A nerf tank post because a nb cant oneshoot other player anymore.
WillhelmBlack wrote: »Duels are drawn because of CP and its about to get worse.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »People complained about being one shoted, about too high burst, about being ganked in light and medium armor. What was the reaction of this community to this?
"stop being squishy, invest in health and mitigation, wear heavy. If you build yourself totally for damage you shouldn't complain about being a glass canon."The problem is the insane burst damage and heals everyone has. Almost every can make a that build can nearly one-shot all medium and light armor. The consequence is that everyone run now a extrem tanky heavy armor around so no one is able to instant kill him/her. The same goes for heals, you can get back to full hp within seconds so if you don't almost one-shot your opponent he/she will get back to full hp in the next second.
But building for such tankyness doesn't really come with any big off trade the damage is just alittle lower and the resource management is in heavy armour is actually better than light or medium since you need less heal or protective skills and you get free secondary resources. And even if you build for full tankyness without any damage just stack enough full tank and you can still kill someone but they can not kill you.
(Basically light and medium armor is *** and do not provide enough damage potential to outweigh the tankyness you gain by using heavy armor so you can actually kill them.)
(also blocking is way to strong)
It'd like to adress the three bolded parts.
1) That is exactly the problem. Too high damage when you wear light or medium. Nobody likes to be insta rekt.
2) Not really. If you die to a pure no-dmg tank then that's on you. I may agree on this in duels but 1v1 isn't what this game is designed around.
3) Again, no. You said yourself that damage is quite high in 1). Especially if you wear light and medium as a reciever. So the solution cannot be to increase damage even further.
And it's not "also blocking", it's mainly permablocking. Calcuation for block costs are screwed, permablocking shouldn't be a thing but it still is. Take that away and heavy will not be as "unkillable" as it is. But keep in mind that heavy armor does nothing for your block cost reduction. Sturdy, Jewelry Enchants, CP, weapon skills and passives do but HA does not.
Light and Heavy passives are fine, medium needs some love.
Approach to solve these imbalances could be:
- change block cost calculation so permablocking becomes less of an issue
- bring extreme damage HA sets down a bit without making them useless (ravager, 7th, fury etc.)
- boost defensive capabilites of medium armor (buff/ secondary effect of dodge in 5 medium)
Once these changes are implemented, people will revert to complain about shieldstacking and permadodging.
2. I meant getting zerged by tanks(Was not really clear from my original post). I think most people just build so that no one really can kill them but they still think they can kill anything if they get support of 5-10 more of those tanks.
3. Well, playing in light or medium is still underwhelming compared to heavy. If player would get the feeling they getting more kills in light or medium they would probably change back, but right now there is no real balance between being able to kill and building for tankyness. Personally i would reduce the damage heavy armor can do and healing, they are still tanky but for damage and heals you should go medium or light.
Why is everyone thinking light armor is fine? I really do not see any point except for extrem burst damage to go light. For sustain damage heavy armor is imo superior.
On top of that 6% less damage taken, you get around 5% more healing (after deducing the medium armor increased crit chance & weapon dmg from the value provided by Rapid Mending) and you get atleast 106 more health regen (which btw is almost worth more "healing" than the Rapid Mending passive if your main heal is called Vigor).
It's a combination of a lot of things that makes normal heavy armor users take around 15% (I did this calculation a while ago, can't remember the exact number) less damage/second through heals and mitigation than medium armor. This 15 becomes 30% when we compare to Legion+Fury heavy armor user.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »People complained about being one shoted, about too high burst, about being ganked in light and medium armor. What was the reaction of this community to this?
"stop being squishy, invest in health and mitigation, wear heavy. If you build yourself totally for damage you shouldn't complain about being a glass canon."The problem is the insane burst damage and heals everyone has. Almost every can make a that build can nearly one-shot all medium and light armor. The consequence is that everyone run now a extrem tanky heavy armor around so no one is able to instant kill him/her. The same goes for heals, you can get back to full hp within seconds so if you don't almost one-shot your opponent he/she will get back to full hp in the next second.
But building for such tankyness doesn't really come with any big off trade the damage is just alittle lower and the resource management is in heavy armour is actually better than light or medium since you need less heal or protective skills and you get free secondary resources. And even if you build for full tankyness without any damage just stack enough full tank and you can still kill someone but they can not kill you.
(Basically light and medium armor is *** and do not provide enough damage potential to outweigh the tankyness you gain by using heavy armor so you can actually kill them.)
(also blocking is way to strong)
It'd like to adress the three bolded parts.
1) That is exactly the problem. Too high damage when you wear light or medium. Nobody likes to be insta rekt.
2) Not really. If you die to a pure no-dmg tank then that's on you. I may agree on this in duels but 1v1 isn't what this game is designed around.
3) Again, no. You said yourself that damage is quite high in 1). Especially if you wear light and medium as a reciever. So the solution cannot be to increase damage even further.
And it's not "also blocking", it's mainly permablocking. Calcuation for block costs are screwed, permablocking shouldn't be a thing but it still is. Take that away and heavy will not be as "unkillable" as it is. But keep in mind that heavy armor does nothing for your block cost reduction. Sturdy, Jewelry Enchants, CP, weapon skills and passives do but HA does not.
Light and Heavy passives are fine, medium needs some love.
Approach to solve these imbalances could be:
- change block cost calculation so permablocking becomes less of an issue
- bring extreme damage HA sets down a bit without making them useless (ravager, 7th, fury etc.)
- boost defensive capabilites of medium armor (buff/ secondary effect of dodge in 5 medium)
Once these changes are implemented, people will revert to complain about shieldstacking and permadodging.
A nerf tank post because a nb cant oneshoot other player anymore.
Problem being - with how strong healing in this game is:
If you can´t oneshot a player on a non dot build you will never kill them if they´re not outclassed.
Oneshot meaning a burst combo of usually 3 to 5 abilities.
At a certain point you learn to ignore tanks and keep moving
A nerf tank post because a nb cant oneshoot other player anymore.
A nerf tank post because a nb cant oneshoot other player anymore.
Problem being - with how strong healing in this game is:
If you can´t oneshot a player on a non dot build you will never kill them if they´re not outclassed.
Oneshot meaning a burst combo of usually 3 to 5 abilities.
Some heals are to strong, but whats the differant to shieldstacking on a sorc?
At a certain point you learn to ignore tanks and keep moving
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »If they buff damage even more I finally start turteling up in all heavy.
A nerf tank post because a nb cant oneshoot other player anymore.
Problem being - with how strong healing in this game is:
If you can´t oneshot a player on a non dot build you will never kill them if they´re not outclassed.
Oneshot meaning a burst combo of usually 3 to 5 abilities.
Some heals are to strong, but whats the differant to shieldstacking on a sorc?
Shieldstacking is too strong aswell...
It´s easier to kill a shielding sorc than someone properly utilizing heal + block.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »People complained about being one shoted, about too high burst, about being ganked in light and medium armor. What was the reaction of this community to this?
"stop being squishy, invest in health and mitigation, wear heavy. If you build yourself totally for damage you shouldn't complain about being a glass canon."The problem is the insane burst damage and heals everyone has. Almost every can make a that build can nearly one-shot all medium and light armor. The consequence is that everyone run now a extrem tanky heavy armor around so no one is able to instant kill him/her. The same goes for heals, you can get back to full hp within seconds so if you don't almost one-shot your opponent he/she will get back to full hp in the next second.
But building for such tankyness doesn't really come with any big off trade the damage is just alittle lower and the resource management is in heavy armour is actually better than light or medium since you need less heal or protective skills and you get free secondary resources. And even if you build for full tankyness without any damage just stack enough full tank and you can still kill someone but they can not kill you.
(Basically light and medium armor is *** and do not provide enough damage potential to outweigh the tankyness you gain by using heavy armor so you can actually kill them.)
(also blocking is way to strong)
It'd like to adress the three bolded parts.
1) That is exactly the problem. Too high damage when you wear light or medium. Nobody likes to be insta rekt.
2) Not really. If you die to a pure no-dmg tank then that's on you. I may agree on this in duels but 1v1 isn't what this game is designed around.
3) Again, no. You said yourself that damage is quite high in 1). Especially if you wear light and medium as a reciever. So the solution cannot be to increase damage even further.
And it's not "also blocking", it's mainly permablocking. Calcuation for block costs are screwed, permablocking shouldn't be a thing but it still is. Take that away and heavy will not be as "unkillable" as it is. But keep in mind that heavy armor does nothing for your block cost reduction. Sturdy, Jewelry Enchants, CP, weapon skills and passives do but HA does not.
Light and Heavy passives are fine, medium needs some love.
Approach to solve these imbalances could be:
- change block cost calculation so permablocking becomes less of an issue
- bring extreme damage HA sets down a bit without making them useless (ravager, 7th, fury etc.)
- boost defensive capabilites of medium armor (buff/ secondary effect of dodge in 5 medium)
Once these changes are implemented, people will revert to complain about shieldstacking and permadodging.
2. I meant getting zerged by tanks(Was not really clear from my original post). I think most people just build so that no one really can kill them but they still think they can kill anything if they get support of 5-10 more of those tanks.
3. Well, playing in light or medium is still underwhelming compared to heavy. If player would get the feeling they getting more kills in light or medium they would probably change back, but right now there is no real balance between being able to kill and building for tankyness. Personally i would reduce the damage heavy armor can do and healing, they are still tanky but for damage and heals you should go medium or light.
Why is everyone thinking light armor is fine? I really do not see any point except for extrem burst damage to go light. For sustain damage heavy armor is imo superior.
3. Removing healing boni and weapon/spell dmg boni would result in a blatant drop of survivability and in reduced offense. So an rather big nerf that is especially unnecessary to PvE Tanks.
If you strip them of Rapid Mending's healing bonus the result is clear. But selfheals will be further reduced by the now smaller weapon/ spell dmg stats.
Right now the mitigation difference between the three 5/1/1 options is not as big as you expect. Numbers for 5/1/1
L: 11.656 spell (18%), 9.841 phys (15%) (chest heavy, legs medium)
M: 12.354 spell (19%), 11.991 phys (18%) (chest heavy, waist light)
H: 16.210 spell (24%), 15.847 phys (24%) (hand medium, waist light)
Between 5m/1/1 and 5h/1/ are just 3.856 resistance.
This gap widens with max health and health recovery boni, where the latter get's reduced by vampire passives. Although medium armor grants more crit chance for bigger heals.
Dduke wrote in another thread:On top of that 6% less damage taken, you get around 5% more healing (after deducing the medium armor increased crit chance & weapon dmg from the value provided by Rapid Mending) and you get atleast 106 more health regen (which btw is almost worth more "healing" than the Rapid Mending passive if your main heal is called Vigor).
It's a combination of a lot of things that makes normal heavy armor users take around 15% (I did this calculation a while ago, can't remember the exact number) less damage/second through heals and mitigation than medium armor. This 15 becomes 30% when we compare to Legion+Fury heavy armor user.
Here it get's obvious where to issue really lies. Not in the HA passives, but in the sets. Also mind how bad dodge is atm.
A buff via a secondary dodge roll effect on 5 medium would go a long way, e.g. resistance boost and healing recieved.
Currently heals and dmg bonus are great, but take that away and you will have a relatively small incentive to even wear heavy. Is changing the meta from "heavy or bust" to "medium or bust" better than changing it to having adequat choice of two armor weights?
Why do you think light armor is in a bad spot?
It grants more crit chance than 6 medium and can therefore make good of undaunted and other armor passives.
Cost reduction and recovery boni are the same in medium and light. Recovery gets outperformed by heavy armor's constitution on normal recovery builds, if constitution procs on cooldown (what it usually does in combat). But that statement doesn't take cost reduction into account.
4.884 free spell penetration is great. This became even more important when sharpened was nerfed and 2-4p resistance boni got buffed.
Shields scaly badly when outnumbered, yes, but all the better if not focused by many or in 1v1. Block however scales very good. Heavy armor contributes to blocking soley by constitution procs and a more resistance. Dodging gets further useless with more undodgeable abilites.
You can try and run a magSorc on heavy and then compare it to light, if you think light is in a bad place.
I honestly think the problem is in part due to the size of the health bar.
I know its optimal to have a smaller health bar and higher stats instead to fuel active defence/heal strength along with offence - but the real problem is with TTK and that doesn't just mean damage output - it also means healhbar size.
When I can take someone from a fairly common 22k health to 0 in a single burst combo if they don't actively defend it - then people WILL build in tankiness - but even at 50% mitigation - its 2 burst combo's to kill. And when that same player could instantly restore half his health without using an ulti.... basically health-bars move way too quickly.
I kind of think that in all instances damage *should* overcome heals/mitigation etc.. so that when combat starts, without outside help, there is ultimately (with some ups and downs)only one direction that the health bar goes - but it should take much longer to get to the bottom imho.
I kind of think the first step (oddly) is to remove the 5k health bonus from PVP. That will instantly make people uncomfortable with the amount of health they are running - and then change their builds to divert stats from offence/healing to health. This on its own will be a step towards reducing the rate at which the healthbar moves in combat. Once that rate-of-change reduces, then healing/mitigation can be reduced without turning every fight into a 1-shot kill.
Basically with more of a 'buffer' then builds with the lowest mitigation have time to realise its going south and either change tactics or look to escape/reset. People would be more willing to play a risky offensive build if they get a chance to do some damage before their health gets dangerously low - which means seeing less of the tanky builds.
At the mo, one mis-step in an offence-based light or med build can mean almost instant death. That can't be right in a game with long travel times.
@IAVITNI you do know that most large group healers dont use bol? Healing springs gives so much more healing.
Eye of the storm change wont happen because We dont have friendly fire in this game.
As for the tanking meta whats Making int happen is prob a combination of insane heavy armour sets and block cost reduction and resources management. Main offender stam builds or pure healers.
@IAVITNI you do know that most large group healers dont use bol? Healing springs gives so much more healing.
Eye of the storm change wont happen because We dont have friendly fire in this game.
As for the tanking meta whats Making int happen is prob a combination of insane heavy armour sets and block cost reduction and resources management. Main offender stam builds or pure healers.
The burst heal of BoL makes it more efficient in small scale because the healer ratio is better. In large scale, yes springs becomes better due to the number of people. However, when you have half a 72 man zerg spamming BoL, it becomes an issue.
My main gripe is the fact that PvP is becoming a zergs fest. If you can't beat a group you recruit more and try again.
And I'm not exaggerating my numbers or compositions. PS4 NA vivec. The amount of Templar healers is insane. I have 11 toons and their builds differ greatly, which means I've fought zergs in all kinds of ways (frontal assault, route, flank, solo bait, you name it) so I know group compositions well. On average at least half of a "succesful" zerg (not necessarily coordinated group) are Templars.
Usually I don't mind because a healer won't kill you. But then you have another full zerg of tanky "dps" that are getting healed by a zerg of Templars with an auxiliary zerg of negatebots/bombers.
As a solo player the only way for me to fight this is to group up. Small scale won't cut it either, it has to be a zergs at this point.
And I can't just ignore the zerg. 72 people in 1 spot means I'm either farming resources or taking empty keeps. I want to PvP, not PvE.
These super zergs only started when the tank meta came about. Half these zergs build tanky and spam heals and the only real way to counter is to take empty keeps or run the same setup. It's not fun block casting healz until negate/destro is up and it's not fun fighting a zergs that does that either.
A nerf tank post because a nb cant oneshoot other player anymore.
Problem being - with how strong healing in this game is:
If you can´t oneshot a player on a non dot build you will never kill them if they´re not outclassed.
Oneshot meaning a burst combo of usually 3 to 5 abilities.
Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Time To Kill is way too high nowadays