Time To Kill is way too high nowadays

Ragnaroek93

It's just boring and annoying to fight for stalemates. Everything is way too tanky with heavy armor, vampire (undead is the most busted passive in the game, even tho the vampire fans will rage on me now), minor maim on everyone, capped resis (Bloodspawn is too lol since sharpened nerf), block builds which can blockcast straight for 20 minutes, shieldspam, cloakspam, restoult, snb ult, Warden tree ult... the list is endless.

Duels aren't fun anymore, Smallscale is no fun anymore, PvP is no fun anymore... it just feels like a pointless waste of time and PvP is completely dieing at the moment, many top players are just (semi-) quitting from the game. You can't punish opponents for mistakes because the meta bruiser with sword and board (ridiculous how a TANK skill line has access to the strongest debuff = major defile in the game with a SPAMMABLE stunn by the way) can just facetank almost everything. I've never seen a rpg game with such a ridiculous Time To Kill (unexperiend players who get bursted in 3 seconds excluded) and it is just sad what this game did turn into. I remember a troll post years ago from someone who suggested to remove death from PvP... we aren't far away from that now.

Not a single person who I used to play PvP with does enjoy the game in it's current state, PvP highly needs some love and improvements and not another gear gate behind PvE again...

NyassaV

At a certain point you learn to ignore tanks and keep moving

Tyrobag

You say it like pvp was ever good...

Waffennacht

I enjoy it, but then again I constantly change my build so no one thing remains a problem

Brrrofski

Hollery wrote: »

At a certain point you learn to ignore tanks and keep moving

His point is, everyone is too tanky. Good luck ignoring everyone.

technohic

I don't think "everyone" is too tanky any more than "everyone" is too bursty. Killing someone in CC is a thing. The pendulum just swings too far

Waffennacht

Brrrofski wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

At a certain point you learn to ignore tanks and keep moving

His point is, everyone is too tanky. Good luck ignoring everyone.

Defile, bleed, Oblivion Damage. Mostly defile, with CP major = 45% Healing Reduction, minor = 21% healing Reduction

Bleed goes through block, dots drain Stam. Assassin's Will for 10k (if NB) etc etc

cschwingeb14_ESO

Unfortunately, the most accessible Defile comes in a weapon line with no bleeds or DoTs. And Minor Defile only comes from poisons and Fasallas.

Agree with the OP that Minor maim is too accessible.

I'm working on a setup to kill individuals of excessively tanky/Healy groups (ie, all DK/Templar). It's tough to work around block and purge when they are put together

WreckfulAbandon

ZOS needs to destroy the damage-dealing potential of Sword n' Board (maybe make SnB reduce Wep dmg by 10% instead of increase by 5%), and reduce (not remove) the damage-dealing potential of Heavy Armor. Remove wep/spell dmg from wrath and add something decent for survival.

Sets like Seventh Legion and Ravager need to be looked at as well. Fury is fine since you have to get hit a bunch, there is counterplay. But the other 2 sets just have a basic % proc chance to turn you into a BAMF.

Point for doing these things is with these changes we will see ppl switch to light/med over heavy so they can continue to do damage. We can still have tanks in the game and ppl need to learn to deal with that. What we don't need is ppl who can block almost endlessly and still put out enough burst to kill.

DeHei

Buff medium armor and take away heavy armor for PvP. Then you dont have this tanks anymore...

Only other solution is to give BiS PvP gear like the IC imperial physics only for cyrodiil, but only in medium or light armor!

Ocelot9x

The real problem is that the most efficient way of surviving is also the less unskilled. Block block block. Add mistform to permablock and here's your cancerous cocktail. Hell,yesterday I've met a mag dk with 29k HP running with reverb bash. Long story short,h was just holding block while applying dots/some lashes while my vigor was critting for like 600. I managed to get a take flight while he was swapping bar and he just pressed one button to get a 8kheal.
PvP now is basically permablock or gtfo,I don't know why people complains about shield stacking but not for perma blocking

ezeepeezee

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ZOS needs to destroy the damage-dealing potential of Sword n' Board (maybe make SnB reduce Wep dmg by 10% instead of increase by 5%), and reduce (not remove) the damage-dealing potential of Heavy Armor. Remove wep/spell dmg from wrath and add something decent for survival.

Sets like Seventh Legion and Ravager need to be looked at as well. Fury is fine since you have to get hit a bunch, there is counterplay. But the other 2 sets just have a basic % proc chance to turn you into a BAMF.

Point for doing these things is with these changes we will see ppl switch to light/med over heavy so they can continue to do damage. We can still have tanks in the game and ppl need to learn to deal with that. What we don't need is ppl who can block almost endlessly and still put out enough burst to kill.

IDK, I mean, I'm running 7th on a Stam Sorc with DW + 2h. It would be really annoying for me if 7th got hit too hard; I would have to completely reimagine the build. I rely on mobility while wearing this armor, not permablocking.

I think the issue is more with how much it's possible to stack block cost reduction. ZOS tried and failed to reduce permablocking in PvP. They need to try again. The two big options that come to mind for me are stacking cost the longer you hold block, ala dodge roll fatigue, or removing block casting behind S&B (but this would make PvE, trials especially, practically unbeatable).

But also at issue is sets that reduce the amount of damage you take from players. Stack these with block cost reduction and voila, you can now face tank 10 players. GG. Why sets like this are in the game I may never know.

idk

Duels are far from the focus of the game.

Besides, assuming OP is not a tank talking about dueling a tank it seems to be working fine. Tanks should be able to take gobs of damage and should have issues doing good damage to another player.

That could be really long fights. Find someone other than a tank to duel.

Alpheu5

Tyrobag wrote: »

You say it like pvp was ever good...

Homestead was by far my favorite time to ever be in Cyrodiil. Now it's just a habitual visit when I don't feel like gathering red spiderwebs from grass.

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

At a certain point you learn to ignore tanks and keep moving

His point is, everyone is too tanky. Good luck ignoring everyone.

Defile, bleed, Oblivion Damage. Mostly defile, with CP major = 45% Healing Reduction, minor = 21% healing Reduction

Bleed goes through block, dots drain Stam. Assassin's Will for 10k (if NB) etc etc

While effective for Stam builds, mag players don't have the resistance ignoring powers of bleed effects. But we do have some successes:
- normal dot for Stam drain.
- hard cc from Dawnbreaker/fear
- tempars do 10% extra DMG on blocked targets. 10% extra purifying light burst which ignores block.
- ele drain for huge resist debuff.
- valkyn skoria undodgeable/unblocked burst.
- is Sorc overcharge heavy attack unblockable?
- major defile sources (disease + minor defile poisons)
- destro staff 10% armor reduction + minor mangle debuff.
- LA crit chance+penetration bonus. LA+sharp+some CP+debuff = 15280 penetration while still having 70-80% crit DMG+50% crit chance+21% master at arms+12% ele expert. Huge DMG stack.

ak_pvp

Block defile. Make block take extra damage. Don't add costs, will *** pve.
Big shield stack removal and defile.
Nerf shield ult in small situations. I.e. Automatically block for y second per every player that hit you within x seconds cap of z sec



Bloodspawn is fine.
Controversially heavy is fine too. Constitution is much weaker, most passives are just tanky stats. Wrath is needed to avoid the mess of NU heavy armour.

Med of all needs a buff.

To stop people being steamrolled, reintroduce dynamic ult with a cap of 2 ult per sec at 8 people. (every hit taken within 20s increases it, longish time so nbs can take it too) and remove All aoe caps. I.e dawnbreaker hits everyone in that area, same damage too. Whether it's 50 people or 1.

Maikon

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ZOS needs to destroy the damage-dealing potential of Sword n' Board (maybe make SnB reduce Wep dmg by 10% instead of increase by 5%), and reduce (not remove) the damage-dealing potential of Heavy Armor. Remove wep/spell dmg from wrath and add something decent for survival.

Sets like Seventh Legion and Ravager need to be looked at as well. Fury is fine since you have to get hit a bunch, there is counterplay. But the other 2 sets just have a basic % proc chance to turn you into a BAMF.

Point for doing these things is with these changes we will see ppl switch to light/med over heavy so they can continue to do damage. We can still have tanks in the game and ppl need to learn to deal with that. What we don't need is ppl who can block almost endlessly and still put out enough burst to kill.

So...... you want to give tanks even more survivability?

Even if you do change wrath they will either find another way to be tanky and have burst dmg, or it won't really affect their dmg at all.

WreckfulAbandon

Maikon wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ZOS needs to destroy the damage-dealing potential of Sword n' Board (maybe make SnB reduce Wep dmg by 10% instead of increase by 5%), and reduce (not remove) the damage-dealing potential of Heavy Armor. Remove wep/spell dmg from wrath and add something decent for survival.

Sets like Seventh Legion and Ravager need to be looked at as well. Fury is fine since you have to get hit a bunch, there is counterplay. But the other 2 sets just have a basic % proc chance to turn you into a BAMF.

Point for doing these things is with these changes we will see ppl switch to light/med over heavy so they can continue to do damage. We can still have tanks in the game and ppl need to learn to deal with that. What we don't need is ppl who can block almost endlessly and still put out enough burst to kill.

So...... you want to give tanks even more survivability?

Even if you do change wrath they will either find another way to be tanky and have burst dmg, or it won't really affect their dmg at all.

When I say "decent" I mean in a ZOS "buff" kinda way

Zer0oo

The problem is the insane burst damage and heals everyone has. Almost every can make a that build can nearly one-shot all medium and light armor. The consequence is that everyone run now a extrem tanky heavy armor around so no one is able to instant kill him/her. The same goes for heals, you can get back to full hp within seconds so if you don't almost one-shot your opponent he/she will get back to full hp in the next second.

But building for such tankyness doesn't really come with any big off trade the damage is just alittle lower and the resource management is in heavy armour is actually better than light or medium since you need less heal or protective skills and you get free secondary resources. And even if you build for full tankyness without any damage just stack enough full tanks and you can still kill someone but they can not kill you.



(Basically light and medium armor is *** and do not provide enough damage potential to outweigh the tankyness you gain by using heavy armor so you can actually kill them.)
(also blocking is way to strong)

Lucky28

Tyrobag wrote: »

You say it like pvp was ever good...

it was actually. there was a time when the only issue i had with PvP was lag. now there is just so many compiled issues it's rather ridiculous.

WuffyCerulei

Heavy armor does need some balancing. The damage part needs a looking at, but not necessarily the sustain part. Pve tanks need heavy armor to do its job. They shouln't suffer cuz of pvp tanks being too sustaining AND deal good damage.

Mystrius_Archaion

Zer0oo wrote: »

The problem is the insane burst damage and heals everyone has. Almost every can make a that build can nearly one-shot all medium and light armor. The consequence is that everyone run now a extrem tanky heavy armor around so no one is able to instant kill him/her. The same goes for heals, you can get back to full hp within seconds so if you don't almost one-shot your opponent he/she will get back to full hp in the next second.

But building for such tankyness doesn't really come with any big off trade the damage is just alittle lower and the resource management is in heavy armour is actually better than light or medium since you need less heal or protective skills and you get free secondary resources. And even if you build for full tankyness without any damage just stack enough full tank and you can still kill someone but they can not kill you.

Am I the only one that liked when TES3 Morrowind had armor skills so that no matter what armor type you picked, or even unarmored(clothing), you could invest in that skill and have it be almost as strong or just as strong as any other armor including heavy?

I think that may be the solution to our problem.
If they built the skill lines to, instead of buffing what the armor already does well, buff what the armor doesn't do well, like you get better at using it. Like heavy armor skill improves damage while wearing heavy armor and light armor improves defense and medium armor improves both so that they all end up equal and everyone can pick the look they want and focus on it. In order to differentiate between them other than looks they could make sure each one has something unique that doesn't directly benefit passive damage/survivability in the same way as the other armor's unique mechanic.

I think that would be great and smart.

IAVITNI

The current meta shift forces people to play in zergs, which effectively kills solo play. I've had people half commit to fighting me for 5 minutes, all the while they have their zerg coming to kill 1 person. The tank meta is only starting. IMO the resistance buffs to the 2-4 set bonuses was unwarranted. People were already tanky enough if they knew how to play.

Current meta in NA PS4 (Vivec) is to just win with pure numbers. Stack Negates, Remembrance and Destro Ultimates on tanky characters. It doesn't matter if each zergling only has 2k buffed spell/weapon damage when there are 72 people spamming BoL, Negate and Destros. And no. 72 is not an exaggeration. Vivec has +72 man groups swarming 1 keep.

• Remove/reduce (significantly) AoE caps
• make BoL have diminishing returns from multiple sources ( 1 BoL spammer heals for 100%, 2 heal for 150%, 3 for 175% etc) and Remembrance apply a debuff that reduces consecutive Remembrances within a short time (5-10 seconds)
• make Eye of the Storm damage allies as well.
• Reduce time to kill. Survivability should come from knowing how to counter burst, not excessively stat pools and excessive passive mitigation.

Mondini

I only pvp to RP so it seems weird to me that people would go to battle in leather and cloth. Heavy armour is fine, if anything it needs a buff

Jawasa

@IAVITNI you do know that most large group healers dont use bol? Healing springs gives so much more healing.

Eye of the storm change wont happen because We dont have friendly fire in this game.

As for the tanking meta whats Making int happen is prob a combination of insane heavy armour sets and block cost reduction and resources management. Main offender stam builds or pure healers.

Derra

Waffennacht wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

At a certain point you learn to ignore tanks and keep moving

His point is, everyone is too tanky. Good luck ignoring everyone.

Defile, bleed, Oblivion Damage. Mostly defile, with CP major = 45% Healing Reduction, minor = 21% healing Reduction

Bleed goes through block, dots drain Stam. Assassin's Will for 10k (if NB) etc etc

woodelf and argonian (most popular magica healing and most popular stamina race) are immune to the only source of major defile most builds can access (and it´s rgn based on top of that).

Derra

Mondini wrote: »

I only pvp to RP so it seems weird to me that people would go to battle in leather and cloth. Heavy armour is fine, if anything it needs a buff

it´s already better than heavy or light in every regard - why would it need a buff?

Chilly-McFreeze

People complained about being one shoted, about too high burst, about being ganked in light and medium armor. What was the reaction of this community to this?

"stop being squishy, invest in health and mitigation, wear heavy. If you build yourself totally for damage you shouldn't complain about being a glass canon."

Zer0oo wrote: »

The problem is the insane burst damage and heals everyone has. Almost every can make a that build can nearly one-shot all medium and light armor. The consequence is that everyone run now a extrem tanky heavy armor around so no one is able to instant kill him/her. The same goes for heals, you can get back to full hp within seconds so if you don't almost one-shot your opponent he/she will get back to full hp in the next second.

But building for such tankyness doesn't really come with any big off trade the damage is just alittle lower and the resource management is in heavy armour is actually better than light or medium since you need less heal or protective skills and you get free secondary resources. And even if you build for full tankyness without any damage just stack enough full tank and you can still kill someone but they can not kill you.



(Basically light and medium armor is *** and do not provide enough damage potential to outweigh the tankyness you gain by using heavy armor so you can actually kill them.)
(also blocking is way to strong)

It'd like to adress the three bolded parts.

1) That is exactly the problem. Too high damage when you wear light or medium. Nobody likes to be insta rekt.

2) Not really. If you die to a pure no-dmg tank then that's on you. I may agree on this in duels but 1v1 isn't what this game is designed around.

3) Again, no. You said yourself that damage is quite high in 1). Especially if you wear light and medium as a reciever. So the solution cannot be to increase damage even further.
And it's not "also blocking", it's mainly permablocking. Calcuation for block costs are screwed, permablocking shouldn't be a thing but it still is. Take that away and heavy will not be as "unkillable" as it is. But keep in mind that heavy armor does nothing for your block cost reduction. Sturdy, Jewelry Enchants, CP, weapon skills and passives do but HA does not.

Light and Heavy passives are fine, medium needs some love.

Approach to solve these imbalances could be:
- change block cost calculation so permablocking becomes less of an issue
- bring extreme damage HA sets down a bit without making them useless (ravager, 7th, fury etc.)
- boost defensive capabilites of medium armor (buff/ secondary effect of dodge in 5 medium)

Once these changes are implemented, people will revert to complain about shieldstacking and permadodging.

Zer0oo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

People complained about being one shoted, about too high burst, about being ganked in light and medium armor. What was the reaction of this community to this?

"stop being squishy, invest in health and mitigation, wear heavy. If you build yourself totally for damage you shouldn't complain about being a glass canon."

Zer0oo wrote: »

The problem is the insane burst damage and heals everyone has. Almost every can make a that build can nearly one-shot all medium and light armor. The consequence is that everyone run now a extrem tanky heavy armor around so no one is able to instant kill him/her. The same goes for heals, you can get back to full hp within seconds so if you don't almost one-shot your opponent he/she will get back to full hp in the next second.

But building for such tankyness doesn't really come with any big off trade the damage is just alittle lower and the resource management is in heavy armour is actually better than light or medium since you need less heal or protective skills and you get free secondary resources. And even if you build for full tankyness without any damage just stack enough full tank and you can still kill someone but they can not kill you.



(Basically light and medium armor is *** and do not provide enough damage potential to outweigh the tankyness you gain by using heavy armor so you can actually kill them.)
(also blocking is way to strong)

It'd like to adress the three bolded parts.

1) That is exactly the problem. Too high damage when you wear light or medium. Nobody likes to be insta rekt.

2) Not really. If you die to a pure no-dmg tank then that's on you. I may agree on this in duels but 1v1 isn't what this game is designed around.

3) Again, no. You said yourself that damage is quite high in 1). Especially if you wear light and medium as a reciever. So the solution cannot be to increase damage even further.
And it's not "also blocking", it's mainly permablocking. Calcuation for block costs are screwed, permablocking shouldn't be a thing but it still is. Take that away and heavy will not be as "unkillable" as it is. But keep in mind that heavy armor does nothing for your block cost reduction. Sturdy, Jewelry Enchants, CP, weapon skills and passives do but HA does not.

Light and Heavy passives are fine, medium needs some love.

Approach to solve these imbalances could be:
- change block cost calculation so permablocking becomes less of an issue
- bring extreme damage HA sets down a bit without making them useless (ravager, 7th, fury etc.)
- boost defensive capabilites of medium armor (buff/ secondary effect of dodge in 5 medium)

Once these changes are implemented, people will revert to complain about shieldstacking and permadodging.

2. I meant getting zerged by tanks(Was not really clear from my original post). I think most people just build so that no one really can kill them but they still think they can kill anything if they get support of 5-10 more of those tanks.
3. Well, playing in light or medium is still underwhelming compared to heavy. If player would get the feeling they getting more kills in light or medium they would probably change back, but right now there is no real balance between being able to kill and building for tankyness. Personally i would reduce the damage heavy armor can do and healing, they are still tanky but for damage and heals you should go medium or light.

Why is everyone thinking light armor is fine? I really do not see any point except for extrem burst damage to go light. For sustain damage heavy armor is imo superior.

Saint_Bud

A nerf tank post because a nb cant oneshoot other player anymore.

mistrija999

Only thing they should remove is dmg from trebs/cold trebs on players cuz ruins small scale when tard people/zerglings are mad on your small scale group.. for rest l2p or go non cp