed German's magicka sorc on Sypher's stream on the Stormhaven beach right after he accepted the prize for winning Sypher's dueling tournament on the very first day of One Tamriel. You can see it over Sypher's shoulder in his past broadcasts from that day. Shields were no problem if I outplayed them, even in a low damage heal debuff build, and if there was any sorc to test that statement, it was German.

    I say Durok's is a duel specific build because, while viable open world, it isn't as punishing when you can't focus a specific target because; LoS, putting yourself in compromised position, etc. It's 100% usable and viable, but it's performance in a duel is significantly more punishing than an open world environment. Obviously in a group its a phenomenal set, no question. That's all I meant by a duel setup, it wasn't meant to imply the build doesn't function other places, just that it performs less efficiently outside of duels and therefore tons of other sets merit consideration over Durok's open world.

    Again, totally viable solo open world, but less appealing in that situation than it is in a duel

    Hmmm. I'd argue that any set is "more punishing in a duel than in an open world environment" because the player can be more punishing when only 1v1ing, and I've not encountered any limitations while using heal debuff sets linked to LoS, overextending to pressure an opponent, trying to focus a specific person down, etc. I've enjoyed using heal debuff sets in open world 1vX for the same reason a stamina DK or warden slots snb and Reverb -- you trade damage in order to get tankier and prevent targets from recovering.

    Edit: if anything, I enjoy persistent heal debuff sets because I can LOS and take a breather to recover, but my debuffs impair multiple opponents from recovering any damage I've put on them while I'm around the corner LOSing or channeling a heavy attack. I find them more reliable than stacking damage because 1) it's really hard to one shot the average player outright...that takes serious damage these days, and one sideways healing ward can thwart your whole combo, 2) they are generally reliant on expensive ultis, creating long windows of low threat, and 3) full damage builds are generally frail, reliant on harness, and unable to hold their ground against the numbers I like to fight.

    Simply in the spirit of debate, sets that perform better outside of duels than in duels: trans, spc, pa, gossamer, vicious death, worm cult, etc.

    I’m now knocking duroks, but the more opponents you add the more likely someone’s got a way to remove the heal debuff. In a duel, purging the debuff at best gets you a stalemate. In open world, purging the debuff off 5 people allows them to soft counter.

    Do you consider Riposte less effective against groups too, then? They work the same way.

    I consider Durok’s and Riposte effectively unpurgeable. They reapply their debuffs on the next instance of damage following a purge. Standing in a Corrupting Pollen works the same way come to think of it. Theyre like diseases that just stick to everyone. They scale up with numbers, not down, and Maim and Defile are both really good effects.

    Many other group sets have their uses in solo and dueling builds, too. I still believe that heavy Julianos + Trans is the best destro mageblade dueling build. Spc back bar is great on harness magicka mageblade, with nearly 80% uptime. I ran Sanctuary + heavy Impreg + Master staves in a solo bruiser open world build during Morrowind with good results, but Juli + Trans/Riposte + Malu outperformed it imo. I got a lucky sharpened fire Gossamer staff early in SotH patch that I ran with a Trans resto for a while. That’s actually the closest ancestor to my Riposte + Trans build that I picked up in Morrowind. It’s in one of my videos from back then. Imagine a magplar or mdk in Goss + Trans + Shadowrend now. That’s tripling up on some very powerful defensive buffs and a ton of regen. Why don’t people think to run that? Lmfao

    They’re not always best in slot, but they can be in certain builds. They’re good sets!
    Kena
    Legion XIII
    Excellence without elitism
    Premier small scale PvP

    Legend
    NA/PC's original dueling and PvP community guild
    Now NA/PC's dueling, BGs, small scale, GvG, and general PvP community. We float just under 500 members. Mail me in game for an invite.


    Apex Predator.

    Here's a great thread collecting community ideas for PvP updates.

    [MEGATHREAD] Feedback Threads for Class Reps

    Class Representative Feedback Discords:
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  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Please come to Xbox. I read all these posts and just wish I could at least watch

    Sorry, but I feel like I’d be so gimped with a controller... :/ I feel like it would limit my dexterity, wouldn’t it?
    Kena
    Legion XIII
    Excellence without elitism
    Premier small scale PvP

    Legend
    NA/PC's original dueling and PvP community guild
    Now NA/PC's dueling, BGs, small scale, GvG, and general PvP community. We float just under 500 members. Mail me in game for an invite.


    Apex Predator.

    Here's a great thread collecting community ideas for PvP updates.

    [MEGATHREAD] Feedback Threads for Class Reps

    Class Representative Feedback Discords:
    Nightblade Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/t2Xhnu6

    Dragonknight Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/UHtZhz8

    Sorcerer Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/e3QkCS8

    Templar Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/WvVuSw7

    Warden Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/sTFY4ys

    General Healing Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/6CmzBFb

    TONKS!
    https://discord.gg/DRNYd39

    Werewolf Discussion:
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    Vampire Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/yfzck8Q
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please come to Xbox. I read all these posts and just wish I could at least watch

    Sorry, but I feel like I’d be so gimped with a controller... :/ I feel like it would limit my dexterity, wouldn’t it?

    It would.

    But not by much
    Edited by Waffennacht on November 28, 2017 6:12AM
    Gamer tag: ShenronNacht NA Xbox One
    1100+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er
    Shepherd of Rot - Stamina Necromancer BG Archer - No Gank
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Please come to Xbox. I read all these posts and just wish I could at least watch

    Sorry, but I feel like I’d be so gimped with a controller... :/ I feel like it would limit my dexterity, wouldn’t it?

    It would.

    But not by much

    I have known really good pc players who use a controller. I’ve always been a pc gamer with keyboard and mouse though.
    Kena
    Legion XIII
    Excellence without elitism
    Premier small scale PvP

    Legend
    NA/PC's original dueling and PvP community guild
    Now NA/PC's dueling, BGs, small scale, GvG, and general PvP community. We float just under 500 members. Mail me in game for an invite.


    Apex Predator.

    Here's a great thread collecting community ideas for PvP updates.

    [MEGATHREAD] Feedback Threads for Class Reps

    Class Representative Feedback Discords:
    Nightblade Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/t2Xhnu6

    Dragonknight Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/UHtZhz8

    Sorcerer Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/e3QkCS8

    Templar Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/WvVuSw7

    Warden Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/sTFY4ys

    General Healing Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/6CmzBFb

    TONKS!
    https://discord.gg/DRNYd39

    Werewolf Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/aDEx2ev

    Vampire Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/yfzck8Q
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @NightbladeMechanics

    Thanks for clearing it up, man!
    =)

    Here are my thoughts on that:

    I think pet sorcs are OP in duels because of your mentioned reasons and because their weakness, mobility, is not given in duels. The same actually goes for magDKs, IMO. So, to be fair, you had to restrict both. And what about bleed builds or suchlike?

    This just opens Pandora's Box if you wanna be consequent. Who decides what is "fair"? The players, agreeing on their moral code? The host?

    And then you're building around those rules? What if the two best players around are actually at best on a dual pet sorc? They never had the chance to show it.


    Look, don't get me wrong. If you all agreed to the rules, that's how it goes. And it's totally fine. I'm also not in the slightest doubting any participant's abilities, I would've probably been crushed in round one!
    xD

    It's just that I think what is in the game should be used to assure maximum... realism. As in, realistic to the game that is played live.
    The moment you, the player, sets rules, you risk alienating aspects.

    I know this would mean very boring, similar setups on all players. I'm avidly following Dark Souls tournaments and you see some weapons over and over again, but every now and then something original mixed into it.
    It's cool that you try to work around such stale tournaments. It's just not my cup of tea, has not been in any games for me. And that's why I typically avoid the duel hype.
    *ducks for cover*
    (^~^)
  • Derra
    Derra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please come to Xbox. I read all these posts and just wish I could at least watch

    Sorry, but I feel like I’d be so gimped with a controller... :/ I feel like it would limit my dexterity, wouldn’t it?

    It would.

    But not by much

    Depends on "socialisation" in terms of gaming. I´ve been playing games with mouse and keyboard for over 20 years now. The frist time i held a controller i was already 19. I managed to play for half an hour but the input device felt so unresponsive and inadequate that i have never touched consoles or controllers again after that.
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    @NightbladeMechanics

    Thanks for clearing it up, man!
    =)

    Here are my thoughts on that:

    I think pet sorcs are OP in duels because of your mentioned reasons and because their weakness, mobility, is not given in duels. The same actually goes for magDKs, IMO. So, to be fair, you had to restrict both. And what about bleed builds or suchlike?

    This just opens Pandora's Box if you wanna be consequent. Who decides what is "fair"? The players, agreeing on their moral code? The host?

    And then you're building around those rules? What if the two best players around are actually at best on a dual pet sorc? They never had the chance to show it.


    Look, don't get me wrong. If you all agreed to the rules, that's how it goes. And it's totally fine. I'm also not in the slightest doubting any participant's abilities, I would've probably been crushed in round one!
    xD

    It's just that I think what is in the game should be used to assure maximum... realism. As in, realistic to the game that is played live.
    The moment you, the player, sets rules, you risk alienating aspects.

    I know this would mean very boring, similar setups on all players. I'm avidly following Dark Souls tournaments and you see some weapons over and over again, but every now and then something original mixed into it.
    It's cool that you try to work around such stale tournaments. It's just not my cup of tea, has not been in any games for me. And that's why I typically avoid the duel hype.
    *ducks for cover*
    (^~^)

    We did not restrict mdks or bleeds or attempt to handicap classes whose open world weakness is intended to be mobility. Players were expected to account for those classes’ strengths and target other weaknesses via their own builds coming into the tournament.

    Guildies asked for a lot of rules. I made an explicit point to instate as few as possible in order to avoid the slippery slope that you describe.
    Kena
    Legion XIII
    Excellence without elitism
    Premier small scale PvP

    Legend
    NA/PC's original dueling and PvP community guild
    Now NA/PC's dueling, BGs, small scale, GvG, and general PvP community. We float just under 500 members. Mail me in game for an invite.


    Apex Predator.

    Here's a great thread collecting community ideas for PvP updates.

    [MEGATHREAD] Feedback Threads for Class Reps

    Class Representative Feedback Discords:
    Nightblade Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/t2Xhnu6

    Dragonknight Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/UHtZhz8

    Sorcerer Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/e3QkCS8

    Templar Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/WvVuSw7

    Warden Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/sTFY4ys

    General Healing Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/6CmzBFb

    TONKS!
    https://discord.gg/DRNYd39

    Werewolf Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/aDEx2ev

    Vampire Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/yfzck8Q
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    @NightbladeMechanics

    Thanks for clearing it up, man!
    =)

    Here are my thoughts on that:

    I think pet sorcs are OP in duels because of your mentioned reasons and because their weakness, mobility, is not given in duels. The same actually goes for magDKs, IMO. So, to be fair, you had to restrict both. And what about bleed builds or suchlike?

    This just opens Pandora's Box if you wanna be consequent. Who decides what is "fair"? The players, agreeing on their moral code? The host?

    And then you're building around those rules? What if the two best players around are actually at best on a dual pet sorc? They never had the chance to show it.


    Look, don't get me wrong. If you all agreed to the rules, that's how it goes. And it's totally fine. I'm also not in the slightest doubting any participant's abilities, I would've probably been crushed in round one!
    xD

    It's just that I think what is in the game should be used to assure maximum... realism. As in, realistic to the game that is played live.
    The moment you, the player, sets rules, you risk alienating aspects.

    I know this would mean very boring, similar setups on all players. I'm avidly following Dark Souls tournaments and you see some weapons over and over again, but every now and then something original mixed into it.
    It's cool that you try to work around such stale tournaments. It's just not my cup of tea, has not been in any games for me. And that's why I typically avoid the duel hype.
    *ducks for cover*
    (^~^)

    We did not restrict mdks or bleeds or attempt to handicap classes whose open world weakness is intended to be mobility. Players were expected to account for those classes’ strengths and target other weaknesses via their own builds coming into the tournament.

    Guildies asked for a lot of rules. I made an explicit point to instate as few as possible in order to avoid the slippery slope that you describe.

    Which brings me to another point, builds.
    I can hear Waffennacht loading the gun already, but I just refuse to accept how important builds are in duels. Positioning, terrain, combat evaluation, superior skill execution... Those things take a bit of a back seat when builds become so important.

    I personally like, in any game, when people compete with more or less the same, um, assets. It makes combat skill more important.
    Sure, crafting a build is also a skill, I'm not doubting that. It's just not what I would prioritize. But, I know, opinions on this matter may vary. And that's totally okay.

    Would you please put that gun down, Waffennacht?
    ._.
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    @NightbladeMechanics

    Thanks for clearing it up, man!
    =)

    Here are my thoughts on that:

    I think pet sorcs are OP in duels because of your mentioned reasons and because their weakness, mobility, is not given in duels. The same actually goes for magDKs, IMO. So, to be fair, you had to restrict both. And what about bleed builds or suchlike?

    This just opens Pandora's Box if you wanna be consequent. Who decides what is "fair"? The players, agreeing on their moral code? The host?

    And then you're building around those rules? What if the two best players around are actually at best on a dual pet sorc? They never had the chance to show it.


    Look, don't get me wrong. If you all agreed to the rules, that's how it goes. And it's totally fine. I'm also not in the slightest doubting any participant's abilities, I would've probably been crushed in round one!
    xD

    It's just that I think what is in the game should be used to assure maximum... realism. As in, realistic to the game that is played live.
    The moment you, the player, sets rules, you risk alienating aspects.

    I know this would mean very boring, similar setups on all players. I'm avidly following Dark Souls tournaments and you see some weapons over and over again, but every now and then something original mixed into it.
    It's cool that you try to work around such stale tournaments. It's just not my cup of tea, has not been in any games for me. And that's why I typically avoid the duel hype.
    *ducks for cover*
    (^~^)

    We did not restrict mdks or bleeds or attempt to handicap classes whose open world weakness is intended to be mobility. Players were expected to account for those classes’ strengths and target other weaknesses via their own builds coming into the tournament.

    Guildies asked for a lot of rules. I made an explicit point to instate as few as possible in order to avoid the slippery slope that you describe.

    Which brings me to another point, builds.
    I can hear Waffennacht loading the gun already, but I just refuse to accept how important builds are in duels. Positioning, terrain, combat evaluation, superior skill execution... Those things take a bit of a back seat when builds become so important.

    I personally like, in any game, when people compete with more or less the same, um, assets. It makes combat skill more important.
    Sure, crafting a build is also a skill, I'm not doubting that. It's just not what I would prioritize. But, I know, opinions on this matter may vary. And that's totally okay.

    Would you please put that gun down, Waffennacht?
    ._.

    I agree. This is why open world 1vX has always been and remains much more difficult and skillful than dueling, and this is why I have always been primarily an open world solo roamer. Dueling is dominated by builds and class matchup counters, but dueling is still fun and a good way to improve.
    Kena
    Legion XIII
    Excellence without elitism
    Premier small scale PvP

    Legend
    NA/PC's original dueling and PvP community guild
    Now NA/PC's dueling, BGs, small scale, GvG, and general PvP community. We float just under 500 members. Mail me in game for an invite.


    Apex Predator.

    Here's a great thread collecting community ideas for PvP updates.

    [MEGATHREAD] Feedback Threads for Class Reps

    Class Representative Feedback Discords:
    Nightblade Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/t2Xhnu6

    Dragonknight Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/UHtZhz8

    Sorcerer Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/e3QkCS8

    Templar Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/WvVuSw7

    Warden Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/sTFY4ys

    General Healing Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/6CmzBFb

    TONKS!
    https://discord.gg/DRNYd39

    Werewolf Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/aDEx2ev

    Vampire Discussion:
    https://discord.gg/yfzck8Q
  • Raudgrani
    Raudgrani
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I hate chasing them. But if they come to you and fail their first attempt, they are way easier to kill than most. Comparable to a sorc in text chat or checking their map. LOL
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    @NightbladeMechanics

    Thanks for clearing it up, man!
    =)

    Here are my thoughts on that:

    I think pet sorcs are OP in duels because of your mentioned reasons and because their weakness, mobility, is not given in duels. The same actually goes for magDKs, IMO. So, to be fair, you had to restrict both. And what about bleed builds or suchlike?

    This just opens Pandora's Box if you wanna be consequent. Who decides what is "fair"? The players, agreeing on their moral code? The host?

    And then you're building around those rules? What if the two best players around are actually at best on a dual pet sorc? They never had the chance to show it.


    Look, don't get me wrong. If you all agreed to the rules, that's how it goes. And it's totally fine. I'm also not in the slightest doubting any participant's abilities, I would've probably been crushed in round one!
    xD

    It's just that I think what is in the game should be used to assure maximum... realism. As in, realistic to the game that is played live.
    The moment you, the player, sets rules, you risk alienating aspects.

    I know this would mean very boring, similar setups on all players. I'm avidly following Dark Souls tournaments and you see some weapons over and over again, but every now and then something original mixed into it.
    It's cool that you try to work around such stale tournaments. It's just not my cup of tea, has not been in any games for me. And that's why I typically avoid the duel hype.
    *ducks for cover*
    (^~^)

    We did not restrict mdks or bleeds or attempt to handicap classes whose open world weakness is intended to be mobility. Players were expected to account for those classes’ strengths and target other weaknesses via their own builds coming into the tournament.

    Guildies asked for a lot of rules. I made an explicit point to instate as few as possible in order to avoid the slippery slope that you describe.

    Which brings me to another point, builds.
    I can hear Waffennacht loading the gun already, but I just refuse to accept how important builds are in duels. Positioning, terrain, combat evaluation, superior skill execution... Those things take a bit of a back seat when builds become so important.

    I personally like, in any game, when people compete with more or less the same, um, assets. It makes combat skill more important.
    Sure, crafting a build is also a skill, I'm not doubting that. It's just not what I would prioritize. But, I know, opinions on this matter may vary. And that's totally okay.

    Would you please put that gun down, Waffennacht?
    ._.

    I agree. This is why open world 1vX has always been and remains much more difficult and skillful than dueling, and this is why I have always been primarily an open world solo roamer. Dueling is dominated by builds and class matchup counters, but dueling is still fun and a good way to improve.

    Agree.
    d(^.^)
  • ProbablePaul
    ProbablePaul
    ✭✭✭
    Mag, and yes

    Magicka?
    I have dusted off my mNB many times (he's been my main these past 3 years) and have not seen anything special: I die as often as before and cannot kill as much as I'd like to. Running Maiden + Lich + Skoria atm.

    If someone just dusts off a character occasionally, they will not be fully aware or experienced what it can and can't do, how changes have impacted gameplay from patch to patch, and reach its potential.

    I agree with this. It's kind of like an FPS in that sense; once you memorize all of the maps you become one of the better players. Familiarity plays a huge role in performance, and I guess, in the case of ESO pvp, you're navigating varying sequences of abilities. Sequences that shift and change with each update, most of the time. It's true for me that when I come back after taking a break I always have a learning curve as I get back into the swing of things.
    "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself." - George Bernard Shaw

    Retired until performance issues are addressed.
  • Tryxus
    Tryxus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mag, and yes

    Magicka?
    I have dusted off my mNB many times (he's been my main these past 3 years) and have not seen anything special: I die as often as before and cannot kill as much as I'd like to. Running Maiden + Lich + Skoria atm.

    If someone just dusts off a character occasionally, they will not be fully aware or experienced what it can and can't do, how changes have impacted gameplay from patch to patch, and reach its potential.

    I agree with this. It's kind of like an FPS in that sense; once you memorize all of the maps you become one of the better players. Familiarity plays a huge role in performance, and I guess, in the case of ESO pvp, you're navigating varying sequences of abilities. Sequences that shift and change with each update, most of the time. It's true for me that when I come back after taking a break I always have a learning curve as I get back into the swing of things.

    I mained a MagBlade for 2 yrs, but when Morrowind dropped I rerolled him to MagDen and have been playing almost exclusively with him ever since.

    When CwC arrived, I respecced my StamBlade crafter to MagBlade and decided to give it another try with duels. Turns out I was (still am) very rusty: my gameplay isn't as smooth anymore, gear and skills had to be changed and other classes have been changed too causing me to get into situations I had no idea how to react against.

    I had def lost touch with a class and playstyle that used to be incredibly familiar to me
    "In the Storyteller's name, I stand upon the bones of the world. I drink in the promise and power of nature's law, and breathe out my thanks."
    Tryxus - PC/EU/DC

    CP 1300+

    Tryxus - Breton - Magicka Warden
    Leux Tryxus - Breton - Magicka Templar
    Tryxus Temeslos - Argonian - Magicka Nightblade

    Warden Healer: AR 35 | vDSA - vHRC HM - vAA HM - vSO HM - vMA Flawless - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS +2 - vCR +1 - vBRP - vSS | Grand Master Crafter | 31k+ Achievement Points
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