Wake up people ! Transmutaion is not for lazy scrubs.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2017

Turelus wrote: »

This is what I was saying yesterday in a couple of threads.

Token systems are not a means to gear up, they are an solution to RNG issues in MMO games.

That depends on the game. Yes, they are a solution to RNG problems, but the games that have token system have mostly done away with direct drops entirely in favor of the tokens as the way to gear up.
In fact, DC Universe Online has direct drops that are actually weaker than the token purchased items.

You know one main reason they do this? There are 2 questions everyone inevitably asks at some point when grinding out dropped gear:
1) Why am I pulling a legendary weapon off a boss that doesn't even have hands to use it or a gut big enough to have eaten it without getting skewered from nose to tail?
2) Who makes these weapons in the first place that we have forgotten how to make such that we have to find the ancient leftovers that somehow aren't rusty?

It is NOT believable to have the best items be drops, let alone any weapons or armor at all.

Feanor · September 2017

Can I have a TL;DR for this thread? Still Stevil vs all others?

grannas211 · September 2017

At first I was like wow that is pretty high. But then I thought about it, I usually run at least one pledge a day and then hop into pvp or maybe run all the pledges if I feel like it. So keys will come. I didn't expect to be able to trait all 7 pieces of my armor plus weapons. I'll use them only for weapons. I don't like the cap though. Seems alittle low.

NolaArch · September 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Can I have a TL;DR for this thread? Still Stevil vs all others?

In short, yes.

STEVIL · September 2017

grannas211 wrote: »

At first I was like wow that is pretty high. But then I thought about it, I usually run at least one pledge a day and then hop into pvp or maybe run all the pledges if I feel like it. So keys will come. I didn't expect to be able to trait all 7 pieces of my armor plus weapons. I'll use them only for weapons. I don't like the cap though. Seems alittle low.

I expect the cap will continue to evolve esp if the crystal per trait swap does. Started at. 5 pieces worth, max and likely to stay.

Not much of a fan of the cap myself esp with the low cap for non ESO+ if that holds true.

As a sub since launch, I do NOT think a transmit cap is a good ESO+ benefit if that is to be a thing. If it is to be, it should be on the scale of the xp Bennie not the housing Bennie in my viewpoint.

But since you still have to collect crystals and set pieces, cap to me seems less reasonable and more like a way to prop subs.

Artis · September 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

@Artis

The reference to alchey and enchant sustain was in the section talking about writs and sustaining writs for consumables vs equip etc. Alchey and enchant drop more mats and resources/decons than they consume, especially using surveys but for alchey even without. Equip writs do not - even with surveys at the top tier levels. that was the point. Context matters or did you forget the discussion was about writs top tier and amounts of writ vouchers etc?

A stated no need for me to change your mind on there being differences between temporary promotons and long term systems adds. not a fight i choose to take on.

You are the one who forgot the context. It was always in a more general context of not getting rewards vs having options. It was not only about writ vouchers. But sure if you want to keep that line - quests drop gold which are functionally retraiting crystals for BoE gear.

STEVIL wrote: »

And on your closing retro-not-retro positioning

I am not asking for retroactivity at all and **in part** because it cannot be at all applied as i understand the game. They dont necessarily track how often i have killed dungeon monster abc or ran pledge abc and the results and so on, even if they have some generic info, while they do have the records of main line quests. So they could not reasonably and equitably payback retroactive for content run already before the change to all parties. it would not be fair to award retro-crystals for questing but not for VMA runs or pledge runs or dungeon bosses killed in the past as well.

Yes, it would be fair, because dungeons can be repeated whereas quests can not. Maybe it wouldn't be 100%, but it would be just fine. But knowing zos, they don't care. They already increased undaunted level until 9 when some of us already completed all existing dungeon achievements. And still at least we had an option to do pledges and get that exp.

What is not fair is to give you crystals for brainless pressing 1 button while locking me out of that option. See how it is? With the current implementation both of us have equal access to all sources, but you are asking for a source just for yourself. Now that's not fair.

STEVIL wrote: »

Also, they tend to not do retroactive awards, just "going forward" rewards. The only major exception i recall was mementos when they got their own sub-type off-inventory and arguably the tieing of some housing to achievements.

If they determine a way to rewards everyone for content already run , thats their call and i wont object but to me it is more ink keeping and consistent with the way they have handled new features to not do so.

My goal is to get a broader swath of the content that is played and that takes significant investment and that drops the boE gear to be included going forward under the crystal obtain while you play umbrella - specifically the content i have named.

You can champion the fight "retro-or no-retro-war" if you wish on your own or with others as you see fit but i am not and have not been a player in that skirmish and see no reason to get drawn into it with you.

That's not what it's about. It's about the fact that what you ask is in principle unfair. And your inconsistency. If you're locked out of crystals then according to your logic everyone is locked out of rewards for the content that's not their favorite. Admit it.

I will say though that the expansion of normal content obtain crystals in this patch notes plus their comments about expansion intentions is very much a good start and gives me hope that by live we can see the main body questing content covered under the "obtain while you play" umbrella.

and you might want to look up the difference between negligible amounts and "DON'T get" because one is talking about none and the other is apparently some variant of "getting some but not getting as many as i want for what i do" (which may sound to some like maybe whining oe entitlement) which are actually contradictory.

[/quote]

I know exactly what negligible means. Again, you're not someone who can teach me about it, I'm afraid. You're way too illogical to teach me even logic, let alone specific terms of science.

Still waiting for you to admit that your "logic" necessarily means that everyone is locked out of content (and its rewards) that is not their favorite content.

STEVIL wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

NolaArch wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

sigh

Except for your harpy shirt...What set is that shirt a part of?

Withered Hand! Lots on the market at this very moment, even in Sturdy!

thanks but even @Artis has already acknowledge there are reasons to want to re-trait BoE gear vs buying new ones.

besides, i bet you dont **really** see the Harpy Shirt one in sturdy for sale, right?

Sure do!! https://us.tamrieltradecentre.com/pc/Trade/Detail/190220446
It doesn't have the Harpy name in there, but it sure is the exact same thing, minus semantics.

My bad! That first one is level 31. Here it is at the CP160 level! Hope that helps clear things up!
https://us.tamrieltradecentre.com/pc/Trade/Detail/190467534

Like i said, not the Harpy Shirt in sturdy.

Oh, it is. I'm sure you're not advocating for this system to be open to questing because of a silly thing like the name "harpy" having to be attached. That would be petty and childish, for sure, and you're above that! But it's 100% the exact same set. Exact. Same. Set. Sturdy. Enjoy your shirt! If you need a spot on the 8k gold, I'm happy to lend a hand if you're on PC NA!

looking at other people's preferences where they differ from yours and just declaring them petty and childish not not at all surprising. some folks are like that.

i take a different view... and no, as stated, this was an example from back in the day when some were claiming there was no reason to re-trait BoE as a reason to justify not including BoE dropping quest content as described.

but the fact that certain staves in good traits may sell even BoE at six figures and while their worst trait flavors sell at fractions of that should show there are reasons for considering re-trait if one has crystals as an option.

i was actually glad when that red herring was dispensed with.

And there it is. Still insisting that you're locked out of something because you can't have the looks you want even though you can have the same combat power , same set and trait that you want? NOPE. Not gonna work. Either admit that then we're similarly locked out of quest rewards -and scarlet judge costume- if we don't quests, or raiding rewards - and raiding skins - or trial rewards - and trial skins- and should get it for fishing, raiding or whatever we like, or get out. That's the hypocrisy everyone except for you can see. You want to get rewards via the content of your choice, but won't admit that then it should apply to everything and everyone and not just to you.

STEVIL · September 2017

@Artis

The alchemy sustaining question was in context of writs. You may want to pretend otherwise or change the context but in doing so you invalidate the meaning. That's different from the original point being wrong.

Also
I have asked for nothing for just for myself. I am seeking to get them to expand the content that provide crystal fuel and that would apply to more than just me.

As for your choice to insist retroactive needs to be for blah blah fair, by all means take up that cause if you want. Maybe they can figure out a fair way. But its not My cause to push for retroactive crystal awards for questing, just inclusion going forward.

I see more problems than gains in retroactive rewards and do not dismiss the

If my not jumping on that bandwagon bothers you, oh well. Not my problem. I have no problem with us disagreeing retro for repeatable just because they can be run later as acceptable.

In a perfect world of fairy tales and total tracking, might be different conclusions reached.

But not for me not here not for this.

As for your inability to admit that claiming you get none and the claiming you get one are contradictory... that's between you and your math skills. To me its just amusing and enlightening.

Enjoy

Artis · September 2017

Nope, I started that analogy and that was the context all along.

And I don't care if you take up the cause, I'm not asking you to. But you saying you don't care that I'm getting locked out of those rewards makes you a hypocrite. With the current plan - both of us can get rewards from the same sources, what you ask is to give a source just for you, but not for me.

What I care about is that you have to admit what necessarily follows from your "logic".Or admit that it was wrong and you aren't locked out of anything.

STEVIL · September 2017

Artis wrote: »

Nope, I started that analogy and that was the context all along.

And I don't care if you take up the cause, I'm not asking you to. But you saying you don't care that I'm getting locked out of those rewards makes you a hypocrite. With the current plan - both of us can get rewards from the same sources, what you ask is to give a source just for you, but not for me.

What I care about is that you have to admit what necessarily follows from your "logic".Or admit that it was wrong and you aren't locked out of anything.

Is there in your mind some point at which you think repeating the same line over and over will get me to take up your position and try and argue from your POV where fair requires retro content rewards when changes are made (the norm for this game in vast cases, even when it was as big a 1T) and not doing so is illogical and hypocritical??

Not going to happen. We disagree on that point.

Like, i have said, to me retro-rewards would be unfair (cuz it cannot be done for all crystal rewarding content) and inconsistent (only very rarely done, only on small scale and not in even much bigger cases where set pieces were involved.) those are practical issues which make the perfect world retro-content rewards ideal untenable. i dont buy the repeatable would be ok wthout retro position you find reasonable if the questing got retro.

I however, dont intend to let the perfect (and lack of getting it) stand in the way of the good or better.

You go ahead and tilt at your windmill for retro-rewards. have a ball and knock yourself out. Maybe you will prove me wrong and show how its really practical.

Me, i will stick with the IMO practical, reasonable and consistent goal of getting the largest body of questing content included in the "obtain crystals while you play what you are playing anyway" fueling for transmutation when the other content gets that enabled as well. Cutting that much measurable content game play out of the transmute fuel loop when it drops rewards that can benefit from that sub-system is a good thing, IMO.

the shifts they have made so far and repeating comments about still working on the fueling content arrangements gives me some hope that this can be successful.

But we will see.

As for context, as stated before, when you take a comment made by me about writs and transition it to apply to other crafting aspects, you are responsible for the mishaps that follow, not me. You break it, you bought it. :-)

Artis · September 2017

Nope. Still what you ask for is unfair. And still not necessary.

But most importantly - you aren't locked out of crystals. The content rewarding them is available for you to do any time.

And no, that's where the thing with writs started

2b actually while the per writ rate is lower the drop rates makes up for it for enchant and esp alchemy. Something experience outside your trials would tell you. But, again, lets be clear. Master rits and writ vouchers are crafting content which drop rewards related to that content. You get into that content by crafting and its rewards are appropriate and the sub-system is as well.

Which is a false statement and consumables don't make up for gear crafting where you can get dozens and hundreds of vouchers per writ. And they drop much often than consumables too for some reason - guess I have way too many motifs.

Either way, to get them, I"d need to stop doing the content I'm doing and craft, which was the whole point of me starting this analogy on page 7 or so. That's the whole point. Another important system with fuel. ANd to get that fuel I need to do certain content. Does it mean that I'm locked out of those rewards? If you're locked out of crystals, then I'm locked out of vouchers and motifs and such, if I'm not locked out, then you aren't locked out either. So which one is it? Yes or no?

You can't answer a simple straightforward question for multiple pages already and are just avoiding the answer. You're simply being intellectually dishonest and hypocrite, that's why no one really supported you compared to the number of people calling you out. No, there's nothing consistent in what you're saying so far.

STEVIL · September 2017

@Artis

As stated earlier, not going to try and argue about your personal writ choices. A *lot* of writ results depends on the number of characters doing them and the achievements etc. i already agreed the "per master writ" voucher return is higher for the equip ones because they have higher low end and very high rare maxs.

but the big key is this, it takes a **lot** of time and effort and motifs to get those drop rate for equip crafting to anything productive on multiple characters, like say all 14.

it takes almost nothing to get all 14 maxed out onto alchey and ench.

that means one can easily get to running 14 of each of the consumes A&E daily but to get their with the 42 equips (3 lines each for 14 chars) is vastly more time and effort consuming.

Additionally, the equipment demands for A&E for master writs sustain themselves with the rewards one gets from writs. However, the equipment writs are much much harder to sustain and do not even come close to sustaining themselves at top tier level, forcing you to go out and acquire more more more to keep doing them, even on just a handful of characters, not on 14.

That was where the comment about sustaining themselves came up - the difference between A&E vs BC&W.

All of which can add up to a much better overall return rate on vouchers for an account.

But, guess what, your setup may be different. maybe your BC&E writs on 14 characters all sustain themselves too.

Dont for me?

but thats maybe how you "roll" and thats why you see so much awesome RNG drops or whatever you want to claim.

Thats all cool.

But that has nothing to do with taking a comment about writ sustainability and trying to throw it back into normal crafting uses blah blah and the trying to hang the mismatch on someone else.

But again, thats how you roll maybe.

But hey, to each his own.

Artis · September 2017

I've no idea what you're talking about. It's absolutely irrelevant to this thread. Oh, I need to make other choices to get vouchers? Well, then you need to make other choices to get crystals.

To get any vouchers I need to craft = stop doing "my" content. So am I locked out or no? If you're locked out of crystals, then I'm locked out of vouchers and motifs and such, if I'm not locked out, then you aren't locked out either. So which one is it? Yes or no?

STEVIL · September 2017

So its fine to chat about writs when it suits you but not when it doesn't.

Got it.

Enjoy.

You continue to fight for retro-fairness, i will continue to post for not excluding the large block of PVE content from the fuel for the sub-system they are adding.

We may both get our way or not.

Artis · September 2017

Enjoy what? Re-read the thread. It suits me either way, too. To get those vouchers - I need to stop doing content I want and do writs.

And you still didn't answer.

To get any vouchers I need to craft = stop doing "my" content. So am I locked out or no? If you're locked out of crystals, then I'm locked out of vouchers and motifs and such, if I'm not locked out, then you aren't locked out either. So which one is it? Yes or no?

STEVIL · September 2017

@Artis

You already have my responses to your contrivances.

Repeating them won't get responses more to your liking, i am afraid.

i still propose for the inclusion of the previously described PVE content to be included in the new sub-system for transmute that provides the unique new ability to alter their rewards. i do not support retroactive rewards for that content alone as mentioned by your because i do not buy it as fair even with the "repeatable not retroactive" angle that was put forth. Not gonna argue for marrying writ vouchers dropping from PVE quest content to the proposal, though i do have different ideas on other threads about inclusion of crafting and writ vouchers into the system in different ways.

been said before and said again now but not what you want to hear and not the way you would like me to respond but you dont get to pick other people's responses, even tho reframing them seems a definitely possible thing in some discussions.

Enjoy or not, your call.

Baconlad · September 2017

As a die hard pvper. I desperatly dislike PVE in this game...but i gotta tell you, there is good reason now for me to care to jump back into this games PVE content now. Maybe get a new grind build together for my pvp decked out toon. So i can perfect my pvp setup through the use of pve content

STEVIL · September 2017

Baconlad wrote: »

As a die hard pvper. I desperatly dislike PVE in this game...but i gotta tell you, there is good reason now for me to care to jump back into this games PVE content now. Maybe get a new grind build together for my pvp decked out toon. So i can perfect my pvp setup through the use of pve content

At this point they have said the crystal rates etc is still a WIP and there are some arguing for uptick in PvP rewards to better match up with pve play to drop rates, so it may wind up that the drop rates won't so content block skewed -
letting you choose more freely where to spend your playing time.

Artis · September 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

@Artis

You already have my responses to your contrivances.

Repeating them won't get responses more to your liking, i am afraid.

i still propose for the inclusion of the previously described PVE content to be included in the new sub-system for transmute that provides the unique new ability to alter their rewards. i do not support retroactive rewards for that content alone as mentioned by your because i do not buy it as fair even with the "repeatable not retroactive" angle that was put forth. Not gonna argue for marrying writ vouchers dropping from PVE quest content to the proposal, though i do have different ideas on other threads about inclusion of crafting and writ vouchers into the system in different ways.

been said before and said again now but not what you want to hear and not the way you would like me to respond but you dont get to pick other people's responses, even tho reframing them seems a definitely possible thing in some discussions.

Enjoy or not, your call.

Nope, still don't have a response.

To get any vouchers I need to craft = stop doing "my" content. So am I locked out or no? If you're locked out of crystals, then I'm locked out of vouchers and motifs and such, if I'm not locked out, then you aren't locked out either. So which one is it? Yes or no?

And once again, that was the only thing I asked in the previous comment, but you wrote an essay not related to this question at all.

Insandros · October 2017

Juhasow wrote: »

Some people seems still not to get it so I'll leave that here :

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The new Transmutation system is intended as a way to assist you in obtaining the trait you desire for your gear as you play, but not be the primary way to obtain it. You'll obtain Transmutation Crystals as you play the content you're already participating in, but it isn't meant to be something you get immediately. We want you to feel like you have a way to eventually get the trait you want.

It's not new way to instantly get everything in trait You want but it's an option to fight with RNG and have second option to be rewarded for effort of taking part in content if You was not lucky enough to drop things You want with perfect trait.

Yep, people thought transmutation was a way to get BiS on all their toons in a single day... poor them. i like the way it is, so you still get a shiver and second of exitement when you loot something and you get the perfect item you were after